So i had it pointed out to me that i had misinterpreted magic item creation. Main feature being that i guess as rules written any requirements for magic items that are not potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items can just be substituted for a +5 DC to crafting.
--
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
--
So does this mean that the DC is increased by +5 for every spell level abe what can be used by the crafter, or just a one n done +5 no matter the gap from crafters highest spell lvl to the spell put in the item?
Same question for CL is the +5 DC for each CL above the crafters, or just a one n done?
If both are one n dones, what is stopping every kingdom from golem armies?
--
Iron Golem Creation Requirements
CL: 16th
Price: 150,000 gp;
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements: Craft Construct, cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, creator must be caster level 16th; Skill: Craft (armor) or Craft (weapons) DC 21; Cost: 80,000 gp;
--
So base DC 21 (DC=5+CL)
+5 for Cloud kill
+5 for geas/quest
+5 for limited wish
+5 for polymorph any object
+5 for CL
TOTAL DC = 46 Spellcraft
So any intelligent kingdom starts re-training it's smart people to craft magic items, on a kingdom scale the time n money to re-train low lvl people is dismal so ignoring that. Ideal re-train. Smart 5th lvl humans
Feats: Defiant Luck, Inexplicable Luck,
Crafts Wondrous Item, and Craft Construct
Max Skill points as a class skill
Intelligence score of 16
1 trait into spellcraft
1 apprentice for the aid bonus
So spellcraft bonus = 22 (8+8+3+1+2) with an average roll of '10' total is 32, which is still below 46...
BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!
Now considering that these crafters Craft Wondrous Item and a kingdom to foot the bill... Why wouldn't they have magic items that increase there Intelligence and skills.
Now add;
+15 spellcraft magic item (Craft DC=30)
And +4 Intelligence headband (DC=28)
Add these to the 32 on a 10 roll and...
BOOM 49!
Suddenly u have lvl 5 crafters making DC 49 spellcraft checks on a roll of a 10, that also reroll one Nat '1' a day.
Total time and money for build is under 20000gp and right around a month to 1.5 months (includes re-train time) then on to popping out an Iron Golem every 80days
Why the kingdom? Well because it's still crazy expensive to make a golem army. But when each settlement of town size or larger should b able to out put 1 golem with BP to spare, and a kingdom is usually made of at least 10 town size or larger settlements any kingdom that survives a year or two should have iron golem armies.
Kindly plz check my math n my logic with these numbers n thoughts.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
You’re using custom items and assuming people just suddenly becoming higher level mages are the easiest thing to come by.
And also ignoring how much Gold that is while also mixing in the Metagame constructs of BP.
1) Craft Construct
Prerequisites: Caster level 5th, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item.
2) The limit to skill bonus items is +10
3) A golem follows its last order or the direct orders of its creator.
Quote: Being mindless, golems do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics. A golem’s creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator. If uncommanded, a golem usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, though if attacked it returns the attack. The creator can give the golem a simple command to govern its actions in his absence, or can order the golem to obey the commands of another, but the golem’s creator can always resume control by commanding the golem to obey him alone. so your kingdom is equipping and paying someone to make one and then gives it to him, without a way to control the golem. Smart.
Give tanks to the general population to take home.
4) When the makers die the golem continues following the last order.
"Kill the enemies." It can't discern the enemies. It is a concept, not something factual.
"Kill those that don't don this livery." And the enemies don your kingdom livery.
And so on.
Try patroling a wall or a city with golems and you will see how badly it works. Having a troop of them march on a bridge (especially if they march in lockstep).
I can list several pages of problems, including the simple fact that if your army is made of golems I will attack you with an army of archers in leather armor and rust monsters. The archers will kill the controlling mages and the rust monsters the golems.
BTW: construction time is based on sale price, not crafting cost. Even with 10,000 gp of components crafting 1 golem require 140 days.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
FWIW golems are famous closet trolls; mounted archers with adamantine weapon blanch will slaughter your golems with zero casualties. They can be deceived by 1st level illusion spells. etc.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
It is my understanding that magic items are really expensive. You lose out on bang per buck in the long run. High level adventures are very rich, and therefore can afford expensive toys. Real world economics don't apply to them.
Longsword 15 gp
Masterwork Longsword 315 gp
+1 Longsword 2315 gp
+2 Longsword 8315 gp
You should be seeing a pattern here. For the price of a +2 Longsword, you could afford to arm over 500 troops with just normal longswords. Quantity of things is its own quality.
You run into the same problem with crafting golems. How many troops could you afford to equip with the gold needed to make an iron golem?
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
While a kingdom (even a small one) has a huge amount of money compared to adventurers, you don't need to spend it all on golems.
You can outfit an army pf peasants with Longspears and Scale Mail relatively cheaply, or a band of fully equipped high level adventurers will probably solve your problems for around 10k
As mentioned golem army seems like a good idea till you break it down. Then you've issues of cost, inability for them to deal with unexpected situations, issues of loyalty your enemies dont need to turn an army just the commader as they wont care they're now being ordered to slaughter your citizens, points of failure as all golems have the same weakness, potential retaliation from the inner planes as you need a sacrificed elemental for each golem, potential internal dissent (how can you trust a construct to enforce the law) and more.
They're better off deployed as guards in areas without large traffic or the like than as an army.
Like the others have said...cost prohibitive, finding someone able to reliably make them, time to make them, how easy it is to trick or destroy them, etc.
Certain settings have used the idea of creating automaton armies and such. The D&D setting Eberron and the Warforged is a good example. Started off as an army of mindless automatons, they tried to improve them to get past some of the shortcomings...next thing you know, they develop minds of their own, don't like the idea of being slave soldiers, bad things happen.
Behold my army of 5 iron golems! Cost 750000 gold and years to build.
Behold, my army of 10 composite bow archers with true strike infusions, many shot and like... 20 adamantine arrows each. Plus a bard. Oh and the 5000 warriors backing them up once the golems are dead. Cost about 8000 and a long weekend.
Although honestly it would be better to just WAIT that long weekend to have the other kingdom starve to death, what with all their money going into military spending and not the infrastructure of maintaining little things like the water quality of Flint Michi... oh uh.. I mean Flint Hills county.
Diego Rossi wrote: 2) The limit to skill bonus items is +10 Where in the rules does it say this? It is my understanding that there is no hard limit to skill bonuses.
Kind of the point of the Clockwork Soldiers really.
Cheaper, easier to control, less chance of running amok, easier to maintain
OmniMage wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: 2) The limit to skill bonus items is +10 Where in the rules does it say this? It is my understanding that there is no hard limit to skill bonuses. Effectively there isn't that rule in Pathfinder. Probably a houserule that has become so ingrained that I thought was an actual rule.
Several (but not all) magic items that grat skill bonuses require the maker to have 2x(bonus granted) in the appropriate skill and the skill-cap is 20 ranks (unless you use the optional rules to play above level 20).
Josh Piegols wrote: So i had it pointed out to me that i had misinterpreted magic item creation. Main feature being that i guess as rules written any requirements for magic items that are not potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items can just be substituted for a +5 DC to crafting.
--
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
--
So does this mean that the DC is increased by +5 for every spell level abe what can be used by the crafter, or just a one n done +5 no matter the gap from crafters highest spell lvl to the spell put in the item?
Same question for CL is the +5 DC for each CL above the crafters, or just a one n done?
If both are one n dones, what is stopping every kingdom from golem armies?
--
Iron Golem Creation Requirements
CL: 16th
Price: 150,000 gp;
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements: Craft Construct, cloudkill, geas/quest,...
Ok, so first, hello... welcome... sorry for the dry replies you just got.
now on to some real conversating.
So, first ill help you out on that +10 cap issue. You dont have Visualization of the mind. A pretty basic level 2 wizard spell that a level 4, let alone a level 5, wizard would have.
choose int and you get + 5 to int based skill checks (like spell craft).
Thats your 15, solid, done and done.
sorry they couldnt fathom this as an option. It should be an enchantment with an enhancement so they stack.
You could also probably include one bard with the doing some bardic inspiration but you dont need it with the math you gave. if you really want to you could probably throw in crafters fortune for +5 luck bonus and some kind of moral bonus... im sure there are plenty of things out there to crank that check up to where you want it and then some. Not only allowing a +10 dc for faster crafting but hitting higher DC's to clear the crafting time even faster.
A level 3 bard gives +2.
Make them human with heart of the field and with skill focus and now they have +16?
Hitting that high DC isnt an issue.
Moving past that.
so there are rules for fielding armies, its in the kingmaker suppliments, no cost to make and you only pay for consumption. if you have level 5's (or level 4's, it can be done) manufacturing this army then you should be able to create them using army recruiting mechanics and consumption will be next to nothing. The army will have a high stat block and movement will be close to the same between them and mages.
Diego Rossi wrote: Several (but not all) magic items that grat skill bonuses require the maker to have 2x(bonus granted) in the appropriate skill and the skill-cap is 20 ranks (unless you use the optional rules to play above level 20). Most items which require skill ranks only require equal to the bonus given. I remember I was looking up bonuses for something once, and there were only two items which gave bonuses above +10. One was based on grease and gave +20 to escape artist with no skills required by the creator, and I can't remember what the +15 one was now.
Of note for bypassing the construction requirements by raising the DC, Ultimate Magic contains this statement "Regardless, the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements."
Now, if the construct crafting rules from that book are not in use, nevermind, but if they are this puts a sizabale speedbump in front of mass produced golems.
Allied Spellcaster teamwork feat adds 1
Gifted Adept trait
Orange prism ioun stone adds 1
Magic Tattoo adds 1
Altar of Nethys adds 1 to a specific spell
A nearby cleric or clerics with the Arcane subdomain using the Arcane Beacon domain power (who must have at least 10 total uses per day between them) add 1 by activating it every round for the 1 minute casting time.
Spell Perfection Increases the Spell Specialization bonus by 2, the Magic Tatto bonus by 1, and the Allied Spellcaster bonus by 1.
I can go on but these are all side issues. literally not what the OP is asking.
probably the only relevant thing mentioned is timing for the math. I didnt math that because to me its super trivial. theres a lot of spell craft check increasing options allowing you to speed up crafting. You can probably get the time down to a solid 2 months or less per golem and you can get multiple people cranking out multiple golems. Since this can all be done by level 3 followers/citzens/whatever wizards.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Josh Piegols wrote: If both are one n dones, what is stopping every kingdom from golem armies? Sometimes it is various human, non-technical reasons like doctrine, politics, tradition, or religion.
Let's take an example from today. Why doesn't every country that can afford it have nuclear armament? Out of the top 10 richest nations, only 5 do. It's not for lack of money or technology as there are other nuclear weapon holders in the wealth rank 30-40s with far smaller budgets and less advanced technology.
This question is not intended to be answered by this forum (though some will enjoy it). It's supposed to make you think about why some nations that could build war golems don't build war golems.
avr wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: Several (but not all) magic items that grat skill bonuses require the maker to have 2x(bonus granted) in the appropriate skill and the skill-cap is 20 ranks (unless you use the optional rules to play above level 20). Most items which require skill ranks only require equal to the bonus given. I remember I was looking up bonuses for something once, and there were only two items which gave bonuses above +10. One was based on grease and gave +20 to escape artist with no skills required by the creator, and I can't remember what the +15 one was now. The Greater Shadow armor quality has been around since the Core Rulebook, so there is a precedent for allowing a competence bonus beyond +10.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Removed a post with a word we do not allow on our forums. There are ways to indicate you find something nonsensical or not to your liking that don't use words we ban on our forums.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Avoiding rehashing points already made, you have your golem army of (how many?) and I have a standard army. How many troops can each golem expect to stop when my tactics are to simply avoid them?
You have golems at each gate in the city, so I use sappers and go under the wall. What now? Cavalry on the battlefield just goes past them...
You simply can't afford enough.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Hmmm, that still leaves golems with the ability to hit hard targets with little or no mobility. So offensive siege/ castle assault. If your neighbors notice they might start asking why you are spending so much on weapons that are only cost effective for attacking settlements and fortifications.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
I know it's tempting to get golems, but... why not set for something cheaper? Have a kingdom with several clockwork soldiers on standby, literally. Have someone wind them once, and order them to wait in formation elsewhere while in standby mode, which doesn't count against their winding time.
Shinoskay wrote:
probably the only relevant thing mentioned is timing for the math. I didnt math that because to me its super trivial. theres a lot of spell craft check increasing options allowing you to speed up crafting. You can probably get the time down to a solid 2 months or less per golem and you can get multiple people cranking out multiple golems. Since this can all be done by level 3 followers/citzens/whatever wizards.
You can't skip the feats necessary to make the item. The minimum level to take Create Construct is 5th. So the minimum level of your head enchanter is 5th level.
Something nobody mentioned is that you can use assistants trained in whatever skill the main enchanter is using to create the construct. Those assistants provide a +2 bonus from Aid Another, and they should all be able to take 10 on that roll. Of course you have to pay for hirelings for the entire duration.
The duration is based on the market price of the item. That is 150,000 gp. So 150 days, 75 if you raise the DC +5.
Also there is the time it will take to make an appropriate iron statue. With 10,500gp in raw material involved, you're talking years with normal crafting. Get a caster that can cast Fabricate. Said caster doesn't even need crafting skills unless you want a fancy statue.
But if you want to use the Kingdom Rules for armies, you need to follow the same rules for building your army. That means paying BP to raise the army, and BP to maintain the army. Just like your PC can't form an army, your own personal possessions can't be used as an army either. And anything you convert BP to gold for is a personal expense.
Also lowering your kingdom's stability by -40 for withdrawing 80,000 gp from the kingdom treasury probably isn't a good idea. Especially if you do this every 3 months. That is what they call corruption.
Campaign I'm in, we're in the middle of a civil war, and just recently gained the capabilities to build war golems. Which we are going to do.
But we also realized what most people in this thread already pointed out: Regular living troops are much cheaper to train.
What golems will allows us to close the gap in is specialist forces - right now in particular we are in the middle of building siege golems for an important assault. Other ideas include burrowing units that can dig tunnels faster than people, or flying units in absence of flying monsters we could tame (we have befriended some griffons but there aren't enough of them to field an army)
We're also using the Kingdom Building army rules so the time is less of an issue. You pay the BP cost and get the unit, it is "assumed" people have been busy training/building for as long as it was necessary to get the construction finished in time.
Another thing to bear in mind is that an Iron Golem that does everything you hope it will do is still a single melee combatant with not that high a Move speed. There are several strategic and tactical objectives an army might have to perform, and an Iron Golem is good at achieving some of them. People were talking about taking out your Golems with mounted archers with adamantine-blanched arrows, but those Mounted archers can just bypass your Golems and attack every other target at will, literally riding circles around your heavy, slow army.
Diego Rossi wrote: A golem follows its last order or the direct orders of its creator. That would mean that on the battlefield, the creating wizard needs to be in close proximity to the Golem she created, and that creates inconvenience and tactical weakness. Unless the wizard commands the Golem with Whispering Wind spells? But aren't Golems immune to spells? And how does a Golem know that the Whispering Wind was cast by its creator?
Greylurker wrote: Kind of the point of the Clockwork Soldiers really.
Cheaper, easier to control, less chance of running amok, easier to maintain
Cheaper, but still expensive.
Maybe instead of a cohort of Iron Golems, you should just get yourself a single Adamantine Golem. The community seems to agree that it would make an admirable seige engine and shock trooper.
Lady Asharah wrote: Campaign I'm in, we're in the middle of a civil war, and just recently gained the capabilities to build war golems. Which we are going to do.
But we also realized what most people in this thread already pointed out: Regular living troops are much cheaper to train.
What golems will allows us to close the gap in is specialist forces - right now in particular we are in the middle of building siege golems for an important assault. Other ideas include burrowing units that can dig tunnels faster than people, or flying units in absence of flying monsters we could tame (we have befriended some griffons but there aren't enough of them to field an army)
We're also using the Kingdom Building army rules so the time is less of an issue. You pay the BP cost and get the unit, it is "assumed" people have been busy training/building for as long as it was necessary to get the construction finished in time.
I was thinking of running a campaign where someone creates a war golem, that eventually gets turned into armies of war golems that change the shape of warfare in the world. Invented by the Dwarven Wizard Mikael Kalshnikov, who created his elegant and simple war machine of wood and steel to defend his motherland, it became the most numerous military weapon in the world, growing all out of proportion with what he thought it would do...
Lady Asharah wrote: Other ideas include burrowing units that can dig tunnels faster than people, From what I recall, most creatures with a burrow speed don't leave behind a useable tunnel. You need to have people working with them to build supports and remove rubble to get a useable tunnel. Still faster than using pickaxes and shovels.
I am almost sure there is a way to make a construct with a riding compartment, like a mecha. That will give the crafter/controller a defended position during a battle.
If that option doesn't exist in the Paizo book and I have seen it in some third party book it is possible to discuss it with the GM.
You can build intelligent constructs too, but that has its set of problems.
animated object:
animate objects + permanency spell (15,000 no matter the size of object). add hardening for more hardness, make em out of weapons and you can add rune of durability to them.
also by raw weapons made out of Adamantine cost +3,000 gp more then normal weapons. size doesn't come into a factor here. so buy a Gargantuan greatsword made out of admantine (since 2 handed weapons are at the same size as their user. 2 handed weapon for medium creature is medium size) and have fun. (didn't pick colossus size as that would need a caster of level 32. unless i read it wrong).
caster need to direct the items, but beside that i would have him to ready to counter any dispelling spells aimed at the expensive toys in his turn.
Diego Rossi wrote: Lady Asharah wrote: Other ideas include burrowing units that can dig tunnels faster than people, From what I recall, most creatures with a burrow speed don't leave behind a useable tunnel. You need to have people working with them to build supports and remove rubble to get a useable tunnel. Still faster than using pickaxes and shovels.
I am almost sure there is a way to make a construct with a riding compartment, like a mecha. That will give the crafter/controller a defended position during a battle.
If that option doesn't exist in the Paizo book and I have seen it in some third party book it is possible to discuss it with the GM.
You can build intelligent constructs too, but that has its set of problems. Animate Object line of constructs gives you an amazing freedom to create anything your imagination allows. And much, much sooner than typical golems. Mechas, Flying ships, Tunneling vehicles, your imagination (and resources) is the limit.
As for creator being present to control the golems, people seem to be missing this line:
Quote: or can order the golem to obey the commands of another, Of course if the secondary commander is killed, the problem of a golem on auto pilot remains, but at least then the creator can reclaim control. I see no problem with creating a squadron of golems and magic ring then commanding the golems to "obey the orders of the bearer of this ring" to create a military unit.
You just have to make sure your golem crafter is REALLY REALLY loyal.
Lady Asharah wrote:
Quote: or can order the golem to obey the commands of another, Of course if the secondary commander is killed, the problem of a golem on auto pilot remains, but at least then the creator can reclaim control. I see no problem with creating a squadron of golems and magic ring then commanding the golems to "obey the orders of the bearer of this ring" to create a military unit.
You just have to make sure your golem crafter is REALLY REALLY loyal.
And prevent the enemies from taking the rings through theft or from the dead body of the wearer.
Actually, it seems a perfect job for some murderhobo adventurer: "Kill the Golem Guards and take their amulets, then order the golems to kill everyone they see."
The ring idea is almost exactly how a shield guardian work. The amulet of a shield guardian designates someone as its master even after the creator dies, and that is useful if the creator has a limited lifespan. But after the death of the creator, no one can contest the control of the amulet wearer.
"A golem’s creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator.", so if the creator wants to take back the control he needs to be in the danger zone, and I am not sure if he can tacke the control back from more than 1 golem every round.
Okay, i apologize for poorly pointing out that the tactics or effectiveness of the golem army was just to question if i had the magic DC stuff right, as well as show the absurdity of it if i was right.
Also golem army does not equal nukes it equals tanks, which yes by themselves have weak points but that's why they have other ground forces with them. Simple solution to the lack of self decision a golem has is to make it golem armor, similar to knights of old the trusted, and/or rich get golem mechs, if they go against the capitol the creators seize back control.
Sorry not trying to argue the tactics or effectiveness of the golem army, just how easy, with kingdom finances and longevity, it is to do stupid crazy stuff with magic crafting, and wondering why none of the pathfinder official games don't have crazy amounts of magic items around, especially sense a few +5s to the DC later, which is what i'm questioning, and a level 3 can start pumping out wondrous items with wish on them?
As an example of what can be made, I think it is much more impressive and efficient to make two statues of famous heroes with altars at their base, one that cast greater magic weapon and one magic vestment an unlimited number of times, both a CL 20, but only for members of the national army.
Net result, with an expense of about 432.000 gp at most (I wouldn't double the price as the statues aren't portable, so only 216.000 gp for the pair) your army has access to +5 weapons and armors/shields and if the equipment is stolen it reverts to normal in a day.
It is even possible to make portable versions (like portable altars) and have them move with the army.
Managing the logistic it is possible to have +5 weapons and armors for more than 6,000 soldiers at the same time every day.
It is one of the reasons why I don't allow the production of items with a CL higher than the actual level of the character.
Josh Piegols wrote:
Sorry not trying to argue the tactics or effectiveness of the golem army, just how easy, with kingdom finances and longevity, it is to do stupid crazy stuff with magic crafting, and wondering why none of the pathfinder official games don't have crazy amounts of magic items around, especially sense a few +5s to the DC later, which is what i'm questioning, and a level 3 can start pumping out wondrous items with wish on them?
There are a lot of different answers to your question. The main reason is because every city having a golem army doesn't fit the flavor of Galorian. Golem armies do exist in several of the cities. Nyx used a golem army against Absolom and his city is still guarded by a golem army. At least one of the Runelords used super-colossal Stone Golems that held a fortress inside it as border guards. One of the dungeons in the Rise of the Runelords AP is inside of the head of a destroyed golem.
If you look at Ultimate Campaign or Kingmaker AP following the kingdom rules you come to two different reasons why you would or wouldn't use a golem army.
If you buy and maintain your army with BP, then what you actually purchase is an army of a certain CR with a certain amount of members. Golems are generally good troops, but there are lots of reasons you might prefer different creatures at the same CR. Regardless of what kind of creature you pick, the upkeep is the same. Even if you make your CR 1 army from Orcs or Skeletons, they need the same amount of BP to upkeep. What does that BP get spent on to maintain the Skeleton army? Who knows? That is the rules!
If you cash out the BP to pay for a golem...that is a really bad idea. For every 2000 gp that you withdraw you create 1 point of unrest. If you need 80k for a golem...that is 40 unrest. Even 4 unrest is difficult to deal with for most kingdoms. 40 all at once will drive you into civil war.
And then you'll run into the problem of trying to match apples and oranges between player assets vs actual armies if you want to use them with the army rules. The heroes and their personal assets aren't suppose to directly impact the army rules. Otherwise a player wizard could directly nuke out most armies you run into.
And the final argument I'm going to throw up is: do you want to give control to an Iron Golem to some nobody that you hired to make it? Most knights aren't as tough as an Iron Golem. Does this mean to retain this Iron Golem you need to elevate the creator to the position of a Knight? If you want multiple golems, do you have the same guy make them all, or do you find and support multiple enchanters to each create and control one golem? If an enemy ever realized what you've done, how do you stop them from sending assassins to execute your golem creators? Or turn them to their side? For a kingdom, it is a lot safer to not have a mega unit that you might not be able to control. If you're talking about normal soldiers, turning a few of them won't threaten the kingdom.
My friend has a setting where a massive dwarven empire has entered into daemonic pacts and enslaved other races. Daemonsmiths meld spirit and steel into numerous war machines like fire-breathing cannons, tunneling worm-engines and enormous castle-golems.
Quixote wrote: My friend has a setting where a massive dwarven empire has entered into daemonic pacts and enslaved other races. Daemonsmiths meld spirit and steel into numerous war machines like fire-breathing cannons, tunneling worm-engines and enormous castle-golems. Sounds like Chaos Dwarves :D
Lady Asharah wrote: Sounds like Chaos Dwarves I said the same thing, but he's never read any of the Warhammer literature.
There was a lot going on; something about a war between the giants and the elves, dwarves and the first human tribes and how the giants used to commune with their ancestors for guidance but turned to demonic consultation in a desperate move to end the war, then the dwarves using those same pacts to turn the giant's newfound strength against them and enslaving then, and the whole deal being an elaborate ploy of the fae.
But yeah, if anyone's going to be fielding several animate war machines, it's the dwarves.
Meirril wrote: Shinoskay wrote:
probably the only relevant thing mentioned is timing for the math. I didnt math that because to me its super trivial. theres a lot of spell craft check increasing options allowing you to speed up crafting. You can probably get the time down to a solid 2 months or less per golem and you can get multiple people cranking out multiple golems. Since this can all be done by level 3 followers/citzens/whatever wizards.
You can't skip the feats necessary to make the item. The minimum level to take Create Construct is 5th. So the minimum level of your head enchanter is 5th level.
Something nobody mentioned is that you can use assistants trained in whatever skill the main enchanter is using to create the construct. Those assistants provide a +2 bonus from Aid Another, and they should all be able to take 10 on that roll. Of course you have to pay for hirelings for the entire duration.
The duration is based on the market price of the item. That is 150,000 gp. So 150 days, 75 if you raise the DC +5.
Also there is the time it will take to make an appropriate iron statue. With 10,500gp in raw material involved, you're talking years with normal crafting. Get a caster that can cast Fabricate. Said caster doesn't even need crafting skills unless you want a fancy statue.
But if you want to use the Kingdom Rules for armies, you need to follow the same rules for building your army. That means paying BP to raise the army, and BP to maintain the army. Just like your PC can't form an army, your own personal possessions can't be used as an army either. And anything you convert BP to gold for is a personal expense.
Also lowering your kingdom's stability by -40 for withdrawing 80,000 gp from the kingdom treasury probably isn't a good idea. Especially if you do this every 3 months. That is what they call corruption. You are incorrect on multiple points here.
A) Caster level 5 can be achieved before level 5... see my previously posted mention, here, of the many ways to increase spellcasting skill and caster level. its almost like you are cherry-picking what I said.
B) a pc can, in fact, form an army. I can't remember the specifics for this, its been a while since I researched it, but I recall an explanation of this. Even a level 20 pc would make a terrible army.
B.1) I also recall reading mechanics to convert a crew into an army.
C) you don't need hirelings when you have followers.
D) there are mechanics for converting your wealth into bp, per raw you'd probably have to convert and then convert back... maybe... I haven't read that part in a while either... but it's likely you can just say 'but gm, why make me do this podge triangle maneuver when I can just use my own wealth as kingdom wealth?'
pretty sure this solves or offsets the 40, even going by raw, but I could be wrong here.
Getting general caster level > character level (not just for a single spell or domain) takes expensive magic items. I think the most cost-efficient is a 20K 30K ioun stone for a +1. Since you don't get a feat at 4th level you're either getting an even more expensive magic item or retraining at 4th (takes another spellcaster with craft construct, which sort of defeats the point), or you're getting the feat at 5th level anyway.
If you have ~80K gold of your own to use I don't see any particular reason to get the kingdom's BP involved, no. The reason to try to use BP is that most people, even adventurers, don't have ~80K to burn.
Shinoskay wrote: You are incorrect on multiple points here.
A) Caster level 5 can be achieved before level 5... see my previously posted mention, here, of the many ways to increase spellcasting skill and caster level. its almost like you are cherry-picking what I said.
Allied Spellcaster works when you are casting a spell, not when selecting a feat.
Gifted Adept works for a single spell. Again, not when selecting a feat.
Mage's Tattoo aka Varisian Tattoo only works when casting a spell of a single school, not when selecting feats.
An Orange Prism Ioun Stone ... that actually should work.
Alter of Nethys only works when casting a spell. Not when selecting feats.
The only method from OPs list that works is the Orange Stone. That saves a whole level and allows a 4th level caster to retrain their feats so they can get craft poppet and craft construct. This also means rewarding your 4th level caster a 30,000 gp item for the entire duration of the retraining + the actual crafting process.
Meirril wrote: Shinoskay wrote: You are incorrect on multiple points here.
A) Caster level 5 can be achieved before level 5... see my previously posted mention, here, of the many ways to increase spellcasting skill and caster level. its almost like you are cherry-picking what I said.
Allied Spellcaster works when you are casting a spell, not when selecting a feat.
Gifted Adept works for a single spell. Again, not when selecting a feat.
Mage's Tattoo aka Varisian Tattoo only works when casting a spell of a single school, not when selecting feats.
An Orange Prism Ioun Stone ... that actually should work.
Alter of Nethys only works when casting a spell. Not when selecting feats.
The only method from OPs list that works is the Orange Stone. That saves a whole level and allows a 4th level caster to retrain their feats so they can get craft poppet and craft construct. This also means rewarding your 4th level caster a 30,000 gp item for the entire duration of the retraining + the actual crafting process. You are cherry picking again.
I presented there were more options, I just didnt bother to go through the whole list.
Shinoskay wrote: I can go on but these are all side issues. literally not what the OP is asking.
Shinoskay wrote: B) a pc can, in fact, form an army. I can't remember the specifics for this, its been a while since I researched it, but I recall an explanation of this. Even a level 20 pc would make a terrible army.
B.1) I also recall reading mechanics to convert a crew into an army.
C) you don't need hirelings when you have followers.
D) there are mechanics for converting your wealth into bp, per raw you'd probably have to convert and then convert back... maybe... I haven't read that part in a while either... but it's likely you can just say 'but gm, why make me do this podge triangle maneuver when I can just use my own wealth as kingdom wealth?'
pretty sure this solves or offsets the 40, even going by raw, but I could be wrong here.
While it is possible to make an army of 1 creature, it would be at and ARC of CR-8. The 'normal' size of an army is a unit of 100 creatures. A group of 1,000 CR 1 human warriors would stomp your golem flat since they would be 2 ARC higher.
And I think OP needs to re-read the kingdom rules. There is a huge difference between "Heroes generously donate to the Kingdom Treasury" and "Kingdom Treasury raided by Heroes".
BTW, the BP cost to get a 100 creature unit of CR 13 monsters is 6.5 rounded to 7 BP per week (28 BP per month). Compared to actually building them you'd be able to have this army fielded for almost 11 years. Most rulers would only choose to field this army when they are at war, so that 11 years could be split up between actual wars. You do waste 1 month raising an army before it can take action.
Of course, you could simply raise the army and not pay its consumption. That...actually has no effect on the Iron Golem army due to the mindless property. So your Iron Golem army could just be raised for 7 BP and ignore its consumption afterwards. if your GM allows you to get away with it.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Shinoskay wrote: Meirril wrote: Shinoskay wrote: You are incorrect on multiple points here.
A) Caster level 5 can be achieved before level 5... see my previously posted mention, here, of the many ways to increase spellcasting skill and caster level. its almost like you are cherry-picking what I said.
Allied Spellcaster works when you are casting a spell, not when selecting a feat.
Gifted Adept works for a single spell. Again, not when selecting a feat.
Mage's Tattoo aka Varisian Tattoo only works when casting a spell of a single school, not when selecting feats.
An Orange Prism Ioun Stone ... that actually should work.
Alter of Nethys only works when casting a spell. Not when selecting feats.
The only method from OPs list that works is the Orange Stone. That saves a whole level and allows a 4th level caster to retrain their feats so they can get craft poppet and craft construct. This also means rewarding your 4th level caster a 30,000 gp item for the entire duration of the retraining + the actual crafting process. You are cherry picking again.
I presented there were more options, I just didnt bother to go through the whole list.
Shinoskay wrote: I can go on but these are all side issues. literally not what the OP is asking. This is the entire list Shinoskay presented. There is no cherry picking here. Just a list of ideas that do not work. Before you go and post ideas how about double checking that they actually might work?
As for minimum caster level to get Craft Construct: don't forget that in addition to caster level there are two other PQ feats: craft wondrous (pq cl3) and craft arms and armor (pq cl5), so if any method of increased CL that relies on feats will get tricky to achieve before level 5 anyway. A human wizard has 3 feats available at level 3, so would need 2 bonus caster levels that require no feats. At level 5 when another feat (or 2) become available you qualify anyway.
well there ARE at least 3 archetypes that grant Craft Construct earlier then level 5 (without the need for other required feats):
Construct Rider at 4th level, Promethean Alchemist at 1st and clocksmith at 1st (but get 50% extra cost for non clockwork constructs. and as clockwork constructs ARE already at 50% extra...this is not the best economically solution)
Java Man wrote: As for minimum caster level to get Craft Construct: don't forget that in addition to caster level there are two other PQ feats: craft wondrous (pq cl3) and craft arms and armor (pq cl5), so if any method of increased CL that relies on feats will get tricky to achieve before level 5 anyway. A human wizard has 3 feats available at level 3, so would need 2 bonus caster levels that require no feats. At level 5 when another feat (or 2) become available you qualify anyway. You can also take craft poppet and skip craft wonderous and craft arms and armor.
Meirril wrote: Java Man wrote: As for minimum caster level to get Craft Construct: don't forget that in addition to caster level there are two other PQ feats: craft wondrous (pq cl3) and craft arms and armor (pq cl5), so if any method of increased CL that relies on feats will get tricky to achieve before level 5 anyway. A human wizard has 3 feats available at level 3, so would need 2 bonus caster levels that require no feats. At level 5 when another feat (or 2) become available you qualify anyway. You can also take craft poppet and skip craft wonderous and craft arms and armor. I somehow missed craft poppet, very cool option, thanks!
|
