Laki7z's page

PossibleCabbage wrote:

One thing about the familiar issue is that I'm sure you can construct a familiar that is useful using the existing familiar abilities, but if you have an idea about what your familiar is and what they're like then it might be difficult to make that familiar useful without changing that concept.

Like if your familiar is literally something you wear, then you pretty much are just getting the extra focus point, spell slot, and cantrip and calling that a day.

The familiar is useful. It's not a net negative. Extra focus points and spells are nice.

It's forgettable. When I have a player who forgets he has a familiar and has done so for nearly every witch since he tried his faerie dragon in battle, it makes it seem like an unnecessary class feature. It seems familiar should do something more to make it so that if you forget them, it would feel like you lost something.

If a caster forgot his spells, he would feel badly. If a barbarian forgot their rage, they would feel badly. If a rogue forgets his sneak attack, he would feel badly. But if a witch forgets their familiar, they feel no loss of performance.

That makes a familiar seem like some tacked on feature that doesn't have a real effect.

Isn't this thread the proof that people do feel a loss about forgetting their familiar.

Familiars have had too long a tradition to just be there as a passive boon, but pf2 mechanics tried to change that into something more active, and perhaps more engaging.

But I have to say that when the illusion of choice is so clear, it's not well designed (lvl 2 feat choices).
First lesson should be free, later could be feats, similar to domains for cloistered clerics

Just to have it said, something (evil) witches can do effectively. They can send in their familiar and cast final sacrifice, the next day, the familiar is back!

I'd prol allow chaotic req instead if the witch knows the familiar is comming back and the Patron said it's ok.

Witch have some flavour around it people like, but comparing inspire courage for bards and witches cantrip hexes, we can see what cantrip was made better. Still, single action cantrips should not be looked down upon and spells such as wilding words feel like a good place to flavour that the animal (or plant etc.) just avoids attacking the witch.

I can hope for good familiar abilities as all the balance went in to the familiar in addition to the hex cantrip.

The playtest is what led to lessons become feats, they were a feature at first

It isn't necessarily money you a offering - the gold cost of a ritual is the cost of materials required for a ritual. This probably includes fancy candles, little statues, herbs, incense, animal sacrifices, etc.

It's not like you are just piling up a heap of gold and praying it away.

Historically, this was pretty standard in religious rites before the advent of Christianity (which instead just asks for money).

In the case of Abadar, it probably is just a lump of money *joke*.

(This part have nothing to do with you Tendrils)
But I really like the idea to fit the cost to the deity. Besmara wants looted money dumped in unreachable water, Abadar might want investment in trade or their guard force + taking a fee for himself, sarenrae to donate and spend time with those who needs it, Norgorber in poison, dumped around the city, etc.

Comitting anathema should not just be a "sidequest" and be forgiven but it could solidly be a part of the whole thing. Comitting anathema should be hard to do and seen as something extreemly hurtful to the deity, such as raising undead as a pharasma cleric, even if you just allow it passively.

Just imagine being betrayed, would you even speak to the one who betrayed you?

There so much of each saying the same thing over and over. The current system is balanced in the way pf2 likes it's balance. Keeping stuff that are harder actually harder, but removes sillines as climbing up a rope and fail. As I have played for quiet sometime, I can say I am surprised how often assurance helps in certain situations.

I even decided that if something is fast, not difficult to do and that PC have the perfect assurance, I won't even bother them asking for a roll, just saying "your assurance makes you know this or you are capable to this". This includes craft check to see if a bridge is walkable, identifiyng striking weapons when you are lvl 6, but at times when failure matters, I ofc ask players to choose if they use assurance or not. There are so many hidden good combos out there and players will find them, like assured glad hand check.

Are effects from magical potions (aka, not alchemical elixirs) treated as spell effects to be valid target for dispel magic. Seems either like an oversight or just not considering it at all.

Some potions just say you become affected by [spell], others, like potion of flying say you gain fly speed.

I find it wierd that some potion effects are dispellable and others would not be due to the way they are typed (especially magical flight). If anything, it is dispel magic that perhaps needs to be redone.

I hope to get some answers to quiet down the rulelawyers I might know to be an issue

It's alot easier when you start playing than theorycraft the restrictions. It might not work sometimes, but most of the time, it will work. Like a Cayden champion crying over spilled ale, trying to save as much as possible, then if the one who spilled your ale is acting like a bully, you know that is his choice, so you punch him and the tavern brawl follows...

Champions are alot of fun and full of flavour
Fighters are blank canvases to be painted by its creator

Thank god this is a roleplaying game and not a combat simulator

Just gonna list some stuff

Rabbitfolk
Harpy (Dat flying might ruin this)
Beetlefolk (or other insectoid, with heritages such as mantis, cockroach etc.)
Ex demon, something like Nocticula but not a god
Ogre, so we can have a gnome riding you
A sentient Ooze/Slime
Tanuki
Minotaur

Reading some stuff here, I could agreeing on seeing something of a dragon origin

Large creatures will be assumably rare and with special sidebar such as with Tiny creatures and Sprites

Will there be any Deity, new or old, with a firearm as a favoured weapon?

Thrown firearm is such a trope, running out of ammo and just desperately throwing the pistol against the enemy, it's nice!

abit sad to see they kept versatile as is (assumably) but have to wait to see the final result.

It's like other classes won't get gunfeats according to some. There's alot of playable ways and reload weapons could just be added flexibility for some players. Some like the "gamble" if they are going to get 1 shot as investigators and rogues might use before going in melee. I am happy to see the way it goes and wish to see different support for different classes. There still is playability for the fighter and guns, as they gett heavy armour and point blank stance. Ranger will get precision and versatile. When versatile B affects, it does alot. Funny thing is more and more, I believe that bows should be nerfed (composite if not all bows should get smaller deadly die as example, dd10 are really rare in the first place).

Bows can even outperform melee with right builds as it stands.

Higher burst of damage have its own benefits vs high total damage.

Put firearm ace on rangers (most probably happening if not combined with crossbow ace)
use hunters aim, take running reload and you get the damage dealer. I am excited to see the final result. Remember that even bows and swords require feats to be optimal

Boy, did this escalate. I like that most agree on firearm ace.

Just gonna make a comment that I like the fatal trait on guns.

If you dislike it, use the blunderbuss

Giving all reload weapons +1 or 2 circumstance bonus might be a good balance allaround, maybe even per reload trait (making heavy crossbows somewhat viable and snipey, and make some heavy long rifles "viable"), limited to 1st range increment or not

Shooters aim is a bad feat too (because as written, it is a must take for snipers) however, I do have a feeling sniper weapons will undergo some change

Talisman dabbler archetype makes it easy to carry and "sacrifice" pistols with high damage output, atleast until lvl 10 ish.

Jezail would be better name for the sniper rifle than arquebus, and arquebus the "soldiers rifle"

I wish there would be less trash talk and more actual mechanical talk

Guns get versatile that should not be underestimated and I personally hope for a more logical and slightly better trait that let's gm choose the best damage type (between P and B)

Gunslinger is a support class with fast reactions, luck and cool tricks.

I just wanted to bring out the thought some might oversee

Rysky wrote:

Pumpkinhead11 wrote:

This is a Level 6 Fighter Feat and a Level 8 Rogue Feat. We already have abilities that do this very thing at this very level range.

No we don’t.

Throwing a weapon and it ricocheting back to you is not the issue with the feat.

That has been one of the most talked about issue with a number of posters; including this very thread. Ricochet Stance works very similar on a practical level as Rebounding Assault; the only exceptions i see are multiple range increments for RA as apposed to RS, the additional 1d6 to damage, and RA allows for piercing weapons.

So get rid of allowing Piercing Weapons and they end up being rather similar. Speaking practically, rather than literally of course.

If the problem is with the oddly loose, yet oddly specific wording, then i just haven’t seen many arguments of why that shouldn’t be, or isn’t expected to be, cleaned up. Maybe I’ve just missed them tho

@ Raven - you do have a point with RS being limited to Thrown Weapons specifically, but RA gives weapons w/o the thrown trait the thrown trait, limits them to 1-handed weapons, and half the range of normal Thrown Weapons; and all the 1-handed weapons in the CRB are 1 bulk or less(with two exceptions being Uncommon Advanced Weapons).

to disallow piercing weapons is to dissallow rapiers, probably of of the drifters popular weapons and what many in europe would play because of history.

Pistolero should be pistol/closerange pro. I like the visual fantasy of either using 1 pistol or having 2 ready when required and really like 'finish the job'. One thing pistoleros could get as they do get many reactions, is to draw 2 one handed ranged weapons (yea, hand xbows get some love too) as a single action. This would allow some of the fun special actions, be ready or whatever you choose, while quick draw is still there to just get out one more attack for 1 action (and works with knives, javelins etc). How I've used dualwielding is to have one main pistol ready w. Reloads or just not shooting. And quick draw n drop with of hand, reload or slow draw when required and MAP is high.

Can't wait to see some adventures in Ustalav (vampirechasing and using silver bullets against werewolves etc.)

I am confident the final results will be fine.

"Speedhacks" should be implemented carefully, applying missfire chance if used (reloading 2 for 1 is same benefit if not better than risky reload as an example, can be comboed with paired shots). Drawing weapons is a more 'finite' source (say 6 pistols to draw in a combat, or 10 for 1 Bulk).
I for one like that I have to plan my combat better and not just spam shots

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Make a Distraction sets it up, but requires CHA investment.

Yep, good callout, but it doesn't really improve the situation. Like Hide, Make a Distraction costs an action per turn, so the Gunslinger still can't use Vital Shot very often.

Sagiam wrote:

Smoke Screen gives you concealment, and running reload can be used with the sneak action.

Smoke Screen grants Concealment, but Concealment doesn't grant Hidden, nor does it make enemies Flat-Footed. That means you can't use Vital Shot, and you can't Sneak (Sneak does nothing unless you first have Hidden).

Laki7z wrote:

Or you know, have allies to set you up if you dislike hide action that much. They can trip, cast spells, use some other class features (swordcrit, aggressive block, unbalancing finisher as example).

That's true, but it feels bad to rely on teammates to pick up specific Feats (or crit) to enable one of your core class features. Especially since the easiest way to apply Flat-Footed, Trip, gives a penalty to ranged attacks.

Quote:

You can snipe with a pistol and use pistol twirl to feint

This still takes an action, so we can't use Vital Shot consistently. Using a pistol also goes strongly outside the intended theme of this Way.

Quote:

Starting hidden/undetected is not too hard

True, it's relatively easy to start the combat with a Vital Shot. Do you think the intent behind Vital Shot is for it to be used only once or twice per combat? That wasn't my impression, but if that was the designer's intent, this all makes a lot more sense.

trip does not automatically reduce your ranged hit chance, but prone condition allows to take an action to get greater cover.

You will have ghost shot at higher levels and shooters aim avaible too, risky reload and whatever to use.

Vital shot gives alot compared to other 2 action attacks and are balanced with flatfooted req.
Should perhaps stack similar to power attack on the bonus weapon dice, but the bleed is its strong point

Or you know, have allies to set you up if you dislike hide action that much. They can trip, cast spells, use some other class features (swordcrit, aggressive block, unbalancing finisher as example).
You can snipe with a pistol and use pistol twirl to feint

Starting hidden/undetected is not too hard

PossibleCabbage wrote:

The Mad Scientist's stuff explicitly doesn't work for anyone else though. So if you want a really high tech gun, the class for that is probably Inventor not Gunslinger.

There's a very big difference between lightning gun and revolver. If you want a Tesla style lightning gun because SCIENCE, then you should probably play an engineer. But a revolver is nowhere near that level of zany antics. Their existence is in fact canon for the setting already (or was in 1e, anyway), they were just comparatively rare in 1e.

if you are to bring up pf1 setting, they had a split setting, "emerging guns" and "commonplace guns" (and a few other). The latter had rules to involve revolvers but that was in a setting where pretty much all used guns. Gun rules were a mess in pf1 trying to appease all players and most of the adventure paths did not work in that setting. It's better for them to start low/early guns and add variant rules for those who just wanna do sixshooters.

Could even be in the same book

The golden standard in alkenstar is the musket as far fluff goes, Lirianne used 2 flintlock pistols (may she rest in peace) and was from alkenstar, the highest tech on golarion (numeria is looted tech)

setting can change to fit the gm and game of the players.

Reload 1 is just there to keep it fun amd balanced to play, they could make it reload 3 and give them some stupid out of balance trait so they did ridonculus damage.

I actually thought it would have a higher reload value, but the game mechanically works well right now

Just wanting to make some musketeer NPC and then it hit me, if someone, somehow uses deflect shot against a risky reload shot, it missfires so there is nothing to deflect. Just wanted it out there as this is even more fun than dodging a bullet to cause missfire (and drow can do that)

Had a small skirmish today, once without any benefits and once with +2 circumstance bonus to damage. Did it @lvl1 just to get the most basic feeling and had other players play. Without any damage boost, we had a poorly rolled damage on a crit dealing 5 damage against a 6hp goblin.

With a +2, it would be an autokill on a crit.

Average was about 2 hits to kill a goblin as round 2 did not get a single crit.

Then we add feelings, to crit and still do shit with a reload weapon felt crap for the player, and at one point rolling a 1 in damage for a normal hit, sure felt bad but was more in a feeling of bad roll.

Used dueling pistol for this simple test.

+2 damage on martial+ simple weapons or add a feature similar to crossbow terror the archer archetype gets at the cost for smaller HP pool (as gunslingers currently get without any "compensation").

I did try with firearm ace as is but damage boost tended to be forgotten and effect diminished at slightly higher levels.

This damage boost could easy be the multiclass dedication feat bonus. Bonus could be halved with 1handed weapons similar to how rage halves damage bonus to agile weapons as they will have often better "rate of fire".

I personally like reload as is giving it an air of a chess move (do this so this can be done), but not against getting small benefits later on (such as move and reload)

Schreckstoff wrote:

I prefer the Era of firearms in the current playtest for one.

Simple frontloaded firearms mix better with high fantasy settings than repeating ones to me.

I disagree. Muzzle loaded firearms don't mix well with fantasy imo, and really the gunslinger doesn't mix well with fantasy in general

how does a cowboy mix in better with fantasy than a witch hunter using flintlocks?

Why do other fantasy themed games succeed with muzzle loaders and are not mixing in mid-late 19th century guns?

And it is not like western fluff did not have an era with flintlocks/percussion oneshots (zorro etc.).

Alot of modern games skip logic of loadtime just because muzzleloaders fit with the theme alot better.

Take a dwarf with a "boomstick" in a fantasy group with a bard, a cleric and sword n board user.

We have moba game characters using muzzle loaders because it fits fantasy better
Now replace it with a repeater.

Capacity weapons should be more "experimental stuff" or stuff from numeria.

Just gonna mention reload times of firearms in vermintide, fast, unlogical and fun to use.

As in pf1, "advanced weapons" (era wise)
should be rare and in a certain setting.

Laki7z wrote:

I would just prefer if they removed it alltogether. There are martial firearms, there are no martial crossbows (yet).

I'd prefer alot more utility friendly feat or use point blank shot stance instead to achieve similar conclusion but simpler typed.

Firearm ace is so 'good' it is bad.

I don't quite understand what you are saying. My whole point is that it is so good and mandatory to be competitive, why not make it a class feature? Figuratively bolt it onto the class for free, since it will affect almost all weapons anyway.

How would replacing it with a weaker ability that you have to pay a class feat slot for improve the situation?

one thing we have to choose from in terms of balance are either class features or proficiency, well I guess time will tell. It is placed as a feat for a reason. I also dislike the need to have "these conditions need to happen that will happen anyway" trigger.

Now if you find it so mandatory and competetive, just put it on the survey, hitting more often tends to be good enough, add support characters and never miss.

Just dislike the "sugarcoating" and unneccesary complexity it brings to occasionaly have +2 damage and other times not just because of reload (or as suggested, when interacting to draw).

Excuse me for my rant.

Crossbow ace users might know

I would just prefer if they removed it alltogether. There are martial firearms, there are no martial crossbows (yet).
I'd prefer alot more utility friendly feat or use point blank shot stance instead to achieve similar conclusion but simpler typed.

Firearm ace is so 'good' it is bad.
Gunslinger should be about being grim, brave, cartoonish. Could be a feat just improving damage first shot, feeling good snipeing, acting first in a combat or quickly retaliating.

Could be a weapon damage die or circumstance bonus on the first shot in the first turn of an encounter. It would feel viable but not autotake

Okay, I might just be a tad to invested in this whole thing. Eh, doesn't hurt anyone but my sleeping schedule, so eh. Therefore, here are some more thoughts.

First off, something on the basic design of firearms and reload weapons in general. The current route - fatal instead of higher dice size + deadly - is a direction I definitely like. However, the downsides require just a bit more than "just" fatal. The action tax of reloading and a short range are a substantial obstacle that is not sufficiently overcome with just more damage if you happen to get lucky.

the range cut is benefited with versatile, as I can tell in the balance build and one that could be strong. I have talked how it could always do best type of damage in other places.

Classes that can benefit guns are mutagen alchemist (quicksilver mutagen)
Investigator (bad roll, well, I did not shoot)
clerics with correct domains could be viable as are others with access to true strike (archetype in true strike to gunslinger).

A rogue or ranger could have one, mostly as a reserve for bludgeoning damage or opening a battle.
I am just fishing and being creative.

The only class hatin guns are wizards

I also love return fire and dislike how pistoleros retort comes in the next level automatically

I'm not saying hair trigger is a great option either, I was mostly referring to my own experience, I was hyped about the Stealth Sniper type and thought Fatal Bullet would be great but even when you crit very often is just an extra die at level 16 when your crits already hit for at least 7 dice already.

I didn't save the calculation but Arquebus critting with only Greater Striking (less dice is better for the feat but of course we don't want less damage) so a normal hit is 3d8+8+2 (weapon specialization and firearm ace) and a crit 7d12+20=65.5 so 6.5 extra damage is just 10%. I think I found a gun that would do 12 % but I don't remember what combination that was. And with Major Strikingthis feat is less powerful.

Some playstyles will hate Hair Trigger because they want loaded guns at the start but even then other feats might be better.

And of course the last lvl 16 feat is by far the strongest... If you are in a campaign where enemies are shooting at you often.

I guess My opinion has shifted slightly to Fatal Bullet is meh and it should be lower level to be competitive, or better, we need more options at level 16.

Feats shouldn't increase basedamage too much, I mean firearm ace feels like a nobrainer 90% of the time. Sneak attacker feels good enough to take lvl 16 for some,1d10 or 1d12 at lvl 16 is what a "passive feat"should probably give. But I agree to prefer more active feats, but fatal bullet have its place and it is to not outperform deadly (in extra dice) but yet be viable choice compared to bows.

I like this one more than firearm ace as fatal bullet makes you want those crits more, by buffing, hiding, debuffing etc.

As a closure, it could make the weapon count as "keen" as keen is unusable by ranged weapons and work with a brace style play too

It is all up to playstyle. Fatal bullet helps other actions and kinda well with ghost shot. It is kinda supposed to scale with how deadly increase in nr of die, but choosing middleground and only one increase

Hair trigger would expose the undetected sniper.

It can be combined with sneak attacker if taken either by free archetype or other level, really going for one shot, one kill. If you want something dead, take a few buffs, stealth in and have good odds critting, and with ghost shot, you essentially become skyrim stealth archer good, add in goblin very very sneaky and do it in the open.

Maxing one shot is also good against resistant enemies even if just by "12%" (dunno the math)

Keep feeding your experience.
I tried a lvl 4 pistolero that quick draws and have potency crystals on the reserve when I need it, starting with 2 loaded pistols. I will intentionally skip firearm ace (for playtest data) as it should not be a feat. With quick draw, it is kinda incredible how much you can do and I even mix in some daggers for some cheap -8 map attacks. Later levels can save one of your main guns drawn for reactions (if expected) and quick draw more, or you can drop after the first round to reload more conventionally, often with moving.

Quicksilver mutagen is a hot take.
You will not always use your consumables but they are cheap enough to do occasionaly

Find your style, do your survey!

There are other stuff that handles other weapons. It would be alot harder to balance if it allowed archery or so I believe.

Later expansions are to be expected more focused or complicated.

Let us gunlovers get this one please?
I do like Xbow too
Slings are cool too
Playing technical and taking reload in consideration is nice, but having those daggers to throw if missfire ruins your style or even throw a rapier is possible!

Some classes might need to be more focused to be "fun"

If it is anything like last years playtest, the full rules will come with more ways, probably one maybe two more comparing with how swashbuckler got handled

Can I ask what the intention is with giving option for return fire level 8 and then level 9 give the pistolero "pistoleros retort". Sure, some minor differences but there are so many reactions to gain midlvl and so few to use

Return fire is so much cooler but feels like a waste because I am forced with another similar yet not similar feature the next level, unless they would get more reactions. Isn't it *the* dual pistol wielder/quick drawer after all?

Throwing the bomb would require 2 actions unless in your hand and trigger MAP and with (most often) shorter range. It could do with a change in damage but that would add a save

I guess gunslingers expect more risk/reward abilities in hindsight aswell, maybe add the splashdamage from the bomb so it matters what bomb is used. I guess I have to fieldtest it first, prol using as an opener or when weapon is loaded at start of the turn

As it is splash damage, it deals really alot, and for a single action to draw, throw, regrip and then shoot the bomb. That while being legendary progression class. This can be used "infinite" ammount of times with the cheapest bombs

It doesn't even have the attack trait so no increase in map, the boring part would be the need to reload as it have flourish so no risky reload. But running reload, quick draw, or just reload.

Imaging facing 3 swarms.

Acid splash and bombs have a really small splashradius

Other aoe are often spell slots or limited in a way.
Even in other scenarios, many enemies tend to have smaller hp pool, could be a cleanup after a fireball. It will be situational but sure to find its uses

I think the big difference is that a bow is going to leave a bigger hole than a bullet, but a bullet is going to hit where it hits harder.

I think it works well that guns are crit-fishing weapons, since "shooting someone in the eye" is going to be a lot more deadly (fatal even) than "shooting someone in the butt".

If a gunslinger's damage is low, then the solution is most likely "Give the class some damage fixers" (like the precision ranger edge, the swashbuckler's precise strike, the barbarian's bonus damage from rage, etc.) rather than fundamentally changing how guns work.

People who aren't gunslingers shouldn't be falling all over themselves in order to get their hands on guns. "I don't need no newfangled powder weapons, I can rely on my trusty [whatever]" should be a valid perspective for everybody else.

even unchanged, the dueling pistol will be the most damage dealing non-thrown one handed ranged martial weapon for other classes to use, and then can do massive damage on crits. If anything it is the compsite bows being abit overtuned. Guns only need a better variant of versatile (guns can't choose the way a bullet acts) to deal the most optimal damage

Why not give some firearms a quasi-propulsive based off half of WIS? Give some connection between being eagle-eyed and being extra accurate due to that kind of precision.

I remember when Dark heresy tried to add perceptionmodifier to the penetration of sniper rifles, so adding wis is not stupid and wisdom was the 2nd key score in pf1.

Adding half wis to damage could actually be part of the new sniper rule.

Then somehow, clerics and druids becomes wierdly good snipers...

I only mentioned dex to damage cuz rogues got it and gunslingers were the only one to get it on ranged weapons in pf1. I agree though that it should be avoided and that thief racket should limit it to light bulk finesse weapons but that is for another discussion.

There is no "easy way" to solve this

You don't need 2 hands holding a greatsword, but you need to hustle to regrip and wield it properly. Arquebus should be clunky on mount but not unusable. That said you kan keep holding it without sheathing, but need to take an action to be able to shoot again, and I am ok with that, we have pistols for a reason

Here me out, firearm ace is so good that all builds my players have done includes it. Probably because the other level 1 feats feels underwhelming but it does make the game in lower levels just be "strike, reload, strike. It is also less needed as there will be martial weapon choices in comparison to crossbows. If anything, this feat belongs to the ranger or be meshed in with crossbow ace into a reload ace.

What I am trying to say is that 'fireatm ace' is too good for its own good even if the class will not use it too often due to quick draw or similar.

One pistolero build went like this @ level 4
Firearm ace
Quick draw
Running reload

Turn 1, draw 2 pistols, shoot both, drop, quick draw a MUSKET, turn 2 reload shoot reload and cue in the rotation. Mostly because of firearm ace. Considered dropping the pistols higher levels just because of runes, retraining quick draw to risky reload.

If we must have a "flat damage boost" put in point blank shot or something else but I'd rather have this circumstance bonus be a part of the guns themselves or a class feature somehow. I want the level 1 choice be a choice.

On a ranger, firearm ace would be a choice compared to its other feats.

I have done 3 short scenarions and 1 slightly longer as a GM

Tripod should just be removed and used as flavour and steady action should stay active until you use a move action.

Fun thing is if you are prone, you get a -2 circumstance bonus and those do not stack with unsteady so you can take greater cover instead as something to consider.

And we have the twirl feat to feint.

Reload weapons should be about the feel of hitting and hitting hard and you know you are left out if you are with an unloaded weapon. We have 3 actions so reload 1 should not feel as bad as some think it to be. Rangers get their precision and with crossbow ace, feel like they accomplish something every hit, while an archer rolls a smaller die attempting to get more hits in. This makes feinting, hiding and other ways to get a boost to attack feel more important.

I'd rather see more feats and rules attempting to boost that single shot as vital shot does.

You get a totally different playstyle when you have to consider loading and while it feels as a tax, you can skip loading and do something else.

Load can be combined with some other actions but how to implement it, a feat for every 'hack'?

I can see hide and reload be a thing and maybe seek and reload as you wish not yo shoot something hidden (50% miss chance)

leave some fun for the other classes

My understanding was this was meant to be used only for drifters, hit with sword, then flurry. The feat is completely rubbish for dual wielding pistols. In fact there is no good way to dual wield pistols without abusing quick draw and doubling rings to ignore reload and just keep dropping a pistol after every attack.

I think this would still be very usable if the Reloading Strike feat at level 6 was not also a flourish. The fact you can only use one of them per round is what really kills the combo. Since a melee/ranged drifter benefits more from a free reload when he can't reload otherwise than from a free attack at -10 (or -8 with agile melee).

Then again removing flourish from Reloading Strike would let them hit 4 times per round, 3 melee 1 ranged. Even then I wonder if Rebounding Assault + Reloading Strike would be better by reducing MAP.

A feat should not be locked in to a 'way' unless the way is a prerequesite, and it is bad if for the hobby if the feat is good for only one type of play, in case if you missed the whole "illusion of choice" debate. This was a lazy feat stolen from fighter that works poorly for the gunslinger, and they got my opinion. Without press, this feat would give such a good opportunity to blast turn 1 for the brace of pistols type of guy

Why this comparison of bows and guns in a thread about sniper?

The major benefit of a gun is higher damage per shot and having 2 damage types, getting through shield blocks and damage resistance

Lvl 1 shortbow will do shit against those -1 level skeleton guard
An Arquebus will probably kill one on one hit, even if not critting, and even maybe thanks to the sniper rule adding up that 1 damage, it will be a kill 5/8 times, not counting crits. Every weapon will be for different occasions and sure, killing goblins, the bow might win.

If anything, I just want to remove that tripod as it feels confusing. Must I wield the tripod, set it up 1 action, draw weapon 1 action, voiding sniper deed, then use one action to put it on the tripod? That is just the "worse" interpretation. Add in how it is not clear if it breaks stealth too (as it is up to the GM with interract wich should be reversed, allowing interract but some interract might deemed stealthbreaking)

on to the question of this thread, sniper rule is ok but should be easier to follow and scale similar like deadly that a +3 weapon deals +3 damage.

Two-weapon flurry comes with the press trait. It also requires 2 (loaded) weapons to be wielded. The only way it can be used is if you start your turn wielding 2 weapons, striking once, drop, draw (without using quick draw) and then use the level 14 feat that either quick draw can do by itself or prefer to just use paired shots (level 8 feat) instead. This also skips your ability to use the pistolero deed "finish the job" so final shot is @ -10 MAP no matter what.

This can be solved with being quickened from haste or having two-weapom reload, but those are outside factors.

Pistoleros retort is not bad but abit boring and that deed could be used to perhaps allow to draw a pistol freely once a turn or allow to load 2 pistols at once. Finish the job could be a passive that kick in whenever you miss

[Edit] it could be used in melee but seems still odd to give press trait @lvl 14 without a fail effect. It has the flourish trait and can't be used with reloading strike

beowulf99 wrote:

For the Pistolero, I see them going more for a Pirate "Bandolier of Pistols" sort of feel rather than a wild west gunglinger with a 6-shooter.

Draw, shoot, drop repeat. "Ranged doubling rings" mean that you will only really be drawing with one hand, but in practice it's all good. I would like to see a special pistol brace that has a doubling ring effect on pistols on the turn they are drawn so that we aren't just juggling pistols with one hand, but meh, that's for later.

One problem with that approach would be that by the looks of it you need to spend an hour maintaining each firearm, so if you had 5 flintlock pistols total you'd need 5 hours a day of just maintaining weapons if you don't want misfires.

Hate to say it again, check the sticky thread, fixed, any number of weapons for 1h now

In response to OP, I would like to point out that in the playtest, Firearm Ace states: "You must make the attack before the end of your turn or these benefits are lost."

Meanwhile, Crossbow Ace is more useable: "You must make the attack before the end of your **next** turn or these benefits are lost."

I agree with the general consensus here, reloading is a big problem for the gunslinger, much bigger than a crossbow ranger who invests everything into fewer, more precise shots.

they fixed that part, check the sticky threads.

Firearm ace have the problem of not being useable with quick draw or first turn with a prepped gun

It is bad, should be atleast as the fighter's aggressive block where both options are bad for the opponent. I'd prefer if it acted against will dc somehow to make a foe stunned 1, immobolized or just pure prone as a fear effect.

Level 1 feats are currently quite boring and this is one that have a good potentional to be useful to avoid the autotake firearm ace

Another issue is that the much cheaper flintlock pistols can't be affected by firearm ace unless they add 'interact to draw the firearm' also solving the 1st strike issue. This is more of an issue level 2. 24g for 4 flintlock pistols, 48g for the same amount dueling pistols

On another note, does firearm ace increase the fatal die on simple weapons?

Could just be a shot with a -2 penalty that causes frightened or forces target prone. Or just use intimidate to trip one enemy within range, you know, suppressing the enemy. Could cause a hit on a critical success but that is up to the designers. They should try to use existing conditions

So why can't I just strike with my rapier in melee and shoot as part of "Rebounding Assault" and gain precision damage if both hit? Shoot the place you pierced, slashed or bonked? Maybe add a step afterward, using the momentum to reposition or get out of melee range. Now that is drifterstyle.

To add some image, you stab, then shoot, add a kick as you shoot.

Feels for the way and level 1.

Then we try to explain Rebounding Assault as it is now... I toss my nonthrown weapon perfectly, hit my target, shoot the weapon (as explained), to deal more damage and then it rebounds back to my hand perfectly. 10ft is just the range increment, could be done farther away. And that is for nonthrown weapon. Should be a feat as a bonus to normal a normal effect.

Many spells that kinda controlls a target does not give the controlled condition and lasts one turn making stubborn bonus effect forgetable.

Command and suggestion is a way too common occurance and something stubborn should help against somehow (can't crit fail or something)

just something I noticed planning a game for my lvl 4 players

The daily part is a bit odd.

11:51 pm. The gunslinger fires their gun for the first time, ending the combat. Everyone takes 10 minutes to rest and regain focus spells before opening the next door.
12:01 am. It is now the next day. The gunslinger now has a misfire chance.

Or, alternatively, the Gunslinger is in the Abyss. There is no day/night cycle. They now never need to clean their guns.

not really, as it have been clarified, this daily preparation could include several guns and is more proper maintenance. If you can't prepare your gun, your casters can't regain new spells, but you can still fire the gun but with a slight risk.

The only change I see needed now is arquebus needing a stabilize (skipping the tripod because stabilizing could be done fluffwise so many ways, just include the cost in the gun), aka stabilize once, keep stabile til you move.

Would it kill if you gave the arquebus deadly d4 with the fatal trait?

Could the martial firearms gain something similar to propulsive but for dex? (Pf1 tradition)

maybe increase the sniper to deal 1d4 against targets you are undetected to?

Dislike any flat damage increase and if anything.

I also hope to see a martial crossbow drop.

Why not just use backstabber trait instead of sniper? (This would make assassins able to bump the low damage boost it would give)

I'd rather see more traits on some guns rather than pure base damage increase.

Will say it again, as I posted on another thread, a new trait using the optimal damage type rather than versatile, maybe call it optimal B/P/S, that could work with other weapons too

This feat should be replaced with x number of gunpowder grenades per day with class dc and listed damage, or creating adhoc gunpowder bombs rather than forcing a gm to place a keg i every hard encounter to balance it.
Could be to even allow an adhoc explosive round with missfire chance to avoid x per day stuff or something, as it feels very situational now.

But the feat could keep the barrelshooting as a bonus effect to bump damage and dc for "larger area bursts"

This expansion release should have some rules for shooting/using explosive material for all classes (a rogue would like it probably)

Firearms might need a new weapon trait to replace versatile (and a trait I see downvalued somehow in this thread) with something like:
"Optimal B" this weapon deals B damage if it would deal more than normal for its type (P).
if the image of skeletons does not help, then try shooting some certain oozes.

And I just dislike all the hate on flintlock, some do really love em, just imagine a pistolero as a cavalier

I guess advanced weapons will be advanced proficiency.

I really like the lethal rules on them.

Just messed around at todays table and will have a real testing next week

I like the daily preparation and some fluff around missfire (add missfire chance if wet powder etc.)

some feats though just make it inconsistent and could be easier typed such as Risky reload: reload faster but you get to roll a missfire check (dc5)

alchemical shot should be the same or even be used similar to revelation spells of the oracle, "using this action fouls the barrel and adds a missfire chance until cleaned for 10 minutes" allowing maybe even more powerful feats that keep being balanced.

Most importantly, they should just keep it consistent to avoid confusion and rolling dc 5 feels better as a risk/reward than basing a misfire upon a fail effect. The DC could even increase if using such skill on a mistreated firearm