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Glade wrote:

High dex characters struggle to reach the pinnacles of AC in this edition it seems, since both bracers and clothing have a max dex of +5. Still, perhaps a moderate AC is tolerable if you make sure to not be standing in melee regularly?

With Quick Jump and Cloud Jump he could be fairly mobile at level 15. Skirmish strike to get into flanking position, attack/trip then jump to safety.

I think that's a bit dramatic. They have the same AC is the best light and medium assuming all proficiencies are equal with heavy being one higher, trading speed and bulk for 1 AC.


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Captain Morgan wrote:


2) Whatever proficiency you have in simple weapons is also what you should have in unarmed, including the wizard. (Monk is obviously the exception as they are better in unarmed.)

If this one's confirmed that's amazing. It makes Rogue multiclassing monk viable.


Garretmander wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

Do people really think the 1e Cleric was a one-man-wrecking-machine? Really?

I mean, didn't the Warpriest come along because the Cleric couldn't keep up? Sure they had all the tools to be OP, but they didn't have the action economy to get there fast enough.

...what?

I'm currently playing a low charisma 3.5e straight cleric (ie: the worst possible 3.5e cleric build)

The 3.5 cleric (at least with low charisma) is in way worse a position than a PF1 cleric.

I am the most dominant player in that party, including a dread necromancer (to be fair, no tomb tainted soul), and a druid.

1e cleric was only second best to the wizard, and only at higher levels.

Almost everything about this post is the reverse of the metagame and in game play.

Pathfinder Cleric and Druid where the only 2 classes to get obvious nerfs going into Pathfinder because they where the 2 strongest in the game. Charisma was also a common dump stat.

3.5 Cleric had a lot of its buffs nerfed as well going into 3.5.

The 3.5 Cleric has access to some obscene support.

Point is you shouldn't be comparing the Pathfinder Cleric to one who had access to Divine metamagic, sun rods, domain feats,3.5 Divine power etc


Edge93 wrote:

And it doesn't even take that many feats. The combo I mentioned works with two feats and lets you use one of the highest-damage weapon strikes in the game while still doing plenty else with your turn. And it takes one action where a Cantrip takes two. Only making one weapon attack per turn isn't a bad thing like it was in PF1, either.

As for the investment in Str, its not that huge a deal. With how PF2 abiloty score boosts work you've still got plenty else to put into other scores even if you put as much into Str as possible.

And just to give a quick comparison on weapon vs. Cantrip for that build, using level 8 which is where the two-handed strike comes online.

Weapon, +15 to-hit, 2d12+6 damage (average 19).

Typical Cantrip, +16 to-hit, 4d4+4 damage (average 14).

(A regular hit from a Longsword without feats also has +15 to hit and does 2d8+4, average 13 BTW)

Even considering the -1 to hit, the weapon does about 30% more damage and only takes one action (yes the Cantrip is ranged and it gets +1d4 damage next level, but the weapon is still stronger). Even with no feats you have a nearly-equal attack for one action instead of two.

And all that said, if you're already in melee or you have Haste, you can do both!

An addendum to this, I'm not sure Bards have an offensive Cantrip besides Telekinetic Projectile and Daze. The former does use d6s for damage but also RAW uses Dex to hit (may be a typo), which means it has less accuracy. And Daze does 2d6 instead of 4d4 with a potential minor debuff.

So the weapon build here is still in a pretty good place.

You need 3 feats before you can take the half level multiclass. So you've severely hurt your ability to be a Bard.

You don't have a lot to spare. As a Bard you would aim for high charisma and dex, after that it's con and wisdom. 4 stats for the 4 boosts.

So what stat do you cripple for strength? Your ac and reflex, your hit points and fort or your will and perception?

It would be fling for 4d6+4, probably a typo but dex is the second most important stat for Bards. It will scale and requires no investment. But that's something to fall back on when you aren't casting spells and songs

As I pointed out this requires 75% of your feats and cripples one of your stats for an effect that doesn't come online until level 8 and scales terribly.


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It's a very weak option that requires a lot of investment. Look at the suggestions being given, hit "hard" once with a weapon after a huge investment in strength and feats or just use a cantrip for similar damage.

If it's done in the future it will most likely be an archetype that scales down spell slots for melee specific features.


Dr. Gero wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Dr. Gero wrote:
In the same sense of the Occult classes where psychic, I suppose.
you know, looking back, i don't know why i didn't understand what you meant.
in that sense, is it the "psychic" spell school? Like when we get the occult classes some day, isn't that likely their source of choice?

Of course, a lot of the Psychic specific spells are in occult as well as all the flavor, mind control, illusion,force and telekinesis.

But personally I think it would make more sense to make the Psychic an archetype for Sorcerer that uses Occult, maybe even wizard if they go for that mental library theme. You wouldn't need an entire class just for changing the components.


19 as the forgot the number to master at 7 if you are pushing athletics but I'm guessing this is for maneuvers so you would be silly not too.

Animal form is also 16 at level 7, not 18


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Temperans wrote:

(Classes didn't have so much bias for combat roles before, but meh some people will talk about all this bad feat taxes and math fixes, while applauding feat taxes and math fixes)

* btw I'm talking in general not necessarily about people in this thread.

Nothing could be further from the truth, if a class didn't have 9th level casting it was almost certainly built towards combat. Almost every class that had 6th level casting would also have a mechanic to greatly help in combat and then you had the summoner built for combat in a roundabout way.

Not being built for direct combat was rare.


Just flip to the back of the spells section and they are ordered alphabetically by class.


As for the whip comparison, it's dice is twice as big which matters a lot more in this edition. 2 hits from the same weapons with striking is 4d4 Vs 4d8 and the difference.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

A mean, a big thing about Cantrips is that they are literally free. You get them as spells known without additional expense, and they continue to upgrade them without spending money, unlike the archer who is going to spent at least 40,000 GP on their bow (likely much more) over the course of their career.

It would suck to play an archer if the cantrip blaster can be just as good as you at this with minimal investment.

How does the damage from blasting spells stack up to archers?


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Someone point we out using true strike on a staff for Spellcasters which is clever. That could work well if you have one big 2 action point attack.

A reroll is worth roughly +5 to hit.


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People are mentioning sub optimal choices in pathfinder 1st but those choices could be shored up because losing a bit of damage or to hit could be made up elsewhere.

That's far from the same in 2nd edition where +1 is considered a big deal.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Andarr wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Andarr wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Andarr wrote:
And they both took the nerf bat to magic to satisfy "martial" players and for the sake of "balance". Seriously? "Balance"? Is this a MMORPG? Or is this a pen and paper RPG?
It's cooperative game you play with others to tell a story.

That has always been the case.

I fail to understand why magic being, well, magic caused people such issues.

I would much rather they had gone the way "Tome of Battle" had gone, instead of nerfing magic.

1 character completely invalidating the rest of the group commonly enough was the issue.

And if you look over the Martial classes they are leaning into a ToB approach.

I seriously wish people would stop saying things like "the caster invalidated the rest of the party".

That statement is just blatantly false, and comes from either theorycrafting or poor DM'ing. But it was taken at face value and now look at wizards.

I mean... I could have (somehow) swallowed the pill if they had made it so you could use the heightened version of a memorized spell if you used a slot containing another, higher level memorized spell for it.

But you have to memorize it xD

Imagine. I am sure you will see plenty of people memorizing a heightened fireball... Or not. Because with three slots to memorize spells, I am sure you're going to waste one for it.

It is so NOT blatantly false. Oh I have the climb skill maxed out! Who cares I have mass fly. I have diplomacy! Yeah well I have charm, I have trap finding, Well I have a scroll of detect traps.

Wizards have way more then spell slots. Scrolls and wands are great for making up for what you don't want to memorize. With standard amount of money and planning you can handle most everything the rest of the party can do with scrolls wands and spell slots. A dm can curb this but now as a DM I have to play around the wizard.

This heavily upvoted post is theory crafting because I see the terrible "why use diplomacy when you have charm argument" so often. Not only does that not work in practice, it's bordering on suicidal.

The idea that being diplomatic can be replaced by robbing someone of their free will.

Party standing at court

Bard: Your majesty....
Wizard: Relax Bard (begins aiming a spell at the king)

As for mass fly the party has all gotten some method of flight on there own by then and traps are stopped by a 1st level wand let alone a rogue.


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Patron is not a huge deal for witch's, it's hex choice but having a quick look ancestor is a good choice for bless

As for hexes, Slumber is the bread and butter witch hex that makes the class more than a poor man's wizard and swamps grasp is fun battle field control.


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Temperans wrote:
Stage 1 kinetic whispers is basicly an evolutionless figment familiar.

One very important difference, if the kinetic whispers familiar gets destroyed you can just summon it again making it one of the best scouts in the game.

You send it ahead and when you stop concentrating it pops back into your head and let's you know everything its seen.


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I,m curious as to why you took armour feats, as a high dex character you would have equivalent armour wearing light armour as well as avoiding the penalty to skills. With the bonus from overflow and a dex item you should have very high ac. If you can see about retraining them for the extra wild talent feats.

Kinetic form is terrible, point of burn, lower ac, take up more squares so a bigger target and harder to move around, all for extra reach.

If you don't have a caster casting haste, then boots of speed are essential. That extra attack and accuracy from haste will massively increase your damage.

You should have 2 points in your buffer at 12, save them for when you can get a full attack on big threats. If you empower the kinetic blade/whip while hasted thats almost as much damage as 3 empowered kinetic blasts in one turn.

Take the extra wild talent feat for kinetic whispers and get a familiar that offers +4 initiative. Give it the sage archetype and you've suddenly got a genius in your head that can make all sorts of knowledge skills. You can also summon an immortal scout. All this for one feat. Improved initiative is considered one of the best general feats, this is fantastic.

As for that 3rd element, I would recommend earth. You will get the sand composite which means no longer needed to worry about cold resistance or immunity, get DR as you say as well as some strong utility in picking up burrow.


Given what you are using as examples then almost every class that isn't a full caster has some sort of ability that gives an ability that increases damage as you level.

Inspire courage, smite, rage, studied combat, judgements, precise strike and so on.

Most classes that aren't full casters are given some mechanic to help with attack damage.


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Derklord wrote:
This is why Synthesist, although significantly weaker than regular Summoner, is so often called "overpowered"

You will also get a lot of people like myself who really disagree with the idea that it's a lot weaker.

No shared item slot issues, more feats, but most importantly it's not an Eidolon shackled to a squishy Summoner, the Syntheist is unkillable and outside of very niche things, anything that challenges the Synthesist will make paste out of the rest of the party.


Traditionally Shadows are dumb undead that are only driven by hatred and hunger and are restricted to a specific spot. Just fluff it that being a free thinking Shadow means that they can only have X amount because they need to assert control or the Shadow will just go off and do whats in its nature.

LordKailas wrote:
It might be a bit excessive at higher levels but at 10th level (the 15 score), how useful are 12 3HD shadows really?

Frighteningly effective in a lot of encounters. That's 12 incorporeals going in making +6 touch attacks that do 1d6 strength damage.

You need to remember this isn't just some group of shadows waiting for the PC's, this is a shadow army that can be backed by PC hijinx.

You could carry them around in a bag of holding. That's actually a good idea for a trap, shadows in a bag of holding.


An NPC is not suppose to be as effective as a PC

Excluding maybe the very last fight of the campaign or some big mistakes being made, the players should always have a notable edge, if they didn't then its just a matter of when, not if they will get wiped.

If the players win 10 fights in a row, game continues,if they lose just one the fight is over. Highlights how much things need to be stacked in their favor.

From experiencing attempts at "countering" "optimized" players, they end badly. It's a lot easier to just say no to certain options.


Aether /air kineticist

You get to the point where the only moving you need to to get by is pointing your hands when you need to attack.

For everything else you can use at will telekinesis and flight to avoid any other physical effort

Take the elemental whispers infusion for a familiar that can speak and you don't even need to bother communicating yourself.

Take the snake infusion and you can attack enemies in other rooms


I don't know what they where smoking when they thought burn was an acceptable substitute for low level level spell slots.


Now normally I don't like the idea of using 3rd party but I'm currently playing a Kineticist in Giant Slayer, alongside an Arcanist, Alchemist and Warpriest . As we go on I notice a serious lack of magical item options, being a different mechanic they don't work with a a lot of the options other classes have and they have little support.

These are the options a well known Pathfinder 3rd party writer recommends, N.Jolly (possibly designed) and was wondering if they would be good additions as potential magic items?

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/kineticist-magical-items


avr wrote:

My opinion of PFS is that it's a small minority with an outsized influence on the game. There's no great reason for non-PFS players to pay much attention to it.

I'm sorry to hear that you find PF rules a nightmare. If you want further explanation feel free to ask specific questions.

Yes, mithral full plate is cheaper than I remembered and does outclass a breastplate - if not ordinary full plate.

That's all and good but me saying an option is "too op" isn't much of an argument. I use it as a benchmark of what to try and use, nothing against strong options but some are stupidly OP.

But if advanced armor training is an option player can take and not open to interpretation on whether it's allowed or not then the archetype is much better than I thought.


avr wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
avr wrote:

Link to the document for the top of the page.

My thoughts below and the existing rating in the doc to compare to them. I don't totally agree with the original as you may be able to tell...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

I considered taking the steelblooded archetype on a tanky Bloodrager build using the destined bloodline and reading carefully see it as a weak option. With one feat you can use mithral full plate with no downsides, counts as medium for everything but proficiency penalties which the feat takes care of.

Unless I'm missing something, armor training stacks with fighter levels for how high armor training gets but you don't count as a fighter for anything else. Armored specialization is based on how many levels of fighter you have.

On that last there's an argument that you do use your bloodrager level for abilities obtained via an archetype. Here's ErichAD on a similar argument for a sylvan trickster rogue - that archetype is essentially useless unless it can use its rogue level as the witch level for hexes.

Mithral full plate costs 16.5K even before enchanting it. It's not competitive on cost with a normal suit of full plate until quite late levels; it's not even better than a similar cost spent on a steel breastplate until you have 20.5K for armor alone. It's not a factor before 10th level IMO, and late levels there are fun unique armors.

That's progression of a given ability, now we are into the idea of trying to use the fighter classes options to trade away archetype features, never mind that some of the options you listed aren't PFS legal. This seems like a rules nightmare.

Mithral full plate costs 10'500. 1500 + 9000. A +1 Mitral fullplate at 12'500 would be cheaper than the equivalent +4 breastplate at 16'200 as well as being cheaper to progress from there.


avr wrote:

Link to the document for the top of the page.

My thoughts below and the existing rating in the doc to compare to them. I don't totally agree with the original as you may be able to tell...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

I considered taking the steelblooded archetype on a tanky Bloodrager build using the destined bloodline and reading carefully see it as a weak option. With one feat you can use mithral full plate with no downsides, counts as medium for everything but proficiency penalties which the feat takes care of.

Unless I'm missing something, armor training stacks with fighter levels for how high armor training gets but you don't count as a fighter for anything else. Armored specialization is based on how many levels of fighter you have.


I am Nemesis wrote:
Squeakmaan wrote:
As Pizza Lord said, you can justify anything to yourself. The problem is that torture is an outright evil act in Pathfinder as well as worthless for gaining reliable information, so you're using an evil act that's also less effective than other methods. The question of will you stay Good when you're torturing people, probably not is the answer I'd give.

rather than making yourself a torturer, consider yourself an interrogator. concentrate on bluff, diplomacy, intimidate. sometimes the threat of torture and the NPC's belief that the PC's is willing to go that far is enough to get the information you need. like Squeakman said, "torture is an outright evil act as well as worthless for gaining reliable information".

look at in this way, Batman is likely Lawful Neutral. He doesn't really resort to torture (though he is perfectly willing to rough a bad-guy up), he does intimidate the $#!+ out of them. Be Batman. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Except what Batman does is torture.

He inflicts physical pain and emotional anguish to to retrieve information.

The only difference between Batman and the strapped to the table stuff everyone is thinking about is that the story doesn't go too far.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Wouldn't that be more appropriate for training social skills? To be clear, I'm asking about Charisma, not skills. And yes, I do realize that greatly limits available options. That's why I'm stumped.

Working as a host or a job that makes an effort to deal with people would improve both, but if you aren't increasing your diplomacy you could say your general demeanor changes becoming a more sociable person (charisma) but you never remember or pick up the ability to make a conscious effort to win people over (diplomacy)

This is fantasy setting so it's also within reason that these things increase to superhuman levels the way characters in comics or mangas who are technically normal humans develop abilities beyond reasonable limits.

The character becomes a high level adventurer and charismatic appeal shines out their ass. The sun shines at their back when they enter town and glittery lights appears around their eyes when they smile.


blahpers wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
Temperans wrote:
well he would need access to the artifact, and he wants things that the GM can't refuse.

The GM can refuse anything, he wanted a list of things that weren't freebies.

Access to this would be a knowledge check, teleport and then diplomacy with possible payment if it has an owner

FSM, I really hope one of my players makes this argument one day. GMs live for this sort of thing. } : D

Same logic applies to looking for a vendor who sells high level, expensive magic items.


Temperans wrote:
well he would need access to the artifact, and he wants things that the GM can't refuse.

The GM can refuse anything, he wanted a list of things that weren't freebies.

Access to this would be a knowledge check, teleport and then diplomacy with possible payment if it has an owner


If this is a home game some of those weapons are likely to be disallowed for being uniques.

It's as Gaming Ranger says. Your AC is way off. You will have other sources of AC from magic items and the barkskin spell.

You can play a half elf instead for the same FCB, half elves have an option for a free exotic weapon proficiency which opens up something like a faulchard.

Correct, enlarge does not stack with wildshape.


avr wrote:
The song of extinction requires an artifact to learn, it's probably outside the scope of this (non-mythic & non-artifact) list Doompatrol.

Normally I would agree with you if it was a matter of owning the artifact but to learn it you just need to borrow it for literally a minute.


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GM giving it to you is the best option.

Although this is based on personal experience of having never used the aging bonuses and penalties, immortality has always been more of an RP award, like a big house or a title, I'd never require a player take it in place of an actual mechanical ability.

But I'll not be that guy and help out as not every GM will share my thinking.

There's a Bard masterpiece, Song of extinction. Every person you kill with it extends your life by a year so it's incredibly easy to get immortality with that.


Whoa, no.

When a favored class bonus shows a fraction it's how many levels you need to get the listed bonus, in this case a third of 1 which is +1 every 3 levels.

+1 AC every 3 levels is fantastic.

The wildshape bonus is also available to elves and half-elves and if you are picking half orc for the luck bonus there is a slotless magic item the lucky horseshoe that can give you the same bonus.


MrCharisma wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:
Charisma is definitely physical beauty.

Charisma is your ability to manipulate others, your force of personality. This can be done through physical beauty, but is not dependant on it.

Helen of Sparta manipulated exactly one person: Prince Paris of Troy. If her beauty represented her Charisma she may have held sway over more people and could have averted the war, or even avoided her unfortunate marriage in the first place.

While King Minelaus may have used birthright more than Charisma to hold sway over others, Achilles was able to intimidate the entire Trojan army - sending them fleeing for the hills. That is Charisma at work, and was definitely not related to his physical beauty.

Sure but none of that first paragraph actually goes against what I said. Charisma is physical beauty, charisma is also the sound of your voice, charisma is also your attitude.

Probably did but this falls under the argument that charisma/diplomacy is not mind control.

Actually it was his appearance, I'm sure Achilles didn't look like Danny Devito. But this is also a weird aspect of charisma and intimidate and would probably be more common with women where you could have a woman who is really likable but couldn't intimidate a newborn pup.


Syries wrote:

Havocker is actually decent if you think about using energy blasts. First off, you're a witch with 9th level spellcasting- you'll already be accounting for things with energy and spell resistance, and will have the tools a pure-energy kineticist dreams they could have.

Take pyrokinesis for example. A kineticist who wishes to ONLY use fire is in a bad spot pretty much any time they come against someone with high fire resist or immunity. A havocker instead just casts one of their spells they have prepared for the day.

I think they should have gotten metakinesis more so than gather power or infusion specialization though. Spellburn is fine considering the theme but some damage bonus through metakinesis would have been a warm welcome.

It's terrible and if someone playing a kineticist envied the Witch they would be playing a Witch. The picked the kineticist because they liked the utility powers and wanted to be good at blasting, not terrible.

Ask your GM if a pyrokinesis will be terrible in your campaign even if they where to take feats and infusions to help mitigate the issues and if so pick another element. Honing in on a specific downside for one class is not a good defence of another.

The best way to sum up the havocker is that it trades good at will abilities for a terrible one.


Have a minimum con score of 14

Than be capable of having a perform check of 25 or higher if you take a 10 to represent the skill required.

After that I would say you could do it whenever you want but are fatigued for a minute between attempts.


Charisma is definitely physical beauty. I see some examples, there's one at the top that describes an attractive but anti-social girl as someone who isn't charismatic. They may not be as charismatic as someone whose outgoing but being attractive definitely will make people more likely to want to be around you, open up or trust you. It's why villains are stereotypically unattractive and if a villain is attractive they have lots of fans.

If you want a good if exaggerated example watch the Bubble episode of 30 Rock.

McDaygo wrote:
Looks definitely matter though. The whole Trojan war was fault at its base over a beautiful woman. I believe Looks and personality should be alternate stats.

That would just make things needlessly complicated. It would be like splitting intelligence for different kinds of thinking.


Use the kineticist as a template for blasting damage, give them the spell like abilities you want the character to have instead of utilities.

Don't use an element, instead just describe the blast as green eldritch energy or however you imagine it.

For the harasser aspect you can use the wall infusion and ride the blast. Won't have those both until level 12 but if that's too high you can always just let the NPC have them without making them that high a level.


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I don't see the issue here. The high level martials are doing there main goal well and not using some obscure cheese to do it.

If this had been a thread about how the casters where dominating everything people would just say "well that's high level pathfinder"

I also guess that there is some focused vision here. There are surely lots of scenarios where even with flying kick and pounce martials will only get 1 attack or not attacks at all and the focus is on those rounds where everything worked out perfectly for them.


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Summons have no will of their own. It's best to view them as figments of the real thing.

That's why with summon monster spells you can summon a demon to protect an orphanage of baby Paladins from an attack by real demon who don't wash their hands after going to the toilet.

It's only calling spells where you need to bargain with or threaten the real thing does their personal motivations become an issue.


Excluding capstones, any options for the Kineticist?


Evilserran wrote:

Yes, i undestand kineticists aren't optimum, however, see the old addage about when you kill your enemy first, they cannot kill you? I only made it because we havent been getting lots of healing help from drops, and why chew through the money when after combat can be covered? I understand 'max hp is lowered, but theres still 3 reasons a kineticist works.

1. Not wasting money on consumables like wands or potions

2. Despite lowering max HP, the healing of a well built kineticist, on a single target can quickly surpass that of any divine caster, EVEN if you subtract the hp lost from the heal. At level 3 i currently heal 2d6+10, where as a cure mod would only be 2d8+3 which is a range of kineticist 9-18, vs 5-19 with an overall higher average)

3. While the HP of the target ARE lowered, you now enter "invulnerable" stage. Its hard to kill kineticists without an instant K.O because if they have burn, when they go down, they arent actually bleeding out, and often still have a bucket load of HP to go through to kill them. I would be extending this potential through the whole group. As we are a team of 6 with 2 pets, it should generally take a TPK to actually kill anyone if i bothered to even put a few points of burn onto them.
3a. Who says i need to give them the burn? I can take it myself as long as i have room.

Our game hasn't been dropping a lot of loot, the town cant sell anything over 2k, so we need to be fully self containing atm. However, as the chirugon can heal status stuff i thought it would be cool, but i didn't realize it blocked me from EVER using blast infusions, so i have dropped the archtype.

It's not about optimum, you said yourself you changed your character just to be a heal bot.

1. The cost of wands is negligible, especially when the reward of buying them is getting to play the class you want.

2. That's a bad example. You are comparing yourself to classes that only needs to prepare spells whereas you've given up a part of the kineticists very limited options to do this, you should be comparing it to a healer that has also invested permanent class features.

3. We have different opinions of what invulnerable is, sure you don't die but you still become useless when out cold which makes a TPK more likely. Every time you heal you bring your permanent combat effectiveness for the day down, 4 characters are hurt out of your parties 8 (6 + 2 pets) and require 4 heals and your 20 con of combat effective hit points becomes 12 and sure they can take the burn but I wouldn't want a kineticist healing me if it meant my character was easier to defeat for the rest of the day. A character with a wand of cure light wounds will be at full effectiveness.


You can get away with moving an object and standing on it. I see no issue with using it to bypass mundane obstacles and that falls within what you can get away with. But grabbing people is changing the rules and it's not intended to allow you to position people in battle.

Also why are you a healer? Kineticists suck as healers, you lower your max hit points to heal.

The best healer in pathfinder is a wand of cure light wounds.


Rysky wrote:
Doompatrol wrote:

For what are likely to be the last kineticist options I was very disappointed.

Rysky wrote:
Shadow_Charlatan wrote:

If you have a Ring of Protection +5, doesn't it basically make Guarded Gathering useless ? Unless you have the Mythic Paragon Feat, which would allow it to surpass a +5

Yes, if you have the 50,000g ring in one of your two ring slots it makes that Path ability superfluous.
Which of course you will have, you won't forgo an important magic item that offers a deflection bonus all the time because an ability gives you one situationally in a situation you never actually want to be. Gathering power outside of your own turn is just asking for trouble and the class makes it clear that the world knows what you are doing.
How many characters have a spare 50K lying around?

High level characters.

I've never played mythic but I assume that it would be easier to get than 10 mythic levels or any ring of deflection for that matter.

Even if it was untyped it's still a poor ability that you would almost never get any use out of. The ability to gather for a full round is there but I've yet to be in a situation where it's worth it before you even factor in the horrible downside of taking any damage.


For what are likely to be the last kineticist options I was very disappointed.

Rysky wrote:
Shadow_Charlatan wrote:

If you have a Ring of Protection +5, doesn't it basically make Guarded Gathering useless ? Unless you have the Mythic Paragon Feat, which would allow it to surpass a +5

Yes, if you have the 50,000g ring in one of your two ring slots it makes that Path ability superfluous.

Which of course you will have, you won't forgo an important magic item that offers a deflection bonus all the time because an ability gives you one situationally in a situation you never actually want to be. Gathering power outside of your own turn is just asking for trouble and the class makes it clear that the world knows what you are doing.


Any noteworthy infusions or items for kineticists, possibly my last 1st edition society character.


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I hope there are some decent options for a normal game kineticist as well, emphasis on decent.


JuliusCromwell wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Another good one is to go weapon-based UnMonk too!
How would I do this?

I was about to suggest that myself.

Unchained Monk with a 2 handed weapon is incredibly effective. Take the ascetic style feats. It lets you apply feats and class features for unarmed attacks to your weapons, including style strikes.

Unchained Monks get their dimension door ability at level 8, much earlier than vanilla monks. Start taking the dimensional feats.

You get a ki ring which lowers the cost of ki powers by 1, minimum 1, this lets you use the monks dimension door for 1 ki point.

At level 10 you take ki leech power so you gain a ki point back every time you crit or kill someone.

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