Dabbler wrote: Edit: Oh, and I think the devs and designers have agreed after some debate that there aren't any paladin hellknights; they originally conceived them but the way the hellknights developed as an order has kind of precluded paladins from within their ranks. I wouldnt think there would be Paladin hellknights but the faction book does state that some hellknights are lawful good and that a paladin can be a member though I am not sure how a Paladin would be able to work under a LE asmodian without quite a bit of "ideological tension" Dabbler wrote: Which has what, exactly, to do with my point that provable reality can be trumped with belief in the mind of the believer? My example from the real world are the Young Earthers, Creationists and the like, which you acknowledge exist and exist in great numbers. I see what you are saying.. You make a compelling point even if I still believe that the temporal power one would recieve for allowing religion would be to great to refuse for the Rahadoum. Dabbler wrote: Leaving out the existence or not of a divine being in our own reality, I must point out that Rahadoumi atheism is not a rejection of the existence of gods but a rejection of their worship. Which seems to me would be something they could not enforce without a completely totalitarian state willing to punish anyone who feels called to a faith. That is implied and so more the reason I lean towards Rahadoum being LE. I also wonder how the government of Rahadoum can know who is a member of a religion or cult, It is not as if the priest/assassins or Norgorber are advertising thier affiliations which means the ban on religions in Rahadoum really only affects the Good faiths while having no impact on the sneakier or evil faiths. I would think that the religious institutions of the world would be actively working to overthrow the anti-religious government of Rahadoum. Dabbler wrote: People can and do reject aspects or modern technology that are highly beneficial to their societies on the basis of 'moral purity' or some other aspect of their spiritual beliefs. I even cited two examples - the Taliban, who effectively removed all women from education and medical care, and the Amish, who reject all aspects of modern technology not pertaining to medicine. You could add the USA's ban on stem-cell research to this as well. So what you are suggesting is that Rahadoum are basically acting as do the amish but reject religious power instead of electrical/technological power inspite of thier knowing the benefits? Again you have made a good point. I may have to concede this one unless I am inspred in some way to argue it further. As you have said my argument may have been flawed as it is assumes the Rahadoumi are logical creatures. Dabbler wrote: You haven't addressed these points in any way shape or form. I will see what I can do.. or maybe no. Dabbler wrote:
I think it is debatable as far as which is more powerful on the battlefield. I personally believe a high level cleric is more powerful than a wizard of the same level. I also want to remind you that Rahadoum has given up divine magic but the religious groups have not given up arcane followers. It is not an either or for the religious. Dabbler wrote: 2) Healing. Divine healing is too expensive for the common people even in nations that have it available, so for the rank and file of Rahadoum this makes no difference, so again there is no significant loss to the nation. Cure lightwounds is free and having even one low level cleric in a troop of men would make all the difference in the world on the field of battle. Dabbler wrote: So I can't agree with your point that the Rahadoum have scuppered themselves, nor do I think it would give them pause if it were true. I think it is beyond a doubt that they have hobbled themselves but I also agree that based on the fact that they are illogical it becomes believable.
but many paladins also come from Cheliax and at least a minority of hell knights are LG. There are Good noble houses and religion operating in Cheliax as well. Quote: Dude, get real. The truth about the origins of the Earth and the existence of evolution can be established beyond any doubt complete with all the supporting hard evidence - and that does not stop people rejecting this if it does not tally with their view of how things should be. Allow me to get real then sir, Although the vast majority of people accept darwinism and evolution the question of details is hardly put to rest and does not answer the biggest of boogymen which is "how did life start" and "what was before the universe?" ect. I have little time for dinosaur deniers or young earth theory which is what brought me into this thread as the OP is basically talking about making a fantasy version of a dinosaur denier. That said I also have little in common with people who accept our limited information about the universe as final or somehow a refutation of religion or faith. We have not answered all the questions, nothing is laid to rest and we do not have a T.O.E. I would rather not take this too much further but will say that the existence or lack of of God gods or any other supernatural creator has not been proven or disproven at all. Quote: Tell my why this is, and then you can tell me why it shouldn't be in Golarian. I regard Rahadoum as a theocracy (hey, maybe an anti-theocracy) which enforces it's rules with iron determination. Many people living there know it's flaws, but they are not going to speak out about it because that way lies death. In the real world, regardless of what you and I may wish, there is still room to argue the point of a supernatural creator while in Golarion it is beyond argument it is a fact. It is a fact that brings with it very real temporal advantages and disadvantages and no culture would ever lay down such a powerful weapon and tool while surrounded by nations that did not. Also it is obvious that Rahadoum is evil as in the war between the LG goddess and the NE god a good or even nuetral nation would be best served to gang up on and defeat the known evil while an evil group will act to its own personal interests. Thats before you take into account the rampant slavery and what not that goes on in Rahadoum. Slavery by difinition is evil. I really appreciate your posts though, this has been a very interesting thread so far but as much as possible I will be avoiding talking overly much about the interaction of real world faiths, including atheism, to avoid turning this into a flame fest. My interest is that a nation would refuse divine aid despite all the benefits that go with it. It makes no logical sense when you weigh risk verse reward.
Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
One point I would bring up in relation to this being that in a fantasy setting with strong anti-arcanist bias such as the old world of warhammer it is the priests that often lead the anti-arcanist sentiment. I think the difference between the two is that mages are by and large individualists who make thier own rules while priests represent a larger reality about the nature of the cosmos. When a wizard wonders into town the people have to wonder about what his or her motivations might be. When a priest of Iomedae visits a town the people will generally know what she is about. As you said though there are stories of necromancers and lich and all number of evil mages doing horrid things to the locals as there are stories of evil priests. It is interesting to note that most of the truly evil religious groups are secretive and operate underground because most non-members of those evil faiths would not tolerate them anymore than they would any necromancer. I ramble. What I do not understand is that the Rahadoumi decided to ban all religion rather than side with the lawful good faith against the evil faith. again it makes no sense.
Davick wrote:
Apples and oranges. comparing an inanimate piece of war tech to a sentient creator diety in context of a fantasy world is not a fair comparison at all. Other than the doctrine of mutually assured destruction which may or may not have prevented any number of major wars I can think of no real benefit to nukes. The gods on the other hand offer numerous benefits and unlike nukes also are capable of communicating thier wishes and expectations in return for easily known and vastly useful powers. Davick wrote: ASking how a force without divine magic could beat one with it makes no more sense than asking how 300 spartans held off the persian empire. It seems crazy, but it isn't absurd to have happened. The spartans were religious fanatics while the persians were slaves. I would say your example only proves my point. Also it is a matter of common sense that a army that has support medics and healers will do better than one that does not and not only because of the healing but also the moral boost to the soldiers who can expect to be saved if they are injured. Davick wrote: If you proved to me today that God was real and granted me powers, I still wouldn't be interested in making a pact with what I consider a force of evil and selfishness for any amount of power. And this is the issue. You are attempting to justify something that makes no logical sense in a fantasy world with your own misguided real world bias. If divine magic did not exist in the campaign world I would have no issue with the believability of Rahadoum because they would have lost nothing by running a bunch of powerless priests out of the land. That is not the case however as divine magic is very real and very powerful on Golarion. I seriously question that a rag tag band of secularists could ever have ran off the priests of searenra in the first place. picture that conversation if you will.. athiest " your goddess and this war is bad for our nation" Priest of Searenrae "No, she is lawful and good and we have been involved in a war against Norgorber who is in fact a evil god." Priest/assassin of Norborger in crowd makes mental not to kill atheist and his whole family. Yeah... Thats more believable. Davick wrote: And I imagine the people of Rahadoum think much the same of the Golarion gods. We've cured our diseased and sick without divine casters in the real world, why can't Rahadoum? If a doctor/priest could pray to a god and instantly cure a person of cancer or aids we would not have ever bothered with the tech. There would be no reason to research the technology and no economic gain either. Comparing cure disease to months of chemo or what have you does not support your argument. Obviously divine magic is better than real world technology. Davick wrote: I don't know enough about Razmiran to comment on it, but I don't doubt there are answers why the truth can't be immediately discovered. I have not been able to figure what those answers are. Unless possibly Razmiran has an artifact of unknowable power in his possession. Davick wrote: As for the "fact" that Rahadoum gained nothing and lost much, there history says otherwise, and even if their life is harder, it is possible they continue out of pride, entire cultures have ceased to exist on earth out of pride. My argument is that thier history makes no sense. Quoting this non-sense history as justification for its self also makes no sense. Davick wrote: It's not turning their back on truth if they propose that it is in fact lies. And that is much like what people do here on earth about evolution and the big bang, the validity of the claims has little to do with their acceptance. It is turning your back on the truth when you know for a fact that it is the truth. The position of Rahadoum is that worshipping the gods causes too many problems except that can be shown to be absolutely false. Every other nation, excepting razmeran, has temples and gods and those nations for the most part are doing better than Rahadoum. I also am not willing to guess why some people do not believe in evolution or the big bang theory any more than I can explain how believing in these two theory somehow disproves that there could have been a creator. The first view requires far too much ignorance for me and the latter far too much blind faith. as you opened this door it is important to point out that it was a man of faith (catholic) that started the big bang theory and that evolution of life as we understand it now does not at all disprove God. It may disprove what some bronze age desert dwelling herders wrote down 5000 years ago or so but that is it. Davick wrote:
No they have not. just reading the entry to Rahadoum in the book shows this last part to be false. Plagues, choking sands, supernatural funny business in the capital, underground religious groups, pirates, beasts prowling the wilderlands, ect, ect. Dont you love whern the source material contradicts itself?
Dabbler wrote:
And I have to call BS. That the people of Rahadoum gave up much and did not gain anything by turning thier backs on thier gods is a fact. Life is still hard there, possibly harder than it was with divine power, and the gods still have an affect on thier lives between the beasts of the wastelands, the plagues, and the choking of the bay. How exactly has Rahadoum been made improved by a lack of divine power? It is perfectly understandable to you that humanity would turn thier back on power and truth? Again, what did they gain? nothing. Dabbler wrote: That another nation should embrace a 'religion' that is false on the basis of 'worship or it's the bonfire' is even more understandable, as this basis has seen much use on our own world... Except in Golarion the truth can be established beyond any doubt. In this world there is still doubt on quite a few points and thus religious still exists. In Golarion a high level paladin could roll in call the faith of Razmiran a hoax and no one would doubt him since Paladins do not lie about such things. A witness with th power to know the truth of the matter and whose testimony is beyond question if you will.
I think my biggest problem with atheism on golarion and some of the nations, specifically Razmiran and Rahadoum is that in the context of the world they make no sense (atheism and Rahadoum) or would be just too easy to unveil as a hoax (Razmiran). To the first point, Rahadoum and why would any nation give up one of the most powerful power sources at its disposal? the religious war excuse does not hold water when one considers that Rahadoum is a monster haunted wasteland and that divine casters and healers would be in a very high demand. We are somehow also asked to believe that a force of melee and arcane casters could somehow overwhelm a force of religious zealots, divine casters, AND wizards. Arcane casters are no less religious than anyone else in the setting. The people of Rahadoum can see that divine power works and could help them but choose not to use it because of what? pride? pure unabased stupidity? That is no different than people IRL who do not believe in dinosaurs or argue the age of the earth. It is silly and again makes no sense when the evidence is observed, further it denies human nature which would be to use what ever power possible to strengthen the position of their family society and nation. People believe in religion on earth with no actual proof and you think people would turn their back on religion in a fantasy game where there is absolute proof and the gods actually intervene to help their adherants? That is simply unbelievable. Basically it is like a nation of reverse amish people which as we know could not exist in the modern world were it not for the protection provided by the nation that uses electricity and technology. Who protects Rahadoum from demon cult necromancers and what not? Who cures their diseases and heals the sick? Who makes supplication to the powers for good crops and calm seas? No one and the result is sand choked harbors and dangerous wildlands. Razmiran, No priesthood claims those of another god are worshipping a non-entity without knowing or lying. They may claim that they are not following the best god but they do not claim that the other gods do not exist. why? because there are any number of spells that a moderate to high level cleric can use to find out beyond a doubt if the gods exist and if they are in fact gods. Why has no member of the other faiths used these spells to find out the truth about old man Razmir? Once the information is known they could just call him out as a false god and handle it. What would the reaction of a priest of Serenrae or a paladin of Iomedae be to a person who denies the gods or their role in creation? would they be angry? Would they try to educate the misguided fool to the truth by showing the facts behind thier beliefs or would they simply just shake thier head and laugh.
Raelin wrote:
Almost every single creature on Golarion has a creation myth that involves a diety and they are all true insofar as the game is concerned. Goblins sprang forth from the human blood shed by barghests that in turn are the children of a god/demon lamashtu. By all means explain that without involving a god or supernatural power. They sprang into existence fully formed as they currently exist. No evolution took place. The owlbear has nothing to do with a mage understanding biology because the owlbear is not biologically possible. The owlbear is the creation of an insane wizard who used supernatural magic to create a new creature from a mammal and a bird. again the owlbear did not evolve it was created. Djinn? how did they evolve? Having read your post it seems to me that you are trying awefully hard to force something into game that simply does not fit. In a world where the gods are known to be a fact you want to play a athiest... Think about how silly that actually is. What will your characters reaction be when he uses divinition and a god contacts him and tells him bluntly that he is wrong?
cranewings wrote:
I have to question if dropping the fireball into a room of assailants was and evil act... Sure they were woman, children and the elderly but they were also enemies attempting to cause harm and who had caused injury. Goblind are generally no larger than a child and no stronger either and a 4 damage hit from a goblin is a pretty good hit for one of them so I dont see the issue. From a paladins point of view..
If anyone of these is a yes the paladin should have no problem with the mage putting an end to the threat and/or evil.
Donovan Lynch wrote:
As a SCA fighter who has worn chain mail, plate, and lorica segmentata in battle I can assure you that running and jumping hurdles with 90 pounds of armor on would be difficult if not near impossible for most athletes and that is before you factor in the loss of agility and range of motion that the armor itself imposes. As a prof. firefighter I have climbed ladders and jumped in and out of windows in bunker gear and scba and if anyone here is argueing that it is just as easy to do so as it would be without the added wieght and movement restriction I have to say that they are wrong. What D&D has not dirrectly factored in is that armor is hot and saps the endurance of a person much faster than lighter clothing and this is true even for people who train to wear it. ACPs stay. they make sense and reflect reality.
less_than_vince wrote:
This bit interested me... are there european and US/NA styles of playing D&D/PF? I kinda always thought everyone was kinda doing the same thing.
In shadowrun magic had subsided from the world for many thousands of years until sometime around 2050 when magic returned.
In answer to your question magic does not cancel out tech for a number of reasons in the shadowrun setting.
I am not sure to be honest. been playing pathfinder for about two monthsafter jumping ship on 4th ed. was watching to movie forbidden kingdom and thought the white haired assassin typelady would be a bad ass character but how? after reading witch hexes I noticed prehensile hair so that was one part out of the way. additionally the character in the movie was highly skilled with the bow and arrow, hand to hand combat, and a whip. She does not have to be human but in the movie she is played by a chinese actress with long flowing white hair.
Prehensile hair... thoughts? I kinda think it would be neat to see a ninja, monk, or ranger, and grab a level of witch just for prehensile hair. make the character a white haired tian female and... well some of you may get where I am going with this. Cheers BTW which would you choose? Ninja? Monk? Ranger? other?
Roac wrote:
I disagree. I think Chubbs post added quite a bit more to the conversation than have your posts so far. The OP posted a character concept, is it now our responsibility to never be critical of anyone else? I hope not. I am not advocating for rudeness and do not believe chubbs was rude in his post. you however were very rude. I wonder by what authority you feel like you can come on and tell other people what they should or should not post. Roac wrote: Why for instance is a Paladin that resembles Inigo Montoya (and it's Inigo not Indigo btw) a cliche while a Paladin that's based on a Templar not? I mention this because you defend Chubbs point and even congratulate him on a point well made while serving up what could be considered a cliche. Did I spell Inigo wrong? The paladin I play is a holy knight. I based him closely on Arn the templar more or less. I find it to be very interesting. I do not think that anyone else has a difficult time making interesting paladins or any other class for that matter. I believe what a character does in game determines how interesting he or she is not a backstory.Roac wrote: Now I don't think that either concepts are particularly cliched and for all I know your Templar based Paladin has a rich backstory and is a wonderful addition to the table you play at. But the same goes for the OP's Paladin (which btw the only connection I can see to Inigo Montoya is that the OP rp's him saying his name in a similar manner). I wouldnt turn the guy away from a game. I do question his view on what constitutes a interesting character.
Master_Trip wrote:
The story you are telling and that of your friend are not matching up.
Roac wrote:
I think that Chubbs McGee added a great deal to the discussion, especially as regards the OPs premise that only he is capable of making an interesting paladin or that interesting is defined as a collection of tired cliches that have nothing to do with the actual character concepts of a paladin. The person who has made absolutely no contribution to this thread is you. Why do you feel like you have a right to judge what is and is not needed? Why do you think that you have the right to suggest people not be a part of this community?
Chubbs McGee wrote:
well said and good point.
Lobolusk wrote:
Are we being trolled? lol
Lobolusk wrote:
He lied to you and then knowingly roasted helpless humans rather than try to save them and you dont think he was being a jerk? As a person who plays Paladins a bit I would explain to his character why what he did was wrong, request he pay restitution to the families of those he has slain, perform contrition for his sinful acts, and watch him closely. Any more lapses in judgement would be settled with the sword.
R_Chance wrote:
Nice. I have only recently started playing PF so do not have the advanced player guide. will have to get that.
I do not know if this has been mentioned before and I apologise if i am beating a dead horse but shouldnt the spear be a one handed weapon? I have made it so in my campaign but am curious as to why the designers would make a weapon rule that is so counter to reality. Greek hoplight spears were around 8 or 9 feet long making them equate to the PF longspear. Most ancient cultures produced troops that used spear and shield, from the persians of the bronze age right up to the norse raiders of the dark ages. Perhaps allow the spear and longspear to be used as a martial one hand weapon? |
