I'm curious to know how it plays out. I'm in the process of designing a White-Haired Witch Kitsune for my GF's campaign, so since it's a bit of a ways off I'm hoping to get a bit of feedback on the archetype.
Seems like it weakens itself horribly, getting rid of hexes, of all things, to enter into MELEE combat... And get rogue talents... On a poor BAB.
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I think you will find that the ability to grapple another at range while not being grappled yourself -- with no way to sunder out of the attack -- is a pretty enormous advantage.
The hair is a natural attack. Spells and items which buff natural attacks increase its CMB and damage, too. Still, it's all about immobilizing a foe and denying the foe the chance to even close for damage while the witch or its allies attack it at range.
While the loss of the hexes are a huge sacrifice for the WHW, it's a deadly foe when supported by allies. By 8th level, the WHW is a boss ending battler. The GMs in Pathfinder Society were going NUTS over the "brokenness" of the WHW and how difficult it was to fight by 8th level.
On its own? Not so great. Properly buffed as part of a party of 5 or 6, the poor BAB can be overcome with additional reach extended too. (Enlarge Person extends reach and increases CMB, too). As an arcane caster, the witch class is no slouch, either.
Don't underestimate the power of this archetype. It plays to unique strengths. The problem is whether its unique abilities become so repetitive that it becomes too boring to play. On that, the jury is out and will be for another 8-12 months.
I am pretty much in agreement with the above. The loss of Hex is painful as there are so many good ones, but the hair's ability is pretty rock star. I could see some absolutely silly combat reflexes builds with this one. I could see the "strangle" ability they get at 8th just hosing the crap out of encounters... assuming they can hit with it.
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I'm curious to know how it plays out. I'm in the process of designing a White-Haired Witch Kitsune for my GF's campaign, so since it's a bit of a ways off I'm hoping to get a bit of feedback on the archetype.
Seems like it weakens itself horribly, getting rid of hexes, of all things, to enter into MELEE combat... And get rogue talents... On a poor BAB.
I'm thinking it would look better as a gish. Like White Haired Witch 8 / Martial class 12, or excellent stock for an eldritch knight. The only problem I see with its main shtick is it gets 1 natural attack (his/her hair), relies on combat maneuvers, and has a bad combat maneuver bonus due to BAB being 1/2 HD. You'd be awful at pulling off maneuvers at 20th level, when everything and its neighbor have CMD in the 30s and 40s, yet you're dinking around with a +20 to hit counting BAB +Int.
However, WHW 8 plus levels in Barbarian or Fighter would possibly be good. You could hit +16/+11/+6/+1 BAB, and stuff like Rage powers, and feats like Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and so forth would be good for her. Buff yourself with stuff like enlarge person which would double your reach (15 ft. becomes 30 ft.). If you go with the Eldritch Knight path, you can still hit 9th level spells, meaning you'd still have solid spells and your save DCs shouldn't suffer since your melee is Int based as well.
However, I will note that her BAB still is the biggest drawback. Arguably a wizard or sorcerer spamming telekinesis can do the same only better, as the wizard gets long ranged combat maneuvers, using CL as BAB, Int/Cha as Strength, etc. If you pin a foe, you're allowed to gag them as part of the grapple, so you could choke someone out with TK. The biggest difference is TK becomes available much later, but is ultimately better, I think.
EDIT: In fact, you're better off just waiting until 9th level and picking up TK as a wizard or 10th as a sorcerer. It's long ranged, one casting can last up to 9 rounds initially and gives you the ability to preform combat maneuvers from a range of 760 feet away, with a bonus up to +36 on your checks, and you can do so from the safety of being behind your meatshields (+4 cover), or while on the ground (+4 vs ranged), or while on the ground behind cover, or under the effects of improved invisibility or whatever suits you.
You can even sustain the power for several rounds, then violently hurl objects or your victims through the air. Just the grappling or tripping power of TK is enough to victimize many enemies when you have a party to mop them up.
I'm curious to know how it plays out. I'm in the process of designing a White-Haired Witch Kitsune for my GF's campaign, so since it's a bit of a ways off I'm hoping to get a bit of feedback on the archetype.
Seems like it weakens itself horribly, getting rid of hexes, of all things, to enter into MELEE combat... And get rogue talents... On a poor BAB.
I have the same impression as you. Also, in another thread it was pointed out that they only use int for grapple checks with their hair when attacking, not to resist grapple or even on the rolls to maintain the grapples they started, by RAW.
It's a pathetically terrible trade-off, possibly worse even than the Comatose-chemist. Trading your defining class feature for the ability to go into melee with your poor BAB and d6 HD isn't enough, though! Then at level 10 you forfeit major hexes for rogue talents! Not advanced talents, regular ones! And not just any old regular rogue talent you want, that'd be too abusable. You have to pick from a small subset of regular rogue talents!
The only good thing I can say about the archetype is that if Paizo claims they're balanced trades then perhaps a reverse-engineered setup could be figured out to have rogues trade their talents for hexes, which would be an awesome boon for the rogue.
I'm curious to know how it plays out. I'm in the process of designing a White-Haired Witch Kitsune for my GF's campaign, so since it's a bit of a ways off I'm hoping to get a bit of feedback on the archetype.
Seems like it weakens itself horribly, getting rid of hexes, of all things, to enter into MELEE combat... And get rogue talents... On a poor BAB.
I have the same impression as you. Also, in another thread it was pointed out that they only use int for grapple checks with their hair when attacking, not to resist grapple or even on the rolls to maintain the grapples they started, by RAW.
It's a pathetically terrible trade-off, possibly worse even than the Comatose-chemist. Trading your defining class feature for the ability to go into melee with your poor BAB and d6 HD isn't enough, though! Then at level 10 you forfeit major hexes for rogue talents! Not advanced talents, regular ones! And not just any old regular rogue talent you want, that'd be too abusable. You have to pick from a small subset of regular rogue talents!
The only good thing I can say about the archetype is that if Paizo claims they're balanced trades then perhaps a reverse-engineered setup could be figured out to have rogues trade their talents for hexes, which would be an awesome boon for the rogue.
Yeah, the more I look at this archtype, the less it appeals. It's very bad. At first, I was thinking "ok, this could work..." but now I can't say that it does. It's a horrible archtype. In fact, it's a testament to why I don't think archtypes work very well. They're meant to cut down on class bloat, but they create a new kind of bloat, and yet we get watered down junk that's not even as well thought out as an actual class.
This archtype looks like someone watched The Forbidden Kingdom one afternoon and decided that Li Bing Bing was called a witch, had white hair, and could grapple and trip people with her hair, and decided this would make an awesome archtype for a PF Witch, and threw something together without actually thinking it through.
I expect better than this from homebrew.
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Yeah, this is a truly horrible archetype when looked at on it's own.
It is however probably the best dip class for melee I've ever seen. Mix this with any of the natural weapon builds out there (Ranger, feral alchemist, Beast totem Barbarian) or maneuver focused character (tetori, brawler, Maneuver master monk) or ANY flavor of Magus and watch every GM cry.
The free grapple check on ANY successful attack (other combat maneuvers are still flagged as attacks) mixed with agile maneuvers + True Strike is just abusive.
A single level dip in this on a natural attack using build is just insanely dangerous and throwing in the Witches spell list is just vicious..
Yeah, this is a truly horrible archetype when looked at on it's own.
It is however probably the best dip class for melee I've ever seen. Mix this with any of the natural weapon builds out there (Ranger, feral alchemist, Beast totem Barbarian) or maneuver focused character (tetori, brawler, Maneuver master monk) or ANY flavor of Magus and watch every GM cry.The free grapple check on ANY successful attack (other combat maneuvers are still flagged as attacks) mixed with agile maneuvers + True Strike is just abusive.
A single level dip in this on a natural attack using build is just insanely dangerous and throwing in the Witches spell list is just vicious.
Yeah. The only way this is viable is as a dip. Maybe 2 levels? Just enough to get their 2nd level power, +3 Will, and +1 BAB? Then take the rest of your levels as a martial class focused on natural attacks or somesuch?
I'm actually half-tempted to dip this class on monsters. It's a disassociated class for most brutish monsters, but would look really sexy on ghast or something, while opening up a fair amount of options via wands and scrolls with the dip for use with NPC wealth.
*marks this down as a possible dip for NPCs*
Hmm...
I think I just figured out how to play my grappler ninja. The one I've been trying to figure out how to silently grapple someone from the shadows and drag them back into it without them alerting their allies...
8 level White Haired Witch / 12 levels Ninja.
Think I'll go work on a build and pop it up on the advice forums for review :p.
Just imagine a guard patrolling on the night shift. A stream of white hair flies out from the shadows, dragging it back into the darkness, strangled and unable to scream a warning. Or one walking down the halls, who gets dragged into the rafters, where he's slowly strangled to death while his buddies try and find what happened to him.
Edit: 15ft reach Assassination attack?
This archtype looks like someone watched The Forbidden Kingdom one afternoon and decided that Li Bing Bing was called a witch, had white hair, and could grapple and trip people with her hair, and decided this would make an awesome...
My first, immediate thought as I was reading their first level ability before I read all the way through and got the the "replaces hexes" part, was...
"...A Witch archetype to make Bayonetta, perhaps?!" *crossed fingers*
Oh well, there's always the Hexcrafter Magus.
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This archtype looks like someone watched The Forbidden Kingdom one afternoon and decided that Li Bing Bing was called a witch, had white hair, and could grapple and trip people with her hair, and decided this would make an awesome...My first, immediate thought as I was reading their first level ability before I read all the way through and got the the "replaces hexes" part, was...
"...A Witch archetype to make Bayonetta, perhaps?!" *crossed fingers*
Oh well, there's always the Hexcrafter Magus.
Ayup, a 2 level dip into this with the Magical Knack trait so you get the reach. Then take 4 levels of Magus (hexcrafter) to get the hexes back and that sexy, sexy spellstrike ability. 10 ft reach touch attacks that snatch your target into melee range and drops the grappled condition on them to boot. Then you go to town with your haste driven, keen'ed, thundering, frostbite empowered scimitar for all the nasty goodness that gives.
Your GM will weep.That or you go Feral Alchemist (vivisectionist) instead and pile on the 5 extra sneak attack powered primary natural attacks.
Seems overkill but it's funny to watch.
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Ayup, a 2 level dip into this with the Magical Knack trait so you get the reach
Alas, Magical Knack grants "Caster Level" (as opposed to the plain old "level") which is not referenced at all.
I'm toying around with the White-Haired witch for a gestalt game.
Thinking possibly a WHW//Magus(Kensai), which seems like a lot of fun. :)
My question is, does the WHW use INT for her CMB when tripping... and does she provoke AoOs when doing so?
I'm curious to know how it plays out. I'm in the process of designing a White-Haired Witch Kitsune for my GF's campaign, so since it's a bit of a ways off I'm hoping to get a bit of feedback on the archetype.
Seems like it weakens itself horribly, getting rid of hexes, of all things, to enter into MELEE combat... And get rogue talents... On a poor BAB.
I have the same impression as you. Also, in another thread it was pointed out that they only use int for grapple checks with their hair when attacking, not to resist grapple or even on the rolls to maintain the grapples they started, by RAW.
It's a pathetically terrible trade-off, possibly worse even than the Comatose-chemist. Trading your defining class feature for the ability to go into melee with your poor BAB and d6 HD isn't enough, though! Then at level 10 you forfeit major hexes for rogue talents! Not advanced talents, regular ones! And not just any old regular rogue talent you want, that'd be too abusable. You have to pick from a small subset of regular rogue talents!
The only good thing I can say about the archetype is that if Paizo claims they're balanced trades then perhaps a reverse-engineered setup could be figured out to have rogues trade their talents for hexes, which would be an awesome boon for the rogue.
and as I heard they still whine about it being broken, despite only making the best out of the situation with it, I can already see future nerfing on the horizon
Love the concept, hate the execution of this archetype.
Actually, I think the same cane be said about 60% of the available Archetypes out there, I'm tired of so many AT shovelware
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I'm new here and I'm aware these were posted way back when but I like to think of myself as a pretty good build maker and my friend and I came up with a quick idea for a WHW.
Witch 2 (minimum) / Monk 2 (minimum) / Alchemist 2 (Minimum)
I can hear u scoffing already but bare with me here.
Witch at lvl 2 with the WHW archetype gives you the hair attack, free grapple AND free immediate constrict damage after the grapple.
Monk at level 2 with master of many style archetype AND the Monk of the sacred mountain archetype gives you two free style feats that you do not need the perquisites for, +1 Nat AC bonus and the toughness feat. You free feats will be Kirin Style and Kirin Strike. Allowing you to add your Int x2 bonus to your attacks damage. This stacks with the hairs bonus granting x3 Int modifier in damage.
Alchemist at lvl 2 with the grenadier archetype allows you to put academical liquids onto your weapon and attack with it (as far as I can tell there's no rule stating that your Alchemists Bombs are not allowed). Bombs deal deal their damage (at this lvl 2d6) + your int modifier.
With an amulet of might fists with the agile enchantment you may use your dex over your str for damage rolls. Taking this with weapon finesse will grant you a decent ac bonus and allow you to concentrate on Dex and Int only, optimizing your character.
**alternatively you may want to take the brilliant enchantment on your AoMF which makes your attack a touch attack and pretty much ensures a hit on most things (for the purpose of this thread we'll assume you use the agile**
Lets assume a modest +4 dex and +4 int modifier bonus. This now raises your total damage to::
1d4 (hair) + 2d6 (bombs) + dex (in place of Str) + (Int x 4)
If the grapple hits you gain an additional:
1d4 + dex + (int x 4) constrict damage.
That's 23 minimum damage, 36 max (non crit) attack damage followed by
21 minimum damage, 24 max (non crit) constrict damage.You can total that yourself. For a witch using Hair in...
Well lets address the three major issues with your idea.
First Alchemist bombs are not alchemical items, they are supernatural AND they are flagged as weapons. This means you can't add them via the grenadier ability AND they are weapons so mixing them in with natural attacks gives your hair a -5 to hit and 1/2 str (or anything that counts as strength) to damage.
Second, Brilliant energy doesn't attack your touch AC, it just ignores armor bonuses (and enhancements on armor bonuses). Anyone who relies on anything other than straight armor to up their AC is unaffected by Brilliant energy. Also this enchant has ZERO effect on Objects, Undead or Constructs so it's really kind of ehhh. It also costs 76,000 GP to add this to an AoMF so it is way prohibitively expensive.
Finally The grapple from the Witch archetype isn't free, it requires a swift action locking you out of using it for anything else. Add to that you'd have a Bab of 3 at 6th level and be unable of using armor and having crap for HP's and standing in melee range of CR 6+ creatures who can now full attack you with no penalties.
This path is pretty much guaranteed to get you killed immediately.
Try again.
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Bumping an old thread, as I'm looking at this and wanting to make a Natural Weapons Ranger with a splash of this. The hair and the claws are primary, so they would all get full bab, and it would give you range, so at that point I think you could work out some nice attacks. I'm actually thinking Pai Mei using long fingernails as claws and his beard/mustaches as the hair.
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Bumping an old thread, as I'm looking at this and wanting to make a Natural Weapons Ranger with a splash of this. The hair and the claws are primary, so they would all get full bab, and it would give you range, so at that point I think you could work out some nice attacks. I'm actually thinking Pai Mei using long fingernails as claws and his beard/mustaches as the hair.
It will only give you range if you take at least 4 levels of Witch so that's going to drop your Bab, HP's and Fort saves pretty noticeably. For that build we are only recommending a 2 level dip at most.
It's a disassociated class for most brutish monsters, but would look really sexy on ghast or something, while opening up a fair amount of options via wands and scrolls with the dip for use with NPC wealth.
*marks this down as a possible dip for NPCs*
Just released today from Rite Publishing is Haiku of Horror: Autumn Moon Bath House, which features a ghost with WHW abilities and levels, known as a yurei no kami. She comes as CR 6, 10, 14, and 22.
I think this concept is so awesome, I really want it to work.
I'm thinking there has to be something here, perhaps with a monk dip to get Feral Combat Training--then, you can get full attack flurries with your hair, and that can't be bad. The BAB still really hurts, though...
Swift action for hair use is not "official" nor "errata", whether d20pfsrd claims so or not.
The sourced "errata" was a post in a thread of people complaining about how broken the WHW was (*facepalm*). Also notably... it was a Pathfinder Society thread. Their rules =/= PF the game system's rules.
There is no errata for WHW I can find. Nor any Paizo FAQ entry. The swift action rule is not how the class actually works, until it is actually officially changed. Of course, the rule applies in PFS, they have a ton of their own houserules, including this one.
WHW is a horrible archetype, but thankfully (outside of PFS) it isn't yet THAT horrible.