Savage Worlds space combat play-test

Game Master ZenFox42


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Opening the thread.


SWEX Chase Rules (Pilot info) :

Range Increment = 15"
Starting position : 3 squares apart

Each round :
1. Deal initiative cards (I am ignoring Complications from Clubs)

2. If the Pilot is Shaken, on his action his ship automatically drops back 2 Range Increments.
Then, he makes a Spirit roll to recover from Shaken :
• Failure: stays Shaken, cannot make any rolls this round.
• Success: may only take the Steady Maneuver (with no other actions) this round.
• Raise: may act normally.

The pilot may then perform a •Maneuver or *Stunt (I'm ignoring modifiers based on ships' speeds) :
• Default : Make a Driving roll. This counts as a non-Free Action, further actions incur a MAP.
---Success: You may alter your distance by one range increment (closer or farther).
--- Raise: You may alter your distance by up to two range increments (closer or farther).
--- Failure: No change in distance
--- Result of 1 or less: Out of Control.
• Steady : No roll, simply maintain current position. Driver ignores MAP when attacking.
• Push
--- As Default, but Driving roll is at -2, and may move one additional range increment (closer or farther) on Success or Raise.
OR
--- As Default, but Driving roll is at -4, and may move two additional range increments (closer or farther) on Success or Raise.
• Bootlegger Reverse (-4 to Piloting): The vehicle moves forward at half its current speed and then turns between 90 and 180 degrees (player’s choice). The vehicle instantly decelerates to a complete stop and cannot move further this round.
• Hard Brake : The driver decelerates up to three times the vehicle’s Acceleration.
• Tight Turn : The vehicle can turn up to 90 degrees.

Stunts can only be taken when the two ships are within 1 range increment of each other :
* Distract : Make an opposed Piloting roll against target.
--- Success: Target gets a -2 to next Driving roll.
--- Raise: Target gets a -2 to next Driving roll and is Shaken.


Weapon damage :

Damage that equals or exceeds the vehicle’s Toughness (= Shaken) forces the driver to make a Driving roll or go Out of Control. Each raise on the damage roll also inflicts a “Wound.” Each Wound caused to the vehicle inflicts a -1 penalty to the pilot’s Piloting skill rolls until someone repairs the damage. The attacker also scores a Critical Hit for one or more Wounds inflicted on each attack, and rolls on the Critical Hit Table to find out exactly what happened.

When a vehicle takes its 4th wound, it is automatically wrecked and the driver must make a Piloting roll or go Out of Control. A wrecked vehicle won’t run anymore, though its weapons may still be able to fire if they aren’t powered by the vehicle’s propulsion system.

Out of Control Table (2d6) :
2 : The blast from a weapon or a failed maneuver causes the rocketship to roll sideways. All crew must make an Agility roll or suffer a Fatigue level from Bumps and Bruises.
3-11 : The pilot suffers a -2 penalty to their next Piloting roll.
12 : Overcompensating in a maneuver or a weapon hit flips the rocketship end over end. Use the rules for 2, but apply a –2 penalty to the Agility roll.

Critical Hit Table (2d6) : TBD


Ok, so here's the 4 skills you have for this play-test :
Piloting
Sensors
Gunner
Engineering

You can each have a d8 in one skill, and a d6 in another skill (this is so people can take over another position if needed). Each player will have a d8 in a different skill (and I'm taking the Engineering skill).

I'd like each of you to post your "first pick" skill (the skill you'd like most to have), and a "second pick" skill (the skill you'd settle for if you don't get your "first pick" skill).

NOTE : "first pick" does NOT mean the d8 skill and "second pick" does NOT mean the d6 skill - these are which skills you'd like to get the d8 in (and so be the "primary" PC for that skill).

I'll stare at the results while cross-eyed, and announce who's got what primary skills once all the requests are in.


So, I guess you'll also have to spec out your Attributes, since Spirit and Agility rolls (so far) are required. Use the standard 5 points to boost your Attributes above the basic d4.


Male GMT

Hello there. What attributes are related to which space combat skills, just to be clear? That will affect how I spec out.

My preferences are:

1) Sensors
2) Piloting


Since you're not paying points for the skills (you just get a d8 and a d6 to put wherever you want), there's kind of a disconnect between the Attributes and their linked skills, but FWIW :

Pilot : Agility
Sensors : Smarts
Gunner : Agility
Engineering : Smarts

(Actually since Piloting and shooting weapons are not really "hands-on" in a spaceship, I could make a good argument for them to be Smarts too, but that would make Smarts the go-to Attribute...)


Male GMT

Gotcha.

I'm thinking Erebasto Geta, a swashbuckler-minded human.

Agility d8
Smarts d6
Spirit d8
Strength d4
Vigour d4

1) Piloting
2) Sensors


Male Probably human Computer Scientist 1/ Character Synthesizer 20/ Crazy 99

Gunner
Engineer

No one questions here.

Dark Archive

Whereas piloting and engineering are spoken for I shall say my first pick is sensors and my 2nd is piloting.

Methinks I should reserve my build until I know which kind of character...and which specialty, I'm playing.


ALL : don't worry about building a full-fledged PC, all you really need are the space combat skills and Attribute list (see above post for how to do that). But if you *want* to build a complete PC, go for it!

Decimus : you get a d8 in Piloting, and you can put the d6 into any other (space combat) skill. You also get the Ace Edge (regardless of your Agility).

Adam : you get a d8 in Gunner, and you can put the d6 into any other (space combat) skill. You also get the Steady Hands Edge (regardless of your Agility). I don't know if a spaceship counts as an Unstable Platform, but this will take care of it one way or the other.

Atlas : you get a d8 in Sensors, and you can put the d6 into any other (space combat) skill. Sorry, I couldn't think of an Edge that would help you with Sensors. If you can think of anything, I'll consider it.


Space Combat Actions

Piloting rolls (in addition to Chase Rules options)
• Evasive Maneuvers (contested Piloting): The pilot may attempt to take evasive maneuvers, granting a Deflection bonus (+2 to be hit), in exchange for a –2 penalty to all other ship actions (e.g. attacks). It is also used to break free of a "Lined-Up Shot".
• Line Up a Shot (contested Piloting): The Pilot may need to position the vehicle in order to bring some (or all) weapons to bear. Without this action, all Fixed weapons have a -2 Shooting penalty applied.
• The pilot may use his Piloting roll for Gunner, ONLY when using the Fixed weapon, and only the pilot may use the Fixed weapon.

Gunner rolls
• Fire Weapon : Operator may use Gunner roll to fire any single shipboard weapon he can control. Multiple shots incur the normal MAP.
• Target subsystem : for a –4 to the Gunner roll, the target gets a –2 to a subsystem (engines, guns, sensors, shields) of the Gunner's choice for 1 round on a damage Success, and the subsystem becomes inoperable on a damage Raise (subsystem [and the ship] has 1 Wound). Do not roll on the Critical Hit table when using this option.

Sensor rolls
• Ping/Designate Target : The crewman can utilize the ship's sensor suite to illuminate the target or otherwise aid in providing a more accurate firing solution to the ship's gunners. This provides a +2 Gunner bonus.
• Locate Incoming : the crewman uses the sensors to identify incoming threats, providing a +2 to the pilot’s Piloting roll.
• Jamming (contested Sensors): The crewman may use the ship's electronic warfare suite to attempt to block or overpower communications.
• Spoof (contested Sensors): The ship can use its sensors and electronic warfare systems to garble the sensor returns of the enemy ship and its fire control systems. The spoofed enemy ship has a -2 penalty to all Shooting attempts while Spoofing is active.

Engineering rolls
• Boost Subsystem : With a successful roll, the ship's engineer may redirect the ship's reserve power to fortify a single subsystem, providing a +2 skill bonus to Piloting, Gunner, or Sensors. Or, the bonus could be applied to Shield Toughness or Deflection (+2), 1 weapon’s damage (+2) or to Speed (+2). The bonus is +4 on a Raise. Another subsystem (of the engineer’s choice) must take a –2 to all rolls, regardless of the number of Successes. This can only be done for one system at a time, but continues between rounds until a new subsystem is chosen, or the option is dropped (Free Action).
• Damage Control (modified by # of ship’s Wounds) : Temporarily repair battle damage (seal breaches, fight fires, etc); repairs only last for the duration of combat (or shortly thereafter). Repairs 1 Wound on a Success, 2 Wounds on one or more Raises. Can be applied to specifically Wounded subsystems.
• Raise Shields : activate 1 Shield Pod for Absorption (Soak an incoming Wound), Armor (+2 Toughness), or Deflection (+2 to be hit). Increases to 2 Wounds / +4 on a Raise. The effects of multiple uses of Armor or Deflection are not cumulative—only the highest modifier applies.


Space Combat Melee

Any ship gets a minimum of one action per PC or Wild Card aboard. Most starships have enough crew aboard that they could theoretically have someone doing all of the possible actions – but to keep it FFF!, they get one Offensive Action (Fire Weapon allows them to fire all manned weapons), one Defensive Action, and one Maneuver Action. A Miscellaneous action may be substituted for any of the above.

Offensive Actions
• Fire Weapon (Gunner, Piloting)
• Ping/Designate Target (Sensors)

Defensive Actions
• Jamming (contested Sensors)
• Spoof (contested Sensors)
• Raise Shields (Engineering)

Maneuver Actions (Pilot Only)
• Any Chase Piloting action
• Evasive Maneuvers (contested Piloting)
• Line Up a Shot (contested Piloting)

Miscellaneous Actions
• Boost Subsystem (Engineering)
• Damage Control (Engineering)
• Locate Incoming (Sensors)

Cooperative rolls
Any PC can help another, the prime makes their roll and then gains a +1 to their roll for every success and raise their helpers have. RAW says you can't help a roll unless you have the skill, but in a starship scene I'd let any applicable skill work. So, for example while the pilot is dodging, the other PCs can be running the sensors and providing the pilot with an edge in what they can perceive or the engineer boosts the engines to give the pilot a little more speed etc... Same for the gunner, maybe the sensor operator improves active recognition for the targeting, while the engineer boost recharge rate on the guns by actively helping.

No acing on Damage rolls!


ALL - please read the last two posts carefully, and post any questions/concerns you might have about them before we begin. Thanks!

And Decimus - please read over the Chase rules at the top, and post any questions/concerns you might have about them.

I have posted ALL the rules in the Recruitment board for easy reference in the future.

Dark Archive

I am fine with all these things but i have much vexation over your limit of types of actions.
I would much prefer it if every station was limited to one action [the pilot pilots the gunner shoots etc] but...
If the engineering is raising shields how does that interfere with my ability to jam?
If he is at his station flipping switches to vent oxygen or use fire extinguishers how does that stop me from looking at the radar to locate objects?

Wait when you say 'they' is this per ship or per person? Like if I'm spoofing someone else could come over and start jamming?

Dark Archive

Also you may wanna open up gameplay just so we can dot to get it on our board. Otherwise such things are easy to forget about. =)


I hope to get these all read either tonight, or tomorrow night at the latest. It's been a busy week.

Dark Archive

I've re-read the space combat melee post and I still don't get it. Can we please get an example to illustrate what you are going for?


So everyone is all in one ship, but since you're Wild Cards you each get an Action card every round.

The Space Combat Melee format says that not everyone will be able to take a primary action every round (what if there were 6 PCs? - if everyone could act, that'd be overkill).

So, in order of action this round, there's :
Engineering
Gunner
Sensors
Piloting

Now, each player posts what they'd like to do, and a consensus is made on which of the 3 primary actions will be taken (realistically, there should be a "captain" who delegates actions, but that takes away the other player's empowerment).

So, the Gunner says he'd like to fire (Offensive). Everyone agrees that's important. The Engineer says he'd like to Repair a current Wound on the ship (Miscellaneous). Also important. The Sensors guy says he'd like to Spoof (Defensive), but the Pilot says he'd like to Line Up a Shot (Maneuver) so he can fire the Fixed weapon next round, but people decide that the -2 to being hit is more important than 3 rolls to *possibly* hit the other ship. So the Pilot decides to do a Co-operative roll to help the Sensor roll (by weaving around, he could increase the penalty to being hit).

Note that if the Sensors guy does Spoof, the Engineer could not, for example, Raise Shields because they're both Defensive actions. Or if the Gunner does shoot, the Sensors guy could not, for example, Ping/Designate Target because they're both Offensive.

Hope this helps!

P.S. - Gameplay is open, as far as I can tell.


"Any ship gets a minimum of one action per PC or Wild Card aboard."

This implies that it is possible to have more than this number of actions. How might that come about?

********************
I'm not keen on the idea of building discussion about which actions to implement into the rules. As IC discussion in between or during actions to debate for future turns, absolutely. In pbp, momentum is important and debate could bring starship combat to a grinding halt. Better to debate IC and keep things moving IMHO.

***************

This look correct?

Piloting d8
Gunnery d6 (decided that it made more sense to have a backup gunner)

Agility d8
Smarts d6
Spirit d8
Strength d4
Vigour d4

Ace


Erebasto wrote:

"Any ship gets a minimum of one action per PC or Wild Card aboard."

This implies that it is possible to have more than this number of actions. How might that come about?

In more advanced ships with an AI, or if the PC's ship had remote-controlled drones, they would also get actions in addition to the PC's. But those aren't available in this play test.

I agree that PbP debate would really slow things down, but I don't see any other way to do it using the Space Combat Melee rules as written (I didn't see the need for debate myself until I wrote the above example).

The only alternative is for each PC to declare their action, independent of the others, and then let happen what may. While that would work for this 4-PC ship (because there's 4 combat skills), what about a 5 or 6 PC ship? I suppose the first 4 to post could get their actions, and the remaining PC's would get to do Co-operative rolls...


I would actually advocate for the latter model. This would make IC cooperation extremely important, whether jointly or from a previously-decided captain to organise combat affairs. But I see that as better than pbp grinding to a halt with OOC discussion for each round.

A third option is "best of x". Once say two have agreed, that's a majority for one variation.


I may not have made it clear, but the debate about which 3 out of 4 actions to take would be done IC - each PC shouting "I want to do X!", then the PCs hashing out which 3 out of 4 to do IC. But it would still slow things down a lot, whether it's IC or OOC.

The problem with a "captain" is that all the other PCs lose their freedom of choice, combat becomes very boring for them.

Can you give an example of "best of X"? I'm not sure what you mean by it.


What I envision is more:

*Round 1 happens with IC commentary as characters see what the other characters are doing and respond vocally (or not).

*Round 2 all characters have heard commentary from round 1. This should bear on their round 2 actions.

**************

As for best of 2, an example would be if two characters had called for a course of action and player three is away that day unexpectedly. That means the game could move on without every single person having to ratify decisions each round.


So, those that post first get to do what they want, while later posters are more constrained in their options (if we're following the original rules)?

And, if we're following the original rules, the fourth poster just picks someone they can make a Co-operative roll for.

I think that could work, but I want everyone to tell me :

Do you think this is fair, given your particular PbP posting schedule?

And, if you like this idea in general, would you prefer it using the original rules, or drop the "3 actions" and "categories of actions"?

(Keep in mind, I usually only check my games once a day in the morning [EST], so I might often be the last poster.)

Dark Archive

ZenFox42 wrote:

or drop the "3 actions" and "categories of actions"?

This.

Simple reason.

Let's say its a one-on-one combat. Reasonable, it's probably going to happen a lot.

We, or just the captain, or whatever, come to a general consensus that Engineering needs to Raise Shields. Again, reasonable. Probably going to happen a lot.

What then does Sensors do?

Sensors is locked down to one action: Locate Incoming.

But this already all the ships there are! It's one on one! Locate Incoming what?

So they can do a meaningless action, or support someone.

So Sensors actually has no specialty. If the ship is raising shields (and, you know as well as I do that there is DEFINITELY a 'numbers say this is best' scenario where that might happen every round) then they are simply deciding where to help, and that's now limited to what their secondary skill is.
So I'm doing nothing except helping in the thing that I'm not even that good at. Possibly all the time.

Again, can we please get the explanation of why we're not using the Starfinder method of actions? Pilot gets to pilot, Engineers get to engineer, etc. BUT! A Gunner gets to fire -one- gun. 6 PCs just mean that there can be more than one gun fired. (But not two Engineering actions because we have a rule that only one person can do an "action" for the specialized positions, which is anything but Gunnery.)

This of course is separate from the fridge logic of why raising shields interferes with doing something gnarly with sensors, but that is another story....


To be clear, I found this system of rules on-line, and thought they seemed pretty good. The reason for this play-test is to shake out the bugs in the system.

I hadn't considered all the possible combinations of "if one player does X, then another player is limited to only Y". Your example shows a major flaw in the system.

I'm switching to "everyone can take any action they have a skill in".
Anyone can take multiple actions in a turn, with the usual MAP.
Different people can use the same skill in the same turn if desired (except Piloting).

Atlas wrote:
...why raising shields interferes with doing something gnarly with sensors...

I'm ignoring any cross-effects between systems, to Keep It Short and Simple (my version of KISS).

Atlas wrote:
...then they are simply deciding where to help, and that's now limited to what their secondary skill is.

Please note, in the description of Co-operative rolls above, it says that anyone can use their best skill to help someone else using a different skill.

Atlas wrote:
...can we please get the explanation of why we're not using the Starfinder method of actions?...(But not two Engineering actions because we have a rule that only one person can do an "action" for the specialized positions, which is anything but Gunnery.)

I just looked at the Starfinder space combat rules - WOW, are they complicated! But my reading of them says that a ship can have multiple Engineers and multiple "Sensors" (Science Officers), that's why I said above that different people can use the same skill in a round.

If I have time, I *might* read the Starfinder rules in-depth to see if there are any other simple actions that could be linked to these space combat skills.

Decimus - your "build" looks good.
Atlas, Adam - can you submit your "builds" (Attributes and space combat skills) soon? Thanks!


So, I just got a response to a PM to the creator of this system, and he clarified that the "3 actions maximum" applies only to NPC ships, and the "Any ship gets a minimum of one action per PC or Wild Card aboard" applies to PC ships, which means they can NOT use the action categories (Defensive, Offensive, etc.).

So when running my NPC ship, I will pick 3 actions from the different categories, but without paying attention to the actual skill used by each action. So I might Raise Shields (Defensive, Engineering) and Damage Control (Miscellaneous, Engineering), because I'm assuming there's more than one person on-board with the Engineering skill.

Dark Archive

Sensors d8
Engineering d6

Agility d6
Smarts d8
Spirit d8
Strength d4
Vigor d4

Lucky?


Atlas - sure, Luck works. You'll get an extra Bennie at the start of each play-test.

Adam?

Dark Archive

Wanna pm him?

Not sure if anyone else dotted. (I go back and forth on dotting or dotting and deleting. Without deleting then we at least know who jas chimed in.


Male Probably human Computer Scientist 1/ Character Synthesizer 20/ Crazy 99

Sorry. When I posted I was on my phone and then well... I am not exaggerating when I say I've earned the absent-minded part of absent-minded professor.

I'll catch up, but here's the stats.

STRENGTH - d4
AGILITY - d8
VIGOR - d4
SMARTS - d8
SPIRIT - d6

Gunner - d8
Pilot - d6

Steady Hands


Ok, are we ready to start the first play-test?

If you have any more preliminary questions, post them here, as soon as possible!

Dark Archive

Meh. Let's get thos ball of madness started and go from there. =)


Male Probably human Computer Scientist 1/ Character Synthesizer 20/ Crazy 99

Eh, I learn better by doing anyway. Let's light this torch and see what she does!


Ok, so by noon tomorrow (Friday) EST, I'll have posted your ship's specs in the Gameplay board, and assigned Action cards to your ship and your opponent's ship. See you there!

Dark Archive

How long do shields last?
Is the pod consumed when used?
Do we activate a pod before the round or after we take a wound?


Apologies for delay. This week has been tricky for me getting to update pbp.

Dark Archive

Girl Human | A: +0/+12 |D: +0 |T:+22 |F: +9||R:+7|W:+15(MS11)| HeroPt: 2 |Init: |Conditions: flying
useful:
[to all]:[i][b]' '[b][i]

I do not much likey this thing where the actions take effect the next round. Given the often significant delays in PbP it seems prone to confusion. Also, there's the delay gratification in my action not meaning anything until some time when the situation may change.

I think this might be remedied by different phases. Nothing huge, just all non-gunnery actions happen, and then gunnery happens, adding appropriate modifiers from the prior round.

I mean, we can try it your way now, but just keep an eye on it.


Kara :

Shields last indefinitely, or until they are Wounded.
Pods are not consumed.
Pods must be activated *before* the ship takes any damage in order to affect that damage.

The reason I said that your action takes effect in the next round is that you posted your action before I took my action (even tho my Initiative card was higher than yours), so your action *has* to take effect in the next round for it to make sense. In reality, your action happened after my action, so it was too late to affect things in the first round.

I'm going to try tracking everything in the "Status" spoiler.

Kara wrote:
I think this might be remedied by different phases. Nothing huge, just all non-gunnery actions happen, and then gunnery happens, adding appropriate modifiers from the prior round.

Still trying to sneak the Starfinder rules in, eh? ;) I intend to look at them in depth, but just haven't had time yet.

But, a question : if you're "adding appropriate modifiers from the prior round", how is that any different than what I'm doing? Or did you mean from the prior phase?


So in Starfinder, there are the following phases :
========================================================================
1. Engineering
The Engineers on all ships (if present) each take an action.

2. Helm
As they move their starships, pilots can attempt additional skill checks to perform dangerous maneuvers or push their vessels beyond their specifications.

Also during this phase, any character taking on the role of Sensors can use the Starship’s systems to scan vessels or target foes. Sensors must act immediately before or after their starship’s pilot, but they can jointly decide the order they act (not in PbP!).

3. Gunnery
During the gunnery phase, gunners fire their starships’ weapons.
========================================================================
I don't see any advantage to this. True, the Engineering or Sensors rolls could help the Gunner, but they could equally help the Pilot. And wouldn't forcing players to wait for other players to post before them slow down the PbP process even more?

I'm going to say that everyone "acts" in the order that they post, but if a roll is made that provides a bonus to another roll, that bonus is applied in the next round, since "everything is happening at once". That will avoid a LOT of ret-conning!


I've reviewed the Starfinder actions, and either they're covered in this system one way or another, or too trivial or niche to be worth adding. I did add one Piloting action :

Turn in Place (Free Action, no roll) – while not moving, the ship can turn to face any direction.

Dark Archive

Girl Human | A: +0/+12 |D: +0 |T:+22 |F: +9||R:+7|W:+15(MS11)| HeroPt: 2 |Init: |Conditions: flying
useful:
[to all]:[i][b]' '[b][i]

So, it looks like Designate is much, much better than spoof.

Spoof is opposed, which the enemy gets to oppose as a free action.

So at best it has a 50% chance of working, and if it fails it costs the enemy nothing.

But Designate is a straight roll, which can not be opposed.

My suggestion: Either make all sensor rolls opposed (if they can stop our sensors messing with their sensors, why can't they stop our sensors grabbing a harder lock on their ship) or make none of them opposed.


It looks that way.


Male? Human
Quick Stats:
Base Reaction: +2 (if Belter or Martian)/-2 (pirate) Mods: -2 (Social Stigma-Belter) DR: 105/75 (skull & torso/Else), HP: 15/15, FP: 12/12, HT: 12, Dodge: 9, Will: 10, Fright Check: 10, Basic Speed: 6.5, Basic Move: 6, Perception: 13, Vision: 15, Hearing: 13, Favored Attack: Guns (Rifle/TL10)16, Favored Defense: Dodge 9

That or rolls that are opposed have better effects or degrees of effect that increase based on the margins.


I see the point, but consider : Designate is done by the ship, and benefits the same ship. No contest.

But Spoof is done by the ship, to the other ship. Sounds like a contest to me.

Locate Incoming is done by the ship, and benefits the same ship. No contest.

Jamming is done by the ship, to the other ship. Contest.

I could see raising the penalty for Spoofing to -4, since the chances of getting it are much lower (45% [contested] vs. 81% [non-contested] for this scenario).

Is everyone happy with that?


I'm okay with that.


Male? Human
Quick Stats:
Base Reaction: +2 (if Belter or Martian)/-2 (pirate) Mods: -2 (Social Stigma-Belter) DR: 105/75 (skull & torso/Else), HP: 15/15, FP: 12/12, HT: 12, Dodge: 9, Will: 10, Fright Check: 10, Basic Speed: 6.5, Basic Move: 6, Perception: 13, Vision: 15, Hearing: 13, Favored Attack: Guns (Rifle/TL10)16, Favored Defense: Dodge 9

Works for me.


A more pressing question imho:

What do we call our ship?

I suggest "The Starling"


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Male Probably human Computer Scientist 1/ Character Synthesizer 20/ Crazy 99

I dunno, Target Practice seems more fitting at the moment. :P

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