Let's say I were to take weapon focus for unarmed strikes. It's a +1 bonus to hit. Would I also gain that bonus to grapple attempts? Considering bonuses to weapons assist in trip and sunder attempts, I would assume this would work for grapple. Technically, I grapple with my hands, at least I would assume I do.
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Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
no. that's why they give weapon focus:grapple as an example of the feat.
they may both use your hands but they are not the same thing.
Weapon Focus is just one example. What about the likes of Weaopn Training or an Amulet of Mighty Fists?
There's a Paizo blog post about Combat Maneuvers and Weapons.
note that with grab, you are not considered to be only using the triggering body part (e.g. bite) unless you take a -20 penalty... so i would say that even a tetori monk with grab triggered by UAS would not apply weapon focus: UAS to the resultant grapple check (unless the take the -20 penalty) since the grapple is necessarily depending on other body parts besides the UAS itself, even if the UAS is 'triggering' the CMB check.
there are similarities and differences for other special CMBs though, such as barbarian knockback: you do this in place of an attack, which can be a reach weapon which shows that the CMB MUST be delivered solely by the weapon, so it's more than plausible that weapon specific bonuses should apply to the CMB.
i'm just referencing what the rules are, you may not think they make sense, but they are the rules...
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
the grab quote only makes sense in the context of grapple normally using many parts of the body,
and the -20 option uniquely allows using only the 'limb' which triggered the grab.the normal grapple rules give a penalty for humanoids not having 2 hands free, but you can still do so even with both hands occupied.
not every creature HAS UAS attacks, yet there is no limitation that they can't grapple (non-humanoids don't suffer the penalty).
how are they grappling if they don't have UAS (or grab)?
if you are using TWO hands, that is not UAS, because a UAS attack uses ONE fist (or kick, or heatbutt),
simply using A single hand is distinct from UAS (bludgeoning strikes with a fist don't help to hold somebody).
needing to have two free hands to avoid a penalty doesn't mean grapple uses UAS attacks.
to benefit from the attack bonus for UAS, UAS needs to be THE sole means of the attack, which isn't supported by the rules.
if UAS was used to 'deliver' all grapples, then why is there separate WEAPON focuses?
you can compare Pathfinder Grapple to 3.5, and the unarmed strike was specifically removed from Pathfinder.
you can look at the weapons and maneuvers Blog post, and it flat out excludes grapple from maneuvers using weapon bonuses,
so it seems implausible to read that grapple normally is delivered by a weapon (UAS).
the allowance for GM ruling is for non-standard corner cases, not for how the basic vanilla maneuver works.
scroll up to see mention of tetori monks and grab by Martiln, which is why i mentioned grab.
whether UAS may apply to Grapple in SOME cases but not others is certainly relevant to the thread topic. Grab is using Grapple rules.
as the rules quote shows, grab directly contrasts how grapple is normally done with 'simply using the part of the body used in the grab',
thus grapple is not normally done simply using a single part of the body used for the grapple.
but feel free to interpret paizo's rules blog on the matter however you want:
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver.
Knockback and Grab are not 'normal' combat rules features so may work differently, but if we are discussing 'normal' Grapple the above clearly seems to apply.
That helps, but it doesn't clearly say "no".
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver.
How could it be made more clear?
They explicitly list the three combat maneuvers that use weapons. They then say that all other maneuvers don't use a weapon or that the weapon is irrelevant, and not to use the weapon bonuses.
There is the clause about GM fiat during certain circumstances, but that's not a default application of one type of weapon always being used with one type of combat maneuver.
"Normally" is the key word. It's referring to default situations; ie, using the Grapple action to grapple someone adjacent to you might only incidentally involve your Unarmed Strike.
Which is what what the guy I was replying to was talking about, as was the OP.
But how does grappling function when you do it at range with a bow? Is that a "normal" instance? No, you're literally shooting them in the pant leg or sleeve and pinning them to the ground or a vertical surface. How would that take strength and not dexterity in the roll to determine success? It stands to reason that since the Archer archetype explicitly does use their weapon to perform the listed maneuvers in a non-incidental manner, they'd apply not only bonuses applied to the weapon (magical weapon/MW bonus, weapon focus, etc) but also swap out strength for dexterity on the CMB calculation because it's a ranged attack.
Are you saying that because the archer can use his bow to grapple, that means Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) applies to grapple checks?
Otherwise I don't really see how that's relevant.