Charges or Resonance?

Mark Seifter wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Yeah, we have been assured a barbarian with the right Medicine feats can play a viable healer. Of course, I'm not clear on what the limitations of this are-- one assumes Resonance doesn't play into stitching up wounds the old fashioned way.

Since this likely refers to my assertions about the barbarian in my group who is their primary healer, I will attest that while it has certainly been assumed, I have never said precisely that statement. Not going to deny that she has Battle Medic, but that's not all.

So, given that you've definitely read this thread now, can I take your not answering my question about whether we'll still have to keep track of individual item charges to mean that you're not allowed to give us a direct answer yet?

I actually just popped in to dispel that one assertion. I do try to read all the posts listed as "new" when I poke into a thread, which interestingly keeps me out of threads where I didn't have the time to read it most of the time (like barbarian in my absence), but in this case, I saw something in the preview I really wanted to comment on.

JRutterbush wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Yeah, we have been assured a barbarian with the right Medicine feats can play a viable healer. Of course, I'm not clear on what the limitations of this are-- one assumes Resonance doesn't play into stitching up wounds the old fashioned way.

Since this likely refers to my assertions about the barbarian in my group who is their primary healer, I will attest that while it has certainly been assumed, I have never said precisely that statement. Not going to deny that she has Battle Medic, but that's not all.

So, given that you've definitely read this thread now, can I take your not answering my question about whether we'll still have to keep track of individual item charges to mean that you're not allowed to give us a direct answer yet?

I actually just popped in to dispel that one assertion. I do try to read all the posts listed as "new" when I poke into a thread, which interestingly keeps me out of threads where I didn't have the time to read it most of the time (like barbarian in my absence), but in this case, I saw something in the preview I really wanted to comment on.

Actually, Mark answered this question directly at the GCP Crypt of the Everflame Podcast thread I started.

Resonance is getting rid of pretty much the per-day tracking other than "Once per day" or "At will, as resonance allows." But consumables are still consumable. Just as casting 10 scrolls is going to cost 10 RP and use up the 10 scrolls, same with a wand (but cheaper than buying 10 scrolls).

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Except it isn't a setting change. There's not been anyone in-setting that's chugged potions and spammed wands as their thing.

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Is it a setting change? Was there a single part of the setting that relied on (or even mentioned) a character using more magic items than their level + charisma? Also important to note that only applies to the items they bond with at the start of the day. They could still drink potions all day long if they got lucky.

Azten wrote:

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Except it isn't a setting change. There's not been anyone in-setting that's chugged potions and spammed wands as their thing.

It can be seen as a setting change due to our PC's where able to do such things before the edition change. On top of that you could not have 20 magical rings before and now a person could have all 20 on and active.

Rysky wrote:

Azten wrote:

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Except it isn't a setting change. There's not been anyone in-setting that's chugged potions and spammed wands as their thing.

It can be seen as a setting change due to our PC's where able to do such things before the edition change. On top of that you could not have 20 magical rings before and now a person could have all 20 on and active.

What a PC does does not make it a setting thing.

Rings are a different story, since it's increasing, and I'm pretty sure if a ring was important they've only had one, or had a bunch and swapped them out. Again, not really seen any NPCs with an abundance of rings, just like I haven't seen any NPCs that spammed potions and wands.

I feel like "nothing specific the PCs did in the course of saving/changing the world" is ever going to be referenced on the page. Sure, the PCs did make Ravounel an independent country, closed the Worldwound, etc. but no book is ever going to make reference to how specifically they did it.

I mean even if you did get through that AP by chugging thousands of potions, which now you can't do without improbable luck, this isn't really different from how the PCs might have used a feat, spell, magic item, class, or archetype which no longer exists in the course of that AP.

I feel like "nothing specific the PCs did in the course of saving/changing the world" is ever going to be referenced on the page. Sure, the PCs did make Ravounel an independent country, close the Worldwound, etc. but no book is ever going to make reference to how specifically they did it.

I mean even if you did get through that AP by chugging thousands of potions, which now you can't do without improbable luck, this isn't really different from how the PCs might have used a feat, spell, magic item, class, or archetype which no longer exists in the course of that AP.

Yup. Resonance isn't really any different from any other rule change that adds or subtracts mechanical elements.

It is like saying the setting got changed whenever errata was released to change Crane Wing or the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier or something.

Rysky wrote:

Azten wrote:

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Except it isn't a setting change. There's not been anyone in-setting that's chugged potions and spammed wands as their thing.

It can be seen as a setting change due to our PC's where able to do such things before the edition change. On top of that you could not have 20 magical rings before and now a person could have all 20 on and active.

At which point any PC rule change is a setting change. Everyone with more HP is a setting change. Wizards being better at hitting things than before is a setting change. Any change to any spell and on and on. In fact pretty much every page of the playtest will be a setting change by your definition.

Captain Morgan wrote:

Yeah, we have been assured a barbarian with the right Medicine feats can play a viable healer. Of course, I'm not clear on what the limitations of this are-- one assumes Resonance doesn't play into stitching up wounds the old fashioned way.

Since this likely refers to my assertions about the barbarian in my group who is their primary healer, I will attest that while it has certainly been assumed, I have never said precisely that statement. Not going to deny that she has Battle Medic, but that's not all.

Hmm. Well, assuming she's not using a totem specific thing which seem weird, that might mean she also has Religion and a skill feat for Use Magic Device type checks, for example.

If that's the case, I wonder if you can still skip those checks if you have the spell in question on your spell list. I liked the idea of being able to get by with strictly mundane healing, but if barbarians can activate scrolls of heal as easily as clerics I could probably live with it.

I'm glad that the PF2 version of Wands will still allow us to replicate that epic scene in Harry Potter where Harry used up the last Expelliarmus charge in his wand in the middle of his duel with Draco.

Azten wrote:

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Except it isn't a setting change. There's not been anyone in-setting that's chugged potions and spammed wands as their thing.

Except it is because there has never been a NPC or PC before that couldn't use a potion because they were out of an arbitrary resource that didn't exist before the new edition. No statblock I've ever seen has said "NPC Z cannot benefit from any magic items today because he's out of his Magic Item Batteries."*

*Technology need not apply as it actually used batteries.

I'm glad that the PF2 version of Wands will still allow us to replicate that epic scene in Harry Potter where Harry used up the last Expelliarmus charge in his wand in the middle of his duel with Draco.

For this, I recommend Harry Potter and the Natural Twenty.

Rysky wrote:

Azten wrote:

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Except it isn't a setting change. There's not been anyone in-setting that's chugged potions and spammed wands as their thing.

Except it is because there has never been a NPC or PC before that couldn't use a potion because they were out of an arbitrary resource that didn't exist before the new edition. No statblock I've ever seen has said "NPC Z cannot benefit from any magic items today because he's out of his Magic Item Batteries."*

*Technology need not apply as it actually used batteries.

There's never been a 1st level cleric that could cast Heal 4 times a day, because Heal used to be a 6th level spell. Cure Light Wounds flat out doesn't exist anymore.

It is a new edition. Things are gonna change.

Except it is because there has never been a NPC or PC before that couldn't use a potion because they were out of an arbitrary resource that didn't exist before the new edition. No statblock I've ever seen has said "NPC Z cannot benefit from any magic items today because he's out of his Magic Item Batteries."*

*Technology need not apply as it actually used batteries.

I've actually gone through some low level characters who make extensive use of consumables (the only people this would actually ever be a problem for). None run into this problem enough to worry about. All can almost certainly manage their entire PF1 combat strategy with the Resonance they'd have available in PF2.

In short, this is not an issue that has ever come up in the setting, and very likely never will.

Except PF2 Heal is what Channel Energy and the Cure spells line were, so the fact a cleric still does area and targeted healing isn't different at all.

Dragonborn3 wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Azten wrote:

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Except it isn't a setting change. There's not been anyone in-setting that's chugged potions and spammed wands as their thing.

Except it is because there has never been a NPC or PC before that couldn't use a potion because they were out of an arbitrary resource that didn't exist before the new edition. No statblock I've ever seen has said "NPC Z cannot benefit from any magic items today because he's out of his Magic Item Batteries."*

*Technology need not apply as it actually used batteries.

There's never been a 1st level cleric that could cast Heal 4 times a day, because Heal used to be a 6th level spell. Cure Light Wounds flat out doesn't exist anymore.

It is a new edition. Things are gonna change.

But was the change for better or worse? I guess we'll see

Except Heal is what Channel Energy and the Cure spells line was, so the fact a cleric still does area and targeted healing isn't different at all.

And Resonance is what the daily use count for an item was, so the fact that you have a limited amount of uses per day isn't different at all. In order for it to be different you need a specific scenario where someone has an unrealistic amount of magical items compared to their level, but you could make a similar comparison to a scenario where a 1st level cleric does single target healing more than 4 or 5 times a day.

Things that actually change in the setting include clerics of Lamashtu being able to Heal instead of just Harm or Paladins being able to use poison. And I don't really care about these either, because I think those are good changes to make.

Well if it's so terrible it needs errata you can bet it won't be less than a year before we get it unless Paizo changes their... unusual... issuing errata policy.

Captain Morgan wrote:

Dragonborn3 wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Azten wrote:

Really hope we can get rid of Resonance. It's yet another huge setting change they're pretend doesn't change the setting because they said they weren't making huge changes outside of an AP. If they shoehorn it into an AP, well... bad on them.

Except it isn't a setting change. There's not been anyone in-setting that's chugged potions and spammed wands as their thing.

Except it is because there has never been a NPC or PC before that couldn't use a potion because they were out of an arbitrary resource that didn't exist before the new edition. No statblock I've ever seen has said "NPC Z cannot benefit from any magic items today because he's out of his Magic Item Batteries."*

*Technology need not apply as it actually used batteries.

There's never been a 1st level cleric that could cast Heal 4 times a day, because Heal used to be a 6th level spell. Cure Light Wounds flat out doesn't exist anymore.

It is a new edition. Things are gonna change.

But was the change for better or worse? I guess we'll see

Well, sure, the quality of how these changes impact enjoying the game is up in the air. But saying "resonance is a setting change" means having such a broad definition of setting change it is irrelevant.

There were already Paladins that could use poison and evil clerics could still heal, so... no real change?

Mark from the Podcast Thread wrote:

Resonance is getting rid of pretty much the per-day tracking other than "Once per day" or "At will, as resonance allows." But consumables are still consumable. Just as casting 10 scrolls is going to cost 10 RP and use up the 10 scrolls, same with a wand (but cheaper than buying 10 scrolls).

Whelp, that sucks. I was really hoping to get away from that with wands. Maybe I'll have to come up with a price point that makes them reasonable as an unlimited item.

brad2411 wrote:

Mark from the Podcast Thread wrote:

Resonance is getting rid of pretty much the per-day tracking other than "Once per day" or "At will, as resonance allows." But consumables are still consumable. Just as casting 10 scrolls is going to cost 10 RP and use up the 10 scrolls, same with a wand (but cheaper than buying 10 scrolls).

Whelp, that sucks. I was really hoping to get away from that with wands. Maybe I'll have to come up with a price point that makes them reasonable as an unlimited item.

Yeah, this has pretty much caused me to do a complete 180 on Resonance. I loved the idea as a replacement for charges, but in addition to them? Looks like I finally have my "thing I'm immediately going to house rule" for the new edition.

I'm still looking forward to the playtest, but this is definitely putting a damper on things.

Dragonborn3 wrote:

Except Heal is what Channel Energy and the Cure spells line was, so the fact a cleric still does area and targeted healing isn't different at all.

And Resonance is what the daily use count for an item was, so the fact that you have a limited amount of uses per day isn't different at all. In order for it to be different you need a specific scenario where someone has an unrealistic amount of magical items compared to their level,

Jarlaxle! He would be totally screwed in Golarion2.0. Better stick to the Forgotten Realms.

Captain Morgan wrote:

Dragonborn3 wrote:

Except Heal is what Channel Energy and the Cure spells line was, so the fact a cleric still does area and targeted healing isn't different at all.

And Resonance is what the daily use count for an item was, so the fact that you have a limited amount of uses per day isn't different at all. In order for it to be different you need a specific scenario where someone has an unrealistic amount of magical items compared to their level,

Jarlaxle! He would be totally screwed in Golarion2.0. Better stick to the Forgotten Realms.

Aren't most of his items use-activated? Looking at his Wikipedia entry he only has 6 or 7 that would cost per-day Resonance (maybe 8 assuming you add armor), the rest would only cost when he used them. Add in a high level and a high Charisma mod (both of which appear to be the case...the lowest level he's been statted is 17th, and high Charisma seems part of his schtick), and it sounds like he has plenty of Resonance. Or is 14+ points a day usable Resonance not enough?

Yeah, this has pretty much caused me to do a complete 180 on Resonance. I loved the idea as a replacement for charges, but in addition to them? Looks like I finally have my "thing I'm immediately going to house rule" for the new edition.

I'm still looking forward to the playtest, but this is definitely putting a damper on things.

We're 50/50 at this point on whether we'll be migrating over to 2.0 (and definitely not until firearms make it in), but we won't be taking Resonance and wand charges. We won't take Resonance and single-use potions and scrolls. Constantly-on items, or those that can be activated a certain number of times a day by your command? I can buy that. But no matter what game-balance or mechanical reason they provide, I can't buy into the logic of someone being able to only read a certain number of scrolls in a day when the magic for those scrolls is already within the scroll itself--especially when the target of those magics is not even the user of the scroll. It doesn't even matter if the Resonance limit is generous enough that it rarely comes up. The fact that it exists feels nonsensical. And you're paying a premium for portable (and potable) magic, only to find out that you might not be able to use them when you need them most because you're juiced out for the day? No sir.

You might wan to work on the wording for that. Saying something that works by magic is nonsensical is true I'll give you that. But the entire game is focused on magic so saying something based on magic is illogical while being true it does invalidate the entire games premise.

In fantasy Magic works as is most convenient and as described by and for the writer. If for some reason it doesn't work on tuesdays that is just a part of the magic and just as nonsensical as anything else about it.

Resonance is top of my list, by far, on the ‘likely to need immediate significant House rules’ at best category. It just doesn’t feel very elegant and feels forced and bolted on - based on what I’ve seen so far.

Resonance is top of my list, by far, on the ‘likely to need immediate significant House rules’ at best category. It just doesn’t feel very elegant and feels forced and bolted on - based on what I’ve seen so far.

I guess we'll find out on Monday. But unless they bring their A game it's probably going to be the Paladin blog all over again.

I think the Paladin thread was their A game. A's can be fumbles too(I did all this work and people said Y, but we're only putting X in the playtest...).

The Resonance blog is likely to get locked though.

Personally, I'm still hoping Resonance gets cut from PF2.

Personally, I'm still hoping Resonance gets cut from PF2.

They can either:

-Get rid of Resonance (unlikely, since they're so invested in it, similar to how they are invested in Spell Points, a bad and unintuitive word that creates confusion for no reason)

or

-Get rid of Charged Items (outdated things that are simply kept for legacy purposes)

And I'd be okay with either result. But having both just turns this into a headscratcher. Why do we have charges on items when we already have a hard limit on what we can benefit from via Resonance in a given day? It's just counterintuitive and makes it more complicated than necessary.

In PF1, I could just grab a consumable, use it, and be done, and even then I'd be leery of using consumables (because I won't get them back, more often than not, and treasure is very difficult to come by in numerous as-written APs, so I have to already judge if whether now is the time to use X consumable or save it for when it might truly matter instead, something already done with charges per day effects).

Now, I might as well not bother with consumables because they lack any sort of reliability they might have had in PF1. Instead, I have to also watch and make sure I have enough Resonance (which can screw me out of other items I may want or need to use for the day), plus I have a chance of not having consumables work if I'm pushing my Resonance limit as it is, making consumables a last-ditch effort that will end badly on a coin flip, just to start, and regardless of the result, that consumable will be gone, meaning wasting consumables is much more likely in this game than in its predecessor, making it completely bad game design.

I'm not saying we can't have a game that limits what certain things can do at any given time, as it gives us a reason to utilize tactics and think smart, but I'd rather not have a dual system that doesn't play nicely with each other whatsoever, and create a great source of frustration for numerous players.

Well if it's so terrible it needs errata you can bet it won't be less than a year before we get it unless Paizo changes their... unusual... issuing errata policy.

1 year of playtesting, so, what is your point?

Dragonborn3 wrote:

Well if it's so terrible it needs errata you can bet it won't be less than a year before we get it unless Paizo changes their... unusual... issuing errata policy.

1 year of playtesting, so, what is your point?

Less than that (it will want to go to the printers months before release date.) Though I think you are right. With the amount of people who hate Resonance on principle, if there is anything wrong with it you can bet it'll be revealed within days of the document dropping.

I would prefer "PF2 has no wands" to "PF2 has wands whose only limit is how much gold you have to spend on wands" personally. If you want your wizard to wave a "magic" wand around it can just be a focus component, and not something intrinsically magical.

Put Staves back in the limelight though- you can make those basically "Resonance Batteries" that have a small collection of spells.

My character in PFS positively bristled with wands (due the 2 PA) and some one-use items too. And he was extremely reliant on being constantly under wand-activated long-duration 1st-level Wizard spells such as Mage Armor, medium-duration ones such as Shield when expecting combat and short-duration ones, such as Vanish, as needed in the actual combat scene.

Would this still be possible in PF2 with Resonance ?

If they charge resonance every time someone uses a wand in combat, then I want them to charge resonance every time a fighter uses his sword or his armor in combat. In our group, people use wands at the low levels so that the entire group doesn't get held up because the healer is out of healing. The most common wand bought is a wand of healing for the healer, so that the party can keep moving forward and not have to keep taking long rests.

So now they want to charge both gold AND resonance to use a wand.. gold for the cost of the charge, and resonance for actually using what you spent money on.

I DO like the idea of resonance REPLACING charges, but feel that both is simply abusive. Also, if they are going to charge spellcasters resonance for triggered items that do spells, they should ALSO charge fighters resonance for triggered items that do spells.. so every time they turn on fire on their flameblade that should be a resonance point. Every time they use the healing (or strength, or other power) on their armor should be a resonance point.

Boojum

Also, if they are going to charge spellcasters resonance for triggered items that do spells, they should ALSO charge fighters resonance for triggered items that do spells.. so every time they turn on fire on their flameblade that should be a resonance point. Every time they use the healing (or strength, or other power) on their armor should be a resonance point.

I'm pretty sure they've already said that using activatable powers on weapons, etc. does use resonance.

When I heard that they were having both resonance and charges, at first I was a bit alarmed, but then I realised that it you don't have charges, it's not a consumable, so you would only ever need one such wand. If they went down that route, it would alter the nature of wands and they would have to make them even rarer than they are now, such that you are only likely to ever come across one in your adventuring career. Of course, there is nothing stopping people from house ruling it that way, but it seems an unnecessary change to me, and one which would probably upset a lot of people.

It amused me to imagine the gm telling the party they find a wand of cure light wounds, only to have the players groaning, "not another one, we've already got three!" Which of course could be the problem if you don't have charges

My character in PFS positively bristled with wands (due the 2 PA) and some one-use items too. And he was extremely reliant on being constantly under wand-activated long-duration 1st-level Wizard spells such as Mage Armor, medium-duration ones such as Shield when expecting combat and short-duration ones, such as Vanish, as needed in the actual combat scene.

Would this still be possible in PF2 with Resonance ?

Really depends on the new durations. I doubt the vanish wand is going to be viable, which is honestly making me sadder for rogues than casters.

I'm more sad that the fun of cracking open a fresh wand of fireball is getting axed in order to nerf a spell (CLW) that no longer exists.
See you wand cowboy...