BelacRLJ's page

Tom Sampson wrote:

Iluzry is mistaken. You can do that as an Unsworn Shaman, but not as a regular one.

Ilzury's guides are. . . not my favorite reference.

Those guides are written from a powergamer/optimizer/rules lawyer perspective. You can find several threads on these boards where Ilzury is trying to come up with a way of reading the rules to do something that a class can't do. Every time one idea got shot down, another one with even more convoluted reading would pop up. Just about every one of the guides includes at least one suggestion that only works if you seriously twist the language of the rules.

I know, but they are *so* detailed and give reasonings for their ratings and suggestions for how to use abilities, as opposed to a lot of guides which are just like "This one is good, this one sucks." With the many abilities and features in Pathfinder that are within themselves unclearly written or don't make it obvious how they interact with other abilities and features, having that level of explanation is very helpful.

I'm generally good at getting what I need from them, and will ask questions elsewhere if something, like this, seems too good to be true.

D20PFSRD Publishing is not Paizo. The D20 PF SRD has some third party content on there, and Art of Magic: Melee and Magic, the source of this class, is not a Paizo publication.

So it is 3rd party, and there will be no official Paizo FAQ.

It says "a shaman can temporarily gain the use of one of the hexes possessed by either one of her spirits." That's very unambiguous. Your wandering hex has to draw from either spirit's list of hexes, not your class list. Likely this was done to avoid having the Shaman obtain the Fetish or Cauldron hex as a wandering hex on downtime days and thus crafting magic items without any investment.

The Unsworn Shaman archetype isn't restricted in this way, however.

That is exactly what was confusing me. Iluzry's guide specifically calls out the option of using Fetish with Wandering Hex, but that seemed too good to be true at my reading.

This ability states that the Shaman "can select any hex possessed by her spirit or wandering spirit."

Does this include the generic Shaman hexes from the Hex class feature? Are those considered to be possessed by every spirit?

Many guides seem to assume that it does, but the Hex class feature does not mention anything about this interaction.

you can search the Rules Forum for posts on Magus's Spell Combat(Ex) and Spellstrike(Su). It is a bit confusing as newbies always have questions on how does it work.

Actions in Combat on AoN.

How does spell combat work, 2022-07 thread

I specifically excluded Spell Combat as I wanted to understand Spellstrike separately. Most Spellstrike question/answers I've found, including the one your link to, focus on spells that allow multiple touches, and on the interactions with Spell Combat, which is specifically not what my question is on.

It seems to me that Oracular Spellstrike doesn't add much relative to Improved Unarmed Strike (I.E. that in my example Sam is stronger relative to Calvin than Oliver is relative to Sam). But I may be missing something about the advantages of Spellstrike on its own.

Below is my understanding of the various options/quirks of casting touch spells and spellstrike. Please let me know anything I'm getting wrong.

___

Calvin the Cleric, Sam the Sacred Fist, and Oliver the Ascetic Oracle (who has Martial Disciple and Oracular Spellstrike), all of whom are 8th level with +6/+1 BAB, decide to have a contest in delivering touch spells, starting 30 feet from the opponent.

Round 1:

Calvin casts Inflict Light Wounds, advances 30 feet, and makes the touch attack. He misses.

Sam casts Inflict Light Wounds, advances 30 feet, and makes the touch attack. He misses.

Oliver casts Inflict Light Wounds, advances 30 feet, and, since he has Oracular Spellstrike, has the choice between making a touch attack or an unarmed strike against full AC. Either way, he misses.

All of them end the round holding their charge.

Round 2:

Calvin has the choice between making a standard action touch attack, or two unarmed strikes against full AC (drawing AoOs for each). The first attack that hits discharges the spell.

Sam has he choice between making a standard action touch attack, or two unarmed strikes against full AC (which won't draw AoOs as he has Improved Unarmed Strike). The first attack that hits discharges the spell.

Oliver has the same choices as Sam for the same reasons. Spellstrike is irrelevant.

All of them successfully discharge the spell.

Round 3:

Calvin can cast defensively and then make a free action touch attack to deliver another Inflict Light Wounds.

Sam has the same options as Calvin. Since he doesn't have Spellstrike and isn't already holding the charge, he can't make an unarmed strike against full AC.

Oliver, having cast defensively, again has the choice between the same move as Calvin and Sam or, since he has Spellstrike, making a single unarmed strike against full AC. He cannot full attack as part of this since he does not have Spell Combat.

Let's say they all do this and again miss.

Then the target gets tired of waiting and runs away, provoking an AoO. They all take the AoO against full AC with their charged spell hand (Calvin doesn't provoke an AoO himself since the hand counts as armed), hit, and the spell discharges. (None of them could have made an AoO as a touch attack since the touch attack requires a standard action).

___

Am I missing any options for any of them, or did I give any of them options they shouldn't have? Particularly involving the AoO.

one of the issues with a lot of feats like this is there is the class feature named "animal companion" belongs to the Hunter. Theres a Druid ability Nature Bond, and a Ranger ability called Hunters Bond, Mad Dog Barbarian gets War Beast, Cavaliers get Mount. Those abilities grant an animal companion, but aren't named animal companion. But as for class abilities named Animal Companion, i only see Hunter.

I mean, yes, the real answer is that Curious Companion is a crappily-written feat that doesn't clarify how it relates to the many known animal companion-related class features that existed at the time of publication, and as Azothath notes there aren't a lot of subsequent clarifications of PPC content.

I'm just disappointed to find that.

The text of the feat is simple and clear.

like any feat, nobody needs to take it, it's optional and usually build dependent.
Is it a good option? maybe but not likely as it just expands possible choices to average/below average combat creature types. To be good it would need to affect CR, HD, HPs, or caster's effective level for calculating their animal companion (like Magical Knack for casters). It is just for those players that want RP flavor choices as some archetypes open those creature types already (for free).

A mount is only an animal companion if the class says so.

Well yes, that is my question here:

1) What builds need it?
2) Which archetypes open up vermin for free?

I'm not seeking to powergame, but going for RP flavor choices. Most specifically, I'd like to understand which non-Druid class archetypes can take a vermin companion without this feat, as it is true that it's not a strong feat in itself.

@belacRLJ for some reason you picked the few archtypes\class options that do not limit the companion type.

just look at ranger or cavalier to see those who DO limit the type of companion for which this might be more suitable.

If I understand it, you’re saying that my original post has it right but that category 3 (mounts) is part of category 2 (can take this feat and needs to to get a vermin companion?

The reason I’m focusing on the non-Druid options that don’t limit choices is because it’s not obvious to me whether you or Mysterious Stranger is right.

Has there ever been official clarification of the Curious Companion feat, a PFS ruling, etc?

Ultimate Magic states that a Druid can take a vermin companion. This is listed under class options for druids. It mentions no other classes so RAW those other classes cannot take vermin companions.

The wording for any class that gains an animal companion is that your effective druid level is equal to X. You are not a druid and do not gain access to any other druid class options that are not specifically granted to you.

Curious Companion also allows you to choose a plant for your animal companion.

Hmm...that gets even deeper into specific wordings than I'd thought was needed. I think you're right, though.

For example, Wild Child and Hunter say they "can begin play with any of the animals available to a druid." While Sylvan Sorcerer says "At 1st level, you gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)." And Mad Dog says "At 1st level, a mad dog gains the service of an animal companion, using the barbarian’s level as her effective druid level."

By your reasoning, it could be argued that Wild Child and Hunter don't need the feat, but everyone else does. Or are you taking the harder position that Wild Child and Hunter specifically reference "animals" and so are excluded from the Druid Ultimate Magic benefit?

I'm inclined to agree with the latter, as I find it easier to believe that Paizo collectively used inconsistent wording across multiple publications than that they intentionally privileged Brawlers and Hunters over Sorcerers and Barbarians.

The Curious Companion feat from Wilderness Origins (published 2019) states

"Prerequisite: Animal companion class feature.

Benefits: You can select a plant companion or
vermin companion as your animal companion."

Per Ultimate Magic (published 2013), "In addition to the normal choices of animal companions listed in the Core Rulebook, a druid who is so inclined may select a vermin as her companion." No reference to any required feats.

It would seem to me, based on this, that:
1) Anyone who gets an animal companion as a druid (Druids, Wild Child brawlers, Hunters, Mad Dog barbarians, Sylvan sorcerers, maybe others) can take a vermin without needing the Curious Companion feat.
2) Anyone who gets an animal companion from a limited list (Rangers, Castellan Cavaliers, Lunar Oracles, Animal Ally feat, who else?) can take Curious Companion to get a vermin.
3) What about classes that get mounts? The Cavalier Mount "functions as a Druid's animal companion" but has a restricted list. Does that put it in category 2, or are they excluded entirely?

Am I understanding the uses/necessity of this feat correctly?

The underlying project is wanting a martial class with a wasp or butterfly companion for a champion of Calistria or Desna.

"Insert the usual rant on the use and misuse of wield."

While the use in the rules isn't totally coherent, wielding normally means "actively use", not simply "hold in one of your hands". If you don't use the Warhammer for the AoO you aren't wielding it.
As the feat requires you to wield a Warhammer to benefit from it, you are forced to make the AoO with it.

That is one interpretation I was thinking of. I've read a few of the threads on here endlessly debating "wield," but the ones I found were quite old and clear on the point that 1E does not actually define the term. I was hoping there was a newer consensus.

(2E does, saying the opposite, interestingly enough).

@azothath I'm less interested in actually building out a character and more interested in having a good-natured pedantic rules-lawyerly debate.

I agree with your general analysis, though as a Lawful god Torag would appreciate leaving no stone unturned in search of RAW-legal fighting techniques.

This particular one started with an effort to make a Panther/Cloak and Dagger Style user. I realized I was getting Vital Strike and needed more AoOs, so Torag's fighting style seemed like a natural fit, but Cloak and Dagger doesn't work with warhammers and I was high-Wis anyhow for Panther Style.

So the idea would be to use the warhammer for my attacks, and Improved Unarmed Strike for my AoOs. Never actually using two-weapon fighting.

Torag's Patient Strikes reads "Whenever you wield a warhammer, add your Wisdom bonus to the total number of attacks of opportunity that you can make per round."

Do these extra AoOs have to be made with that warhammer?

For example, if I'm wielding a warhammer in my main hand and a dagger in my off hand (or have Improved Unarmed Strike), could I make the AoO with the dagger or unarmed strike?

Nothing in the plain text of the feat suggests I couldn't, but it seems to go against the spirit of what Torag would intend and the word "wield."

Knowledge(Arcana): 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (6) + 6 = 12

initiative: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (2) + 2 = 4

Search: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (9) + 10 = 19

1: 1d20 ⇒ 16
2: 1d20 ⇒ 16
3: 1d20 ⇒ 12

spot: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (17) + 7 = 24

spot check: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (5) + 7 = 12

Sorry for delay

AoO: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (20) + 6 = 26

crit damage: 3d6 + 9 ⇒ (5, 4, 1) + 9 = 19

As the mummy tries to run past him, Edgar lashes out with a wicked sideways cut with the boarding axe.

Knowledge(religion): 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (13) + 3 = 16

Knowledge(Arcana): 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (2) + 6 = 8

Search: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (13) + 10 = 23

healing belt: 2d8 ⇒ (1, 6) = 7

healing belt: 2d8 ⇒ (1, 7) = 8

Attack: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (19) + 8 = 27

Damage: 2d4 + 3 + 2d6 ⇒ (2, 3) + 3 + (4, 6) = 18

Tumble: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (3) + 9 = 12

attack: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (16) + 8 = 24

damage: 2d4 + 3 + 2d6 ⇒ (1, 1) + 3 + (1, 1) = 7

Move Silently: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (15) + 5 = 20

Spot check: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (19) + 7 = 26

ok, the door we were standing at is apparently locked. Does anyone have 'disable device'? Or maybe a crowbar?

I have Disable Device, but with a bar it may be more brute strength than skill to get it open. Unless it was very easy to, Merion wouldn't have actually lifted the bar without checking if anyone but he and Arren were there to deal with whatever's in that room.

Knowledge(Religion): 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (6) + 3 = 9

"It is for any m-maps th-that could p-p-point the w-way to-wards th-this old st-strrong-hold. Even if the m-maps are f-faint or w-worn out, th-they w-will count. It is more like f-fin-ding p-puzzle p-pieces to com-plete the p-puzzle to f-find the lo-ca-tion."

Well, that's easier. Who knows what unexpected difficulties we may find in these woods? Bandits, lycanthropes, anything that hides from human civilization.

Merion sees to his own belongings and horse, but otherwise stands aside and lets those better at things manage the preparations. He also keeps an ear out for other groups leaving town around the same time, and for the directions they are leaving in. Wouldn't do to be followed, Nempura is right that where there's danger and lost riches, there's oportunists and scavengers.

Diplomacy(Gather Information) to see if anyone else is heading in our general direction: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (8) + 7 = 15

attack roll: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (7) + 6 = 13

damage if applicable: 4d8 ⇒ (1, 4, 7, 4) = 16

Attack roll: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (18) + 6 = 24

Damage if applicable: 2d4 + 3 ⇒ (2, 2) + 3 = 7

attack roll: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (7) + 8 = 15

damage if applicable: 2d4 + 2d6 + 3 ⇒ (2, 3) + (3, 3) + 3 = 14

Attack roll: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (19) + 6 = 25

Damage if applicable: 4d8 ⇒ (8, 6, 4, 5) = 23

initiative: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (20) + 2 = 22

Spot:

1d20 + 7 ⇒ (7) + 7 = 14

"This is not a good place." Arren mutters in agreement with Ewan. "It's like a hornet's nest. Hopefully we can leave without putting our foot in it."

Merion nods. Best course of action, staying out of trouble you're not specifically courting. Which we seem to be courting enough as is.

Wisdom: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (15) + 4 = 19

Listen: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (14) + 7 = 21

Hide: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (13) + 5 = 18

Move Silently: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (12) + 5 = 17

Spot: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (14) + 7 = 21

cure light wounds: 1d8 + 2 ⇒ (7) + 2 = 9

”Dunno. World is a pretty fooked up place. If I wasn’t keeping all my things there I might not care enough.” She said, managing to more or less keep a straight face.

Merion laughs at the dwarf's joke, and adds to Ivar That breakfast does smell tasty. Jerky and hardtack for lunch, perhaps.

init: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (12) + 2 = 14

What checks do I need to make to stabilize in the water, secure any planks that are floating nearby, and climb up the far side of the bank? How fast is the current?

Cure Light Wounds

1d8 + 2 ⇒ (1) + 2 = 3

Listen check:

1d20 + 7 ⇒ (18) + 7 = 25

Spot:

1d20 + 7 ⇒ (10) + 7 = 17

Thorn reflex save

1d20 + 3 ⇒ (17) + 3 = 20

Thorn again fighting defensively

attack: 1d20 - 3 ⇒ (9) - 3 = 6

damage: 1d6 + 1 ⇒ (5) + 1 = 6

Thorn attack

attack, fighting defensively: 1d20 - 3 ⇒ (12) - 3 = 9

damage: 1d6 + 1 ⇒ (2) + 1 = 3