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The game is...pretty neutral. The city is evil, by and large.

He'll definitely be working behind the scenes. Both do, and they're somewhat opposed.


Just to be clearer on one point - the princess is a runaway. With the shift in power, her life is in danger, even though she has no claim to speak of. She's very young, and a bit naive, but beautiful and skilled as a dancer and singer...she's a low level bard.

Interestingly enough, I've already used some suggested scenarios. ;)

I'm really wondering what people would do with the (not dead) merchant prince, and my masked man...


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It's a huge, wealthy city, run by a handful of merchant princes from their individual strongholds. They tend toward lawful evil.

One among them, the star diplomat, a very old man with no competent heirs (no merchants of the capability required to maintain power) has been assassinated.

(Actually, his body double was. So far, nobody knows this.)

This was done to weaken the power structure of the city, as war is breaking out.

A hopeful 'next' merchant prince has been gathering wealth and power for years. He wears a mask to hide his identity, but he seems fragile. (He's an old elf.) He's hired the party to watch over a runaway from his home city, a young princess of a family that has recently changed heads and is fomenting the war. He is, in fact, quietly working against the city from inside. He hired the assassin.

It's a sandbox game, but has mostly been the party taking jobs as adventurers. It's set in a huge island chain.

This is meant to unfold gradually, so the party can choose their own path.

What would you do for adventures, as a GM, with this setup?


I'm still very open for any suggestions.


It really helps for you to clearly define your character. It seems especially true for the CN.

Is he crazy? This is acceptable,and can be an element of the alignment. (it can be LN, too, (extreme OCD,for starters) or any other alignment)

Maybe he worships chaos, and is an anarchist out of practicality - Hail Eris!

A favorite character of mine was extremely jaded, and did things for the experience, always looking for something new. Any given thing might be interesting, if there was a chance it was at all different.


TiwazBlackhand wrote:

An Atomie with a bunch of character levels.

Mouser swashbuckler 1 / eldritch scion magus (aberrant or black blood) X
Size diminutive, but with bloodline powers and the Longarm spell gets a 10' reach, can flank enemies whose square he's in, can move through and stop in enemies squares if they're size small or larger.

There's probably things that would make it even more effective, but that's a start towards a memorable and annoyingly effective enemy.

While I appreciate the input,this character isn't meant to be an "encounter" as much as they are a presence in the background. As the party tends more chaotic, and the campaign is a sandbox, they could end up working for the character against their home city.

At any rate, the CR means they would be a long time from being able to be a reasonable challenge.


One possible issue,especially if you have younger players, is adult themes.

It may not matter at all, depending on maturity level, but even many mature players prefer a 'fade to black' policy concerning some subjects.


VoodistMonk wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
Vivisectionist/Wizard into Arcane Trickster, especially with Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

Would you continue Wizard or Vivisectionist after Arcane Trickster? I know that's a silly question, as the obvious answer is probably Wizard.

However, I find Vivisectionist to be a really fun archetype, and picking up more levels in Alchemist is certainly appealing. To me, at least.

I really like the Sandman Bard for Arcane Trickster, especially with VMC Rogue... end up with 11D6 Sneak Attack at level 20. Grab standard Caster's Tattoos and make sure you have these traits:
... Maestro of Society
... Two World Magic (Acid Splash)
... Vagabond Child (Disable Device)
... Umbral Unmasking (Drawback)

I will be going back into Wizard - essentially a very stealthy Wizard. :)


Vivisectionist/Wizard into Arcane Trickster, especially with Accomplished Sneak Attacker.


Zepheri wrote:

For the Fey I suggest the wild hunt Archer/scout from bestiary 6 they are CN whit a cr of 13/15

As for the guards I have a question are the need to be fey, humans or elf? And are npc class, combat class or combat magic class?

If I use Wild Hunt,I'll definitely have to reflavor them, but thanks for the suggestion. Likely, the 'guards' (perhaps more like underlings) would be other fey, but I'm open to suggestions.


Building a fighter to be a monk is probably more complex than the monk in the first place, honestly. The brawler honestly is what you want, here.


Preferably CN, this being will be the antagonist for a war against the main LE society of my campaign - the 'home city' of the party.

The antagonist society - which this being has become a huge influence to - is mixed with humans and elves making the bulk of the citizens. I'll be taking the antagonist to CR 15-17, most likely, with a handful of CR 7-9 guards. This fey has recently come into power there.

The first aggressive act was taken by a privateer vessel, taking a magically enhanced merchant ship heavily laden with valuable cargo (owned by a merchant prince of the LE city). The campaign is set in a huge chain of islands. The antagonist fey was behind this capturing.

Ideas for the fey, and/or the guards?


Nice, Mark, very creative. :)


Wow...so many great ideas. I'm thinking something of a blend of a few of them - they're feeding a hag that feeds off of fear - in this case,induced nightmares, ala City of Lost Children. (fantastic film, btw!)

They found her almost dead,and fading quickly, but she's told them how to help her. She's slowly regaining power, but she's fighting a curse...


I have this idea, but I'm not sure where I'm going with it.

I want to use a gang of mites working with a few gremlins, kidnapping kids in a city...but I haven't figured out the why.

Help me flesh this out?


Let's do it again:

Roll:: 1d100 ⇒ 19 Suli
Roll:: 1d100 ⇒ 91 Aberration based humanoid
Roll:: 1d100 ⇒ 18 Oread
Roll:: 1d100 ⇒ 31 Duergar
Roll:: 1d100 ⇒ 17 Sylph

Hmmm...two elemental types and jann relatives. This has interesting possibilities...


I can see a temporary service as being more common than long term - they are chaotic, after all, and of course whoever they might serve would have to be of astounding power and offering something the wyrm wanted drastically, and had little chance to get otherwise.


I love Unicorn and Phoenix, but my little ratfolk Arcane Trickster will be using Eldritch Heritage: Shadow to get Shadow Well. So sweet.


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Avoiding rehashing points already made, you have your golem army of (how many?) and I have a standard army. How many troops can each golem expect to stop when my tactics are to simply avoid them?

You have golems at each gate in the city, so I use sappers and go under the wall. What now? Cavalry on the battlefield just goes past them...

You simply can't afford enough.


Mudfoot wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
Mudfoot wrote:
template wrote:
The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher

but not

The character must be able to cast spells with a caster level of 11th or higher.

So...Gnome 1st level adept / 10th commoner.

..is a 1st level caster.
Nope. At least not for these purposes. Because
gnome wrote:
Gnome Magic: ... Gnomes with Charisma scores of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome’s level.
So the gnome casts spells because adept, and has a caster level of 11 because 11th level. And if a gnome gets really, really bored (and as a 10th level commoner, he will), he might feel that bleaching is not enough.

The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level...

What caster level is he for the purpose of creating a phylactery?

1st.


VoodistMonk wrote:

You would probably want to be a spellcaster that didn't rely on spellbooks, preferably Charisma based, because Undead.

Say a Sorcerer...

What if you have the Imperious Bloodline and become a Lich before the level 20 capstone, but still reach the level 20 capstone?

This paradox can actually come up with multiple classes through various methods.

On a separate note, can the phylactery be a construct?

If so, could a level 20 Sorcerer with the Impossible Bloodline make his own body his own phylactery?

I see no reason why not, to all questions, but would think if the lich is his own phylactery, once he dies, it's pretty much over.


VoodistMonk wrote:

I really like the Blight Druid + Death Domain + Shade of the Uskwood feat + Agent of the Grave prestige class for an unconventional necromancer.

I used this combination to make a Wildshaping Incorpreal Lich. Lol.

For your target Challenge Rating, I would go 5 levels of Blight Druid and all 5 levels of Agent of the Grave, then add whatever template that interests you.

Nice. What are your thoughts on race?


Mudfoot wrote:
template wrote:
The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher

but not

The character must be able to cast spells with a caster level of 11th or higher.

So...Gnome 1st level adept / 10th commoner.

..is a 1st level caster.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
Any other ideas? I know avr isn't the only creative voice out there...

Well, what was the battle about? Was your undead commander on campaign or defending their home?

If they were on a campaign of conquest, then I see them marching on, cutting a path of destruction according to long-irrelevant military plans

If they were defending their homes, then the ground they control used to be their village or some crucial pass that must be held at all costs.

Maybe they were a scouting party; maybe they were carrying an urgent message or urgent supplies to somebody important, and if the party finds the descendant of the recipient of the message, then the undead army can have final rest.

All questions that could be tied into the commander, and things worth exploring, but as of yet undecided. At the moment, I'm just working on the commander himself, and perhaps that will help 'tell the story' of the battle.


Any other ideas? I know avr isn't the only creative voice out there...


VoodistMonk wrote:
All rituals leading to Lichdom should require the blood of infants!!!

Infant...what, though? ;)


zza ni wrote:

if i remember correctly old school lichs (and i think also 'demi-lichs' which were higher up the food chain even with that misleading name) could trap souls in gems-teeth (part of the process to change into a lich was replacing some of their teeth with gems) and as such had to have the ability to cast spells of that power level ( trap the soul in 2ed ad&D. 8th level spell).

i still have the hard copy somewhere around my house, but it's not in English so i can't really link a scan to it.

this wiki info page has a nice breakdown on lichs, along with some of the changes it went.

edit:
sorry remembered it wrong, it's part of turning a lich into a demi-lich that needed replacing it's teeth with gems. here is a link
" In order to attain the status of a demilich, a lich must have replaced 5-8 (1d4+4) of its teeth with gems. Each of these gems now serves as a powerful magical device which can trap the soul of its adversaries. The physical body of someone hit with the demilich's spell collapses and rots away in a single round. Once it has drained the life essence from the most powerful member of the party, the skull sinks back to the floor. If it continues to be challenged, the demilich can repeat this attack until all of its gems are filled. An amulet of life protection will prevail over the gem, but the character's body will perish regardless."

You're referring to Acererak, the beast of a demi-lich from the killer dungeon by Gygax himself, Tomb of Horrors.

That thing is multiple TPKs waiting to happen.


Meirril wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
It's partially a level of scale. 11th level is hardly a "scrub" in the world I run, where creatures in double digit CR tend to be somewhat rare. Humans of that level and beyond are also notably rare.

Every metropolis and most large cities in Golorian have a group of level 10-14 NPCs who rule over the city. They aren't exactly a dime a dozen.

But when you start talking about monsters, a CR 12 monster is a big deal to a level 9 party, a decent opponent to a level 12 party, and filler for a level 15 party.

Last I checked, Liches are used as monsters.

When you think of a lich, what other monsters do you put on the same pedestal? Do you think a lich is the equal of a Catobleps? A clockwork golem? A purple worm? Is a lich the direct equal of a roper? Those are all CR 12 monsters.

When someone says a Demon or a Devil attacked the village it could mean anything. The introduction of low CR outsiders shifted the nature of outsiders. It use to be that you'd only encounter those sort of creatures at mid to high level. Now you need to ask what kind of devil because it could be the town is being attacked by CR 3 devils that the guards might be able to defeat. Or it could be a Pit Fiend.

Hopefully Pit Fiend doesn't become a template.

Liches have really always been templates, even before templates. they're all individuals, and all of them were 11th level spellcasters at one time, whether or not they were liches then.

Don't get me wrong, I love the incredible earthshakers like the great classic liches, but not all of them need to be campaign end bosses.


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

Meant to write 'From 2e to 3e'. Typo.

Liches were originally 18th+ level casters. From 3.0 lichdom became available at 11th level.

All good. I'm old school, myself, started with the white box.


Lingering Performance will allow your bonuses to continue a while as you try some shots with the bow. It's very worth it, essentially giving you potentially many more rounds of bardic performance.


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It's partially a level of scale. 11th level is hardly a "scrub" in the world I run, where creatures in double digit CR tend to be somewhat rare. Humans of that level and beyond are also notably rare.


Believe it or not, it happens regularly in my campaigns.

In the mythic game, a rogue actually started an orphanage.

In my northern kingdom game, the paladin...well, he did a lot. The gnomish cleric started several businesses and even a bank. Hardly charity, but it did a lot for the kingdom.

In my latest game, they're only 3rd level, and mostly neutral, so it's pretty minor so far. They have helped to free some slaves, though...


avr wrote:
Depends. Do you want the players to feel any sort of connection to the druid? Then it'd probably help if the druid shared some background with one of them, race or otherwise. Do you want them to think of the druid as a terrifying merciless stranger? Then undead fey works.

Yeah, more of the terrifying...maybe not merciless, that remains to be seen...but yes, very much a stranger.

I actually like the idea that he might have some agenda he might recruit the party for. They're pretty neutral, and it might be interesting to give them a not entirely nefarious task.

I'm thinking maybe the theft of something of his previous life, something not just raw powerful, but an object of his desire, nonetheless.

...for which, he would agree to keep the mindless undead corralled.

I like creating unusual situations that aren't just solved with violence. ;)


Claxon wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:

It's clearly a typo, don't bust their balls (too much).

The 11th level prerequisite allow for the Lich to be used more often by keeping its CR relatively low.

If they were all 17th level/CR19+ monsters, they would hardly ever be used.

Not meaning to - I assume 1st to 2nd ed., but it threw me for a loop at first, and I was unaware of the change. What exactly is the change?

As far as I know, nothing really.

PF1 Lich RFequirement wrote:
Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
Lichs were always available at level 11.

So I assume they are in 2nd, also?


avr wrote:

The first thing to cross my mind was "what's the BBEG's motive?". The second was "why was forest growing up unnaturally fast?"

Put them together and the obvious answer is that BBEG was a druid of the anti-civilisation sort. It's just barely possible for a druid to raise and control undead - shade of the Uskwood feat, threnodic spell feat, either the fey spell lore feat or one of the archetypes which adds some mind-affecting spells. Efficiency doesn't really matter for this so it could work IMO.

I do like the idea - I've toyed with using maybe a Dread Morgh Druid - though the forest has had plenty of time to grow naturally. What race or creature might you think? An undead fey seems oddly compelling at the moment.

...not that Dread Morgh is carved into stone, either.


VoodistMonk wrote:

It's clearly a typo, don't bust their balls (too much).

The 11th level prerequisite allow for the Lich to be used more often by keeping its CR relatively low.

If they were all 17th level/CR19+ monsters, they would hardly ever be used.

Not meaning to - I assume 1st to 2nd ed., but it threw me for a loop at first, and I was unaware of the change. What exactly is the change?


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Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
a lich only has to be 11th level.
Yet another stupid change from 2e to 2e. Entirely pointless.

Ummm...huh?


Excellent.


I'm planning on using one of the Dread X templates from the Advanced Bestiary, not decided on which one; not sure what race or base creature yet; nor the class. What I know is something of his backstory - hundreds of years ago, there was a huge battle near an ancient ruin - he was one of the commanders.

He died there.

Through his will and the help of a minion (ex-familiar?), a divination ritual was corrupted, and he and some of his (now zombie and skeleton) troops have risen. Where there was once field is now thick forest, and it's quickly dying off.

A vile tower has risen (either due to his magic, or that of his demon lord or whatever), and undead flood the area (moreso as he gathers strength to raise them). His lieutenants are low level dread skeletons and zombies. He should be CR 12-13, just enough to utterly terrify my 3rd level players. Soon, corpsewights will rise...

I have lots of ideas as to what to make him...but I love input. He must be able to raise and command undead, of course, but other things might be under control of a fiendish master (who won't need to be present!).

The ritual happened in the presence of the (theoretically non-heroic) party. I'm doing this so I can have a brand new long term threat and a zombie outbreak. ;)

Ideas?


Java Man wrote:
5 days for every feature he currently has. So if he has uncanny dodge, but not improved uncanny or DR it is only 5 days. And if he has none of the features yet it is free to switch.

That makes a lot of sense, but is it strictly the rule? I think I'd run it that way regardless.


Fifteen, I'm pretty sure, but this is really a question for the rules forum.


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You guys are discussing great, powerful liches, the liches that define the name, but a lich only has to be 11th level. At 11th level, surely there is a rabbit hole, but it's nowhere near as deep. I had a lich who had his phylactery in a flooded cavern in a lake, guarded by a terrible sea monster, and then hidden in a nook atop a small cliff in that cave, with non-detection cast on it.

Doable for a lich of lesser power, but ultimately very difficult to find and deal with, for a party of appropriate level. It was an attack by the monster that finally led them to it, after dealing with the lich twice.


A few years ago, I came up with a character that was a blast to play, though I didn't get to play him long. I was inspired by Marilyn Manson, and created a dhamphir dirge bard using that inspiration. The idea was not to recreate Manson himself, but to mimic the creepy vibe he gives off, the random, carefree attitude, and the twisted sensibilities of the character he portrays.

He was very, very old for human society, and utterly jaded. He was CN, just looking for new experiences, and had lived around undead on and off, all through his life.


A ratfolk with scurrying swarmer can much more reliably use sneak attack.


Serpentfolk origins are Lovecraft. Lots of Pathfinder creatures come from or are inspired by his writings.


If one level of alchemist in a build counts here my little ratfolk Vivisectionist/Wizard/Arcane Trickster should end up being a blast. Using the mutagen for Dex, he's mostly about the ranged touch attack.


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sunderedhero wrote:
EldonGuyre wrote:
That Blood Intensity assumes a Cha of 40, incidentally.

Which is very easy to get:

18 starting out
+5 from leveling up
+6 from enhancement bonus
+10 from putting the 5 bonus +2's you get from 10 MTs
+2 from mythic Enhanced Ability (Charisma)
+5 from inherent bonuses from wishes/books/automatic bonus progression
--
46 without really pushing things

I wouldn't actually call that easy, but at any rate, I was simply being clear about it.


Mirth is an Arcanist, pretty high level, and Kevin Matchstick is a Magus, starting pretty low level, but climbing quickly.

...just wondering who's familiar.


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sunderedhero wrote:
An unexpected entry is dropping a handful of small rocks and casting Mythic Feather Fall using a sorcerer with the Orc bloodline, Blood Havoc and Blood Intensity mutations. At 20th level you'd cause 40 reflex saves each doing 20d6+40 save for half. Average damage to something failing the saves would be 4400, even if they make every save and you roll minimum damage that's still 1200 damage, more than enough to murder anything without evasion. That's all with very little investment, once you start adding in meta-magic, mythic Channel Power, mythic Abundant Casting and caster level increases you could easily break 10k damage.

That Blood Intensity assumes a Cha of 40, incidentally.


Melkiador wrote:
There are soooo many options for summoning. For summon monster 1, the eagle is best for almost everything. At higher levels it will depend on what you’re fighting and what options you’ve picked up, but the elementals are always strong in their suited environment and simple to run. Overall, summoning is best at low levels, but in higher levels it’s still a strong play style.

I may keep this in mind for elementals, then, if nothing else.

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