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+1 I for one love high-tech/scifi elements in my fantasy games. Would love a new tech guide and 2e Numeria AP.
+1
Chalk me down as a vote for it, and doubly so if such a book brings us some alien Ancestries! My vote is in favor of a 2e Technology Guide. I'd also love a 2e AP in Numeria. I love medieval fantasy as a base, but as someone who grew up with FF IV (aka III), I also love a good high-tech/scifi crossover.
You may not be able to see through the shadows in the hood... but I am grinning. Downloaded the free PDF and will be buying a hardcopy PF2e, already had the PDF. The % by which you discounted it made me chuckle. Can't wait to see ORC go live and the things it will generate. Thank you Paizo!
@Paizo, I haven't been active on the forums for a long time, but my group and I have been playing PF1e for a long time. I have seen the news lately with OGL1.0 and Paizo's reply with ORC License. I just wanted to stop back by the Forums to show my support for your organization and your fight against the monopolization of TTRPG, back then with the launch of PF1e and again now with ORC. I can't wait to see it live and watch the 3pp content start flooding in. Thank you!
It does look as though you can have a shadow double use your SLAs from level 10, yes. The level 20 ability limits them to moving and attacking when unfettered though, so that's more limited. Perhaps. I can understand that interpretation. However, if that's the case and the Unfettered Shadows are ONLY ever able to move and attack (no ability use like the level 10 use of duplicates), then why does the writer feel the need to specify that the Unfettered Shadows cannot use the Shadow Duplicate ability? If the Unfettered Shadows cannot use any abilities, then specifying that they can't use a particular ability is incredibly bad writing and I'd prefer to believe that the authors are better at their jobs than that. YMMV. Seperately, the text doesn't specify SLAs, it says abilities, which without other qualifiers indicates a range of things beyond just SLAs. The way I read it:
While unfettered, each shadow double can move and attack as if it were the ankou’s shadow without using any of his actions. This statement isn't saying the Shadow Doubles somehow lose functionality when Unfettered. It just says to me, now they get their own Move and Attack actions without soaking up the Ankou's own action economy. The writer is adding functionality here, not taking it away. Worst case scenario, the Shadows Duplicates have their move and attack actions free of charge and the Ankou's Shadow may still have to use his own action economy to use them as the point of origin for his other abilities. However, if that's the case, again, why specify that they canNOT individually use the Shadow Duplicate ability, which is not an attack and therefore shouldn't be something they can do anyway under such an interpretation. Also keeping in mind that according to the level 10 entry the Ankou's Shadow CAN use any of it's duplicates as the origin point for it's ability to summon new Duplicates. So, the level 20 entry is making a very specific point of saying that the Shadows cannot use that ability on their own; which has significant implications. A slayer trying to use their talents to make up for missing feats is going to use a ranger combat style with those talents BTW. I realize. I'm honestly not sure what point you're getting at here.
If what I posted above is an indication that the Shadow Duplicates are in fact able to be the origin point of some (if not all) of the Ankou's abilities. I am curious what you all think of this build framework: 20 level Ankou's Shadow / VMC Illusionist Wizard (Phantasm School) As a refresher, Phantasm School power:
Bedeviling Aura (Su): At 8th level, you can emit a 30-foot aura that bedevils your enemies with phantasmal assailants. Enemies within this aura move at half speed, are unable to take attacks of opportunity, and are considered to be flanked. This is a mind-affecting effect. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. For the Arcane Discovery: Resilient Illusions (Magical Marketplace pg. 18): You are able to conjure illusions so lifelike that they defy disbelief. Anytime a creature tries to disbelieve one of your illusion effects, make a caster level check. Treat the illusion’s save DC as its normal DC or the result of the caster level check, whichever is higher. You must be at least an 8th-level wizard to select this discovery. I think it'd be fun to use the Decoy Familiar Archetype with this Character or NPC. Slayer Talents would include Bleeding Sneak Attack, Weapon Focus, Combat Trick, Feat, and you'd probably want Assassinate and anything that helps with Intimidate. I'd also probably go with the TWF Ranger Style with this character. (The build would have to heavily use Talents to make up for Feat loss due to VMC). Core Feats would include Dazzling Display, Violent Display, Hurtful, and Flensing Strike. Some great additions might be Motivating Display, Shatter Defenses, Terrifying Assassination, and Combat Reflexes. So, at 20th level when this character/NPC unfetters its shadows... You've potentially have a 30' radius in which all enemies are limited to half speed, can't take AoOs, and are Auto-Flanked. Then each time one of these things attacks it's dealing Sneak Attack which allows it to use Dazzling Display to Shake enemies in a 30' radius (possibly buff allies in a 30' radius), in addition to Sickening the target of the attack, and triggering an additional Swift Action Attack. Use a Half-Orc with bonuses to Intimidate and the Tusked trait and you've got yourself a very nasty BBEG NPC. Thoughts?
Firstly, I realize I am necro-ing this thread. I've been playing around with some Ankou's Shadow builds, came across this thread during some research, and wanted to continue the conversation. Secondly, I'm not convinced it's as cut and dry as you think Mellow. The 10th level ability of the Ankou's Shadow reads as follows: At 10th level, an ankou’s shadow gains a third shadow double. He can divide his actions between his actual body and his shadow doubles, using them as the origin point for attacks or abilities. For example, an ankou’s shadow making three attacks as a part of a full attack could make his primary attack from his own body and his other two attacks from two of his shadow doubles. By this point in the Ankou's progression, it looks to me like they have the ability to use their shadows to perform several different actions: Movement, Attack, and Abilities. Furthermore, the shadow verbiage goes to the trouble of specifically naming several abilities the shadows can NOT use: Teamwork Feats/Special Abilities that affect Flanking or Aid Another and in the level 20 description it says the shadows cannot use the Shadow Duplicate Ability.
Gotcha. Thank you.
Hi Mark, I'm hoping you can shed some light on a question regarding Natural Attacks using Str or Dex to hit. I notice that several creatures in the bestiary which have high Dex and low Str seem to use Dex rather than Str to make their Natural Attacks. They don't have Weapon Finesse listed as a feat so I thought it might be a special circumstance for Natural Attacks but I can't find anything in the Combat or Universal Monster Rules to explain this. Do these creatures have Weapon Finesse and it just isn't listed? Or do Natural Attacks generally use whichever Ability score is higher for the creature? I thought I'd read about this before, but it came up in a game and I can't find it. Ex: http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary2/badger.html#badger
Hi James, I'm hoping you can shed some light on a question regarding Natural Attacks using Str or Dex to hit. I notice that several creatures in the bestiary which have high Dex and low Str seem to use Dex rather than Str to make their Natural Attacks. They don't have Weapon Finesse listed as a feat so I thought it might be a special circumstance for Natural Attacks but I can't find anything in the Combat or Universal Monster Rules to explain this. Do these creatures have Weapon Finesse and it just isn't listed? Or do Natural Attacks generally use whichever Ability score is higher for the creature? I thought I'd read about this before, but it came up in a game and I can't find it. http://legacy.aonprd.com/bestiary2/badger.html#badger
PF/SF + AON = +5! I logged into my Paizo account for the first time since my last post in Feb, just to say THANK YOU! To everyone involved. And congratulations to AON! For a long time I used PRD and AON pretty equally, almost interchangeably. As we've gotten further from the last PRD update, I've found myself almost exclusively using AON. I am truly glad to see this relationship develop! And I look forward to seeing how it evolves!
What is the progress on updating PRD website? Thanks. I am also curious about this. The PRD home page says the last update was nearly 2 years ago. I think it stopped at Ultimate Intrigue. Don't get me wrong. I love that PF has put all this stuff out there, and I realize it takes a tremendous amount of manpower to get done. Plus I'm sure there's a lot of those resources being put toward Starfinder Recourse Doc. But I do LOVE this resource and I am nervous it hasn't progressed for a while.
Don't add to RAW because you'd like to be able to point at problems where there are none. Nothing in Stealth fits the FAQ criteria of, "when the rules talk about being in or near an objective light level." You're fabricating a connection between the FAQ and the Stealth skill where none exists.
For this part of stealth, the objective light level is Dim Light as Dim Light is what grants the concealment to enable one to make a Stealth check. You are adding things to the FAQ that simply aren't there and you are adding things to the basic Stealth skill rules that simply aren't there. If you wan't to argue that RAW is broken you need to stick to actual Rules As Written, not RAW plus whatever you're adding in your mind because you're trying to find flaws. Stealth:
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging. Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Medium +0, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16. If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast. Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below). Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location. Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you. Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action. Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving. If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Feats). There's not a single thing in there about "objective light levels" of any kind. The requirement is concealment/cover. Your inference of "For this part of stealth, the objective light level is Dim Light as Dim Light is what grants the concealment to enable one to make a Stealth check," is NOT a problem with RAW, it's a problem with your inference. The FAQ clearly states that to base something off of the observer, the rules will tell you. Doesn't matter in regard to Stealth; Stealth doesn't in any way reference "objective light levels." Your argument is made invalid by this caveat in the FAQ: "when the rules talk about being in or near an objective light level." The FAQ clearly states that to base something off of the observer, the rules will tell you. Only: "when the rules talk about being in or near an objective light level (for example “in an area of dim light”)" HiPS has text "As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light," Stealth has no such text. Stealth does not qualify to be applied to this FAQ. (Unless one does, as you have, and adds words to the actual RAW) But then the FAQ goes on to state that ALL things ("the rules") in the rules go by the current level of light, as a human sees it, unless there is specific text stating otherwise. "When the rules talk about being in or near an objective light level," which Stealth NEVER does. The concealment in Stealth (as it pertains to this conversation, not all parts of Stealth or forms of concealment) is due to the fact that Dim Light gives that concealment. This is not RAW. RAW is what's actually written. Nothing in Stealth talks about "objective light levels." You're making false inferences and injections into RAW for your own interpretation. Of course there are going to be problems in the rules when you intentionally add things to RAW to point out problems. But your argument is not a problem in RAW. Not by any stretch. It's a problem with your inferences and interpretation, I suspect because you want there to be problems. Let me be clear, the FAQ answer itself is not about stealth or HiPS. It is about how to apply levels of light to a situation. Only: "when the rules talk about being in or near an objective light level." In all situations that don't explicitly state otherwise This statement is you adding to RAW. This is not in RAW or the FAQ, this isn't even accurate. The FAQ specifically states when it applies, which is only: "when the rules talk about being in or near an objective light level." There is no such language in Stealth, you are simply fabricating a connection to point out holes that don't actually exist.
Komoda, regarding your post from the FAQ thread:
Stealth calls out it's own requirements, which are not "objective" light levels as the FAQ is talking about. Stealth's requirement is concealment or cover.
Excellent news! Thank you PFD Team!
Echoing what he said, thanks TOZ! And thank you PFD Team!
I think I understand your POV. Though I have to say, I think you are: A) in denial about the implications of the answers provided, and B) over analyzing the answer’s Mr. Seifter gave, to both you and I, to (deliberate or not) invalidate them. The creative designer has, at separate times, stated that neither LLV nor DV help in any special way against the use of HiPS. Those statements were from the perspective of the “observer” having these visual acuities against a hider with HiPS and not talking about canceling HiPS all together. While Mr. Seifter’s response may not have been as specific or clear to your particular case as you’d like he did in fact indicate that LLV and DV do not have effects on the use of HiPS. He did not say anything that would point toward LLV or DV having an effect on the use of HiPS. In fact, in his reply to my question he stated clearly, “…I would tend to agree that anything that depends on the absolute light level of an area should just use the way it works for normal vision;...” So, IMO, the burden of proof is on you to show in some way, based on RAW, that HiPS does not rely on “actual/absolute” light level vs. “perceived” light level. The designer statements I linked above may not specifically answer your exact question, but they generally answer the situation in multiple ways. Regardless of whether the answers are directed at your specific question they still apply to the situation and your argument seems to be in contradiction with what they've said. It’s a bit like asking if you can run with scissors, someone telling you not to run with sharp objects, and you deciding to run with scissors anyway because they weren’t specific enough, to your particular question, in their answer. I realize that’s over simplifying, but it’s kinda how I see it at this point.
It might have to revert to that to make the game work, I understand that. I don't think this is a "revert." This is a rules responsible designer saying how it should work. His statement falls perfectly in line with statements from the creative designer, as well as the understanding of the rules that several people on this thread have. But that ruling/result does need to ignore LLV and Darkvision. Nothing in LLV or DV is being ignored, the abilities don't say that they change the ambient light level. Without a change in ambient light level there is nothing preventing HiPS from functioning. My point has always been that nothing in HiPS or any other skill, ever states that it does. HiPS functions of the ambient light level (presence of dim light). You are insisting that there should be explicit language where none is needed;nothing in the LLV or DV rules states they have any effect at all on the actual, ambient light level. Only that they acknowledge that LLV and Darkvision have to be ignored to reach their position. I will go so far as to say I think I understand your point of view. Personally though, I would not acknowledge that LLV or DV have to be ignored because I don't think your using a valid interpretation of the rules of LLV or DV. I believe you are adding effects and capabilities to those types of vision that the rules do not specify or intend. I have not seen anything presented from the rules (I may have missed something, repost it if you think I am wrong) that indicates LLV or DV do anything to the ambient light level; or anything for that matter besides increase the visual acuity in lower light levels. HiPS says nothing about being interrupted by a creature's visual acuity. It says if X exists you may do Y. (X = dim light, Y = Use Stealth even while being observed and not within cover or concealment.)
And you received an answer: This is in line with the things I posted above from the creative designer, and this is in line with what Mr. Seifter said earlier in reply to my question. If these statements do not fall in line with your interpretation of the rules it may be time to rethink and adjust your understanding of the rules. (Not to say you have to change, in any way, how you are playing home games) These may not be the answers you're hoping for, or the answers you want, but they are answers. Two designers, including the one who wrote the Illuminating the Darkness post so presumably understands how it should work, have stated LLV/DV don't effect use of HiPS.
Komoda, Based on the debate in this forum I posted a question to the Illuminating the Darkness thread and linked it to Mark Seifter's Q&A thread. After the holidays he replied to the question here: Yeah, "actual light" vs "perceived light" is pretty annoying, particularly for features that rely on the exact position of "shadows". I would tend to agree that anything that depends on the absolute light level of an area should just use the way it works for normal vision;... This is coming from the designer who wrote the Illuminating the Darkness entry and should hopefully eliminate some confusion.
Unfortunately I've heard this before. I've even had this debate with a PFS GM here on the forums. It is a main driving factor in why I have never gone to a PFS game and probably will not. I am currently playing a game run by a friend online via roll20. There is a searching for party/campaign feature for the site but I have no idea how well it works. If you can get the GM on here, I can debate it with him/her. It doesn't have to be in a thread, I'd be happy to answer any PMs as well.
Some may find this interesting as well. These are the entries for LLV and DV in the Universal Monster Rules section: . .
Well, you did say Hellcat Stealth works against elves in moonlit nights because they change the actual light level...
Break down the text behind these abilities: DARKVISION Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. It says your seeing “with no light source” not that you become a light source, even just for yourself. The absence of light is darkness, most creatures are effectively blinded in darkness. The creature with DV can see without the presence of light. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). Because colors are the reflection of light. No light, no color. Proving that DV doesn’t create any kind of light, because if it did, colors would be discernable. It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise.. In normal light with normal vision. Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover. This part is from the Vision and Light section. The section as a whole is talking about the effects of different light levels. Dim light and darkness grant concealment. DV removes concealment within its radius which forces creatures to find some other means to block observation and use Stealth. LOW-LIGHT VISION Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. As with DV, there is no mention of producing light. Their eyes are sensitive to existing light and can thus see twice as far. Low-light vision is color vision. Because it requires existing light. Color is a reflection of light. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light. Because he is able to see more detail with very little light. Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day. Because the moon is an infinite source of ambient light. For the Elf the moon is like a torch with no radius limit. Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective* radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters. The text specifically says they can see things twice as far away as light limit for an item, it does not indicate in any way that they produce extra light or change the area into another light level. It says they double the effective (not actual) radius of bright, normal, and dim light. … If your interpretation of the rules were correct and the presence of a creature with LLV turned night into actual daylight, flip-flopping light levels and all the effects associated with them. That again, would have far reaching effects beyond HiPS, or any other character abilities. Just a few of the effects would be: Plant life around an Elf or Elven kingdom would be vastly differently, because it is exposed to daylight 24/7/365. Nocturnal animals like bats and other things sensitive to light would go crazy or die. Vampires would burn in their presence. Creatures with light blindness or light sensitivity might suddenly go blind in the middle of the night just because there’s an Elf somewhere in the vicinity. The list could go on I am sure.
And again, you can't change "where concealment from Dim Light starts" because that would give no reason as to why an elf could Run in that same space. Because they can see... They can see perfectly well as if in conditions of normal light. So there are shadows, but they don’t suffer the negatives from impaired vision or blindness. That said, ability to see as if in normal light, largely doesn’t affect anyone outside themselves. The only affect it has on others is: creatures do not have concealment (from the shadows) against them. It's not that hard to explain. But I don’t see anything that indicates dim light causes hampered movement. I believe it’s only darkness that causes anything beyond concealment and that’s strictly because creatures without DV are effectively* blinded. Read the effects of being blinded in the glossary. You are fixated on the "concealment" aspect of how an elf sees the area and ignore the fact that in all things, the area is normal light to them, not just concealment. Because that's all creatures with LLV/DV do that affects anyone outside themselves. Their ability to see as if they were in normal light does not eliminate shadow, it eliminates concealment in that area (relative to that viewer) and means their vision in (and thus their navigation of) an area is not hampered. And I am not arguing that Shadow Jump or Shadow Master work in any way. I have clearly acknowledged that the game tries to treat Dim Light as static in some cases and variable (based on observer) in others. And I have pointed out that it is broken and impossible to reconcile the two ways. Okay, the issue (for me) is you are "acknowledging" a problem that (IMO) does not even exist. I don't see where the game tries to treat light levels as anything other than static, with modifying factors that have specific, limited effects. IMO, it is your interpretation of the rules that is causing these inconsistencies, not the rules themselves. In this post you admit that you cannot consistently apply your logic to things like Shadow Jump or Shadow Master without the game breaking down. I reconcile it just fine. I have also shown how "as if" and "effectively" carry meaning for "as if visible" and it should be treated the same as "effective radius" but in that case many feel "as if" and "effective" have completely different meanings. I feel they should be interchangeable with the same result. It is not me that is using them differently. Nothing, anywhere within HiPS or LLV, states that: " The only thing that changes (and mechanically affects other characters) based on who is looking at it is where the "concealment from dim light" starts." HiPS never states LLV or Darkvision have no affect and LLV never talks about moving concealment. LLV talks about moving Dim Light. Please quote anything you think indicates that LLV or DV do anything other than remove the visual impairment of shadow (Which is Concealment and/or Blindness) . The fact is, light levels and their effects are pretty well defined:
With that in mind, the effects and capabilities of LLV/DV are also quite well defined:
* Effective: In both cases above mean “treat as if” not “actual.” Creatures without DV in areas of darkness are not “actually” blind. That said they cannot see in darkness and are thus effectively blind while in areas of darkness. Likewise, for Elves you double the “effective” radius of light, however, the “actual” radius is not affected. But I get that we are not going to see eye to eye. Not likely. LLV and DV are very similar to real world, high quality Night Vision Devices. Neither LLV or DV turn night into day, they only let you see when others cannot. Do you even have eyes? Yes. I have both LLV and DV. I can't see within that hood. That is because my sensitive eyes don't actually abolish those beautiful shadows. Happy Gaming. You as well.
So I recently stumbled upon "Stalker Talent"... Where is that talent from?
Only that you acknowledge that you have to ignore the rules for Low Light Vision and Darkvision (aka treat the location of dim light differently for stealth vs. HiPS) to rule your way. No one is treating the location of "dim light" differently for Stealth vs. HiPS. The location of dim light is always the same no matter who is looking at it. The only thing that changes (and mechanically affects other characters) based on who is looking at it is where the "concealment from dim light" starts. That is why basic stealth is affected by LLV and DV and HiPS Stealth is not. You keep arguing your point and accusing others of ignoring rules when, as stated above, you are ignoring words in those same rules that express the intent. Words and verbiage like "effective" and "as if" carry meaning in PF. You are ignoring that intent and trying to say that LLV actually has the power to turn dim light on a moon lit night into normal light. And yet you are also somehow arguing that this utter change in light level doesn't effect things like the Shadowdancer's Shadow Jump ability or their Capstone Shadow Master (which have the exact same requirement for dim light)... the argument isn't even consistent with itself.
Shadows are in the eye of the beholder, in this case the ShadowdancerSo I guess no Dwarves should be Shadowdancers! If you'd like to take it that way, go for it. What he was getting at was, it doesn't matter what the Dwarf or Elf who are looking for a shadowdancer can see. It matters that the shadowdancer is within 10' of dim light. Which DV and LLV don't change.
I have a question about your blog post Illuminating the Darkness.
This blog entry has come up in a recent discussion referencing how Low-light Vision affects light. The way I understand it, both from the CRB and your post here, LLV allows a creature to see better with the light present in the area. So, outside on a moon lit night the elf sees just as well as if it were normal light. In darkness, with a torch the human can see 20' of normal light followed by 20' of dim light; the elf on the other hand can see 40' of normal light followed by 40' of dim light. The elf clearly experiences the light differently but, by my understanding is, that has no physical affect on the amount of actual light; they simply see better with the available light in the area. What I mean by this is, outside on a moon lit night the elf might see as if it's normal light, however, it's still actually dim light outside. The elf may see as if there were 40' of normal light radiating from a torch but in actuality there is still only 20' of normal light. The elf doesn't turn a moon lit night into actual normal light in relation to their own vision. For instance Hellcat Stealth, which functions from being exposed to actual light, does not work against an elf on a moon lit night correct? I ask because it came up. And I was directed to this blog. Someone had read this and when you say:
This individual believed you meant that, while the actual magic stops at 60' (Daylight Spell) for instance, the elf's vision actually extends the affects of real light another 60 feet. So, something completely reliant on being in the light, like Hellcat Stealth, could be used against an elf outside the normal 60' radius of Daylight but still within the 120' radius of normal light the elf is experiencing. I don't think this was the intent of your blog, but I thought the easiest way to get further clarification was to ask you directly about your post. Thank you.
It appears you might be disconnecting the two parts... I'm not disconnecting it. I read it as a whole. Low Light Vision absolutely changes the radius of the light, it just loses its magical properties when interacting with darkness spells. The magic stops, the light from the magic does not. You can't separate the two. The "light" is being generated by "magic" so you can't just say "The magic stops but the physical light from it is doubled." That's like saying the torch goes out but the light from it is still there. (That said: YES, the perceived effects of the existing light is doubled for the eyes of the elf.) This part tells you, in no uncertain terms, that elves may see the area differently, even in regards to the darkness spell, a.k.a. magic. They are affected in the same magical region, but depending on light sources, they are affected differently. I never said they didn't see things differently. I also never said they weren't affected differently by the same light effect. What I said, and continue to believe, is that an elf's eyes don't actually have a physical affect on amount of light present in an area. They only experience it differently. It's no different that two people experiencing hot water in different ways. I might think it's burning and you might be perfectly comfortable. The fact that you are comfortable didn't make the water any cooler. The fact that I felt like I was burning didn't make the water any hotter. The water was at a constant temperature, we simply experienced it differently. ... I understand, based on the verbiage used in the blog, where you are getting your position from. I simply do not agree with the conclusion you are pulling from that blog or the position you have on light levels in PF. (Additionally, I don't think the writer was particularly focused on rule lawyer level verbiage in this post. I say that because in the blog the writer even talks about counterspelling a Spell-like Ability, which isn't even possible in PF.) ... For your consideration:
Now, these aren't the words of any official rules lawyers. But he is the creative director behind PF... I'd say it's worth considering.
I do think it would be interesting to play in a game like that. And I do agree that the system is a bit of a confusing mess. However, I don't agree with your position. Concerning Hellcat Stealth, I would not allow it to work at under a moon lit night against an Elf. I would not allow it to work 40' from a torch either. I would allow it to work when the sun is actually in the sky and producing Bright or Normal Light, and I would allow it to work within 20' of a torch. The feat says you must have Normal or Bright light, so IMO, that's exactly what you must have. An Elf seeing his surroundings as if it's Bright or Normal Light does not constitute actual light hitting the skin of a person with Hellcat Stealth.
You didn’t actually quote any rules to refute anything I said. In fact your opinion seems based on a misquote of rules where you’re saying that LLV moves the light level. It does not, it allows someone to see “as if” and it adjusts the “effective” light level. That’s not the same thing as a torch which actually adjusts the light level in a limited area. This doesn't prove your point. The guy with See Invisible see's invisible creatures "as if" they were visible. This does not "actually" make that creature visible. Likewise LLV and DV allow people to see through varying degrees of dim light and darkness "as if" it were normal light. It does not "actually" change the light level. The blog you keep referencing even confirms that...
Komoda - I found the blog you are talking about. I will read the ensuing thread later, but I read the main blog. It's a thorough description and it also says this: Which is exactly what I and several others have been saying. Yes, the elf (subjectively) sees things differently. That doesn't mean there is any (objective) effect on the actual light level. The torch still only produced actual Normal Light out to 20 feet, the Elf just has sensitive enough eyes that they see as if it's Normal Light out to 40 feet. That however, has absolutely no effect on where the Dim Light actually starts, which is 25' from a torch.
So, part of the problem you are having is this statement isn’t really accurate. The torch doesn’t provide 20’ of normal light ”to a human”. Nowhere in the description is that a thing. The torch provides 20’ of normal light… period. Those are its capabilities. That never under any type of vision changes. Those with LLV are able to see further than the human. But that’s not based on the what the torch does for a human vs. what the torch does for an elf. The torch only ever does what a torch can do and that is a constant. The only variable is that the elf has better vision and can see further with the same level of light (which removes concealment to an increased radius, but it does not increase the actual light level to an increased radius).
People often say that, but it depends. It doesn’t depend. LLV can’t physically change the light level for HiPS but not change it for other powers that rely on being in Dim Light. Do you think that LLV is mean to render a Shadowdancer unable to use HiPS, Shadow Jump, and Shadow Master? It’s all or none, they all function based on the presence of Dim Light. And as I showed, on a moon lit night someone with LLV can see as well as in daylight, which means there is no radius or limit. But just like you can get 10' closer to a human, you can get 10' closer to an elf. Notice how that is the exact same benefit? And you're saying that you can get 60' closer to a dwarf. So the better the vision type, the more powerful HiPS is. Heck, you are saying you can walk right up to a Dark Elf in the underdark with almost impunity. And with the stealth blog, you can basically walk around completely hidden all the time from people that see in the dark "as if it were day". What I am saying is: The use of HiPS to hide even while being observed and without cover/concealment is not hindered by DV or LLV. This is because neither DV nor LLV have any physical effect on the presence of Dim Light. A torch or a Daylight spell have a physical effect on Dim Light, they physically push back the shadows with light. DV doesn’t push back shadows, it only allows a creature to see clearly through them. LLV doesn’t push back shadows, it only allows a creature to see clearly through them. And what I am saying is actually supported by the RAW descriptions of how DV and LLV function in their specific text descriptions. And it is not "more valid" to just say HiPS renders LLV and Darkvision useless. Nothing in HiPS states anything of the sort. And there is NO justification for allowing HiPS to work in total darkness with no dim light at all. The only way to deal with a Shadowdancer using your interpretation is to turn out all of the lights. But your saying that wouldn't even work. I'm not sure how I could have been more clear about defining that facet of my games as "my own opinion" and a house-rule and not RAW. I run my home games that way. It’s also how my GMs have run their home games. I am aware that Shadowdancer and Assassin versions of HiPS need Dim Light specifically by RAW. There are numerous ways to deal with basic Stealth. There are also numerous ways to deal with HiPS, even in my home games. I assure you it works quite well. And believe it or not, my players with very little game experience still managed to easily dispatch an enemy NPC using HiPS. However, as I posted above and in the other thread, we can never get it right. Clearly Dim Light is a broken mechanic. As stated before, if you have 3 different types of vision on a game board, the 3 could see one square as 3 different light levels. For normal stealth, we know that can mean 3 different outcomes. The only reason you think it’s a broken mechanic is you think the light level physically changes when people with different eyes look at it. Light and dark are physical things that have a certain level, that is an objective truth. Your particular ability to see better or worse in that light level is subjective and has absolutely no effect on the actual light or darkness in an area. No more so than a human standing in the dark then putting on Night Vision Goggles, the darkness is still very much present, you can just see better in it with different sight capabilities. HiPS functions in the presence of DV and LLV because it functions based on the presence of physical shadow (Dim Light). Your sight has nothing to do with that. It doesn’t physically push back shadows. HiPS does not function more than 10’ into the radius of Normal Light around a torch because fire (light) has a physical effect on shadow (dim light). The Dim Light is physically washed back by light. I am not certain how you could think DV and LLV have a physical effect on light level, by RAW or otherwise, eyes don’t emit light. HiPS is a mechanic that can simply follow the rules for LLV, DV, and stealth as normal, plus allow more areas (but not all) to hide from each type of vision. It is easy to apply these rules (the mirror stealth) when using it. HiPS does follow the rules for Stealth, LLV, and DV. You are trying to make LLV and DV do something they don’t do in RAW or anywhere else. They don’t have a physical effect on the light level. They don’t push back shadows, there is nothing in the rules that even imply that. But moving past HiPS to things like Shadow Jump, everything gets screwed up. It shouldn’t; all three abilities I named above need EXACTLY the same condition to function: The presence of Dim Light. If things in your interpretation get screwed up then perhaps you should reevaluate your interpretation. Because they work just fine the way I explained it above. The light levels in the game are not the measurable amounts of light in an area, they are the levels at which the viewer sees an area. I’m not even sure where to start here. The light level is a set thing; there are other things that modify that level on a case by case, usually limited basis. For instance it could be a sunny day (Bright Light) and I could cast Deeper Darkness making a small area of (Dim Light). The light level outside is still Bright Light, there’s just an area of Dim Light. Also, a human and an elf could be walking out on a moon lit night. The night is relatively dark (Dim Light). The human has a very hard time seeing, but the elf sees everything AS IF they were in Normal Light. There’s no physical change to the light level, it’s still dark outside, it’s still Dim Light. The elf just sees better. The "base level" or "ambient light" as ruled in the blog about light and vision, don't even allow for mobile light sources such as torches. So going by "ambient light" that includes torches, would mean we now have two different definitions for what "ambient light" is. I don’t know what blog you keep referring to. No, there’s ONE ambient light level, and there are things that modify that level, usually on a limited basis or in a limited area. That same human and elf above can walk into a cave and the ambient light level will be Darkness. In that case they are both blind. Now the human can pull out a torch and now there’s 20’ of Normal Light and an additional 20’ of Dim Light. This doesn’t change the light level of the cave itself, it just changes the immediate light level in a 40’ radius around the torch. Additionally, the Elf in this scenario will be able to see better in that light. They raise the “effective” radius of the light in relation to their own vision, but they do NOT raise the “actual” physical light level beyond what the torch is physically doing with fire. They can see as if the normal light extended to 40’ and the dim light to 80’ but that doesn’t actually change the effects of the torch. Therefore it doesn’t change where the dim light physically is. So I guess we are left with defining "Dim Light" for these types of abilities as whatever is "Dim Light" to a human. It makes no sense, because we don't define it that way for stealth or for perception checks or for movement. For all of those, the light level is based off of the viewer. But somehow, people here think it is SO OBVIOUS that we should be determining "Dim Light" a different way. If true, then even a campaign of all dwarves has to keep track of normal vision rules. The only thing that’s based off the viewer is whether or not someone has concealment against their vision. Their eyes don’t change the physical light level in the room.
LLV doesn’t “move” anything. The light from the torch stays exactly the same, someone with LLV can just see clearly to a further distance using the same light. 2)Defined as static but seen through, as in how LLV sees on moonlit nights. The light is always static. They just see better in that light than others do. It doesn’t change the light level at all. 3)Defined as static, vision types don't matter, as shadow jump and shadow master. Please provide rules and your logic path based on that RAW to support there being three different versions of the light rules. And I am OK with whatever the designers come up with to solve this problem. But having 3 versions of what Dim Light is and how it reacts with LLV makes it impossible to really KNOW what the answer is. Really? Because there’s at least one member of the PF team who said he would allow HiPS against things like LLV and DV. It was a statement by JJ. Anything position for either side would just be an opinion. I backed my opinion with rules quotes from the PRD. You did not. Nor did you directly refute any of the statements I made. The only thing you focused in on was: So, if I am understanding your position correctly, the physical effects of LLV render a Shadowdancer almost completely useless. You didn’t actually quote any rules to refute anything I said. In fact your opinion seems based on a misquote of rules where you’re saying that LLV moves the light level. It does not, it allows someone to see “as if” and it adjusts the “effective” light level. That’s not the same thing as a torch which actually adjusts the light level in a limited area. ... It’s similar to how Shadow Jump functions “as if” by means of a Dimension Door spell. That doesn’t mean the Shadowdancer is casting Dimension Door, which is why they don’t qualify for the Dimensional Dervish feats on their own without other intervention.
Yup, if you can move without a move action, you can get a stealth check as part of that. Agreed. And in out of combat situations I would allow Stealth checks even without leaving your square. For instance, if you are standing behind a desk and someone walks past a door. Do I really need you to move, or can you just crouch behind the desk and roll to see if they notice you? For example, if you look at Quickdraw and the +1 BAB draw weapon rule in combat, you see two references, one says "regular move" (combat chapter), the other says "movement" and both are referring to the same thing with different language. True. For drawing a weapon a 5 foot step does not qualify. True. I think a case could be made to try to allow a 5 foot step to qualify for Stealth, but compared to other rules it's also very reasonable to not allow that. I'd say a very strong argument that 5' step qualifies as a Movement, since it's specifically described as a Movement multiple times in the combat chapter:
I don't really see a good RAW argument against it. But I would agree, something like the Oracle's (Battle) Surprising Charge would also qualify as "movement" to trigger a stealth check. There are a few of those abilities out there. Does the Ninja have one? Typically those abilities are a limited number of times (times/day for the Oracle, would guess a Ninja ability would spend Ki if it exists). I don't know if the Ninja has an ability like that. I don't think they do.
And not all shadows would qualify as dim light. A shadow cast by a tree on a bright sunny summer day is not something I'd consider dim light. Dim light is the level of light at night during a full moon. I suppose I shouldn't be lazy with terminology. It's important to be specific. Yes, the rule in SD/Assassin HiPS is Dim Light. I use shadow because there was a statement from JJ or JB a few years back about them being interchangeable. They said that because of the Assassin language which was a copy/paste oversight from 3.5. I agree, you do not need concealment. Cool, we'll move from there.
So the question become, do LLV/DV actually remove "A" Dim Light? Under normal stealth, we all know that because the elf increases the radius of A, the rogue loses B and cannot C. This is something I think we need to use very specific language with as well. Does LLV actually push back the physical radius of A? The applicable rules are:
These rules indicate to me that the physical radius of light and the edge of Dim Light have not moved. The Elf simply has eyes so sensitive to light that they are able to see further in the same conditions of light. It's very similar to real world Night Vision technology, it's still dark outside, but when you turn those on you can see perfectly. It has no physical effect on the light level.
My position above has not changed. However, let's explore the implications of your point of view in reference to the bolded portion of the quote above. If your position is correct, and LLV actually has a physical effect on the light level, then outdoors on a moonlit night a Shadowdancer would be as useless as if he were in the bright light of the noon sun... This has effects that reach much further than not being able to use HiPS even if he is 100' or farther away from an elf. It means he can't use Shadow Jump either, because he's evidently not standing in physical Dim Light, he can't even use his capstone ability: Shadow Master (Su): At 10th level, whenever a shadowdancer is in an area of dim light, she gains DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws. In addition, whenever she successfully scores a critical hit against a foe who is in an area of dim light, that foe is blinded for 1d6 rounds. So, if I am understanding your position correctly, the physical effects of LLV render a Shadowdancer almost completely useless. I recognize the overwhelming "But Supernatural" and flavor arguments. I don't care. They have nothing to do with the rules. That's fine, the supernatural element is only one facet of my logic. I can just as easily use the wording of LLV and the Shadowdancer's abilities to convey my position. There is nothing in any of the LLV descriptions that indicate it has a physical effect on the light or pushes the edge of Dim Light back; they merely see clearly (no concealment) out to a greater distance under the same light levels. To assume anything other than that has far reaching and potentially game breaking effects, IMO.
rai that's how it's supposed to work, but the rogue doesn't have the rangers camouflage ability to give them cover/concealment and only has the unobserved clause taken out by HIPS. I had the exact same logic as BigNorseWolf in regards to the Hellcat Stealth feat, which has almost identical language to the Rogue HiPS talent. I thought they would still need to find Cover/Concealment. Then my logic world was shattered when the write of the feat answered my posts and said: That said, I am pretty sure Rogue HiPS works exactly the same. Allowing someone to hide even while being observed removes the need for Cover/Concealment all together. Shadowdancer HiPS just explains it in more detail.
Either way, it's a move action. You either have to move, which triggers the opportunity to make a Stealth check, or you have to allow the sniping version to apply to melee attacks (which carries a -20 penalty). This is not really the case. Sniping is the only thing specifically called out as using a Move Action. Otherwise it requires no action at all and is typically used as part of some other movement. “Movement,” is not the same as Move Action, or using your Move Action to move your base speed. A rogue that instead invests in two-weapon fighting and maneuverability is a much bigger threat in a fight, and never has to use stealth. True story. Especially if they have solid tactics with their party.
So to get hide in plain sight you have to already have max ranks in stealth at lv 5, and lets say your a half-elf and you take skill focus stealth, and it's a class skill, with what, a 20 dex? that's +19 without any items. 1. This can just as easily be done with Wisdom and Perception. 2. You seem to be ignoring that getting HiPS takes a tremendous portion of a level 5 character’s resources. It’s not just 5 skill points. It’s also all three of your three feats granted by character level. If you’re trying to achieve SD by level 5 you are pretty pigeon holed as a character. You have 1 thing that you do fairly well and it’s still highly situational.So sure a wizard can cast invisibility, using up a spell slot, to be invisible against any creature with only regular sight. Actually wizards can become invisible starting at level 1, with the Vanish spell. And I am not sure why you are saying it’s only against regular sight. It works perfectly well against LLV and DV. It even provides effects against creatures with Scent, Tremor Sense, and Blind Sense. A shadow dancer can stealth against any creature with any sight infinite times for the cost of what, putting ranks into you best and most used skill? And 100% of your level 5 feats. I mean that is like saying, yah sure bards are good, if you put ranks in diplomacy, bluff, and perform. Stealthing well is their schtick, if you are making sure it is high than you crippling yourself. Not at all the same. A character who’s that invested in Stealth is ONLY invested in Stealth. If you know what you’re doing Stealth is actually pretty simple to defeat, even when modified by HiPS. Also their are plenty of ways to get dim light. Sure if the outside is bright, than the shadow is probably normal. Then if it is normal a shadow is probably dim. Sure their are times that it won't work but that is like saying quivering palm isnt strong because some times it doesn't work. This is not an accurate picture of how light levels work in PF. Dim Light is defined as a darkness that is thick enough to cause you to miss a target standing right in front of you 20% of the time… when have you ever been standing outside during the day under cloud cover and seen a shadow on the ground that was SO DARK you wouldn’t be able to effectively see if you stepped into it….? A tree casting a shadow in conditions of Normal Light does NOT constitute Dim Light. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
However the others still run into the issue of, do tremersense/true sight break them. In my games, Yes. But that decision/ruling is based on my knowledge of D&D 3.5 where PF came from. HiPS allowed Hide checks which were countered by Spot checks. Move Silently was a separate skill countered by Listen. So it’s much clearer in 3.5 that HiPS is a visual only effect. Stealth says: If you are observed you must break observation. You break observation by using concealment or cover. I can understand your confusion with RAW here. But I believe (my opinion) RAI is to follow the tradition of 3.5 in which HiPS was a visual thing. Oh your favorite terrain is large open fields and you were standing 5ft in front of a deity. So, your a stealth PC at level, say 15, your going to have what. 15+9+3+9+2=38ish stealth without me trying to hard, against a CR30/MR10 creature your going to be able to stealth 75% of the time. Not sure where you’re getting all those +s to Stealth, but that looks like a significant portion of a character’s resources. Balance tends to win out. A character who is completely invested in Stealth completely breaks down when situations arise where Stealth isn’t an option or isn’t useful. Also… If you’re allowing a little thing like Stealth to befuddle a deity in your game, IMO that’s a GM problem not a game mechanics problem. You are a GOD… Just mass teleport everyone, everything in the area to a new terrain… Or change the terrain instantly into a different one… or maybe cast a custom god version of Glitter Dust that covers a square mile of ground (you know custom spells are a perfectly reasonable and RAW thing in PF right?)… How about an AOE Suggestion spell to the Stealthy character who almost definitely has a garbage Will save… Or hey, maybe in your campaign gods aren't all that powerful... maybe the Stealth guy can avoid detection by a god. After all Adam and Eve managed to hide from God right? But if that's the case it should be setting/campaign/story driven, not because you feel hamstringed by your players. That is overpowered, it just is. That is capstone level of good. It’s really not.
And not all shadows would qualify as dim light. A shadow cast by a tree on a bright sunny summer day is not something I'd consider dim light. Dim light is the level of light at night during a full moon. This is a good point. Dim light is a well-defined term in PF. It’s a level of darkness at which it’s so hard to see that it causes you to completely miss when you’re trying to hit something right in front of you 20% of the time.
To be honest, as long as your within 10ft you can literally hide from anything by RAW. Well, as long as you’re within 10’ of shadow you can “attempt a Stealth check.” All HiPS does is provide a new mechanic for making Stealth checks in situations you normally wouldn’t be able to. Stealth is still countered by Perception as well as a host of other things. So you make some kind of box, see Schrödinger's Candle above, carry it in your bag and be undetectable at all times. That is so clearly not the intent, and this is why I think that this needs a FAQ. I don’t really think the designers will or even should provide errata just to prevent immature abuses of RAW like what you’re talking about. Instead, GMs should spend some time/effort doing their best to understand both RAW and RAI and apply some PC centric logic. The rest of this was my beliefs on how a believe it should work. I believe HiPS should work in Darkness as well as Dim Light. I think it’s stupid to have an ability that only works in 1 out of 4 light levels in the game. That is how I run it in my games, but I do so fully aware that by RAW it is wrong. It’s fine if you as a GM decide with your players to run things a certain way at your table. But it’s also important to realize what the rules say and what they are silent on. The rules say what HiPS does, they are silent on how exactly the ability does it; beyond “it’s magical in nature” as a supernatural ability. This is why I wasn't citing rules, because there are none. It has the feat text and that's it. There are mechanics in the text. They describe what HiPS does: Stealth normally requires two things to function:
HiPS removes those requirements and replaces them both with:
If you do not qualify for use of HiPS then you are back to using basic Stealth and require two things again. The only thing missing is the HOW. But the thing is, you don’t need it, the mechanics are all you really need to make the game function. The HOW is entirely fluff and can be explained any way you like as long as it works with the mechanics. Now does hide in plain sight move you into the box, do you get transported, does that provoke? No. HiPS is not a teleportation power. does it just magically help you hide? Do you need a whole 5ft cube? Yes, this is why it doesn’t work in an Anti-Magic Field or Dead Magic Zones. what if there is one in. of dim light. By strict RAW you could use that to trigger HiPS. Is that the intent? Probably not, in fact I think I have a favorited statement from one of the designers that says they would probably not allow it unless it was at least a 5’ square of dim light. That said, it’s up to the GM to decide whether a tiny shadow is enough to trigger that magical connection to the plane of shadow or whether that falls under immature abuse of the system. This also might be dictated by the setting/feel you and your players want in the campaign. Maybe 1” of shadow isn’t enough in a low magic campaign but perhaps if you are running a very high magic campaign it would be plenty to generate that magical connection. Either this needs specifically laid out, or it falls straight into GM discretion, which I hate, because I don't like to be the bad guy who says "sorry that's not how I think it should work and therefore it doesn't. You realize, if the design team took the time and word space necessary to specifically spell out every single issue that people argued over, or spelled out every single rule for every possible scenario PF would turn into just reading about playing a game… rather than actually playing the game. Plus the multiple volumes necessary would be far larger than the CRB. GMing requires us to fill in those gaps; which isn’t easy. " I don't want to play the villian who says, because this ability could be used ridiculously and is left so vague… It’s part of your job as the GM to do your best to understand how things are supposed to work (RAW/RAI) and rule as closely to that as you can. At the same time you have to ensure the integrity and continuity of your game world and squash those stupid and immature abuses you’re talking about. Now if I played with one of you the ruling you decide upon would be surely different. Probably. What’s wrong with that? The objective of the game is to have a cooperative, fun experience with friends. What difference does it make if I do that a bit differently at my table than you do at yours? And, given human nature, I don’t think it’s even possible to unify gameplay at every table unless you’re playing in an electrically programmed game. The government / military is a great example. There are volumes and volumes of regulations and code but every office does certain things just a little bit differently. To an extent these areas where rules are silent is intentional. It allows for the game to evolve as necessary to fit the story/campaign. It is my "opinion" that super mega invisibility is way to broken for a lv 5 ability and if it were a capstone ability i would be much more likely to agree with the other ideas on how it works. You mean, the same level Wizards are getting things like Fireball that can end a fight in one round or Greater Invisibility which makes the Shadowdancer wonder why he spent so many resources working toward HiPS? I think you are vastly overestimating Stealth. It’s very useful but also highly situational and easily defeated by a multitude of tools and tactics, not to mention other abilities. Tremor Sense, Blind Sense, Blind Sight, and Scent all have varying degrees of adverse effect on the use of Stealth, with varying degrees of difficulty in circumventing those effects. There are also several spells that can severely hamper or thwart the use of Stealth. And in combat even a readied action is pretty devastating. It’s just a matter of getting familiar with those things and being reasonable about which NPCs and creatures would have access to those things.
Assassins and Shadowdancers work exactly the same. There was a post in the forums a long time ago that said the Assassin's entry was an accidental Copy/Paste error from 3.5 and that their terminology of Shadow means Dim Light as the Shadowdancer for Pathfinder. Rangers and Rogues the ability relies on terrain, not shadow, so there is no argument. Sorcerer's Shadow Bloodline is similar to Assassin/Shadowdancer, so works the same. There's also the Hell Cat Stealth feat that gives you a daylight version of HiPS at a -10 penalty to the Stealth Roll. It works IMO, similarly to the Shadowdancer as well, but in light vs shadow. Did you have any specific versions of HiPS you were asking about?
Perhaps, but I have gotten out of the habit of doing that with Stealth threads. They tend to go off on tangents that don't relate to the OP. I was addressing your Original Post. Which appeared to be a question.
You are making the assumption that HiPS is -meant- to get around darkvision, to argue that it should get around darkvision. My theory is that both DV and HiPS do exactly what their mechanics state they do: DV allows one to see as clearly in darkness as a person with normal vision could see in bright light and it removes the benefit of concealment. HiPS allows you to use Stealth without the need for Cover or Concealment even when being observed as long as within 10' of shadow. Are you certain it isn't you assuming that DV and LLV were "meant" to defeat HiPS. We have a rule for HiPS that doesn't mention how it works at all. Is it just hiding, with magic to move the shadow? Is it some planar-warping? We don't know. We actually do know exactly how it works mechanically. Basic Stealth requires two things to function:
HiPS replaces those requirements with:
Therefore, Darkvision, which defeats basic Stealth by taking away the concealment from shadow, has no opportunity to defeat someone using HiPS because they no longer require concealment. But we -do- know that it is called "Hide" in plain sight. and DV sees through hide, unless cover or invis is used. Again, a general rule for how DV interacts with basic Stealth and the concealment granted by shadowy light levels. Does DV see though HiPS? That's of course, up to the GMs in their home games. But by RAW, it does. RAI? It probably shouldn't. By RAW...? Please cite rules that say DV defeats supernatural abilities called HiPS, or does anything other than remove the concealment granted by shadowy light levels. Because again, you are just citing a general rule that is talking about how DV interacts with the concealment of light levels and basic Stealth.
Oh, I see. Sorry. I only read your OP, posted in the Rules Questions section without any caveat about not wanting rules posted in your thread, and falsely assumed you wanted rules related debates. Are you in fact looking for any debate or feedback, Or just FAQ pressing, which I already did?
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