Sunderstone's page

Interested to hear your opinions on each book if it's not too much to ask. Did you stay 1e through it all?

Without getting into too much detail, I had Ilmurea trapped in dimensionally sealed bubble underground - it didn't seem sensible to me to have the city merely moved underground where the serpentfolk could simply tunnel their way out instead of being legitimately trapped.
The trapped serpentfolk used their magic to try to survive and evolved into urdefhans. I removed all drow and other races that came after they were trapped.

Originally before I swapped out books 3 and 4, I was going more Spielberg with the Seven Spears. Basically, drop a massive spear into the earth, rinse, repeat, and after the seventh such spear, it would open up an underground shaft (probably in the center of the city) with an elevator-like mechanism that would take some time bringing the PCs that far below.

But, I'm now looking elsewhere. Despite liking the themes, setting, and meta-story this AP seems just too broken. None-the-less, this discussion was still valuable for evaluating problems in other paths but, no path is 100% perfect.

I would disagree slightly. I love the theme as well. With some effort, this is now one of my top 5. Even if I leave the middle two books in, I'm pretty sure my table would love it with some minor modifications. Ditch any conquest points btw.

Apparently, the Dark Elves are not an option anymore.

As GMs, we can make anything options. I still play 1e anyway because of the flavor of 2e as well as the setting itself. 2e seems to be altered by RL situations too much for me. I could do a major rework of 2e Golarion but I like where the setting is at in 1e.

I outlined this AP to run someday its in my top 5 with my fixes.
Whats wrong (for me)....
1) Too many factions..
2) Finding a lost city like Saventh-Yi to go find another lost city (Ilmurea) seems meh.
3) The insanity stuff in book 4 and only 3 of the dungeons in this book were worth using imho.
4) Urdefhan in general are not my taste.

My Fixes (not in a order) ...
1) Replaced all Urdefhan with Drow.
2) Keep the Red Mantis as a Rival faction, go Pathfinder society and skip the res.
3) Replaced book 3 and 4 with book 3 of the Ruins of Azlant and book 4 of Skull and Shackles (minus the feast), effectively moving the AP out to sea from the jungle and using any nearby archipelago. They can find the location of the archipelago in book 3 at the temple of the snake or Azlanti Ziggurat. I placed Ilmurea under the island of empty eyes but a gate to it works as well.

Tomb of Horrors was the first adventure I DMed, way back in the mists of time. One guy stuck his +7 sword into a certain open mouth. 'You now hold a very blunt +7 dagger'. :-)

We originally TPK'ed in one of the false entrances. Then we lost half the party in the tomb. I think 3 characters survived IIRC. I think my old crew liked to create new characters just as much as they liked playing.

I started with the legendary D&D "Pink Box" (Moldvay 1981 or so). Played some B and X series modules, then jumped to AD&D beginning with the Slaver series A1-4, S4 the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, then S1 Tomb of Horrors.
From there it was 2E, 3E/3.5, skipped 4E, and tried 5E.

I consider 3rd edition to be a renaissance for the hobby, especially with the 3rd party boom. Quality products from Goodman, Necromancer and Green Ronin off the top of my head. From there I fell for the Dungeon Mag APs which later transitioned into Pathfinder.
 
Throughout the years we also dabbled into other games like Star Frontiers (Alpha Dawn, Knight Hawks, Zebulon's. We started a mercenary corp called the Dramune Connection in a long running campaign), Gamma World, TMNT (I somehow remember playing a Weasel), Ghostbusters, and a little Star Wars.

Most of my longest running campaigns were AD&D into 2E. Like ToEE/GDQ in AD&D, Ravenloft, Planescape, and the 1991 Forgotten Realms grey box kept us busy for years. We tpk'ed halfway through the Shackled City in 3E, but it was a long running campaign regardless.

How do I build an interesting, (very) hard but not impossible encounter? This should play like an epic chapter finale. Death of multiple PCs and/or significant NPCs should be a very concrete possibility - the start of a new chapter is a good point to reroll a PC if needs be.

My players are not expert (neither am I, first time GMing) but two of them have some previous experience. I am thinking of having a minimum of one and a maximum of five NPCs join the fight as PC allies. That way each of us (at a maximum) can play an allied NPC in the fight. NPCs will probably be at a higher level than PCs and I am fine with that. Please help me build this encounter so that I don't completely mess up the balance.

Three reasons to not do this.

1) As a first-time GM, running a large encounter with multiple mobs of different types (even classes) is a lot to handle until you are more experienced. You also said only 2 players have prior experience so adding one NPC each to the other players might result in forgetting key abilities of the NPCs during this battle royal which could mean life and death.

2) Although you know your players more than I do, some might actually like their current characters. Ramping up difficulty this high for level 3-4 PCs, regardless of the allied NPCs will be deadly depending on how you handle it. If the Barghest attacks a low level PC focusing on them, Nualia's channeling or a key failed save vs Shatter on your main martial type, the Yeth Hound's fear bomb... things could go south very quickly for them.

3) Sandpoint gets raided in book 4 anyway by some iconic enemies (Giants/Dragons) and NPCs could be handled by the players. By that time they'll have half an APs worth of experience and may be able to manage better. I'd say be patient, wait for this instead.

Ultimately, you know what you like as a GM. You SHOULD have an idea what the players like, if not find out. :)
Good luck and happy gaming.

I've always been curious as to which adventures the writers have been most proud of or consider their favorite.
1E or 2E, AP chapter or adventure.

Hoping to see some of the older names too.
Thanks for your time.

See my examples in the last thread you posted in. Specifically, the villain/bad guys part. :)

Hello everyone. I'm runnning CotCT and we are in book 1. I'm back to mastering after some years of inactivity (as gm, not player).

The main diffucult I have is making the city feel alive. I'm struggling to bring out the danger of the streets, to make the trip from point A to point B a way to feel and to know the city. My last session has been underwhelming, it was just encounter 1, encounter 2, congratualation you're arrived.

Can you have some tips? Thak you very much

We could probably help more if you tell us what your group consists of, how they are connected to Korvosa (are they all Gaedren's orphans?), etc.

Beyond that, a couple of things off the top of my head.
1) Try working in your players backgrounds into the campaign, give them ties to some of the NPCs, etc. For example, maybe one of them was caught trying to steal from Orsini's manor but Vencarlo let him go. Meeting up with him later and finding out he's Batman (basicaLLy) will be more impactful. Maybe Kroft is actively looking for one of them for a previous crime. Have her show up from time to time, then have the PC or even PCs escape down an alley or sewer, etc.

Pick a few NPCs to focus on as recurring characters. Introduce them early if possible for some foreshadowing in later volumes, etc. Relationships with NPCs helps bring the city alive and helps them care more about the setting overall.

Even villains work here. You can have someone like Vreeg (Book 1) spotted beforehand from a PCs inn window dragging off someone dead (maybe even a former friend from the Lamms) into an ally. Later when they encounter Vreeg, they'll see his Zombie henchman as the same dead body he dragged off.
As another example, one of the Vampire spawn (Book 2) is spotted feeding on a nearby rooftop, as he feeds he stares at the PC(s) before disappearing into the night. Thereafter from time to time when a PC looks up towards the rooftops, or through a window, or down an alley, that Vampire spawn is there.... watching them.

All this is built over time but can make the sessions much more memorable over just being escaped orphans going from encounter to encounter.

Book 1:

Best Adventure- Souls for Smuggler's Shiv (Serpent Skull): First off, this fits in any campaign as a starting point (fantastic prelude to Skulls and Shackles btw, imagine getting rescued by the Wormwood). Great low-level monsters, some cool NPCs, and a starter dungeon all in one.

Second Best Adventure- Edge of Anarchy (Curse of the Crimson Throne): The start of this has been controversial semi-recently in the forums but it's easy to change for those offended GMs. Fantastic urban adventuring with very memorable NPCs like Burnt Offerings below.

Noteworthy Adventure- Burnt Offerings (Rise of the Runelords): This one needs no comment. Many consider this the gold standard; I agree somewhat but also disagree. From a sourcebook/adventure perspective, omg yes! That said, in both of my playthroughs of this volume, we barely met a third of the town beyond the Rusty Dragon and supply runs at Vinder's and Savah's. Everyone important knows where to find us LOL. One of my current players is an apprentice of Quink and even he comes to see us at the Inn most of the time. No fault of the adventure mind you as the party dictates the pace, but it seems overkill to me so far. Besides for the Shayliss entanglement, there's not much reason to visit other parts of the town. My players love Sandpoint but it's because of Ameiko, Hemlock (a pc is a fellow Shoanti and town guard), Quink (a player's mentor), and Shalelu (who is not even a resident).

Book 2:

Best Adventure- Seven Days to the Grave (Curse of the Crimson Throne): CoCT is by far the best of the urban campaigns (when comparing to Legacy of Thieves, Hells Rebels/Vengeance, Shattered Star, etc.) IMHO. This one has great NPCs and enemies reminiscent of Burnt Offerings among other great set pieces.

Second Best Adventure- The Skinsaw Murders (Rise of the Runerlords): The haunted Foxglove Manor is worth the price of admission alone.

Noteworthy Adventure- Curse of the Lady's Light (Shattered Star): The first low-level killer dungeon by Mike Shel IMHO, if you're like me and thinking along the lines of ToH and Mud Sorcerer.

Book 3:

Best Adventure- The Varnhold Vanishing (Kingmaker): I don't think we need an explanation here. Great mystery, awesome lore to discover, etc. They tried to repeat this in Ruins of Azlant but threw a junk ball there.

Second Best Adventure- The Hook Mountain Massacre (Rise of the Runelords): A very complete adventure. Raid an Ogre homestead, liberate an occupied Fort, save the region from an intentional disaster, etc. Solid from beginning to end.

Noteworthy Adventure- Assault on Longshadow (Ironfang Invasion): Think new and improved Book 1 of Ironfang but with options this time! Instead of a tickets for the "Fleeing Railroad", you can now prep for the invasion and win or lose the town all in your own "What If?" comic book.

Book 4:

Best Adventure- Ice Tomb of the Giant Queen (Giantslayer): Frost Giants! Undead Frost Giants! This one made me feel some vibes from "Ancient Blood" by Grant Boucher in Dungeon Magazine #20 (1989). Adding most of this into my ROTR home campaign.

Second Best Adventure- Endless Night (Second Darkness): The closest we got to D1-2: Descent into the Depths of the Earth, and D3: Vault of the Drow. A great Darklands/Underdark romp. I miss Schneider's stuff.

Noteworthy Adventure- Valley of the Brain Collectors (Iron Gods): Mike Shel is an old favorite of mine since Mud Sorcerer's Tomb (spiritual successor to Tomb of Horrors) back in Dungeon magazine. All of his work is gold IMHO. That said, in my campaigns all Mi-Gos are replaced with Illithids which fits this particular campaign well considering the old Spelljammer stuff.

Book 5:

Best Adventure- Into the Nightmare Rift (Shattered Star): Great mix of enemies, powerful dragon, and some Leng on top. Great high level adventuring and it works great in almost any campaign. I'm using most of this in place of Runelords #5 in my regular Runelords game.

Second Best Adventure- Skeletons of Scarwall (Curse of the Crimson Throne): I agree that it's Paizo's best mega-dungeon volume of any AP while still remaining relatively self-contained (You could end other campaigns with just this book with a little modification). Also, I could do without the Orcs in the beginning. Books 2 (Shel) and 4 (Leati) of Shattered Star are awesomesauce too in their own right but they feel more like the chapters they are.

Noteworthy Adventure- Rasputin Must Die (Reign of Winter): Normally, I'm against mixing my fantasy with our earth type of stuff but this AP grew on me after reading it. Plus, it's Brandon Hodge who has become a personal favorite of mine.
Honorable Mention- Prisoners of the Blight (Ironfang Invasion): Had to add this. Book 5 of any AP is usually the weakest volume for me, but this one has a solid mix of stuff that I may cannibalize into Kingmaker book 5.

Book 6:

Best Adventure- Sound of a Thousand Screams (Kingmaker): Awesome Planar adventure and a fitting endcap to the campaign.
Second Best Adventure- Shadows over Gallowspire (Carrion Crown): If Tomb of Horrors had a baby with Skeletons of Scarwall, you would get something like this. Great high-level adventuring and yeah... Hodge again.
Noteworthy Adventure- Sanctum of the Serpent God w/The Thousand Fangs Below (Serpent Skull): Both volumes are on big chapter to me. A great endcap culminating in a lost city. I hate Urdefhan, so I replaced them with Drow which scratches the old school itch.

*** I want to mention all of Tim Hitchcock's stuff is gold too. But I didn't want to go too far into honorable mentions. Kingmaker 1, Reign of Winter 3, and Iron Gods 5 off the top of my head atm.

About to start book 2 in two weeks. I may have her accompany the group to Lepidstadt (since there's nothing left for her in Ravengro), but I'm running a Clover's Crossing scenario to start a player's Paladin on the road to becoming an Anti-Paladin, so I have to try and keep her alive without being too overt about it.
Beyond that, no plans in the near future for her.

It's an interesting choice for this AP, but it does drop sharply after the first book and picks up again somewhat at the end during book 6, to answer your first question. That said, having the Medium's haunt channeling ability is a boon to survival in book 1.

I'm not too familiar with the occult book classes beyond skimming through when I got the PDF, but I think it's a cool concept overall with an archetype that can give you some of two Occult classes.
Unfortunately, it's also a diminishing investment, compared to the much more effective Medium (able to act during the haunt's surprise round is amazing), Psychic (Will of the Dead makes this class king of the Occult classes in this AP), or to a lesser extent, Spiritualist (needs the right DM and planning but could be huge).

In a similar situation, I have a player in the CC game I'm running with a Witch. It's thematically super cool when thinking about the supernatural aspects of CC. The problem is that it's been nearly useless when fighting undead.
With the exception of a single hex that works, all the remaining hexes and most of the spell list of the class don't do much vs. Undead. While the AP isn't entirely comprised of undead, a large part of it is. There are also other creatures immune to the mind affecting abilities of the Witch without getting specific and entering spoiler terrain.
He wants to switch to Cleric this week before we begin book 2 in two weeks.

Name of PC: Thrummond Grumblewolf (a.k.a. Thrum)
Race/Class/level: Dwarf Druid 2
Adventure: Burnt Offerings (Catacombs of Wrath)
Location: B4, later at the Rusty Dragon Inn.
Catalyst: Should have swiped the other way before the Tinder date with a potential screamer (Vargouille).
Story: After some bad ice breaker saving throws, kissing on the first date proved lethal later. After failing to meet for breakfast at the Rusty Dragon, the group went up to his room in time to witness poor Thrum's head detaching and attacking them in a "Oh hey guys!" moment.

Real Story: Player wasn't all in on playing a Druid to begin with and wanted to switch to a Cleric instead.

If I ever get to run Kingmaker, I'll have the PCs help found a kingdom but most of the requisite positions of power like King or Sheriff will go to the various NPCs you come across in the AP. Some of the positions like Warden could be held by a pc but not a king or something that needs to stay and/or be available to the people.

PF1.
As stated above, there are almost limitless options for just about any character concept.
The crunch of the ruleset is another plus, this might not resonate with others but it's fine for my groups. It streamlined/fixed some flaws with 3e/3.5 like skills, energy drain (iirc), etc. Grappling is still clunky though.
Additionally, it's easier to adapt other mechanics from other rules like 5e like adding a single short rest per day which has had an impact.
The setting is what you want it to be. Anything can be added or dismantled without being a huge modification.

What I don't like.
The emphasis on the tactical but that's been an issue since 3e. Feats and rules built around needing to stop and break immersion to draw a map for every room to figure out AoOs, flanking, etc.
As we get older our gaming times get a little shorter. We don't religiously play every week like we used to. Thankfully, both of my current groups are ok with skipping average encounters being mapped out. We do use maps for important encounters, boss encounters, or other encounters that might rely on a more tactical view. The rest happens in theater of the mind although I do show them room shapes/size on maps during combat to help with mental imagery.
A dungeon heavy AP (like Shattered Star for example) would take years to complete mapping every single room.

That said, I see alot of people griping about min-maxxers/optimizer. That's more of a group dynamic thing. Thankfully my groups are more about concepts. After 47 years of on and off gaming I've had one or two optimizers, some even troublesome enough to try imposing limits before the group ejected them. In my experience, these optimizing players seem to pop up more with younger players though some of my former players from the old days never outgrew it. I just tell them I don't play anymore when they ask about getting a game together.

I bought a few PF2 PDFs when it started but there's a few things I don't care for. The setting also seems to be based on a Tar Baphon blew up the world beginning (at least to me in a nutshell). Anything could be edited to suit my taste but the setting feels irrevocably changed and I prefer Golarion of old. It reminds me of the RSEs of the Forgotten Realms when every Tom, Dick, and Harry wrote a novel changing canon that was reflected in future sourcebooks that turned older books into paperweights.
Setting growth is cool, but I'd rather it be penned by our groups deeds or any creative GM tinkering. The term "in my Golarion" is key.
Smaller issues like Goblins as a starting race (don't mind the occasional player picking one, that's what the ARG is for), and some other things round it all out.
Between 5e and PF2, I'd pick 5e as better at bringing in new folks. Aside from the atrocious CR system from a DM standpoint, players have an "I win" button reducing difficulty at lower levels which makes newbies taking so much time and effort creating a character worth it. They did a great job making this hobby mainstream and approachable. The advantage/disadvantage system ends some bad luck rolling streaks which is an impressive feat, but doubling the d20 rolls is meh to me. Also the stat progression ends any thoughts I might have had on maintaining a decent enough balance to the game. 5e feels too high powered to me.

My main game is a small group of four (myself included) that recently reconnected. Two were veterans from my old days playing AD&D/2nd edition, the third is a longtime friend that joined us in the waning days of 2E D&D. We meet twice a month at one player's house.
We are a session or two from wrapping up book 1 of a heavily expanded Runelords using parts of Giantslayer weaved in, and replacing most of book 5 with "Into the Nightmare Rift" (Shattered Star 5). Book 6 will be merged with book 6 of Giantslayer as well. I'm aiming for an old school GDQ feel, maybe minus the Q.

Book 1 started with a mashup of "We be Goblins" and part 1 of the "Brinewall Legacy" (Jade Regent 1) as a Prelude insteasd of directly from the festival. In short Zantus was overdue from Magnimar bringing back butterflies for the festival, and Ameiko's pal Aldern Foxglove was supposed to hitch a ride with Zantus on his way back, so there were technically two to rescue, etc.

My 2nd group is Carrion Crown with 6 of us meeting for an extended weekend B&B meetup we do every January (we are old guildmates from World of Warcraft that have been together since launch). One of us is my player from the regular game, the others are all from different states, except one who drives in from Canada.
We tried 5e and Pathfinder. They chose Pathfinder. This is our 5th meetup.
We started CC last year and are about to begin book 2.

A week or so late to this, sorry I missed this discussion.

As for getting Thassilonian lore to the players...
My group has a Bard who is a Sandpoint native that is also Quink's apprentice. As an adventurer, the Bard goes where Brodert can't. I'll leak stuff to the player as needed, etc.

Aside from that, they know nothing about the runewell below sandpoint besides how to render it inert via a great Sense Motive roll during the encounter with Erylium. Like Bellona above, my group got distracted with Tsuto and the possibility of a larger invasion coming. Belor (back from an unsuccessful plea to Magnimar for more guards) hired them as a further push to investigate Thistletop.
I'm toying with the possibility of filling in the blanks about some Thassilonian lore via Lyrie and/or Nualia monologues providing they get the chance. Also, Erylium escaped so depending on how stuff goes, I may have him squeal something like "They are the ones that ruined the Runewell" or somesuch to Nualia before battle. However, I'm a little worried about encounter difficulty of Nualia with Erylium (I'll have Nualia without Yeth hounds if the Quasit is there regardless but it could get deadly).
My Barbarian player had some use of the masterwork Ranseur from the statue in the catacombs before selling it to Savah's Armory. Behind the scenes I'll have Savah reach out to Brodert (while they are at Thistletop) about some of its markings out of curiosity or deciding on a resale value.
That will earn some of Brodert's ire towards his apprentice when they return, the Bard PC for not at least showing him the relic they brought up from below before selling it, but I'll use this to start a discussion with them with minor emphasis on the Sihedron symbol, Sinspawn, and some insight about the Runewell. If they don't realize that the time might line up with the late unpleasantness, I'll have Brodert suggest the possibility.

Just an update, Vornn.

My regular group (that meets twice a month) is moving through Runelords atm with 4 characters with a 15 point buy. No one took an archetype and none of them are min-maxxers.
That said, the Half-orc Barbarian is a bit of a wrecking ball but also has spent a decent time in the negative hp range yet remaining functional thanks to the Diehard feat.
In some places I beefed up encounters, in other's I may have to help them. For example, they are about to hit Ripnugget's throne room next session and I'm a tad concerned about the CR. Between Ripnugget, commandos, and a warchanter things might go pear shaped, or they might be fine. For this reason, I had them meet Orik BEFORE the throne room (he came out to get some air and rethink his current situation). One of my players is a Wizard and he wanted to be from a Noble family, so I made him a bastard of House Vancaskerkin in Riddleport. Adding to his backstory, I set up that Orik was a childhood friend (the only one that accepted him as family) that hasn't been seen since the Riddleport scandal.
Last session Orik agreed to walk away, and has given up on Lyrie (which I made Orik's childhood crush that the wizard player always warned him about when they were younger). He won't help the party deal with her but I may have him sweep back in if the Ripnugget encounter goes sideways.

To summarize, my advice is... don't run an AP as written (unless you are looking to speedrun through your AP and start a new one).
If the Ripnugget encounter goes poorly, I left myself the Orik ace up my sleeve. If it goes too easy after Orik gets involved, I can have Bruthazmus come up from below to see what all the noise is about.

Plans on top of plans, but it makes it more memorable IMHO.

am i missing something, or do f6, f7, f10, f12, f13, and f14 just not have maps?

Are you talking about the Feldgrau map on p47?

Late edit* The important ones are on p50, the others are fairly standard encounters with cultists and undead (use any standard floorplan?).

I started this AP again earlier this month for a regular running home game (meeting about twice a month).

For the beginning I blended in the first part of Jade Regent's Brinewall Legacy as a prelude. I also wanted to give Zerren a larger role and add some foreshadowing before Skinsaw and vaguely connect and foreshadow Nualia.

In a nutshell, Ameiko hires the PCs find some overdue friends coming from Magnimar. Father Zantus headed down to Magnimar to pick up the crate of Butterflies from the Desnan temple there, and Ameiko's childhood friend Aldern Foxglove was to meet up with Father Zantus and journey back together. Zantus had a cart, and Ameiko lent him her horse from the old adventuring days.
The trail led to a Brinestump Marsh ambush by Rendwattle's Goblins, Aldern fled further into the swamp out of fear, leaving Zantus and the cart to get captured. Ameiko's horse bit off a goblin ear before escaping and finding it's way back to Sandpoint (which led Ameiko to hire the PCs). Aldern was later captured by Zerren to be killed and raised as a skeleton later (see below). Vorka found Aldern in the swamp and was stalking her next meal until Aldern ran into Zerren.

Some backstory to this was the inclusion of Zerren and Vorka using her entire encounter area from We Be Goblins! Zerren is a hireling of Nualia. He's been recruiting/sometimes forcing the various goblin tribes to "donate" goblins to Nualia's cause. Licktoad Chief Gutwad initially refused, so Zerren had struck a deal instead with Vorka. His job was to raise some undead to kill Gutwad and she would give him some goblins for Nualia once she became chief.
Zerren ran into a snag however, every time he raised a skeleton it would march off towards the caves (see Brinewall Legacy for details). Frustrated, Zerren leaves the swamp abandoning Aldern with Skitterfoot (the Ratling decided to pledge himself to Zerren instead of dying) in old Megus shack, which he used as a base of operations after killing Old Megus.

The group managed to help parlay with Vorka, helping her become Chief as Gutwad was headed promptly put into the stewpot for a celebratory meal for the tribe. Before the PCs left them to their chaos, Gutwad played an ace in the hole. He yelled to them that he knew that Zerren was planning something big for longshanks town (Sandpoint). The party convinced Vorka to take Gutwad as a servant instead of a meal and Gutwad revealed that the a raid was happening at that very moment by goblins assembled by Zerren for a longshanks known as just "whitehair". The player's had an Oh-shiite moment and ran for Sandpoint.
Next session they arrive to a raid already in progress.

IIRC, Shattered Star is an earlier 1e AP but I think Zen Archer has been around for awhile as well, not too familiar with the Warden archetype off the top of my head but I think that came later in one of the Ultimate books.
Important things to keep in mind are that all the 1e APs were designed for 4 PCs using a 15 point buy.
A 20 point buy seems to be the favorite after reading years of posts as well as online recruitment posts go. Additionally, if you have more than 4 players, you can see how difficulty drops without GM rebalancing. Some classes and combos are somewhat OP too, especially with extra attack features. Our Hungry Ghost Monk for example is very powerful atm, despite being played by someone completely new to the hobby. We had a Zen Archer briefly that did very well damage-wise but less so in tight quarter combat or with larger groups of enemies in melee range.

Personally, I stick with 15 point buys. My semi-regular game has 4 players and needs very light rebalancing. My annual long weekend gamer getaway has 6 players and needs a lot of rebalancing.

Some Spoilers (players beware)

This AP has moved to my top 5 from being near the bottom for years, but needs some heavy lifting on the part of the GM, IMHO.
Part of this might depends on your age. I'm a fan of the old pulp books and Tarzan movies. I also like all kinds of Jungle adventure movies, probably due to the exotic locales. The colonialism while a part of this era can be written out if you want it to be. You can turn this into an earlier "Wakanda" (as an example) with any of it's peoples trying to unify all of the Mwangi Expanse, some people like the Bekyar by force in service to their demon queen or whatnot. Replace the colonials with the most powerful faction of Mwangi people.
Or...
Discuss some things with your players before hand and tell them what the campaign focus is supposed to be despite some of the potential pitfalls. You can allow and plan for them to help free slaves, seed revoulution from time to time etc. as potential side treks, but explain that it's not the focus of the campaign and there's a deeper story here.

I wasn't a fan of this AP when it was released for more "mechanical" (for lack of a better term) reasons, despite the 1st book being so good. I originally planned for Shiv to be run as a "zero level" prelude to Skull and Shackles instead using an updated version of Goodman Games zero level rules in 3.5.

My issues with the AP were...
1) Too many factions, as well as castaways. I was looking to keep 2 or 3 castaways only as well as maybe 2 factions.
2) The City of Seven Spears discovery is kind of an ending in itself and then it's a "fooled you" kind of thing leading to another hidden city below ground. After finding one hidden city, finding another one below ground is a little bit anticlimactic,IMHO.
3) Book 4, Vaults of Madness feels like an add-on pack for Book 3 which is ok, but I'd use maybe 3 Vaults only and definitely use maybe one insanity check every few hours and only for prolonged exposure.
4) Books 5 and 6 are technically one long book cut in half by page count limits, which is perfectly fine. However, I really hate the Urdefhan. Maybe it's the semi-Hellraiser look and feel, I don't know. I just don't care for them.
In a nutshell (and slight tangent), I have a long text file replacing every Urdefhan with Drow from a fallen and exiled house (IMC, House Rasivrein) using the super useful Monster Codex. Rasivrein needs the city for a new home/base of operations and wants to try and control the serpent god and direct it to Zirkaynan later as a vengeance plot.

Overall, jungle exploration, hidden cities, cannibal savages, dangerous environments, etc. ticks a lot of boxes for high adventure. The colonialism virtually vanishes after the second book anyway. It all becomes about the exploration of hidden cities and preventing a major catastrophic event.

It's pretty generous giving 5 out of 5 for a "skeleton of an adventure".

Some of us prefer to add some personal touches, but I can see that some might not want to do the extra work.

@Dudemeister... Thanks for the response.

Just out of curiosity, what did you rate books 5 and 6 prior to your modifications?

IMHO, in some of the APs book 5s always tend to be a bit weak (although Shattered Star, Ironfang Invasion, and Kingmaker come to mind as being great). Opinions vary of course, but I'm curious to get your take as I've always liked most of your modifications in other APs.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n1gf?Adventure-Paths-End-The-part-6s-that-do- not#21

Well worth the thread Necro

Spoilers here.....

You can use Book 5 of the Shattered Star AP " Into the Nightmare Rift".
1) it has a band of Fire Giants in it. I'd replace the other Hill giants with more Fire Giants though of appropriate CRs.
2) Change Guiltspur to a long forgotten Dwarven sky citadel lost to the ages. Maybe back then a rogue Dwarven mage was experimenting with foul magic that led to opening a gate to leng? Who's to say the Demi-Lich wasn't the same Dwarven mage?
Your Dwarven players would likely be famous for finding/cleansing it and returning it to their people.
They could also defend it from Fire Giant reinforcements until a Janderhoff contingent of soldiers arrives to fortify it if you want to play out such a battle.

Dramatis Personae
1) Cole the Seer, Human Kellid Oracle of Life. Sixth son of a Sixth son believed to be cursed, dumped on the doorstep of the Pharasmin temple at Clover's Crossing before the fated night destroying the village and it's only survivor. He's haunted by that and sees "dead people". ;) Taken in by the professor for a time while they tried unsuccessfully to unravel his "mystery" and why he alone survived.
2 and 3) Halifax and Ash, Dhampir brothers. Haslifax is an Inquisitor (Kinslayer) of Pharasma that despises his nature. Ash is a (Hungry Ghost) Monk that embraces his nature and superiority. Both feared and reluctantly trained at Garvecharge, at the professor's request as well as Loren's (see PC #3) advocacy. Both exiled from Gravecharge as Ash's abilities started to manifest resulting in injuries to other students.
Halifax headed back to the professor not wanting to see his brother ever gain. It's been 20 years or so since they have seen eachother.
4) Loren, Middle-aged, semi retired Paladin of Pharasma, and former basic combat instructor at Gravecharge in Lepidstadt. A native of Clover's Crossing that trained acolytes at Gravecharge for three months or so a year. The destruction of his home town occured while he was serving at Gravecharge. Guilt follows him as well for the loss of his family. A good friend of the professor.
5) Razula, (an escaped) female elven witch of a forced coven in Irrisen. Marked and Hunted by one of the seven (See Irrisen for details). She abandoned the other two captives as well. Taken in by Niska Mvashti (RotR) for awhile until a greater Shadow was dispatched to kill her from Irrisen. Niska fought it off and decided to send her into hiding with her old friend Professor Lorrimor in Ustalav.
5) Corbina de'Stejar, female (sort of Human) Wizard (Universalist). No memories prior to teenage years when she was found in the woods near Hyannis (after escaping a certain asylum in Carrion Hill) by a traveling circus (The Crooked Kin). Placed into care with Horace Croon for awhile before "Uncle Horry" thought the professor could teach her more at Lepidstadt.

What I did...
1) Threw trust points out the window. I went with a more "Ravenlofty" approach to earn the townsfolk trust by the PCs actions instead. This earned our Monk a hefty discount when he had to repair one half of a broken Butterfly Sword (Gray Oozes are bastards to equipment) at Jorfa's Forge. She was grateful that the party minimized the damage to the town square where her forge was located.
I also changed the name of the town to Ravenhome. Ravengro was a terrible name IMHO.

2) Planned to run the Fiddler's Lament plug-in from Legendary Games (Necromancer staff) but decided against it at the last minute because it seemed too "busy".
This add-on is supposed to take place in a single night, and kind of felt like any average night encounters afterwards would be calmer. My players already noticed an escalation of encounters with Haunts, Undead, Stirges, Possessions, etc.
The add-on seemed more like a culmination with the Rebec Malevolante player as a BBEG. I did "Steal" Rufio as a Pharasmin acolyte/assistant to Father Grimburrow. My player's sort of adopted him.

3) Skipped the Burning Town Hall encounter, this would have either been too complicated tactically and taken too long, or way too quickly as beheaded are just too weak in general.

4) Omitted Father Charlatan completely (as well as his two lines in the skipping song) and ran with 4 main haunts/undead instead of 5. I put an Allip in his room instead as a party favor.
a) He didn't really fit with the other ultra-violent main antagonists.
b) His mechanics were overly complex and I didn't want to have one of my player's lose control of his character this early in the game, even temporarily.

5) Replaced any ectoplasmic encounters with Lesser Shadows from the Tome of Horrors/Fiddler's Lament plug-in.

6) Major: adjusted most of the encounters (if not all) to better challenge a six-character party.

7) Adjusted the Lopper in a cinematic sense. Gave him the creepy, high-speed tic-like gait instead of his floating/flying move.

What surprised me...
1) Kendra felt more like a footnote than a major NPC. After the will, the party was too busy with the investigations and planned encounters to have much interaction which went well regardless.
2) The party brought back some masterwork weapons and masterwork suits of studded leather as gifts for Rufio, the Sherrif, and his surviving deputies. One was killed by Gibs when two sat on watch detail as blood trails were tracked back to his house. One of the two posted deputies raced back to the town square to help with an off-camera "Restless dead" encounter distraction while the party was in Harrowstone. My players seemed to really like the NPCs.
3) Gurtis Vortch was a fantastically balanced encounter, possibly deadly to a 4 man-group.
4) The Mosswater Marauder was a fantastically weak encounter, a Let-down in it's purest form. He needed more HP as written and d4 damage per skull defeated instead of a d6.

What I would change...
1) In a melee heavy, non caster group, or a group like mine which was 50/50 Ranged/Caster to Melee/not alot of access to useful spells ratio. I'd drop a magical weapon or two earlier, BEFORE they enter Harrowstone.
Incorporeal creatures and Haunts = BAD to low level characters.
The Souls subdomain (Of Repose) was key here which our Inquisitor took. Without it my players would have likely crossed over into frustration mode as the magic weapons don't really roll in until well into entering the prison.

2) Reduce the amount of lesser restoration available so early. Between the wand and potions found, I would probably halve the number of charges in the wand. It's a tad overkill.

3) More Haunt Siphons (see #1 above). Haunts are mostly only susceptible to Positive energy.
a) Only our Paladin and Oracle could channel/LoH (yay!), Luckily we had them in our group. Other groups would be SOL. If your group is light on Positive Energy... add more Siphons!..... or die?
b) The same Paladin destroyed all the main antagonists items in the property room before they knew what they could do as they met Vesorianna after discovering them.
Alternatively, I'd have Vesorianna roam the main level instead of being anchored to doing permanent laundry, and have her meet the PCs before they find the property room.

4) Lock the west balcony entrance with a higher DC. My group rolled high enough to get in and that was their first foray into Harrowstone. Luckily, I removed the extra stirges from the mess hall during their encounter with the Piper of Illmarsh.

5) Have the Giant Stirge patrol the outside of the prison instead of tied to his location. My group had 6 characters, I added the fiendish template and buffed his HP. The group bypassed him completely.

6) The Splatter Man was a PITA encounter because all of the above and then some. On top of that I had to play him stupid because of his OP corruption touch (I'd have 3 dead melee folks if I played him right.
Additionally, having him attack and drop through a floor/wall/ceiling (even with the group getting AoOs), combined with him being incorporeal, the group being out of siphons, low on Touch of the Spirit World domain power, made this a super long, frustrating, cat and mouse game of epic proportions. I was actuually running out of spells for him.
Oh, his Summons were pathetic. Fiendish Dire Rats and a Fiendish Giant Spider later lasted less than a round. I recommend giving him back all his spells at least and reducing his touch to 3d4. Monks have d6 unarmed at this level, Splatty is no monk regardless of his level.

7) The Poltergeist encounter was creepy but weak AF. As they failed fear saves they ran straight for the exit. the slamming door haunt turned this into an "open door" nothing following them to the next time they opened the door to it being right there, oh s%+$e moment (I was also playing up the dark/unlit prison thing)

Overall great weekend for all, and they loved the campaign. So I guess I did my job. :)
Hope this summary helps anyone planning to run it.

A little thread necro...

My take on the Seugathi issue is why not turn the aura of Madness into a gaze attack instead of a continuous aura.

Thanks, I just wanted to break up all the above ground exploration within the first two chapters with a quick darklands excursion. To balance out the added length, I removed some of the filler hex encounters and transplanted the loot elsewhere. Zohir being fey was icing.
Ironfang has a heavy fey presence. Books 2 and 5 in particular. Irovetti's castle is a little too tedious with a bazillion rooms, so after the tourney and abbey they head into Prisoners of the Blight (Ironfang 5). I'd use almost all of it minus any mention of the Ironfang legion, sardonyx shard, etc.
Happy to help. :)

My version of RRR was greatly expanded as well, a few major changes.
Before I go into the changes, I should mention that I combined parts of the Ironfang Invasion AP into Kingmaker, and the module Down the Blighted Path.

The first change is that the Dancing Lady's tower lair is now Fort Ritsin from Fangs of War (Book 2 of Ironfang), and she has a much larger force.
I also wanted to add a dwarven presence to the region to add another race of allies to the fledgling kingdom later.
In a nutshell...
The Narthropple Expedition's only survivor Jubilost is looking to recruit help from the fledgling kingdom's assistance on behalf of his trade partners, the Dwarves of a far off Darklands town. The Dwarven outpost (area R) was overrun by Hargulka and his Trolls, forcing the remaining survivors to split into two groups. One group escaping into the Darklands, the other group, cut off from their kin, fled to the old abandoned elven fort (area G, see below). Their plan was to regroup and possibly seek help from the new surface kingdom they have heard rumors about through their contact and long-time trade partner, Jubilost Narthropple.
The dwarves managed to get a message to Jubilost, warning him off of meeting at their outpost, and that they were temporarily holed up at the old elven fort (area G, this site is replaced with Fort Ritsin from Fangs of War, book two of the Ironfang Invasion AP) until reinforcements were dispatched from their homeland to deal with the Trolls.
The dwarves that fled to the fort had no idea that it was occupied by the Dancing Lady and her minions. They also have no knowledge of any evil fey let alone Nyrissa or her plans for the region. Narthropple arrived too late, most of his Dwarven friends were killed (replace all the dead Cernasardo Rangers with Dwarves) and he was the only survivor of his own expedition to bring the survivors relief supplies. Narthropple wants the PCs to check the fort for survivors and drive away it’s current evil residents.
The Dwarves become a permanent ally of the kingdom (brokered by Narthropple of course) if the PCs liberate their outpost later from Hargulka as well and destroy the Dancing Lady and her agents.
*** extra notes- The Dancing Lady retains a precarious leadership role here because the Korreds and other Fey fear the Grimstalker and her Quickling, Rigg Gargadilly. She allows the Revel to continue as a reward for slaying the Dwarven refugees, as well as keeping Halk Grundlechar’s ego in check as he considers himself a "Fey Warlord".

The second large change was to be the dwarves that fled below into the darklands (Down the Blighted Path module) running into trouble with the earth fey Zohir that has taken over Firebrand's Redoubt which cuts off the dwarves from reaching their home city and getting reinforcements. In this case, it would be Hargulka's trolls just clearing the outpost for another fey commander's occupation (Zohir from the module). Basically the Dancing Lady is waiting on Zohir to further reinforce fey presence in the region. Furthermore, Rigg Gargadilly is the brother of Vashana the Swift (in Blighted Path module).
*** extra note- Down the Blighted Path skips the whole festival portion and starts when the PCs finds Erna Stoneheart alive as a prisoner of the trolls, or among the dead dwarves (possibly one of the Bone Legion reanimated dwarves). She will have a map pointing to Firebrand's Redoubt and a journal stating that the redoubt was taken and she had planned to temporarily gather the forces at the outpost (which the trolls sacked) to retake the redoubt.

Once the PC's freed Firebrand's Redoubt, the dwarves can help the fledgling kingdom as allies with the route cleared to their city below.

As a side note, I was using almost all of Ironfang #5 as well. I added a large, blighted forest to the map and I was using Arlantia as Nyrissa's younger sister helping the efforts but eventually turning on her by stealing Briar for herself to kill Nyrissa and rule in her stead. Also Rhoswen from the Fellnight Queen module (mixed with Varnhold as well), is a double agent pledged to Nyrissa but working for Arlantia, etc.
Irovetti would have a much smaller role if any, with the PCs heading to Prisoners of the Blight (Ironfang 5) after the tourney in war of the river kings to recover Briar.

Hope my tweaks give you some ideas.

I did but not necessarily as a motivation for Karzoug.
I went for a more GDQ feel for the second half (Giants and Drow from the old AD&D feel) beginning with the latter half of Runelords part 4. In a nutshell I'm combing elements of the last three Giantslayer AP volumes.

We haven't gotten that far in the campaign yet, but my plans will make Arkrhyst the White Dragon in Runelords book 5 a major "neutral" player imc.

I'm placing the Frost Giant town of Skirgaard at the base of Rimeskull (they share Rimeskull with Arkrhyst) and it's largely abandoned. Berkvildr has awakened Skirkatla to find and destroy a witch PC and her companions (long player specific backstory connected to this).
Most of the giants had already left to Xin-Shalast months ago to assist in Karzoug’s awakening. Arkrhyst was a former ally of the Frost Giant Jarl and wants to parlay with the PCs for valuable information if they agree to cleanse Skirgaard of the witch and undead giants. He knows the location of Xin-Shalast and will offer it (along with the new location of the Runeforge) to the PCs as payment as he wants Rimeskull for himself. Depending on how the PCs do at Xin-Shalast he may help them until they get too close to Volstus as he fears falling under his control.

I made Runeforge less a research library and more of an actual forge. The fire giants in the Mindspin mountains (iirc from Giantslayer 5) are the only ones who remember the ways to make Runeforged weaponry. While their ancestors were slaved to Karzoug along with other giants, the fire giants want to see how things pan out first against some of the human settlements before they commit forces. In the mean time, they have agreed to supply Karzougs forces at Xin-Shalast with arms out of fear of Volstus (BBEG of Giantslayer 6), and they were the ones that "forcibly donated" the younger dragons to the Stone Giants raid on Sandpoint to appease Volstus at the request of Mokmurian (IMC he's second in command to Volstus who truly leads the giant army). If the fire giant king sees things are going poorly for him against the PCs hew will try and negotiate with them (mostly because he also wants his red dragon companion/mount back from Volstus). He will give them a command phrase to use if they can sever Volstus' control over it. Then I'll have the red turn on Volstus and help against the army of frost giants.
I plan on using most of Book 5 of Giantslayer instead of Book 5 of Runelords.

My plans are always changing though as we get closer. Originally I was substituting Book 5 of shattered star and placing the runeforge in Guiltspur. Cadrilkasta the Blue used to be Karzoug's personal mount and knows his return is imminent. The blue does not want to return to servitude (as well as relinquish control of Guiltspur which he sees as his now), and is actively preparing to defy him upon his awakening by seeking alliances and aid from Leng.

I'm leaning to Giantslayer 5 over Shattered Star 5 still but who knows.

Good luck Ron!
I loved your entries in Ironfang Invasion and Ruins of Azlant the most. Looking forward to seeing what you do elsewhere.

I clipped some of this from an old post of mine in another thread....

Book 4) Overall, I'd shorten this book by only using 3 of the Vaults (C, G, H iirc, but keeping the vampire Gbala from E8 as a recurring villain). I'd also be changing the frequency of madness checks to once every few hours unless the PCs were doing things without a care for exposure. To me this book reads like a last minute expansion (DLC) to book 3.
Books 5 and 6) I'm not a fan of the Urdefhan in general, I replaced them all with Drow for a more D1-D3 feel. In a nutshell, Drow House Rasivrein is nearly destroyed IMC, survivors are refugees fleeing through the underdark and their house matron is well versed in ancient lore. She's looking for powerful magic (to destroy Zirnakaynen), as well as a new settlement (Ilmurea) to call home. She has also sent a large contingent to the area below Varisia looking for the another lost city, Xin-Shalast (Runelords book #6). Parts of that group are also below Guiltspur (Shattered Star book #5). It adds a sense of continuity for my version of Golarion.

I have all the Uredefhan to Drow conversions in a text file, the Monster Codex was a huge help here. If you need it, I can post it here or email it.

Other changes I made...
Book 1) Castaways and Factions. There are too many castaways along with too many factions IMHO. Keeping one or two castaways is useful for base camp duties, YMMV. Factions, I'd probably pick one for "good" so to speak and one for an "evil" rival faction.

Hope any of this helps.

Keiftu is no troll, and trying to project that on them is not cool. They asked a very valid question, and got an answer. Saying it is derailing the thread is what is going to wind up derailing the thread. Could have just not commented, and now there is a back and forth.

OR...

and Congrats to Jim. Always good to see folks from the TSR days.

Some cool ideas you have there.
Sister 1) Great idea and she could possibly be Nualia's lover and seduced into being another follower of Lamashtu.
Sister 2) Nothing wrong with the Black Arrows having female members.

The father Black Arrow angle is great....
He could have indeed fled a death sentence and wound up with the Black Arrows under an assumed name. The player could be hunting him to restore his own honor or the assumed name is something only he could possibly recognize from his past (like a nickname his father used to call him) and he might be fleeing the order himself for fear of retribution by proxy.

1) Concerning your Elf...
In my Runelords game, one of my players made an Elven Witch who was abducted as a child and brought to Irissen (your elf reminds me of this character for some reason). In my Golarion, Niska Mvashti is half-sister to Old Bedame (iirc the name of the hermit witch from Kingmaker).

I used the Irissen sourcebook for the lore and I planned to send out some creatures to track her down from time to time and culminating with the other abductee coming to kill her for abandoning her when she ran (sometime around book 4 to 5 as I was going to use some of Giantslayer Book 4 Ice Tomb of the Giant Queen, specifically Berkvildr the Night Hag). Maybe your elf is fleeing from her family which is why she's in Sandpoint to begin with. A Red Mantis coming for her would be kind of fun.

2) concerning your half-orc...
The Half-Orc is easy. He could be a bastard sired by Father Zanthus during a time when he questioned his path. This could have been a catalyst as to why he adopted Nualia, as he never knew what became of his son. Sort of a second chance to do things right. Your half-orc could have tracked him down to Sandpoint to finally meet his father.
It makes it more impactful when Zanthus dies and he finds out Nualia is sort of a sibling that has killed him.

Your Cleric/Armiger is harder to integrate for me, but I'm sure I could out something with enough time. For now, he might just be wanting to start his own order somewhere in Varisia. The hinterlands of Varisia might be remote enough to not attract unwanted attention, etc. Not an idea I would probably end up using though.

Hope some of this helps the creative juices flow for you.

There are a lot of usernames I don't see anymore, that bring about a pang of sadness when I'm reminded of them.

Do I make you sad?

I just lurk here.... in the dark....

Oh, Gas prices suck too atm. $47.26 to fill up my tank from 1/4.
Can I blame supply chain issues or is that too political for this thread?

@Dancing Wind
This law firm is in Garden City. It may be located in Nassau county but we Long Islanders consider Nassau a natural extension to Queens and NYC instead. ;)

So in the spirit of this thread and keeping with the OP...

Maybe we should petition Paizo to NOT shut down the forums, but instead petition for a new moderation team and a new Director of Community without any past experiences with former employees/subordinates.
This might have prevented some of this to begin with, and also would be cool to have more impartiality as to what's considered a debate with difference of opinions, as opposed to the current state of moderation.

On the state of problems Rysky and others might have and how to discuss them would have been a better title then.

Technically, your thread title is misrepresenting of your intentions, like click-bait with a metric crap ton of fine print apparently.

So... Apologies to you as I was mislead by the title. I will vacate the thread and run along.

It's not a personal squabble. It's my opinion of the Director of Community's heavy handedness. I'm perfectly on topic with the title of this thread.

I am on topic KC. "The state of moderation". I can't have an opinion?

To clarify, Tonya lobbied for and was given the Director of Customer Service and Community position. This was in effect a demotion for Sara. A few weeks later Sara was fired by Tonya. I quit when she was fired.

That's actually pretty damn crappy. Cheers for standing up despite the consequences of losing work. Hope you both land safely somewhere more employee friendly.

Sarcasm is easy to convey online , as is Snark. It's only hard to understand or see if it's someone that disagrees with certain points you may have.
At least that's par for these forums.

Shivok, that's how things work here apparently. I'm not one of the consensus btw.

Kudos Paizo. A good beginning!

Skeld wrote:

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

Removed a baiting post regarding posting policies, posts equating like behaviour to stalking, personally harassing posts, and a few other posts that were spam.

You say "baiting," I say "snarky humor." Then again, I'm not the one with banning powers.

-Skeld

You are absolutely right, and in a different thread, I could definitely go with snarky humor. In a thread about moderation, asking for better protections for the community, especially our trans members, it came across as combative and adding to the fire, hence the removal for baiting.

Maybe that should be an actual addendum in the community guidelines then.

"Snark or sarcasm is only allowed up to a certain point in any specific thread until Paizo (reserving the right) deems it excessive and becomes free to drop a banhammer on your collective heads".