Im heavily considering using the shadowrun setting (from the game shadowrun) using starfinder for the rules. Much of it works as is (minus races) but need a good orc and troll race (the pathfinder orcs might work fine but the trolls will not, they'd be more akin to ogres statistically). So that's something. Need to look over the hacking rules for that as well as some of the magic stuff to see if there's anything I feel needs imported or tacked on. Most likely I won't though. Might need some new themes or some new flavoring of classes but otherwise I think it'll be an interesting thing to try.

So here's my conundrum, How would you go about using the Pathfinder rules in a modern fantasy setting (say in the US today) or a scifi future game? I know there are other options for these, I'm just looking at what can be done using the Pathfinder rules.

Wake of the Watcher

So I've been running the ap and we just finished wake of the watcher. I've been crafting these cheap and easy to make cardboard "tiles" using techniques I learned on YouTube from some really awesome guys. Anyway I created mostly to scale maps for broken moon and wake of the watcher so far and I thought I'd share so e of this here:

Broken Moon

Stewart Perkins wrote:

Had a death finally after MANY close calls.

Name: Sergei Steeljaw
Race: Human
Classes/levels: Level 9 fighter
Adventure: wake of the watcher
Location: undidmede house
Catalyst: Albor Voltiaro

** spoiler omitted **

Funny story about Vrood ** spoiler omitted **

Whoa, that item does 14 con damage on a failed save?

Edit: looked it up that is fricken nasty.

Technically it can do more.

Had a death finally after MANY close calls.

Name: Sergei Steeljaw
Race: Human
Classes/levels: Level 9 fighter
Adventure: wake of the watcher
Location: undidmede house
Catalyst: Albor Voltiaro

Funny story about Vrood

My party is 3/4ths of the way through wake of the watcher. Due to player attendance being somewhat of an issue, they all have taken leadership at 7th level (they are 10th now). The cohorts are more like sidekicks/important npcs.

My group consists of

• Vachenda cleric of Iomedae and her cohort, her brother kenstato paladin of Iomedae.
  
• Sergei Steeljaw, Ulfen dual wielding mercenary and his companion kassandra the tiefiling rogue
  
• Variel the elven wizard and his bodyguard the elven archer yolandara
  
• Argus the sly, burglar extraordinaire and his adopted sister Amelia the fiend blooded sorcerer.
  

On average we have one missing player every other session, so the cohorts pick up the slack. I think they would have tpkd without them. Even still I have killed a few of them.

I would love a timeline like this for pretty much the whole thing... I think it'd be neat to have a good timeline that says when all the stuffs supposed to happen and roughly when the adventures start and such :P Awesome work

Ya know, I love Paizo and I hope this AP is super popular, super successful and I wish nothing but the best, but ...

Personally, this is the first AP that holds literally no interest for me. Sure, I loved Expedition to the Barrier Peaks when I was a kid, but I just have no interest in lasers, robots or space ships in my game. Heck, in my version of Golarian, Numeria does not even exist at all.

Don't get me wrong - if we're playing a Start Trek, Star Wars, Gamma World etc RPG, then sure! Bring on the robots and lasers! But in my D&D/fantasy game? Nope, not for me. Sadly, I think this will be the first AP that I will have 0 interest in playing in.

Like I said though, more power to Paizo for doing this AP and I really do wish nothing but the best to them on this. I'm just personally not even a little excited about it (or the supplimental material, including maybe even the Numeria-centric Bestiary that might be on the horizon :(

I am in no way trying to be mean or call you out, but rather I have a suggestion. You said you have no interest because it's fantasy, but why not run it AS Gamma World ish, or something akin to Thundarr the Barbarian? just a suggestion as to how you could potentially get use of the AP...

I won't lie, the idea that this is the first real outing for the Mythic rules makes me want to own this for no other reason than having something to eyeball for recources.

My recommendatio if you still wanted to do this was to pull the d20 revised ruleset out and update to Pathfinder. Just drop the vit/wnds system to regular hp, and then do as suggested give Jedi a version of Ki to do their abilities in place of Vitslity cost. That seems like itd be easiest to me.

After discussion She is intending to run an AP. Now it comes down to deciding the AP.

SeaBiscuit01 wrote:

Damn it I hope the gay iconic is either Valeros or Ezren they are both so hot!

Valeros being gay would disappoint everyone who was relationshipping him with Imrijka.

My vote is for Sajan or Ezren.

I vaguely remember speculation it was Ezran, but that was from unofficial discussions ages ago.

Interesting thoughts, just as a curiosity, are any of the PF rules APs concisely tied together enough to warrant running 2 or 3 as a mini campaign? just for options sake?

Hello all! As the post states I'm looking at Pathfinder adventure options that are good for a starting to DM to run. I'm thinking good low level adventures that are fun and easy to run. More precisely maybe a 2-3 adventure set that builds into one longer arc (but not as long as an AP). Thoughts and or suggestions? (As a side note these are not for me but someone who is interested in running a game). Thanks!

Never thought of Lyrie. Most likely though she won't survive my group. Inventing someone is probably most likely but my players were interested in someone who actually had some attachment to the campaign.

So here's the dilemma, My party lacks an arcane spellcaster. One of my pcs plans on hiring one to accompany them, with the intent to eventually take them as a cohort with leadership. Other than the Bard Amekio, are there any other spellcasters that appear in the campaign who arent evil and villany?

This is what I am currently running with based on what the pcs are making:

"During the Swallowtail festival, like the townsfolk themselves, you found yourselves assaulted by a horde of goblins. You rose to the towns’ defense and killed many goblins that day earning the shared title of the “Heroes of Sandpoint”. After the initial raid you found yourselves employed by a wealthy nobleman named Aldern Foxglove. Foxglove paid you well to safely escort him to the city of Magnimar. During the trip he made it no secret his attraction to the lovely varisian dancer that was a member of your troupe, but was thankfully well behaved. Upon your return trip you found Shelelu an elven ranger you met during the festival. She was camped upon the side of the road and wounded heavily. She filled you in that she was hunting some of the goblins that had attacked Sandpoint and had stumbled into quite a mess of them. You helped patch her up and the five of you assaulted the camp leaving none alive. Upon your return to Sandpoint Sherriff Hemlock explained what the other heroes had learned. He told you of Tsuto Kajutsu kidnapping his sister and murdering his father, of the unholy tunnels beneath the town, of the mad Aasimar Nualia and her plan to lead hundreds of goblins in an effort to destroy the city and their base in Thistletop. Worse yet, you learned that no one has heard from the other heroes in days and the worst is feared. The five of you (including Shelelu) set out to finish these goblins at their source, the dreaded Thistletop. "

This explains what they have been up to during the few weeks that the "other party" were adventuring.

So as it says, had a tpk from a combination of not knowing to rest and lack of party balance. Question is, Should we start over at level 1 and do the whole thing again (level 2 at thistletop) or should we work in the new pcs and leave the other stuff as it happened? If I take the second approach then that leaves the Aldern Question unanswered (who he obsesses over and why)... Thoughts?

Looks like I'm "stuck" with a +8 total.

Attempt #1

1)3d6 ⇒ (4, 5, 2) = 11
2)3d6 ⇒ (3, 4, 2) = 9
3)3d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 2) = 12
4)3d6 ⇒ (6, 5, 4) = 15
5)3d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 6) = 18
6)3d6 ⇒ (2, 5, 5) = 12

Have you considered Darkmoon Vale in Andoran? There is a Campaign Setting/Chronicles guide to it, plus a number of modules take place in/nearby the place. (Some of the stuff is from 3.5.)

Hadn't thought of there. I have run the Carnival of Tears but otherwise know nothing of the area. I will have to look into that. Thanks!

The demilich:
Sounds like a stage in the evolution of a lich. Fluff wise it sounds more like a template to add to a lich. It's death effect seems a bit OP'd for it's CR.

The demilich is quite powerful and an evolution of a Lich. They have been in D&D as long as most of the game (Tomb of Horrors anyone?) and were some of the meanest possible opponents. The fact that they have a few kill effects is nothing compared to their forebearer builds. In OD&D they could basically obliterate a party of anylevel, no saves... They've always been nasty and this demilich is even less nasty overall than the 3.5 one (roughly the same CR). They are not oppenents for the weak of heart :)

*Edit* If this sounded like an attack, I apologize as it is not meant that way. I was more meaning it to inform you that the creature isn't new but a VERY old and well known one, and the lethality is well known as well.

I want to place an upcoming game in a somewhat detailed small town area. Something unfamiliar to players of APs however. I was thinking something in the tones of Greyhawk or the like where a few adventurers would be big news, and small troubles are what adventurers excel at... Any suggestions?

As an alternate take on my other ideas, I was considering looking at converting this to 2e. Anyone tried this or have some ideas for it?

As the title suggests, could Shackled City work as a Planescape game (from the beggining) and what would need changed to accomodate?

A small addition: the dschins of the islamic traditions, from which efreets are the ones with the most destructive urges, are originally invisible, living in something like the etherial plane, but can see and interact with our world quite easy, what makes it dangerous to seek contact with them.

Under this premis the arrival of the efreeti army in London would cause untold damage and havoc, but most people wouldn't see or know the cause. The PCs, touched be the magic of the scroll of Kakishon, would literal be the only people capable to see the truth. This would explain, why no army would be massed against the house of the beast and put the PCs in the roll to save the world as no other could possible do it.

Hmm nice addition to consider

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

The hysteria on this comes straight from people with no stake in the company at all.

Hysteria. You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Brand Strategy A: A rising tide lifts all ships, we are keeping our system as open as possible to bring as many players into gaming as possible, because we will make our money by putting out quality modules that people will enjoy playing, but will have to replace once used. This will give us a continual profit stream as long as we can keep people playing and bring new people in.

Brand Strategy B: If we control and consolidate the gaming market, as the dominant brand more gaming dollars will come to us.

Which strategy is in my best interests, as a consumer?

So which system should I support. Which system is better for the industry as a whole? Frankly, which is the more sustainable model.

I'm not being hysterical, I'm being logical.

If Paizo changes, I'll abandon them as well. Don't support the label, support the strategy behind it.

Nothing I've read has changed my perception that WoTC is more focused on market takeover rather than market growth. If anything, the language they are using reinforces it.

While I agree Wotc's strategy is probably somewhere in the woods of "Dominate the market and make lots of monies" I don't think it's quite the way you think it is.

Wotc has said that Adventures aren't their thing. You see Adventure modules as a construct are generally bought by one audience (GMs/DMs) and are single use for the most part (particularly in the past). To a company the size of Wizards, that money is tiny compared to rulebooks that lots of players will buy. Hence their switch in strategy.

Paizo was a "module" company before a rules company. They made adventures and little tidbits for a living (as well as being a store). So when the change happened they realized they could make the adventure module format work longterm and they did so by revolutionizing it as a construct. They added stuff for players, and fiction, and the like so that suddenly people other than just dms/gms would buy them to read through them.

Both of these are just evolutions of business strategy rather than a "screw x group over" mustache-twirling evil. Both companies want to make money and both are filled with employees that want to make games for a living. Granted there were/are corporate execs at wizards that were the probable cause for some of the pr mishaps that occured, but when you are a subsidary of a corporation as big as hasbro, that is just something that should be assumed. Paizo is still a small enough company that they have no real overmaster that just wants money, but a cew who enjoys her job and the business (presumably from things she's said, I cannot quote her) that changes alot of the perception a company can give off alone.

Good Stuff

Interesteing Ideas. I will think on them and respond later. :P

So as the thread states, I was considering this as a future project and wanted to get some ideas and feedback. I was thinking a different system (Savage Worlds and Cine Uni come to mind) but that isn't what I want to discuss (yet). I was looking at ways to keep the majority of the story and ideas in tact but play it more pulp 20s-40s and all that. Ideas?

Honestly I would love to see a Massive (and probably expensive but I can hope itd be cheap) Tome of Heroes or something that was a collection of all the published classes and options for character building and errataed and finished etc. So all my fighter options in one place, etc, all the feats in one place. Then a Gear book that combines all the published gear and magic items. Finally a Massive Tome of Horrors style deal with every published monster, all made sure they are up to mm3 standards. That would be the most amazing thing. Never going to happen, but we aren't talking expectations, were talking desires here :P

See the thing with the APs is this, in my experience running most of them so far (I said run not finish) they end in a TPK by book 3 for my group. It's almost universally a well organized villian and poorly thought out and reckless actions from the pcs. Also sometimes they will defy sanity and do something that makes no sense and succeed, the dice can do wonders and horrors it seems.

The thing that I learned from this, is even had it been playtested to the moon and back, my party would never have worked as is anyway. They win fights they have no business being in, but lose what seem to be easy encounters. Giants thrashed them regularly, but cool specialized bosses were cakewalks. Balance becomes a non issue at that point and I have to guage it myself. The thing I realized about the APs are that while the Stories are amazing, If I want to use them I almost need to drop the stats out and rework the encounters myself with the originals as inspiration or guidelines because my group will not play in a way that makes the aps encounter balanced on either side....

When I first got my issue of Burnt Offerings, I almost dropped out. The sin magic angle stank so badly of christianity, I was waiting to find out there was single over diety, with maybe a few worshipable saints. I' very glad I gave it a try.

First time I ran RotRl we didn't get to any mention of sin magic, which is good, as it just seems hokey to me. I like the above idea of reskinning it, though I'm worried my players will see through it. Probably not as big of a deal as I'm making out of it...

See we had the opposite reaction. My group is a mixture of backgrounds but we all knew the the same base reference for the sin magic which gave them something thy could identify as bad to work against. It played to their player knowledge at how depraved the Thasilonians must have been...

Among my friends and fellow PF players, Cheliax is always the biggest debate. Nobody is sure what it is exactly...so maybe it's not based on anything real. It's size and power would say it's France or Rome, but neither one was able to hold onto about half of itself after a ruinous revolution that turned so bad. Italy has been mentioned, but other than the names and the culture, not so much. It could be fictionalize pre-WW2 Germany, but Germany's influence in that era was never this broad, and there's no genocide going on that we know of in Cheliax.

Here's the thing on Cheliax. They WOULD have collapsed after the revolution, except the help of outsiders. Think about it, had Rome or France made nice with a devil of massive power they could have saved their empire, for the worse. This is how I see them, a vision of what could have been for ill and good had they been able to pick up the pieces via powerful magic or backing.

Just a thought, Has anyone figured out a table that says at X level a pc should have a +x weapon, at X level they should get a +x stat item, at X level they should get a +x saves? I think that would fundamentally help me.

EDIT: Almost forgot. I am tempted in a throwback to old school to allow Gestalt characters at level 1 only, but costing them double xp to level. They also couldn't multiclass unless it was a prestige class, but they still took the double xp cost and only got 1 prestige level. I like the idea as a way to sort of throwback to multiclass/dualclassing of earlier editions.

Well as of right now I'm looking at non god heroes, just men being BA and all that. I will definately look at the New Argonauts setting (I have before but its been forever and I forgot it existed). I'm thinking I like the blessings idea for the untyped bonuses and good call on limiting spellcasters to Oracles and Witches and the like. Maybe even sorcerers with no standard wizards...

I'm considering Allowing only Oracle, Witch, and Sorcerer (possibly Summoner) and maybe Inquisitor as casters. I'm unsure as of yet on the Cleric itself. Though a less warrior priest maybe allowed. Paladins will become chosen or champions of a god.

Also I'm considering giving full spell progression of Wizard/Cleric to the aforementioned casters, but cutting ALOT of spells and making many into rituals...

Ideally The game I would homebrew would be Pathfinder with human only
The classes as of now would be

• Barbarian
• Bard(sans spellcasting but gain sneak attack)
• Cleric (no armor casting?)
• FIghter
• Monk (Martial Artist Archetype only)
• Paladin (Champion)
• Ranger
• Rogue
• Sorcerer
• Cavalier
• Oracle
• Summoner
• Witch

There would be Light and medium armor only, and no Xbows (only long and short bows)

At appropriate levels characters would recieve enhancement bonuses to attack and damage, abilities, and saves as Blessings for becoming heroes. These would replace magic items. Magic items would be needed to overcome DR magic and would still have abilities such as flaming and spellstoring or whatever.

These are my basic thoughts.

Touch Attacks and Touch AC are my biggest beef with 3.x (and PF). You wanna talk martial/caster divide? I think this is part fo where it sits. What's the biggest nerf to a caster? his attack roll, but to balance this they added an easier ac for him to hit. Take that away and suddenly Casters who use touch spells stop hitting all the time. They lose effectiveness big time, when their spells can't land. The Touch ac makes some sense but just hurts the fighter and melee guys making them attack the monsters 30+ac while the mage hits the 11 touch. It gets rediculous at high levels when the mage never misses but the fighters can barely hit. I say either use the suggestion up thread and make them all reflex saves or just plain do away with touch like the old days... One AC to rule them all!

My other thought would be remove extra attacks for added dice, like star wars saga in a way... being able to swing as a standard action or charge and do the same amount of damage as our new full attack makes melee better.

This is something we've thought about doing a Sneak Attack Press, through it's probably a ways off if it were to ever happen. If it did it would most likely either be a "Fallout" of "Thunder the Barbarian" style post apocalypse.

This is what I would want from a post apocalyptic game...

So I was considering doing a low magic, clash of the titans esque game (It will take inspiration from the Harryhausen movies of old, Sinbad, Jason and the Argonauts et all)

Originally I was tempted to use a retroclone or one of my older editions (either RC or 2e is what I know and own). Having seriously considered my players I have decided to perhaps use pathfinder since it's the current game of choice everyone has books for and all that.

I'm considering a slimmed down Pathfinder ruleset, with Humans only, and only a few classes. Fighter, Mage, Rogue, Cleric for sure... Oracle, and maybe the martial artist monk (alot of grappler types in greek mythology). Any other good suggestions for classes allowable? Also has anyone already wrote up the Greek Gods for pathfinder?

Also on a rules side, what armor and weapons are appropriate and what aren't, as well as any spells to cut out or tone down.

I'm also considering untyped Bonuses in place of magic items, so that all magic items are artifacts of heroes or the gods rather than just a +x sword or whatever. Thoughts?

Also, any idea on a homebrew Vedalken race? I'm thinking something along the lines (ability score bonus) +2 Intelligence; +2 Dex or +2 Strength due to their proficiency with Magic and their 4 sets of hands.

I would take a look at the Thri-kreen from Darksun. They are bug men (if you didn't know, I assume you do) with 4 arms. I think using them as a baseline is a good start to emulate since they already have facets of your design done.

Thrikreen had +2 dex; +2 Str or wis
Multiple Arms: Once per turn, you can draw or sheathe a weapon (or retrieve or stow an item stored on your person) as a free action instead of a minor action.

They also had a torpor ability (like trance from eladrin), 7 square move, low-light, Always considered to have a running start for jumps, +2 athletics and nature, And a claw encounter power that targeted 1,2 or 3 enemies and did d8+wis (+1 for each target) that increased bya d8 each tier.

Of those, I think the Multiple Arms really works well and the stats you had ideally are good.

I will mull over your idea and come back to it. There's good ideas here but at a casual glance I think I disagree with the idea of tying power sources to colors, but at the same time It seems good solid logic. I will say that I would feel more towards Essentially creating the characters (reskinning many) as the characters that appeared in the set and then allowing the pcs to kind of pick their allegiance to the color scheme almost as if it were alignment.

Actually it seems like it would be fun excersice in setting your needed characters up (a list of the various npcs, monsters, minions, etc from the setting maybe even the cards for the basis) and then finding the closest existing monsters to reskin as the various characters. Then make the ones you feel are needed to be made from scratch. Then after thats all done look at what power sources were the most useful to do which colors... I think it'd be nifty.

(As I further thought I would go with martial being white as a color, due to the colors theme of militant soldiers and rallying warcries. White as a color in 4e would be a mix of divine/martial. That's me. I'd also advocate for black being shadow/divine. Blue being arcane/Psionic. Red is Primal/Martial. Green is Primal/divine/Martial. YMMV)

*Edit: to further clarify the thought I had I would use this as a guideline for the themes and builds of characters who fell under the groupings. So a red guild for instance would have primal and martial characters, preffering barbarians and goblins in their mix or some such. I definately would make the races naturally inclined to their corresponding magic color but as the game taught us, they can exist in multiple colors and opposite colors too. Also I would use color as more alignment rather than power source, but would use it as inspiritation for the kinds of abilities those so aligned get. Black aligned would get lifedrain abilities, red would get damage spells and attack buffs, white would get healing and defensive buffs, blue would get controller abilities and action denial, green would get magic item nullification and temporary self buffs... etc...

See with any game 3pp gets a bad stigma thanks to the glut in early 3e and munchkins (aren't we all?) So we have to value and judge everything for balance and the DMs in my area (self included) are more likely to say no to 3pp stuff not due to the credits or company, but because we don't have the time to look over one prestige class/Archetype/Feat/Spell/ParagonPath/Epic Destiny, etc. for 4e or PF. Honestly the group consensus has been a pretty poor reception of both the Magus and the Gunslinger from Paizo themselves... finding the classes too powerful at early levels (for us YMMV) and unnattractive at higher levels in some cases. But that's our group, and your group probably sees a completely different dynamic than that.

Also I am more inclined to buy 3pp stuff that I have looked at and checked out than unknown. Tha fact that it is unknown is the issue with 3pp, but thanks to d20pfsrd I can browse alot of the 3pp stuff for pathfinder and choose any that fall in what me and my group find to be our balance* and purchase those items. 4e I agree is an easy enough system to handwaive and balance yourself, pathfinder is much more complicated to the casual fan.

*What we find to be balanced and good design is not necessarily the same universally as anyone else, including designers. As I mentioned members of my group found the Magus and the Gunslinger to be broken in some ways

Blazej wrote:

With the regulated PvP system presented, I can't tell how often it would happen that a character is killed in a safe city. I'm not certain how aggressive and significant PvP will be outside of safe towns. If I walk out of town to collect mushrooms, will my character's death be certain? I'm not even certain what the game will be shooting for in these areas. I don't know how much punishment death will be in the game so I can't even say how much death will be too much for me.

I think that it is something that not even the Developers know. They can have an opinion on how often it will happen, but the population density will make a lot of difference.

Another think that will make a strong difference is the existence and quantity of choke points.

To make an example:
If the safe area is approximately circular and the player can leave it in any direction and any direction offer equally interesting opportunities the people seeking targets will have some difficulty in finding them.
On the other hand if there are only 4 road leaving a safe area it will become easy to block them and to amass a relatively high number of characters ready to kill everyone that try to leave the safe area.

Similarly if one direction is "location of the first mid level quest" and the other is "featureless plain" you can be sure that you would have a cluster of killers ready to attack anyone that leave for the first mid level quest, while the other route will be way less dangerous.

Hopefully the developers will not institute choke points as a way to increase "interaction" as in reality they make easier to grief weak targets.

When Age of Conan first came out this was an issue you would see heavily. or at least I did). The very first open PVP area (game has zones of non consensual pvp or did) was one of the first dungeons outside of the city. The issue was simple, there was ONE entrance/exit in a small room and if you died, that was also the respawn spot. The normality became these groups of 7 or more 20th level rangers (max for the area I think) who would stealth in the room and bombard anyone who spawned/entered. They would open with a pinning shot move that rooted you in place and then just waylaid you. As soon as you respawned they would do it again. There was nothing to gain out of this, just their amusement at your expense.

These are the things that make me upset in pvp games.

When I said Modern in philosophy, I meant it strictly in the philosophy of the game. DDI actually wasn't even in my area of discussion. What I mean is this, 4e is "modern" as a game, as it takes the concept of "Yes, but" to heart. Making the game much more of a cooperative storytelling. You want some crazy character idea? Here's how we can make it work. Earlier editions were very firm in their understanding of the line between DM and player.
Furthermore the game seeks the modern philosophies of time managemant and accesibility. The game is easier to understand out of the box for someone just picking it up, and it is easy to run. It's intended to access the desires of the modern gamer by identifying what they want out of a game. As has been stated you can agree or disagree on how well it achieved this as that is subjective, but it is a modern approach.

As for the speed and quickness of crafting encounters for 3.5/PF, it varies on the experience of the person writing the stats and the complication. I can easily throw together an(insert almost any humanoid race from MM) fighter at any CR because I know to ignore the unimportant. If anything it's something I've learned over the years as I progressed through various systems. Need a level 20 drow wizard? Just grab the important stuff like stats, saves, hp, ac, gear, and spells (important ones like defenses). I didn't learn this from a book, I learned it playing. However 4e is the first version of D&D that specifically says "if it doesn't matter ignore it" which is a modern, evolved philosophy of gaming. (To be fair I played a fair amount of 1e and 2e and basic this way, using stat blocks like "4 lizardfolk, HD 4, Ac 4, Atk #1, Spear (d8), Saves F4" It wasn't explicitly stated to do that, but it was taught to me over time. I never felt entirely comfortable doing that in 3e(or PF) due to cmb, cmd, feats, dex for initiative ties, etc. in 4e I need HP, defenses, the attack and damage and any nifty notes on abils and Im golden for a fight) As always YMWV, results are probably not typical, and if it itches see a doctor after 3 days. Thanks!

I will say that 4e is modern, not because of math but because of the direction and philosophy of the game as a whole. YMMV, opinions and all that. I feel like I've talked in circles with a few of you essentially dismissing me as whiny and entitled for liking 4e (despite the fact that I play Pathfinder and just about any other game). As such I will say this on the matter as my final thought. I like where 4e is currently and do not wish for it to take a step backwards. I feel like those are bad goals and that if you want an experience like OD&D then play that. Different strokes and all that. Enjoy whatever game you like, and I hope you have fun hiding in the closet from kobolds, I'm going to go clobber some god-spawn...

Um, sure. So, basically, you want to plan when your character dies, to ensure it's at the most dramatic moment. Cool.

I want to play a game. That uses dice. That generate random numbers that dictate the success or failure of my character's endeavors. And, sometimes the underdog does get a lucky shot in. It happens.

See now your completely changing what I said. I want awesome deaths not "the cat killed me" I'm not GRR Martin, and me and him have different expectations for heroes.... If I want pointless death I'll watch the news.

What I don't want to play is The Iliad. It isn't drama created, it's drama planned. By saying it is only appropriate for character death in situation "a", and not situation "b", you're telling me you don't want to play a game. See, I like a little suspense in my games. And, to me, that suspense is created by the unknown (fate, i.e. the dice).

the Dice are still there, I almost had a death in my game last night, it still happens. It just doesn't have to be pointless or so random no one knows what happened.

Personally, I feel like I've accomplished more (and created a better story) if I know my character managed to survive through a combination of good play and luck rather than a bunch of DM fiat perpetrated in the name of "story". There's no real dramatic tension if you have plot immunity from "mooks".

I find no dramatic tension if the protaganists (aka PCs) are killed by mooks all the time and the cast rotates. You end up with a recreation of Lost, where no one knows what the f is happening or why they are doing anything. Not cool. Here we disagree it seems.

If you don't want to die at the hands of a random peasant or some mooks, why even have them in the game? Just remove them all together. Or hand wave the encounters. Otherwise the whole dice rolling part is just an illusion, there is no real purpose if there's no chance of a random "non-heroic" death occurring. Seems kind of pointless to me.

Anyway, again, YYMV and all that. I just don't see the point of playing a game where the outcome is predetermined and the dice only mean something if the encounter is properly dramatic or heroic.

Well those random peasants? Basically no stats, and mooks? minions. Welcome to 4e which lets you be awesome and smash mooks who are a minor inconvience at best. Makes a guy feel like a big damn hero. The idea of a mook or peasant taking out a hero in 4e is slim to none. Makes fights awesome too, like an action movie or an epic. Works fine to me... YMMV

Edit: And Saw 33? Really? Try Wild Bunch or Pulp Fiction (one of the main character's death was really random. Coming out of the bathroom? Awesome!. Oh, and quite a few main character types died pointless deaths in Greek Tragedy. Read some once in a while if you don't believe me...

Yes what I want out of a game, where a player has spent months playing and working his butt off to build a pc up is to then kill him in a surprising and humiliating way! Actually, no I don't. Character death is easy enough to accomplish. Spending time working for something shouldn't go away because of random dice rolls. I moved on from that to be honest. Also I want Epic, not TRAGEDY. Also, while I have read my fair share of greek tragedies, but could brush up so thanks for the recommendation.

The thing is, If I want old school, crying for mommy at the site of kobolds, with my 3 hit points and crappy ac, hiding in a closet and desperately trying to get a stick to get out of a hellish warzone of a dungeon then I have those games. They were made 30 years ago and have more grit and pulp fiction feel than any modern game could want. Hell the million retroclones are mostly free and "fix" all of the mechanical problems (I say fix, because some see them as features rather than bugs, as always YMMV) I want modern games to do modern things. If I want gritty crazy I have it. There's no need to innovate it, it was done before I was born. I want new modern ways to game, and that is what I want guys like Monte Cook and the proffessionals to do for me. I want to step into the future of gaming rather than back, since I already have seen that and can find it easily.

So, basically, what you're saying is, if your characters are challenged by something that you think is beneath you, it isn't "fun". Wow.

I think that's the sense of entitlement a bunch of us old school guys don't understand.

I'm going to say this, I feel somewhat insulted by this. First off I have been playing one version or another of the game for many a year. There is no "Entitlement" here, just tired of starting over many times because a nonsensical encounter killed a party of heroes. "Gee guys I know you have slain Jabborwocks and Terrasques, but that kobold just got a lucky crit in"

I have my grognard moments as much as the next guy, but I want the Illiad not Saw 33. I want heroes being heroic not dealing with the minor crap like hiding in the closet like a peasant. If a hero is to die, make it count for something...

Also in the future please refrain from assuming my "entitlement" please. I don't know you're gaming pedigree and you shouldn't assume mine.

I dig heroes of the feywild. One of my players is trying the witch, which(haha!) on the surface is similiar in flavor to Paizo's witch (a good thing as far as falavor is concerned). Also with the berserker barbarian and skald bard it makes norse mythology games doable (Thirteenth warrior anyone?)

The flavor of some of the stuff is pretty good, and if you want to run a fables style game or something set in ancient greece or the like it is a must have IMO.

The themes are cool and the paragon paths are pretty neat.

• The fey beast tamer gives you an animal companion,
• the sidhe Lord is just crazy good allowing you and your allies to make pacts, and bargains in which you give them something and they give you something (such as they lose an action point to get a free standard attack and you gain the action point).
• Tuathan are fey blooded shapechangers (from what I guess)
• and the Unseelie agent is a spy type that can make a shadow weapon out of thin air..

the paragon paths are for the character classes introduced (berserker, skald, and witch)

The epic destinies are cool aswell.

Overall I really like the book, and While I don't dislike Essentials in general (I'm one of the few who are fine with the 3 phbs, etc) the added books like feywild and shadow IMO add some very cool ideas and add ons to the game.

Overall Very cool product :P

Personally we have handwaived it in EVERY edition to being one nights rest get back spells. I honestly enjoy the rest for 8 hours get full hps etc feel of 4e because nothing bogged down a game like resting in a locked room frightened for your life for 18 days to get healed up enough to run from a dungeon full of kobolds. This wasn't always the case but if someone didn't play the short straw (cleric) then a week or two hiding in a closet hoping they don't catch you it is... Yea I enjoy those times when my pc is frightened that he may be discovered, but I prefer that when stealthing or dealing with more powerful enemies rather than mooks...

Stewart Perkins wrote:

honestly I doubt you will see this possibly EVER. My reasoning on this is they have announced a paizo mmo that will be heavily based around that, and most likely they'll keep those ideas for that...

*Shrug* I hope that the MMO doesn't have negative effects on their AP products. They are basing the MMO on it because it was so popular...

I agree wholeheartedly. What I meant (and may have not been very clear, in which I apologise) is that Most of the adventures and content for the MMO (the writing not programming) will presumably be done by proffessional designers (such as Paizo has on staff) if they want that authentic Pathfinder experience they seem to want to give. As such, with so much effort being diverted or redirrected that way as far as content goes, I would assume they would only have so much to do in that area without treading on a new AP. I'm also under the assumption that as such they would want to keep the two seperate as far as that goes. As such I just wouldn't expect to see much in the way of that area in the same way there isn't APs in Absolom (Pathfinder society has that kind of locked down), etc.