The fact Paizo did not update the release date for this until the day-of, despite knowing for at least a week before, is a clear sign that PDF purchasers are a second tier concern. Makes me really not wanna support them anymore.

If it legitimately takes you a week to change a product date on your website, your website is unusable and needs to be rewritten from scratch as your top priority.

Priority number one: Make money to stay in business

Reality is that Paizo states that PF2 is doing gangbusters in terms of overall sales (even if people are reporting serious drops of interest in different locales). They have to weigh potential sales disruption of webpage redesign with any benefit. Reality is that people who complain on the forums are already huge fans who will buy even if they grumble. There is no financial benefit to webpage redesign in their eyes if they are already doing blockbuster business

Laran wrote:

So the pdf is no longer available tomorrow but has been pushed out to Sep 1?

Correct. It was announced in a few places beforehand but for some reason wasn't updated on the store page until today I think.

Ah, thank you. I will assume that it will keep being pushed back until all the subscribers have downloaded their copies. I will check back in a couple of weeks

So the pdf is no longer available tomorrow but has been pushed out to Sep 1?

The 'General Rule' for Precious Materials is to use the 1 Bulk cost as a minimum:

Chapter 11: Crafting & Treasure / Materials / Precious Materials wrote:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 577 2.0

Materials with the precious trait can be substituted for base materials. For example, a hammer’s head could be made of adamantine instead of iron. Items made of a precious material cost more than typical items; not only does precious material cost more, but the crafter must invest more time working with it. In addition, more powerful items require precious materials of greater purity. A number of precious materials are described below. The Price entry for each material gives the Price of a simple non-magical item made of that material, based on its Bulk (if the item is lighter than 1 Bulk, use the price for 1 Bulk), as well as Prices for different amounts of the material itself. Prices for armor, shields, and weapons made of precious material are in the Armor (page 555), Shields (page 586), and Weapons (page 599) sections of this chapter.

Since the Precious Material Weapons do not give a specific exception, the general rule seems to apply here and you'll need to pay 968g for a cold iron (standard grade) light mace.

However, it is quite reasonable to interpret the 1 bulk rule as SPECIFIC to simple items and therefore NOT generalizable. The rule is in the simple item section and the CRB explicitly states that weapons follow different rules

RAW - We do not know the answer and so is GM discretion. Good question since the line about using 1 bulk as the lower limit is in the simple item section and DOES NOT appear in the weapons section. The CRB states that weapons have a different set of cost/manufacture rules from simple items (p578) without discussing any carryover of rules. Indeed, it has a specific example in the weapon section that 10 pieces of ammunition do NOT use any additional bulk whatsoever which contradicts that simple item rule of 1 bulk being the lowest amount.

I have considered taking it only once when I was trying to figure out an undead sorcerer/investigator

Reason: It is ALWAYS on, The way I interpret the phrase "always using" is that you are never actually using actions to cast. In that sense it is a passive ability like the one that allows for secret door rolling even if not seeking

Also, I recall in PF1 there was something similar that made your eyes glow which I thought was cool. I know this does not have that fluff but I have fond memories

Remember that a staff does not have a tradition. It has a collection of spells.

Basics of staves (as I understand it)

A Staff uses charges to allow the wielder to cast spells contained in the staff.

Spells refer to level 1-10 spells which take up spell slots. Cantrips, while in the spell section, are not spells but a different type of magic

If the staff does not have charges, it cannot be used to cast spells. It can cast the cantrip even uncharged since that is not a spell (technically the rules say you cast without using charges which could be construed as requiring the staff to be charged but that is another question)

A staff is charged automatically during daily prep and gains a number of charges equal to the preparers/wielders highest level spell. Since the rules state specifically that contrips are NOT spells, they are irrelevant to the charging question

A wielder can use the charges to cast a staff spell that appears on their spell list (regardless of tradition)

Thus

If your 13th level character has NO spell slots, they cannot charge the staff and the staff cannot be used to cast non-cantrip spells. They can use the cantrip freely if it is on their spell list.

What flavour text would contradict the two targets being within 30' of the caster?

"An arc of lightning leaps from one target to another."

The arc can go from any point to any point within the range. In essence, it allows connecting any two squares in a 65' x 65' area (30' range from caster). The rules only require you to measure the range to each target from the caster and if both are within 30', it works. You could have have 1 target be 30' north and the other be 30' south of the caster and both would be hit.

Also, nowhere does it say that the two targets have to be within 30' of each other. It sounds like the GM is trying to insist that range is measured twice from two different points (caster and first target).

The book is a little hazy

p453 The first sentence says that you can make a non-lethal attack without specifying a weapon requirement (even though the next three sentences all reference weapons)

p658 says that Attacks use Strike or other Attack Actions

Thus, a literal reading would seem to be that if a spell has the attack trait, it should be possible to make it non-lethal. Produce Flame allows you to make a melee attack with the flame in your hand and has the attack trait. Spiritual Weapon is another example

A corollary is that nothing in the rules allows spells that do not have the Attack trait to be made non-lethal. Thus, it does not appear possible to make a Fireball non-lethal.

Do I think that the designers intended that only physical weapons (not spell manifestations) could be made non-lethal? Probably, but that is not the way the rules are written

The verb "bear" is defined by Merriam Webster as "carry" and does not include "use" or "wield." If one carries a weapon (or even a symbolic representation on a necklace say) fervently and often, that is "zealously bearing" the item. If Pathfinder wanted to have the champion use the favored weapon to the near exclusion of others, it would probably have used the phrase "zealously wield" or "zealously use."

Given that no penalties apply when using assurance, is my assumption that you can track at full speed without impact correct RAW. Thus, if your proficiency was +10 (6th level expert) you would get a 20 even if moving at full speed.

No, you cannot activate any items

CRB p635

"... Your gear is absorbed into you;the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can’t activate any items."

Prime example of why it has conflicting interpretations. People on both sides feel that their interpretation and understanding is absolutely correct. Google the various threads to see the arguments on both sides (including the one above)

Lots of previous threads on Synaptic Pulse and they all come to the conclusion that RAW, it requires all creatures (allies and enemies) other than yourself to make a save. The RAI is where there is a question because the first sentence is not your normal "fluff." By using the term "enemies" in the sentence it reads as if it should be rules text. (Interestingly "Enemy," while used frequently throughout the CRB, does not appear to be defined explicitly only as contrasted with Ally/GM call) {please point me to the correct page with the definition if I am wrong}

Absent an official clarification, it seems to be a spell used to clear a horde of evil minions (incapacitation means your allies should be mostly safe if you keep it 1 level below max). Thus, it has a place as a level -1 spell to prevent horde tactics

why is the OP getting their Strength bonus to damage in wild shape?

Ah - NVM. They meant to say wild morph

Point out that the 3rd and 4th shot are at -6 not -10.

"Your multiple attack penalty for attacks against your hunted prey is –3 (–2 with an agile weapon) on your second attack of the turn instead of –5, and –6 (–4 with an agile weapon) on your third or subsequent attack of the turn, instead of –10."

Please let me know where it says the -3/-6 rule does not apply to arrow attacks (I know that the -2/-4 is not applicable since bows are not agile)

I know that as a sorcerer you can make 1 spell of each spell level a signature spell. My question is whether I can take a heightened version of a spell and make it a signature spell for the heightened level.

For example - Dispel Magic is a 2nd level spell. I could make it my signature spell for 2nd level spells. If I take the heightened version (level 3), could I make that my 3rd level signature spell?

The reason could be if I want to make another 2nd level spell a signature spell (e.g. Calm Emotions) even if that is not optimal

not many people will click on a generic "check out these Anna K pics" link. A little context as to what it is referencing or linking it to the guide to the guides with a description.

The problem I have with the guides from Fedora are the large number of embedded advertisements. I understand the desire to make money off the eyeball traffic but it is nigh impossible to read them without becoming annoyed.

Read your comments on Sound burst and you might want to double check that. Deafened condition does NOT impact spellcasters use of verbal components since verbal does NOT have the Auditory trait

Rule snippet
(... If you perform an action with the auditory trait, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or the action is lost).

Scrolls can take a round to set up if something like a frighten or a slow happens.
That aside, let's face it -the vast majority of encounters will be over within 4-6 rounds.

You will cast maybe 1 utility (e.g. tentacular limbs), 1 buff, 1 debuff/control and the rest attack spells (touch as well as ranged).

The OP already has calm emotions, hideous laughter. They probably also have phantom pain, magic missile, fear, focus spell. The workman spells cast most encounters will be calm emotions, hideous to debuff (preventing reactions), a focus spell, and then attack.

The choices are now what is a good third spell that will come in handy more than once a blue moon:

1) Blur - fits the bill admirably and would be my favorite choice for 3rd.

2) Faerie Fire- nice to have as a spell since it becomes an immediate action (good chance it will take a round to set up the scroll cast in which time, the enemy can be anywhere). It you want, Glitterdust is a reasonable alternative which trades the no save for a reasonable chance to dazzle

3) Spiritual weapon - great use of the third action

False life and longstrider tend to be seen as wand spells because of their long duration and relatively no gain for heightened

Good 2nd Level spells that age well:

Blur with its 20% miss chance (not 25% since with a they only miss on a 1,2,3,4) is a great 2nd level buff.
Faerie Fire is also great since it is a no save.

Occult Evolution feat (L4) goes a long way in making this easier

If empathic link doesn't let you command your familiar then familiars are uncommandable without the Speech ability as the don't understand language.

Most familiars were originally animals and become something more and you can command them as a minion (p217).

Thus, it appears that you could give them any command that you could give to an animal (by shouting at it, talking to it, signalling it, etc).

You can communicate with it (but not necessarily command it) empathically up to a mile away as an additional innate ability but that is not the only non-language way you can communicate with it assuming it can hear/see you.

Of course, other issues remain such as: How to handle non animal familiars, what commands you can give it, how would you train an animal to give you a focus point back except as a new trick (which is not possible RAW in PFS for example), etc.

Wonderful - that means that a form shifting Fighter will be Legendary in their form attacks at 13th level. Pity about not getting the +4 damage though

Anyways, that's it for me with PF2. Routinely having to look in 4 places to figure out a rule is just too much. Good luck with your fighter and happy that you can make it like you want

You are right, that would seem to be an easy question

I would say that it depends on what you are discussing. If you are talking about the Fighter Weapon Mastery, then I would say that unarmed attacks do NOT benefit

CRB p317 States that the form grants unarmed melee attacks

CRB P278 Unarmed attacks CAN belong to a weapon group (Fist is part of the brawling group) BUT they are NOT weapons. The CAN implies that it is not automatic. Also, says abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed unless specified

CRB 143 Fighter Weapon Mastery works with Simple and Martial weapons (and advanced).

Since there is no description as being heavier than air or rolling on the ground (like PF1 version), it definitely travels 10' but the direction could be straight up and it would not fall back to earth. It also does not say in a line so you could also have it turn so move 5' forward then 5' left. Next round 5' forward and 5' down.

It is a conjured substance and has the quality of poison so I have to guess that it is a physical not psychic manifestation. If that is the case, it should be stopped by physical barriers.

Interesting - Should Gust of Wind (a level 1 spell) be able to neutralize Cloudkill (a level 5 spell) since Gust says it disperses fogs and mists. I have to assume they meant Gust of Wind disperses non-magical fogs and mists

*edit*

One thing I have noticed is that the new edition has parts of rules spread across the book so you have to look in three or more places to understand the rules. I would not be surprised if there is some trait or ability description where we would not think to look that has a line pertaining to this type of effect

So while there is no way to be a necromancer in PFS2, the question of whether you can be a MinionMeister is different.

Q1: Can minions have minions?

There is no mechanism currently for non DM creatures to explicitly create a Master-Minion relationship outside the familiar/AC/Summoning system. It is possible for a non-PC to use a spell such as Dominate to create a permanent non-minion relationship but that would require the non-PC to use the 10th level spell version and get a critical failure (which would mean that they are very high level).

Q2: Can minions give you infamy?

Mostly yes. Non-sapient minions will only do what you command except to defend itself or escape obvious harm. This means that the only way they can perform a wantonly evil act (infamy), is if you ordered it. Sapient creatures will act on its own if left alone for 1+ minutes (typically) (p634 CRB Minion). PFS guide says that you accrue the consequences of Hireling actions (PFS Society Guide Faction Boons). While it does not specify minion (hirelings are not minions), it would be logical to assume the same since hirelings and minions only do what you command

Q3: Can minions earn downtime (assume you meant earn income)

PFS Society guide specifies that the "character" gets down time (PFS Society Guide Organized play basics). There are no rules for anyone else

Q4: Do you take prebuilt undead or ground up

See above. Creating undead can only be done by evil characters and you cannot play evil characters in PFS

Q5: Does Atone remove infamy

No. Atone allows you to repair your relationship with your Deity.
Infamy is a problem with your reputation within the Society regardless of deity. Infamy is a Society specific mechanism which has a Society specific solution (untarnished reputation).

Q6: Can you transfer control of a minion

No, there is no mechanism for this to happen

Q7: Can Shadow Pact create Black Onyx

Depends on the size and rarity of black onyx (currently unspecified). Shadow pact creates vegetable matter, metal or COMMON mineral (when heightened) (Creation spell p326 CRB).

Q8 Vampires

You cannot play a vampire in PFS

First. I am assuming you are discussing the Ritual "Create Undead" which has both the "Uncommon" and the "Evil" traits (there does not appear to be any other spell to create undead)

Uncommon - Your character would need to get PFS legal access to the ritual which I do not believe is possible (either meet the unlisted access condition or have it appear on a chronicle sheet) (PF2 Society Guide - Player Basics)

Evil - An ability with this trait can only be selected or used by Evil creatures (p631 CRB Evil trait). You cannot play an Evil character in PFS (PF2 Society Guide - Player Basics)

Note: Untarnished reputation can take away the infamy of an action such as summoning an undead. Ongoing evil acts (probably something like keeping the Undead around) cannot be removed by Untarnished reputation (PF2 Society Guide - Infamy)

Greater Juggernaut wrote:

You have a stalwart physiology. Your proficiency rank for Fortitude saves increases to legendary. When you roll a critical failure on a Fortitude save, you get a failure instead. When you roll a failure on a Fortitude save against an effect that deals damage, you halve the damage you take.

You will take full damage if you *roll* a critical failure, just as if you had rolled a failure. If you *roll* a failure, you only take half damage.

You don't convert a crit fail into a normal fail and then apply the effect for rolling a normal fail.

Initially I agreed with this but then I read it more and I stand by my initial interpretation. When you roll a critical failure it is as if you rolled a normal failure. The sentence does NOT say "When you roll a critical failure, apply the normal failure effect." It says when you roll and the result would normally be a critical failure, the result is considered a failure instead. The result of the roll is treated as a normal failure which would then trigger the half damage

" Note that not all checks have a special effect on a
critical success or critical failure and such results should
be treated just like an ordinary success or failure instead." p10 CRB

==========

This appears to mean that unless specified a critical success/failure is treated like a regular success/failure

Thus, a critical failure would not trigger "cognitive loophole" since it explicitly excludes it.

"Certain Strike" appears to trigger with a critical failure since the specific rules do not exclude it. Remember that certain strike excludes ALL damage dice so it does NOT do minimum damage (i.e. where dice are considered to be 1s, instead dice are not counted at all),

"Greater Juggernaut" you will take half damage at the worst from a fort save (since critical failures are treated as regular failures)

"Greater Fortitude" I cannot find. Great Fortitude just increases your proficiency

For PFS, waiting for L20 may not be the best idea. I don't see much content being made for this level any time soon.

I think a better item level target is 10 or 14 (thus making the character 8th to 13th level).

I expect leadership to follow the the PFS1e model of upgrades. I say this because if you read the CRB carefully, it describes the different versions of an item as an upgrade.

CRB, Page 534, Multiple Types wrote:

If multiple types of an item exist, the title line gives the minimum level followed by a plus symbol (“+”). The description includes information on the base version of the item, and the Type entries at the bottom of the stat block lists the specifics for each version, including the level, Price, and any modified or added abilities of the different types. For some items, the types listed are upgrades to the base item. For other items, such as aeon stones and wondrous figurines, each type is distinct from the others.

(emphasis mine)

Makes sense about the level. Remember that you are limited to your level UNLESS it is on a chronicle sheet (then it is level + 2).

Still means you are waiting for the top tier of many items (and almost no lower level) though. I will skip the googles of the night and wait for the greater goggles of the night (L11). On the plus side, levels 11 - 14 will be a huge power spike given the staffs that come online

In other words, the default method of upgrading (Sellback for 1/2 price) is the current method. So be it

It does put a chill on buying lesser versions of magical items given the new economy (I will not be buying anything other than the final item version for L20 of a build except for runes)

The reason I ask is that in PFS1 it explicitly used option 1 as a Society specific rule. I was wondering if PFS was going to use the Society specific rule for PFS 2

"To upgrade a magic item, pay the difference in price between the new item and the original item."

excerpted from Society FAQ

I cannot remember if there was a decision or not about how items are upgraded for PFS 2 (PF2.0 ruleset).

Example: Say I already have an animal staff which cost 90 gp and want a greater animal staff which costs 460 gp. which scenario do I use for the cost of the higher level staff:

1) 370 gp or the difference (460 - 90)
2) 415 gp or sell back lower level staff for 45 and then buy the higher level staff (460 - 45)

They work off your current level (it does not matter when you pick up the MCD)

You are not missing anything significant. Crafting in 2e is designed to not shift the WBL. One thing it could do is give you access to less common items

One thing to note is that earn income is dependent upon GM access to opportunity. Thus, it is possible that it would be more advantageous to craft a magic item rather than try to earn income in a remote area.

"... there are three main types: melee attack rolls, ranged attack rolls, and spell attack rolls ...

So, no Athletics in there.

The phrasing "three main types" shows that there are more than the three types enumerated. If the paragraph wanted to show that there were ONLY those three three, they would have omitted the word "main" and have it read "there are three types: ..."

The paragraph does not provide an exclusive, explicit, and exhaustive list of actions. It provides a description of the three main general ones.

Well, a trained animal comes with all the downsides associated with them, like not scaling at all and having to be commanded on a 1:1 action basis and needing a feat to not roll checks every time you want to move.

I agree it's a little odd, but no odder than, say, a trained horse being able to move faster in an encounter than a horse companion and that's pretty clear in the rules too.

Interesting - a bonded animal can get 3 actions a turn I believe while a minion is limited to 2 ( I could see being an invisible wizard with ventriloquism using the animal as a "battle form" instead of polymorph)

Laran wrote:

The Ronyon wrote:

So if one used Bonded Animal,Train Animal,or Inveigle to tame a Giant Bat or Wasp, could you ride them while they are flying,or is there a rule that prevents this?

A Wasp would be cool, because you could feed it sugar or molasses, and hunt alongside it with a Daze cantrip or poison dart blowgun, and help your girl spawn new wasps with their Implant Eggs ability.

No - If it is being ridden, it cannot use the Fly speed UNLESS it has the Mount ability. That is why I mentioned that Mount allows you to use speeds other than land. While the rule below references Animal Companions specifically, it would be unexpected if it didn't apply to other animals

"If it is carrying arider, the animal companion can use only its land Speed ... the mount special ability ... ignores both of these restrictions" p214

I guess it applies,though I would like to be certain.

To sidestep this issue somewhat,a flying animal could carry a character, without the character being a rider.
Call it an air chariot or cloud carriage.
Good for overland travel, not so good for combat.
I'm seeing a culture of nomadic gnomes with wasp companions, tiny ones as familiars, medium ones and larger as transportation.
They live in paper hives, magically treated to be fire resistant,and all of their weapons are envenomed.

Back closer to topic, get a climbing harness and let your animal companion carry you by it to avoid the riding restrictions.
Ditch animal companion to get a bonded animal of any size.
The downside,a bonded animal will not scale with you, so it will eventually get shot out from under you.
Finally, reskin a horse to be another animal.

Biggest issue in my mind with a bonded animal is that it does not get the minion trait (random animals can be picked and discarded and will almost always have better AC, Better HP, better Attack, Better damage than a Companion so that might balance it out). It starts becoming better with Savage/Nimble and Specialized. I miss the feats for ACs in particular since they are now mostly just cookie cut spiky clubs that move

Laran wrote:

While the rule below references Animal Companions specifically, it would be unexpected if it didn't apply to other animals

I think that's a pretty big assumption. The rule is in the animal companion section and specifically only mentions animal companions. Even in the glossary the mount trait describes itself as giving bonuses to animal companions.

As written it appears that you can fly on a mount if that mount isn't an animal companion just fine.

That might not be the intention, but it seems strange to put the rules in the animal companion section and specifically call out animal companions multiple times if they're meant to be a general rule.

I can see your viewpoint but I think it would strange for a random animal to be significantly better than an animal companion when used by a PC

(all weights reference males)

Light Horse (think Light cav/Mongol horse archer) weight 400 - 500kg
Brown bears weight 200 - 600kg
Bengal Tiger weight 200 - 300kg
Draft Horse (wagon puller) about 800 - 1,000 kg (Some hvy cav units will use draft horses but the normal medieval heavy cav were likely closer to light horse around 500 - 600 kg)

You are not the only one able to post random facts :)

So if one used Bonded Animal,Train Animal,or Inveigle to tame a Giant Bat or Wasp, could you ride them while they are flying,or is there a rule that prevents this?

A Wasp would be cool, because you could feed it sugar or molasses, and hunt alongside it with a Daze cantrip or poison dart blowgun, and help your girl spawn new wasps with their Implant Eggs ability.

No - If it is being ridden, it cannot use the Fly speed UNLESS it has the Mount ability. That is why I mentioned that Mount allows you to use speeds other than land. While the rule below references Animal Companions specifically, it would be unexpected if it didn't apply to other animals

"If it is carrying arider, the animal companion can use only its land Speed ... the mount special ability ... ignores both of these restrictions" p214

You can ride pretty much anything (bigger than you). It does not have to have the Mount trait. It will not buck if it trusts you

The Mount special ability does only two things:
1) Allows the mount to use movement other than land (e.g. Fly)
2) Allows a mount to move and Support on same turn

My reading of the spell is that it causes the standard frightened condition. It acts like frightened from any other source with the special condition that the standard end of turn reduction can never drop it below 1 while in the area

Thus, it does not immediately cease when you leave the area. The only thing that happens when you leave the area is that the normal reduction of the frightened condition at the end of your turn can drop it below 1. This also means that enemies do not lose the condition until the end of their turn if they leave the area

This would be useful to add to the system question thread (if that is still being looked at)

Related thread :)

My understanding is Yes.

The Form spells provide special "statistics" or VALUES for various attributes, skills, functions, etc which are used while in the form (e.g. Attack, AC, etc). Note, statistics refers to the actual value of an attribute/skill and not the attribute/skill itself (i.e. you have a statistic of +9 in something). These special VALUES can only take the mentioned modifiers (circumstance bonus, status bonus, and penalties)

However, the Form spells specifically state that two of those special values can be replaced with your own values (Attack and Athletics). The spells do not say that your own values are limited to those modifiers only that you cannot apply modifiers such as items to the SPECIAL default VALUE. The presence of the default value ensures that the battle form has a good baseline always

It should be noted that the values for Attack and Athletics are static in the spell while the AC (which cannot be substituted) scales. This is important since being able to use your own values instead of the special values ensures that carrying an Animal form in a level 2 slot continues to be relatively useful as a battle form even when you have level 3 and level 4 slots available. (Discussion where the spell values are almost always better than what you can have elsewise tend to ignore that option)

It looks like that. While undead tend to be immune to Unconscious, that is a specific condition.

In my opinion, yes (change from previous thought)

"Animal companions can’t use abilities that require greater intelligence, such as Coerce or Decipher Writing, even if trained in the appropriate skill, unless they have a specialization that allows it." p214 CRB

This entry implies that Animal Companions CAN use abilities that do not require greater intelligence (Coerce has the linguistic trait). Thus, there seems to be no restriction on commanding the animal to use Shove, trip, or disarm (since they do not require explicit greater intelligence). Some DMs may require you to train the animal in actions other than the basic ones listed under Command Animal. This interpretation also makes the Bear's ability of Intimidation useful since none of the basic actions in Command Animal allow it.

The AC errata has increased to +3 the maximum item bonus to armor class

Animal Companion specifically Bear question

The bear appears to be unable to use the Intimidate skill it is trained in to demoralize an opponent.

It appears that by the rules, the bear cannot be commanded to use the Intimidate action to demoralize. If it can use the skills it is trained in, does that mean that it can also use the shove action (or the Disarm) since it is trained in Athletics

*EDIT* The rules appear to say that animals can use any action unless it needs a high intelligence such as with coerce. Thus, they appear to be able to Long Jump, Shove, Swim, TRIP, DISARM, tumble thru without needing the support benefit (renders Knockdown advanced maneuver slightly less valuable)