Summoner and skill challenges

Hi everyone,

PFS clarifications for Secrets of Magic states:

"Eidolons: Eidolons are not PCs, so they do not count as PCs for effects that scale based on the number of PCs or players.
Eidolons and summoners share a pool of actions. As a result, for Victory Point/success counting systems that allow each PC a limited number of chances to roll, either the summoner or the eidolon can attempt each check. The summoner's player chooses for each attempt which of the two rolls. Any direct consequences of failure apply to whichever creature rolled the check."

Can the inactive Summoner/Eidolon Aid the one making the check?
Act Together allows the inactive Eidolon/Summoner to get one action per round and Aid is one action (and a reaction, but I think it doesn't impact skill challenges much).

I feel like, in the spirit of the rule, each "player" gets one dice roll.

That roll can either be a check (using the PC or the Eidolon), or an attempt to Aid (using the PC or the Eidolon).

But having the PC roll a check, and the Eidolon attempt to Aid (or vice versa), would be 2 dice rolls.

What the actual intent is, I'm not sure, but I can foresee the slippery slope argument of a high level Halfling Summoner/Swashbuckler granting their Eidolon a +4 circumstance bonus Aid (or some other similar, future-possible combination), possibly with reroll options tossed in, and I think it's fine to just nip it in the bud now by saying "1 roll per player".

I feel like, in the spirit of the rule, each "player" gets one dice roll.

That roll can either be a check (using the PC or the Eidolon), or an attempt to Aid (using the PC or the Eidolon).

But having the PC roll a check, and the Eidolon attempt to Aid (or vice versa), would be 2 dice rolls.

What the actual intent is, I'm not sure, but I can foresee the slippery slope argument of a high level Halfling Summoner/Swashbuckler granting their Eidolon a +4 circumstance bonus Aid (or some other similar, future-possible combination), possibly with reroll options tossed in, and I think it's fine to just nip it in the bud now by saying "1 roll per player".

What you call a slippery slope is actually a class feature. Every time you make a skill check that can be aided you can get the Aid of your Eidolon for up to +4 bonus (as it has your skill proficiencies). So I'd question why you want to remove it for skill challenges? You don't remove the extra proficiency Rogues and Investigators have, what difference do you make with the Summoner class features?

Most of the challenges say one attempt per player, and the attempt can be to roll yourself or to aid, but not both. I think allowing the eidolon to aid the summoner isn't much different than letting the summoner aid another PC after they get to take their turn. It's pretty clearly against the spirit of the rule and it's kept that way to avoid breaking the math of successes vs. number of characters. Crit fails can reverse the party so the aid option is there to give players ways to contribute even if they don't feel confident in pursuing a success on their own.

I can also see why you want it to work, but honestly you're still getting a lot of value out of getting to pick from two different stat arrays (or potentially two sets of skill feats) on how you're going to handle challenges. If a scenario calls for each party member to climb a hill, and your summoner is trained in Athletics, they only need attempt it once and will probably let the Eidolon do it who will inherently have probably between +2-4 better mod than the summoner themselves.

Most of the challenges say one attempt per player, and the attempt can be to roll yourself or to aid, but not both. I think allowing the eidolon to aid the summoner isn't much different than letting the summoner aid another PC after they get to take their turn.

Well, it's very much different. Aiding another PC if you do nothing is available, and the Eidolon does nothing and has the action to provide the Aid.

It's pretty clearly against the spirit of the rule and it's kept that way to avoid breaking the math of successes vs. number of characters.

Aiding wouldn't break any math, just add a little bonus. I mean the skill challenges don't forbid Rogues and Investigators to use their increased proficiency.

I can also see why you want it to work, but honestly you're still getting a lot of value out of getting to pick from two different stat arrays (or potentially two sets of skill feats) on how you're going to handle challenges.

You got a bone so you shouldn't complain ;)

Anyway, I'm challenging your answers, but my main goal is to avoid rules debate (any debate actually) around the table. So it's just for the sake of argument as I'll avoid doing it if it seems that most people disagree.

If a scenario calls for each party member to climb a hill, and your summoner is trained in Athletics, they only need attempt it once and will probably let the Eidolon do it who will inherently have probably between +2-4 better mod than the summoner themselves.

Sorry, but I find that illogical. If I have to climb a hill, the Summoner should make the check and Manifest the Eidolon at the top of the hill. I don't see why skill challenges should have rules that contradict the rules of the game and even logic itself. Using suspension of disbelief reduces the quality of the experience.

I remember a skill challenge where my Sorcerer had a spell that trivialized one of the step of the challenge. The GM gave us an automatic success to all characters and at the same time a near automatic success at the challenge considering the number of successes we got from this step. I think he was right. Skill challenges should follow the rules of the game. The more gamist the less satisfying. Finding creative solutions to problems is a core of the game even more than rolling dice (there are TTRPGs without dice, there are no TTRPGs without creative solutions).

my main goal is to avoid rules debate (any debate actually) around the table.

The easiest, and fairest, way to do that would be to allow one dice roll per player.

The intent of the clarification is that each player gets one dice roll to make a check if it's not something that affects every pawn on the table (so one die roll for a skill check, multiple for an AoE save). Unless it is a passive ability, your summoner should not be able to use their eidolon to aid themselves.

Most skill challenges that count successes per player are abstractions by definition. To Alex's point, they aren't "how are you going to get everyone across the gorge" but rather "every PC makes an Athletics checks, if at least half succeed, the party makes it over with no ill-effect." If your Eidolon gets to roll a second time, or gets to boost someone in addition to you getting to roll that is absolutely a material advantage and 100% does change the math if the summoner gets two chances at a crit success or one chance a crit success and one chance to also help push someone else to a possible crit success. Rogues and Investigators with increased proficiency have more opportunities to do well, just like a Summoner does because they have more options for strong stats on their skill array.

It's supposed to be symmetric: you don't get more dice to roll because your eidolon is an extra body, but you also don't NEED more successes because your eidolon is an extra body.

^ THIS.

The Eidolon doesn't raise the challenge points that having another PC on the field would.

SuperBidi wrote:

my main goal is to avoid rules debate (any debate actually) around the table.

The easiest, and fairest, way to do that would be to allow one dice roll per player.

Everyone seems to have the same opinion so I'll follow it. But it's not fair at all. The Eidolon is part of the power budget of the Summoner and one of its strength is to have always someone helping you on skill checks, sometimes rolling twice (Recall Knowledge) or performing concurrent activities (like in Exploration). Preventing the Summoner to use this feature during skill challenges is not different than preventing the Barbarian to Rage in combat.

It's supposed to be symmetric: you don't get more dice to roll because your eidolon is an extra body, but you also don't NEED more successes because your eidolon is an extra body.

Except the Eidolon is not an extra body. If you have to search through a library, there's no reason the Eidolon will affect negatively the result by participating. And if you need to climb a cliff it's illogical to roll with the Eidolon as it doesn't have to climb the cliff at all.

Most skill challenges that count successes per player are abstractions by definition. To Alex's point, they aren't "how are you going to get everyone across the gorge" but rather "every PC makes an Athletics checks, if at least half succeed, the party makes it over with no ill-effect." If your Eidolon gets to roll a second time, or gets to boost someone in addition to you getting to roll that is absolutely a material advantage and 100% does change the math if the summoner gets two chances at a crit success or one chance a crit success and one chance to also help push someone else to a possible crit success.

And if a caster uses Fly on the whole party, do you forbid it as it's a material advantage to a skill challenge?

In-character, you can flavor your Eidolon helping however you want. Just like someone with a Familiar or an Animal Companion or a Hireling can do, too. We're not saying your Eidolon ceases to exist. We're saying that no matter the in-character happenings, you as the player get a single dice roll.

That's it.

Everyone seems to have the same opinion so I'll follow it. But it's not fair at all.

I'd disagree, whilst it does indeed remove the option to get two rolls, it also removes the need to get twice as many successes, thus not making the task harder.

What it does do is let you have whoever is best make the check, which is a huge advantage as you can specialise your summoner and their eidolon in remarkably different directions to maximise the coverage of skills between them, something no other class can do and a great benefit to succeeding at checks.

Ascalaphus wrote:

It's supposed to be symmetric: you don't get more dice to roll because your eidolon is an extra body, but you also don't NEED more successes because your eidolon is an extra body.

Except the Eidolon is not an extra body. If you have to search through a library, there's no reason the Eidolon will affect negatively the result by participating. And if you need to climb a cliff it's illogical to roll with the Eidolon as it doesn't have to climb the cliff at all.

Suppose you had a party with a classic fighter rogue cleric wizard and they have to search a library, and the scenario says you need points equal to half the party size. They need 2 points.

Then look at the next table which has the same party but also two barbarians who tried their hardest to not have any education skills. That party needs 3 points, even though the information they're after in the scenario hasn't changed. They just have extra bodies and the difficulty of the scenario scales for that.

If your eidolon was allowed to be an extra participant, the scenario difficulty would also have to scale up for that.

SuperBidi wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

It's supposed to be symmetric: you don't get more dice to roll because your eidolon is an extra body, but you also don't NEED more successes because your eidolon is an extra body.

Except the Eidolon is not an extra body. If you have to search through a library, there's no reason the Eidolon will affect negatively the result by participating. And if you need to climb a cliff it's illogical to roll with the Eidolon as it doesn't have to climb the cliff at all.

Suppose you had a party with a classic fighter rogue cleric wizard and they have to search a library, and the scenario says you need points equal to half the party size. They need 2 points.

Then look at the next table which has the same party but also two barbarians who tried their hardest to not have any education skills. That party needs 3 points, even though the information they're after in the scenario hasn't changed. They just have extra bodies and the difficulty of the scenario scales for that.

If your eidolon was allowed to be an extra participant, the scenario difficulty would also have to scale up for that.

Reread the rules, they don't say that you need 2 successes because there are 4 characters but 2 successes because there are 4 players or 4 PCs. Adding the Eidolon doesn't add a player nor a PC. It's the same for Challenge points, the Summoner doesn't increase the challenge points more than a Barbarian.

The Eidolon is part of the power budget of the Summoner, it's included in the increase in number of successes and Challenge points. The fact that the Summoner is stronger at skill checks compared to a Barbarian is compensated by the fact that it is worse in pure combat abilities.

It has been ruled upthread, so that settles it definitively.

That said, there may yet be an interesting discussion to have around how Act Together also allowing Eidolon Aiding during Scenario Skill Challenges might impact how people build their Summoner / Eidolon pairs. First could be the incentive to maximize Aid maths. Second could be how the two chassis might incentivize either Horizontal or Vertical skill allocation.

Probably best in it's own thread?