My condolences. Tatienne.
So, despite Aurelian's sensible suggestion, I don't think Wild Empathy works on vermin at all. I'm aware of at least one monster that can do that & probably some archtypes.
Yes, Wild Empathy doesn't help much with vermin. However, I happen to have something better! My feat Wild Speech doesn't just let me continue to speak Common while wild shaped-- it also gives me the ability to speak with creatures of the same type as to what I'm shifted to:
When using wild shape to take the form of an animal, you may use speak with animals to communicate with animals of your assumed form. This is a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your druid level, and you may use it for a number of minutes per day equal to your druid level. These minutes do not have to be consecutive, but must be used in one-minute increments.
The question kind of hinges on how technical you want to be about the word 'animal' vs the word 'vermin.' It's very clear that if I were to shift into a squirrel, I could talk to squirrels-- but the ability does say animals. Whether you as the GM understand that to be the rules definition of 'animal'- a specific subtype of creature that does not include vermine-- or just the general sense we mean it in English-- is up to you.
I can see it being a valid ruling to stick with the 'rules' definition of it, but if that will be the ruling I won't use my last wild shape of the day to become a bee, haha.
eta On a closer reading, I don't think I can actually shift to BEING vermin, so it's a moot point, never mind, never mind.
I had a death in the family and will be leaving town, trying to tie up some loose ends at work, etc. over the next week. Posting may be slow going for a bit.
GM Netherpongo, sorry if I missed something - what items are you talking about here?
My condolences, I've been busy for the last few days and I missed this. Sorry for your loss.
I'm on vacation this week, so not sure how much time I'll have for posting. I may still have time to post today and Tuesday, but definitely don't expect to be posting Wednesday-Friday. I'm hoping to get going again Saturday evening.
Have a good trip!
Is Aurelian's comment about the armor being too heavy a roleplaying or preference bit? By rules, my understanding is that mithral medium armors are light armor equivalents for almost every purpose.
It could also be an aversion to an ACP penalty as well, I guess. Mithral chainmail still has a bit of that going on.
Edit: Ah...probably due to ACP applying to attack rolls due to a lack of medium armor proficiency. It's been a while since I delved into the precise details.
While we're on the topic of clockworks and winding from the Gameplay thread, I was realizing that this is something I may not have pointed out clearly enough. Unlike constructs like golems, clockworks can't just keep running on their own. They depend on being wound with special keys to continue functioning and can usually only run for a number of days, maybe into the weeks, without attention.
So the clockworks patrolling the beach were unusual for this reason while the clockwork spy is more common. One more thing that probably should have stood out more than we noticed at the time was back in the Faceless Temple: one room the party looked in very briefly had a clockwork with a key embedded in its back. (The book doesn't say so, but I read this as a permanent install rather than a key just happening to sit in the slot) It came up in the room description, but if you don't know how clockworks work it doesn't stand out as much.
I haven't gone through the books to make sure that all the active clockworks have an available explanation for why they are wound, but the ones I can think of all fit.
Have a good trip!
Is Aurelian's comment about the armor being too heavy a roleplaying or preference bit? By rules, my understanding is that mithral medium armors are light armor equivalents for almost every purpose.
It could also be an aversion to an ACP penalty as well, I guess. Mithral chainmail still has a bit of that going on.
Edit: Ah...probably due to ACP applying to attack rolls due to a lack of medium armor proficiency. It's been a while since I delved into the precise details.
You are right! Proficiency is the rub. There’s only one (afaik) medium armor that actually counts as light for proficiency, the celestial chainmail.
Houghton would gladly use the armor, too.
It's disappointing, but Houghton might be the only one that wants the armors. Druids have druid issues and all the rest are light armor types.
Yeah, Zay don't do the armor. Though it actually might not be awful for Taty-- she's not proficient, but it's enough of an upgrade it MIGHT be worth a feat, or sucking up the penalty which isn't all that awful. I had a character in PFS who just ate the -1 penalty on his mithril non-proficient armor for ages because mathwise it wasn't worth me spending a feat to remove it, and he still hit like a tank much of the time anyway.
She actually has a mithril breastplate on her wishlist, and that's medium?
Tatienne can consider it when she returns, anyway.
We're getting close-ish to the Faceless Temple again. It's probably a good idea to ask if the party would like to re-visit some of the rooms that they went through very quickly last time.
Clockwork Parts room - this is where an inactive clockwork was found with a key embedded in its back
Gear-Shaped room with clockworks
Additionally, there is the room with elementals you might want to clear out still
When I was looking back at those older posts, I also noticed that Tatienne had failed to identify a few items from the rooms before the ones I linked to. It's been a day since then, and she would be able to try again.
Hi all- I'm back in town and hope to be caught up soon. Taty does indeed have mithral breastplate on her wishlist and given the buffs she can put together I'm OK with the penalty for non-proficiency as I think she can still hit pretty well most of the time. That said, I'm fine with Houghton taking it as well. Ideally, Taty will be attacking from the second line most of the time.
At the moment, it isn't either/or. The party found two sets of +2 mithral chainmail & is figuring what to do with them. Houghton is the only one with medium proficiency.
Oh, thank you - I haven't read the gameplay yet!
Yeah, armor for all!! :D
An idea for magic item identification. In the Ironfang game I pkay in, my sorcerer just takes 10 on all newly found gear & we track which items she fails on for later attempts.
If we do that here, I'd assume the take 10 rolls are made without Identify, so a result of 22 would be CL7, for now. Anything higher would be a next-day effort. Do we want to use that method? We'd need to be better about tracking unidentified stuff.
Sure, that sounds good to me, GM. I'll try and track unidentified items on Taty's character sheet as well, as an additional check to them slipping by.
Catching up: You all are correct that Aurelian can't use the armor. Which is a bummer.
--
I like that plan item identification. I'll be honest that at a certain level, I just tell folks, since it's easier on the GM. Especially if it's a simple +1 or +2 something. If something's cursed, I'll do a secret Spellcraft check.
--
Also, slippers of the triton sound pretty cool for whomever may need it. Aurelian has a cloak of the manta ray, so not much use for him. I forget everyone else's Swim/water breathing status.
I think we basically all took the player's guide seriously about needing ways to deal with water, because several of us are already really great at it. Thus we have run into some redundancy with the many water items we've found.
Zay definitely doesn't need any help in the water.
That's a big part of the game, so definitely we're all going to have our eyes on that. This does give a +10 to Swim speed, so may be worth it for folks who don't have something in their foot slot.
An OOC summation of some of the things Zay would be ICly muttering about:
*Haste up on the party at the start would be good if Taty can oblige--- I'd like to get off at least one high level summons first so that the critter can benefit.
*I can prep some barkskins, among other buffs. I'll be stuck in a caster role for this fight since I can't break the elemental DR, which means my major contributions are buffs and summons, because my directly offensive spells target reflex, and we already know these creatures are very, very fast.
*The less spells I have to spend on buffs, the more slots I have for cures and summons, so if I have overlap with Houghton on buffs, we can share some of the buffing duties?
*Any spells we can do that boost the direct damage of our party are good; also good are spells that keep Taty alive. She actually is our heaviest hitter given Aurelian's precision-damage nerfing, but she's a glass cannon. So I'll probably be prepping a bull's strength and a bear's endurance for Taty?
*Looks like Houghton also does decent damage, and he and Tatienne both use longspears. So maybe we try and bottleneck the elementals in a 10-or-15 foot wide corridor, Aurelian and Invandi in the front line buffed for AC, Houghton and Taty hitting from the second row, and Zay flying above to pass out cures as needed to keep people on their feet, and summons for flanking bonuses?
*I'm honestly tempted to throw an obscuring mist again when we close with the elementals, depending to some degree on layout. It does make things harder for us as well, but it also means we can close to adjacent without taking a lot of AOOs in the process (remember how much reach they have, I think it was 15' for the really big ones?), and means we can also withdraw if we have to without taking huge AOOs as well. I'd rather know now if the rest of the party is hard-opposed to that as a tactic, then cast it in a fight and have it be a problem that I did so.
If the GM can chip in as a reminder, the party had three basic problems the last time you fought these guys:
#1 - you were all split up because of how the scenario said the power units needed to be activated. This was also before I realized just how dangerous the elementals were going to be.
#2 - precision damage & criticals won't work. Also some DR x/- because elementals are like that.
#3 - their attack rolls are ridiculously high. This was the main thing I didn't expect until I actually looked at their stats last time. They also get bonuses to attack vs characters wielding or wearing metal, which should be everyone but Zay. So armor class buffs aren't completely useless but it shouldn't be your main focus. The critters are quite likely to hit you (not as much as the clockwork soldiers you were fighting a bit ago though). They don't hit that hard without the electricity damage.
-------
The party managed to bloody both of the smaller (Large size) elementals but it doesn't look like they even touched the Huge size one yet. I don't think there's a reason the elementals wouldn't recover at least hp equal to HD for each day you guys rested between then and now though? So they might not be bloodied anymore.
The huge elemental has to squeeze to fit into the squares with the smaller power units. The elementals aren't otherwise bothered by their presence. Fleshy people aren't so lucky.
Re: slippers
Taty just got a nice set of armor so I'm hesitant to ask for more. But... if everyone else can breathe water and swim, Taty will take them. She has a ring of swimming but no other means to swim or to breathe water.
Re: elementals
I think we'll do better this time. We'll be prepared and can choose the terms of engagement. @Zay, I like your idea to go in formation and I'm in favor of the obscuring mist. It will resolve a lot of issues with the creatures' reach.
Taty can certainly haste everyone. She can put out two 3rd level spells/day, so she could also good hope everyone. However, maybe it would be better to keep a 3rd level spell in reserve? that way, if the combat goes more than 8 rounds and we need to escape, she could cast haste again and we could split.
Other buffs:
Heroism: Taty would cast this on herself in lieu of good hope, and maybe Houghton, to help punch through that DR?
Alter Self and Mirror Image: Self-only, on Taty
Shared Training: Can give others outflank with this spell. Probably not worth it if we're bunched in a hallway.
So, with AL, Haste, Heroism/Good hope, Alter Self, Bull's Strength, ACP Taty would have a power attack of +17/+17/+12 for 1d8+20. I forget - backliners get the -4 attack for attacking into melee, right, like ranged attackers? If so, summon flankers would be helpful.
Re: slippers
Taty just got a nice set of armor so I'm hesitant to ask for more. But... if everyone else can breathe water and swim, Taty will take them. She has a ring of swimming but no other means to swim or to breathe water.
....
So, with AL, Haste, Heroism/Good hope, Alter Self, Bull's Strength, ACP Taty would have a power attack of +17/+17/+12 for 1d8+20. I forget - backliners get the -4 attack for attacking into melee, right, like ranged attackers? If so, summon flankers would be helpful.
I think you should go for it as far as the slippers go!
As far as I know, reach attacks don't take a penalty, no. If they do, I've been playing it wrong for ages. ;)
Of course, we may not get lucky enough to get them in a corridor to bottleneck, but if we can focus fire and not be all spread out, even that will help.
On second thought I'll forego an initial summons pre-haste-- it's a nice idea to get a hasted rhino, but it'll be a pain to try and move around the rhino, and I can just summon them on the far side for the flanks.
*
Our illustrious GM's points about these guys' high to-hit is well taken. Barkskin doesn't help a lot if it means they need to roll an 8 to hit you rather than a 5, etc. I might instead load those 2nd level slots with more Bull's Strengths or other spells. I'll revisit the druid spell list.
Wouldn't mist give full concealment to anyone the reach attackers can swing at? It sounds counterproductive to your GM.
Heroism doesn't give a damage bonus. Good Hope does.
What are you planning to Alter Self to, Tatienne?
I've always played that reach attacks take the -4 if you are swinging past your allies. Soft cover is soft cover. However, reach attacks also use ranged cover rules and my understanding is that a player can choose one of the top corners of their square (a cube really) to do the targeting from. So a medium cover ally wouldn't penalize attacks vs a Large or larger enemy.
Good point on the full concealment and reach attacks, GM. It does indeed sound counterproductive. 5' steps it is :) Also, thanks for the catch on heroism. I recalled them being functionally the same. So 1d8+18 damage with heroism vs. 1d8+20 with good hope.
As for Alter Self, I dunno how you want to handle in-character knowledge. I assume Taty would need to know of the creature she'd be assuming the form of. She is very educated and widely traveled, so she'd know of a lot of creatures. Should I make a knowledge roll to figure out if Taty knows of a specific creature in regards to the spell? As for this fight, a basic form - like orc - would probably suffice. She's just looking for the +2 size bonus to strength.
Re: soft cover. Good to know that medium cover allies wouldn't penalize attacks vs a larger or larger enemy. I eventually plan on taking this feat to counteract the soft cover issue with her reach weapons.
I stand corrected on the soft cover, though as Netherpongo says, stabbing 'up' basically means it won't apply for large creatures.
Otherwise, maybe Taty wants (down the road) to take Phalanx Formation, a feat that negates that.
*
Re the mist: that's a good point. The ability to avoid those initial AOOs when we close is probably not worth the whole 'your higher-damage hitters are taking a 50% suck chance every swing'. Meh!
*
I'm discovering druid spell list has a lot of weird, niche spells I have to remember for the future, haha. But not much in the way of direct buffs such as I want for this fight, other than Bull's Strength/Bear's Endurance, alas. So I might prep two each of those, and throw them on Houghton and Taty. Or three B.S. and a Cat's Grace for Aurelian?
Haha ninja'd by Taty regarding a few things!
IMO, Barkskin is still worth having, even if it only changes the die result from 5 to 8 or something similar. As long as you still aren't being hit on 2...
With two druidic-y casters, you can probably sort things out.
------
Tatienne: regarding Alter Self knowledge, I'd agree that you probably shouldn't pull something really obscure that Tatienne wouldn't have heard about before. I don't know that you have to have seen a creature, but drow for instance probably don't come standard in material component pouches. Orcs are common enough that they should be well within range. Half orc and orc are identical for the purposes of Alter Self I think. Technically you could even choose human and you'd still get the +2 Str bonus you are looking for.
Overall, I don't think we're much at risk of you needing to pick something really obscure though. Alter Self just doesn't reward you much for ranging far afield. It's a larger issue when we start talking about stronger polymorph spells.
I would agree barkskin is worth it, even if it means they may hit still on an 8. I think the big thing will be the protection from electricity.
Other than that, with bull's strength, I should be able to do some damage, at least.
I thought Aurelian had a Dexterity non-precision replacement for damage on his attacks. I think Bull's Strength won't help him? Cat's Grace might if he doesn't have a dex belt.
Tatienne getting the slippers is cool.
Invandi only has potions/sponges of water breathing and some swim fins, but it should be enough to last a while.
He'd suggest borrowing the ring of swimming, but already has two ring slots taken.
Hopefully we come across another set of slippers or something similar later in the game
For the elemental fight, Invandi is sort of limited. I plan on starting the combat with Martial Flexibility using Lantern Style and Lantern Light so a thrown shield can bypass DR/-.
Not much else in his bag of tricks to help.
Duh, you're right. I do have fencer's grace, so get Dex to damage. So cat's grace is what I need (I have no Dex belt).
One cat's grace, coming up for the swordsman!
Houghton wants nothing in terms of breathing/swimming, so go at it whomever.
Reorganizing spells, etc. Had a tiring weekend for my daughter's birthday, so I'm a little delayed in updating everything.
1st
* I'd like to have two shield of faiths - one to give out to someone and one to Houghton. It's a +3 deflection bonus.
2nd
* I will memorize three barkskins
* I think opening with one spiritual weapon would be good since it bypasses DR
3rd -
* Looks like communal resist energy is weirdly not a shaman spell - could someone else (Zay I think) take that?
* I could summon a wall of mist to split them - a DC 15 strength check is somewhat hard for large air-ish elementals (whom are not too strong). Also - Houghton can see through it, for what it's worth
* I could have magic circle against evil up - though most elementals are neutral, so that might not help anyone.
* I could have prayer cast when we head in -since there's no save on it, it helps all of us and hurts all foes equally
4th -
* I thought of casting slowing mud on all the foes but that requires a reflex save so maybe not
* I could memorize two protection from natural attacks but they're kind of limited.
* I could memorize a few dismissal spells - just send the big one back to their plane!
* In the absence of any other ideas - I could do a greater false life, keep restoration, and keep divine power
* I could do ice storm too for some auto-damage.
Spirits -
Possibilities
Ancestors gets me a spiritual weapon in the spirit slot, a heroism, and a spiritual ally
Dark Tapestry gets us black tentacles
Flame gets us fireball
Mammoth could get us stoneskin?
Stone gets us stone call and wall of stone
Tribal gets us one free teamwork feat and spiritual ally
Some good thoughts there, Houghton--
a) They fly, which Zay and the others could confirm, so nothing that hits the ground like the mud spell helps us at all
b) ice storm's not bad, the auto damage with no save is handy, even if we may not pierce their DR. I might bother memorizing it myself
c) Wall of Mist is an interesting spell, hadn't seen it before! It's dumb it's not a druid spell, haha. Could be useful, though we will be fighting both large and huge elementals-- their strength is not negligible.
d) Yeah, circle against evil won't help, I don't think.
3) If you want to prep 3 barkskins, that's great, I'll cover protecting people from lightning and also some buffing of stats.
f) the elementals are crazy fast, so anything that targets their reflex save is likely to have an uphill battle, though half damage is still half damage *Shrug*
Regarding spirits: I'd say stoneskin is awesome but I don't think we have the expensive, rare material component that it needs, so unless your spirit feature lets you bypass the component requirement it's probably not worth it. Stone call and wall of stone could potentially be useful.
I'll figure out my prep list tonight based on all this discussion.
Alright, Zay's spells are prepped.
I think that our plan is to do the minutes-per-level type buffs at the complex entrance, and beeline for the last place we knew the elementals to be. If we don't encounter them before we go into 'their' chamber maybe haste right before we stick our heads around the corner? Or haste on first round of combat, either makes sense. I defer to Taty there, it's her spell after all ;)
Buffs from me, going out to:
(Everyone) Communal resist energy electricity, 10 resist
(Aurelian) Cat's Grace, +4 to Dex
(Houghton) Bull's Strength, +4 to STR
(Tatienne) Bull's Strength, +4 to STR, Bear's Endurance, +4 to Con
(Invandi gets no Christmas bonuses from me :( )
(Self) Heightened Awareness (when we roll initiative against the elementals I will dismiss it for the +4 bonus), Resinous Skin
I'll be taking a charge from the wand of Mage Armor if Taty will be so good, and I'll be in small air elemental form when we enter.
I'll IC post as well, but just putting it all here for ease of keeping track.
@Invandi - please take the slippers. I just got some nice armor and can use alter self for short-term water breathing. I'm sure other options will present themselves if needed!
Re: Buffs
OK, would folks prefer some targetted heroism castings or should we go with good hope?
The downside to good hope is burning both of Taty's level 3 spells at the start of combat. If we run out of haste and need to run she won't have the ability to cast it.
Buffs Taty will cast:
Haste as Zay suggests, right before we peak our heads into the room
Good Hope or Heroism. If Heroism, Taty will cast it on Houghton and Taty.
Alter Self, Mirror Image (self)
I personally vote Good Hope for the damage boost. I honestly think that if we can just focus fire and coordinate this time, we'll do a LOT better in this fight, and hopefully won't NEED to run.
I'm fine with good hope. Hopefully we can manage this fight a little better this time...
I'll stick with ancestor, because I can do a heroism and a bless if good hope runs out later. Plus spiritual weapon is good, and I can give Aurelian a use of ancestral blessing before we start the fight (+2 attack/damage)
False life roll:
So Houghton has 14 temp HP.
3 barkskins memorized - one for Houghton and two for others.
2 Shield of Faiths - one for Houghton and one for whomever.
Auran speakers are Houghton & Invandi, I believe. This is one of those times that I had to get myself all worked up for a big post and then realized that something else needed to be taken care of first.
I'll try to push us along Friday even if they don't respond by then. This shouldn't hold us up very long.
Separate topic:
I fell off the map for Pathfinder Society play for a while when the pandemic rolled around, but there are a few things I'd like to clean up before I call it quits. But I'm also reluctant to just go straight to the Recruitment board because I've had some pretty mutant parties that way at times.
I'll list the projects I'm interested in playing below. If anyone would like to participate as a player or GM, let me know!
#1 - Finale scenarios for the Dark Archive (10-08 What Prestige is Worth and 10-18 The Daughter's Due (high tier)) - I have a level 9 Magus for this
#2 - Season 7 All for Immortality series (low tier) - I have a level 12 Fighter and a level 12 Cleric I could bring for this.
#3 - preparing for the Rasping Rebirth (10-09) - my character that would be good to have for that is still level 10 so this project is mushier...involves some generic 10-11 tier play. If I found a really enjoyable All for Immortality party, I might be inclined to just continue with them instead.
If it helps to grease the wheels for any potential GMs, I don't particularly mind doing a GM swap. The last time I did that it was on a 1:1 basis and it felt like I was working way harder than I should have needed to though. A 2:1 or 3:1 swap basis would be more realistic.
I'm all about 2e at this point, other than my ongoing PBP games. (And I'm also in general very much at my limit for PBP.)
Invandi will gladly take the slippers and accept energy resistance :)
Taty, Invandi has a handful of water breathing potions (and sponges with water breathing applied), if you would like to use them.
Alright, Zay's spells are prepped.
I think that our plan is to do the minutes-per-level type buffs at the complex entrance, and beeline for the last place we knew the elementals to be. If we don't encounter them before we go into 'their' chamber maybe haste right before we stick our heads around the corner? Or haste on first round of combat, either makes sense. I defer to Taty there, it's her spell after all ;)
Buffs from me, going out to:
(Everyone) Communal resist energy electricity, 10 resist
(Aurelian) Cat's Grace, +4 to Dex
(Houghton) Bull's Strength, +4 to STR
(Tatienne) Bull's Strength, +4 to STR, Bear's Endurance, +4 to Con
(Invandi gets no Christmas bonuses from me :( )(Self) Heightened Awareness (when we roll initiative against the elementals I will dismiss it for the +4 bonus), Resinous Skin
I'll be taking a charge from the wand of Mage Armor if Taty will be so good, and I'll be in small air elemental form when we enter.
I'll IC post as well, but just putting it all here for ease of keeping track.
I don’t know if it matters, but iirc with communal resist energy we should have electricity resist 20 because of your caster level, right?
Invandi will gladly take the slippers and accept energy resistance :)
Taty, Invandi has a handful of water breathing potions (and sponges with water breathing applied), if you would like to use them.
Excellent! I'm glad they will go to you, Invandi :) And I'll take you up on the water breathing potions as needed!
I don’t know if it matters, but iirc with communal resist energy we should have electricity resist 20 because of your caster level, right?
Very belatedly, sorry, but yes, you're quite right. At this level it is 20! It hopefully won't matter, but good catch.
Is Haste actually up yet? I don't see it.
@Invandi - please take the slippers. I just got some nice armor and can use alter self for short-term water breathing. I'm sure other options will present themselves if needed!
Re: Buffs
OK, would folks prefer some targetted heroism castings or should we go with good hope?
The downside to good hope is burning both of Taty's level 3 spells at the start of combat. If we run out of haste and need to run she won't have the ability to cast it.
Buffs Taty will cast:
Haste as Zay suggests, right before we peak our heads into the room
Good Hope or Heroism. If Heroism, Taty will cast it on Houghton and Taty.
Alter Self, Mirror Image (self)
I just put it up because of this. You can remove an attack and associated bonus if you’d like.