What Can be done with Minions?


Pathfinder Society

***

So I'm trying to build a necromancer in legal PFS;

First, Can your minions have minions?

Second, Can your minions give you infamy?

Third; Can your minions earn downtime?

Fourth ; When I create undead do I build from the ground up or do I take the prebuilt as automatic minion?

Fifith ; does the atone ritual get rid of infamy in PFS Legal?

Sixth; Can a spell caster give a creature to you or give one to them and can they make them a minion?.

Seventh; Can you use Shadows pact and make a black onyx for a ritual?

Eighth;How many vampires can one vampire control before an uprising?

Final: if anything is illegal in PFS 2e let me know and point it out with page numbers makes it easier and I'd rather learn how and why thanks.

Scarab Sages 3/5 **** Venture-Lieutenant, Nebraska—Bellevue

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I'm going to assume from the last sentence that you are referring to PF2 (vice PF1). Given a few of your terms, (minion, infamy) I suspect that is correct.

You're going to have a hard time creating a necromancer in legal PFS. There is no Create Undead or Summon Undead spell in the CRB that I found.

To your questions:

First - minions are defined on page 634. I don't see anything preventing your minions from having minions, but I suspect the action economy would make that hard. The summon XXX spells require 3 actions. Minions as defined only have 2 when you command them (or sustain your summons). I suppose if you found something in the beastiary that could summon with two actions ...

Second - minions only do what you command them. As a PFS GM, I wouldn't let you skate on Infamy because you had your minion do something. You might find more lenient PFS GMs out there.

Third - summon spells have durations of 1 min. Not enough for downtime. Downtime is a PC only activity.

Fourth - At this point, all the summon spells use core beastiary monsters. Certain class abilities might provide adjustments. I doubt PFS will open the door to building new creatures from the ground up.

Fifth - Per the guide, you can remove Infamy by spending 12 Fame.
Otherwise, Untarnished Reputation is a all-factions boon you can also buy to reduce Infamy. CRB-wise, the Atone ritual doesn't mention infamy (a PFS concept), but it could be updated in the guide at some point.

Sixth - There are no rules for transfering control of creatures / minions.

Seventh - I don't see a Shadows pact in the CRB. But get the right crafting skills ...

Eight - I don't believe this will be a PFS issue on the player side.

Final - see above.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Shadow Pact isn't legal (yet).

Even if it becomes legal, that's a 13th level Feat. The highest PC you could have right now is... 6th?

The Exchange 1/5

First. I am assuming you are discussing the Ritual "Create Undead" which has both the "Uncommon" and the "Evil" traits (there does not appear to be any other spell to create undead)

Uncommon - Your character would need to get PFS legal access to the ritual which I do not believe is possible (either meet the unlisted access condition or have it appear on a chronicle sheet) (PF2 Society Guide - Player Basics)

Evil - An ability with this trait can only be selected or used by Evil creatures (p631 CRB Evil trait). You cannot play an Evil character in PFS (PF2 Society Guide - Player Basics)

Note: Untarnished reputation can take away the infamy of an action such as summoning an undead. Ongoing evil acts (probably something like keeping the Undead around) cannot be removed by Untarnished reputation (PF2 Society Guide - Infamy)

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Rituals are not common which means they are not available to characters immediately. They have to be found. This would prevent a PFS character from performing them. Also, rituals involve have more than 1 caster. This also would prevent a PC from using them.

So your hope of being a Necromancer with minions is not possible at this time.

The Exchange 1/5

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So while there is no way to be a necromancer in PFS2, the question of whether you can be a MinionMeister is different.

Q1: Can minions have minions?

There is no mechanism currently for non DM creatures to explicitly create a Master-Minion relationship outside the familiar/AC/Summoning system. It is possible for a non-PC to use a spell such as Dominate to create a permanent non-minion relationship but that would require the non-PC to use the 10th level spell version and get a critical failure (which would mean that they are very high level).

Q2: Can minions give you infamy?

Mostly yes. Non-sapient minions will only do what you command except to defend itself or escape obvious harm. This means that the only way they can perform a wantonly evil act (infamy), is if you ordered it. Sapient creatures will act on its own if left alone for 1+ minutes (typically) (p634 CRB Minion). PFS guide says that you accrue the consequences of Hireling actions (PFS Society Guide Faction Boons). While it does not specify minion (hirelings are not minions), it would be logical to assume the same since hirelings and minions only do what you command

Q3: Can minions earn downtime (assume you meant earn income)

PFS Society guide specifies that the "character" gets down time (PFS Society Guide Organized play basics). There are no rules for anyone else

Q4: Do you take prebuilt undead or ground up

See above. Creating undead can only be done by evil characters and you cannot play evil characters in PFS

Q5: Does Atone remove infamy

No. Atone allows you to repair your relationship with your Deity.
Infamy is a problem with your reputation within the Society regardless of deity. Infamy is a Society specific mechanism which has a Society specific solution (untarnished reputation).

Q6: Can you transfer control of a minion

No, there is no mechanism for this to happen

Q7: Can Shadow Pact create Black Onyx

Depends on the size and rarity of black onyx (currently unspecified). Shadow pact creates vegetable matter, metal or COMMON mineral (when heightened) (Creation spell p326 CRB).

Q8 Vampires

You cannot play a vampire in PFS

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Texas—Austin

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Creation wrote:
You conjure a temporary object from eldritch energy. It must be of vegetable matter (such as wood or paper) and 5 cubic feet or smaller. It can't rely on intricate artistry or complex moving parts, never fulfills a cost or the like, and can't be made of precious materials or materials with a rarity of uncommon or higher. It is obviously temporarily conjured, and thus can't be sold or passed off as a genuine item.

Bold for emphasis. Even if you could take this feat, even if you could create onyx with it, even if you had access and could use the create undead ritual, you can't use it for a rituals material components.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Having played a Dhampir Necromancer in PFS1 myself, my suggestion for (likely) the next several years would be to find a group of players who are interested in meeting regularly for a "PFS1 Campaign" and utilize all of those rules for the time being.

Or shelve your PFS2 idea until (likely) several years pass before all of your options open up via Boons and new source material.

Even with my character back then, I had to wait and watch until I could put something together that I was truly happy with.

1/5 *

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Or shelve your PFS2 idea until (likely) several years pass before all of your options open up via Boons and new source material.

Hopefully this one won't take several years. If the OP is lucky, they will get enough of what they need from the APG release. ISTR they mentioned a necromancy spell that would make temporary undead minions, very similar to how summoned creatures work now. As for ancestry, I believe Damphyirs will be introduced in that book as well. That will likely be locked behind the ACP system, but if you play other characters and GM between now and then, I'd expect you'd be able to unlock it once the system goes live.

If that's enough for you, great; I predict that you'd be able to have that before the end of the year. If not, then yeah, you are probably in for quite a wait, and might be better served by a home game.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ** Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver

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The title of this thread really needs to be changed. I'm gonna start yelling in really bad minion voice "Banana!" soon.

***

Alright I'm glad everyone is helping with this;

So let's make sure I've got this straight and explain with more detail of what I'm trying to do.

Yes I am talking about PFS 2E

I Know this is going to be hard to make that's what makes it fun

I'm not trying to have an army on a whim, nor am I trying to play as a dhampir or vampire, I'm trying to have Four Minions some who earn more money and some who will help me fight.
For vampires if you give up some of their power you can give them a different alignment instead of Chaotic evil I'd make it neutral.

First, for the ritual books I would need to find the uncommon for the vampire if available.

Second, Can I keep that vampire from scenario to scenario,like a druid with an animal companion?

Third, if a character commits an evil act they gain infamy(you can use rituals because your familiar counts as a secondary spell caster) you would gain one infamy from the ritual you can have a maximum of three then your character no longer is playable in legal PFS 2e.

Fourth, Where did you find the rule set that makes shadow pact illegal ( thanks for letting me know) and I can't use it for rituals
( *uck) Also for minions they can't earn money even if they have crafting?

Fifth, highest level is 5.1,(1/5/2020) I won't be starting to create undead until thirteenth level.

Sixth, vampires can make more without another ritual by donating their own blood and putting a ceature in the Earth for 3 and nights & days.

Seventh, (Banana!); Finally the minions with their own minions would work so long as it's vampires and as long as we have consent of the people to turn them into vamps which avoids a crap ton of infamy.

Final, please point out anymore issues and thanks for the help


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Aside from the previously raised issues, one thing to keep in mind, is that infamy is one of the things were the guide explicitly gives the GM the final authority to judge whether your behaviour consitutes an evil act "worthy" of being awarded infamy.

Organized play guide, chapter GM basics wrote:
Still, the GM is the final arbiter on what constitutes an alignment infraction and when Infamy is gained by a character at the table.

With the generally bad rep that necromancers and similar types have, you'd probably have to carefully pick the GMs you play with and make sure ahead of time that they're okay with your ideas, otherwise those infamy points might add up to three fast. And there's no route to appealing a final arbiter's decision.

Also, as currently written, the "no Player vs player" rule in the guide technically only actually prevents attacking other PCs, not minions. So while I'm not at all convinced that it is intended to be able to kill another player's minion against their will, for the time being you might need to carefully pick a table with compatible other players, too. I can see a number of characters where "kill the undead", or even "death is better than slavery" might be a totally non-evil, non-infamy gaining notion.

Of course, if you wish to play a character that only works with select GMs and select PCs, than that character concept might be better off in a non-public home game...

Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

The most important factor here is that you are never going to get the rituals to create specific undead in PFS2 play unless the devs just totally screw up.

You can't turn a player character into a vampire because it would remove them from PFS2 game play at that point. It doesn't matter if they're willing or not, creating any undead is an evil act and would trigger an act of infamy.

As Albadeon said, your ideas are best suited for a home game of Pathfinder 2, not Pathfinder Society 2.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Christian Fleury wrote:
Where did you find the rule set that makes shadow pact illegal

Other way around. It hasn't been announced as legal yet.

In Organized Play, options aren't legal unless they've been cleared for use.

Archivesofnethys is Paizo's official SRD and tells you whether an option has been cleared for play.

Shadow Pact has not (yet). It may never be. We don't know (yet).

1/5 5/55/5 *** Venture-Agent, Online—VTT

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Nefreet wrote:
Christian Fleury wrote:
Where did you find the rule set that makes shadow pact illegal

Other way around. It hasn't been announced as legal yet.

In Organized Play, options aren't legal unless they've been cleared for use.

Archivesofnethys is Paizo's official SRD and tells you whether an option has been cleared for play.

Shadow Pact has not (yet). It may never be. We don't know (yet).

I really would not recommend using Archives of Nethys for that, to people. With PFS1 and SFS, it is sometimes wrong, and the Additional Resources page (or character options section for PFS 2E) is the source that actually matters for determining whether an option is society legal. AoN is right most of the time, but carries absolutely no weight.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

It's Paizo's official SRD.


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HammerJack wrote:
AoN is right most of the time, but carries absolutely no weight.

Official Paizo Announcement

Paizo Blog wrote:

Big Pathfinder/Starfinder Reference Document News!

Thursday, September 13, 2018

As a fan and a community advocate, you grow attachments to things you wouldn't have ever imagined you would. One of the projects I've gotten the opportunity to make my mark on at Paizo is neatly nestled into that fan/community/design challenge niche: the Pathfinder Reference Document. As it became obvious in this last year of architecting and laying out the plans for the future of paizo.com, and as the time increased between that "last updated" date and our resources began to shift course, a problem arose that we needed to solve: how do we provide our community a free, up-to-date online version of the rules for our games? Well, I finally get to share the answer with you all!

Paizo is pleased to announce that Blake Davis and the Archives of Nethys will be maintaining the Pathfinder and Starfinder Reference Documents!

As an official licensed partner, the Archives of Nethys includes setting-specific rules content as well as Open Game Content, so you'll be able to find the Golarion- and Pact Worlds–specific rules you're looking for quickly and easily.

Eventually, these reference documents will become more integrated into the paizo.com website, but for the near future, we will be redirecting PRD and SFRD requests to the Archives of Nethys website:

Pathfinder Reference Document: pfrd.info
Starfinder Reference Document: sfrd.info

***

Thanks for the advice and help with my questions, last part and thanks for the patience.

I'm not trying to turn anyone's character into a vampire just NPCs who have died and are okay with it. I'm just trying to see what kinds of undead can be made if at all possible. Also you can use create undead in legal play so long as your infamy does not reach (3), and these books can be found but it would be in specific locations (Evil Churches)(Evil locations) & (Tombs) at GM's Discretion

So each GM is different and I'm not trying to abuse or misuse if a GM disagrees that I can't use a vampire in their games but another one does I'll happily go back and forth between using undead and not using undead.

Finally,

So long as they abide buy the rules

If you are a GM PFS 2E would you allow one of your player's have an undead minion;

If your a player or non GM in legal play PFS 2E would you allow it

Thanks for the help

Grand Lodge 4/5 ** Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver

I would definitely allow it if the specifics/rules were shown to me. The only problem I have is a player controlling more than one minion. In 1e we were only allowed one companion, creature, or cohort. If a player was controlling more than one, it bogged the game down and took time away from other players.

I couldn't find anything in the PFS2e guide about being limited to only one companion.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Quote:
I'm trying to have Four Minions some who earn more money

An option that lets a PC earn more money is the surest way to tape a giant "ban me" sign on it.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Christian Fleury wrote:
Also you can use create undead in legal play so long as your infamy does not reach (3), and these books can be found but it would be in specific locations (Evil Churches)(Evil locations) & (Tombs) at GM's Discretion

You seem to be under the impression that these rituals are the sort of thing the GM can just drop in to a module. That's not how PFS works. As I understand it until there's some PFS legal adventure where the rituals you want are made explicitly available there isn't a legal way for your character to get it.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Nefreet wrote:
It's Paizo's official SRD.

It is the official SRD but it is not the official source of what is legal for K

Organized Play. That is still the Paizo website (for 1e and SFS) and the floudation guide for 2e. AoN is not prefect. They are good. I use them.

But should always check the Organized Play offical locations.

I know Nefreet knows this. I just used his post because it was handy.

Hammerjack is giving good advice.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The amount of human error inherent with any website makes Archives as accurate as the current Guide.

I do remember a time before they became the official SRD, and things were not updated as quickly or as accurately as they are now.

I recommend using Archives to my players now, because it is Paizo's official SRD.

I actually looked just now to see if I could find the Additional Resources list within the current Guide to Organized Play, and I could not. Until we receive a better Guide, or at least a search function, Archives > Guide.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

Nefreet wrote:

The amount of human error inherent with any website makes Archives as accurate as the current Guide.

I do remember a time before they became the official SRD, and things were not updated as quickly or as accurately as they are now.

I recommend using Archives to my players now, because it is Paizo's official SRD.

I actually looked just now to see if I could find the Additional Resources list within the current Guide to Organized Play, and I could not. Until we receive a better Guide, or at least a search function, Archives > Guide.

Agree that AoN is a good resource. All I am saying is to check the Organized Play to be certain.

Since we are being clear for new players, 2e doesn't have an AR yet. Nor does the Guide for either 1e or SFS have an AR listed in the guide, it is on the Paizo website.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

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rooneg wrote:
Christian Fleury wrote:
Also you can use create undead in legal play so long as your infamy does not reach (3), and these books can be found but it would be in specific locations (Evil Churches)(Evil locations) & (Tombs) at GM's Discretion
You seem to be under the impression that these rituals are the sort of thing the GM can just drop in to a module. That's not how PFS works. As I understand it until there's some PFS legal adventure where the rituals you want are made explicitly available there isn't a legal way for your character to get it.

That's it in a nutshell. He absolutely must have the specific ritual to create a specific type of undead. The ONLY way to get it is if the Devs screw up and put it on a Chronicle Sheet or approve it for PFS game play via the sanctioning system.

Now, let's also be aware of something that is going to be an integral part of PFS2. To acquire most if not all of what will be sanctioned, it will have to be acquired via the accumulation and expenditure of Achievement Points (AcP). That's another check on the Devs passing through something like this.

Again, what he wants is applicable to a home game, not a PFS2 scenario. I can tell him right now as a VL and GM, that if I see something like this show up, I'm going to ask for verification on a chronicle sheet. PFS2 GMs cannot approve a player gaining something like this without it being on a chronicle sheet or officially sanctioned.

Let's fact it, PFS2 was built to prevent something like this from happening. The gating of items, abilities, equipment, spells, etc. behind the Uncommon-Rare-Legendary tags serves a very useful purpose in my opinion when stuff like this comes up.

1/5 5/55/5 *** Venture-Agent, Online—VTT

CrystalSeas wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
AoN is right most of the time, but carries absolutely no weight.

Official Paizo Announcement

Paizo Blog wrote:

Big Pathfinder/Starfinder Reference Document News!

Thursday, September 13, 2018

As a fan and a community advocate, you grow attachments to things you wouldn't have ever imagined you would. One of the projects I've gotten the opportunity to make my mark on at Paizo is neatly nestled into that fan/community/design challenge niche: the Pathfinder Reference Document. As it became obvious in this last year of architecting and laying out the plans for the future of paizo.com, and as the time increased between that "last updated" date and our resources began to shift course, a problem arose that we needed to solve: how do we provide our community a free, up-to-date online version of the rules for our games? Well, I finally get to share the answer with you all!

Paizo is pleased to announce that Blake Davis and the Archives of Nethys will be maintaining the Pathfinder and Starfinder Reference Documents!

As an official licensed partner, the Archives of Nethys includes setting-specific rules content as well as Open Game Content, so you'll be able to find the Golarion- and Pact Worlds–specific rules you're looking for quickly and easily.

Eventually, these reference documents will become more integrated into the paizo.com website, but for the near future, we will be redirecting PRD and SFRD requests to the Archives of Nethys website:

Pathfinder Reference Document: pfrd.info
Starfinder Reference Document: sfrd.info

I am aware that AoN is Paizo's official SRD. That does not change the fact that when there is an error and AoN does not line up with the AR document on what is society legal, the AR document is the one that matters.

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