| Yathlara |
dip: 1d20 + 14 ⇒ (17) + 14 = 31. Yath nods along, her mind attempting to math the math in ways this writer has no hoping of relaying.
| Liliyashanina |
Anevia really likes you now!
| Ellena Lovain |
Ellena blusheda little. ”Ah, yes. I got the Green Lady moniker in my mind and forgot her actual awful demon name. At least we finished her off, thank goodness. Maybe I just tried to push her name out of my memory,” the Paladin stammered.
| Nona Rastaban |
"What intel do you have on Greengates? Would you like us to investigate it? If there is a new sheriff in the demon camp, we might do well to hit them while they are trying to establish dominance."
| Liliyashanina |
Putting your heads together, you gain the following information:
--This area once housed a Desnan monastery
--The most current map the crusaders have shows this:
--long range overflight did see a mixed force of demons and mortals besieging it
You have in your possession highly important information regarding Tar-Baphon. You know that his phylactery is no longer in a demi plane accessible only from Rovagugs prison. You also know the override password for many of the traps that of the demiplane his phylactery is on. You do not believe that Nocticula lied to you concerning either of these things, and it is reasonable in within her interests to spread information concerning tar baphon to his foes.
Making this information available to lastwall would aid them, and perhaps result in more aid from lastwall to mendev. Of course, you cant exactly go ahead and say "yo, Nocticula told me these things".
I have run some research on this "Jaruunnicka" hag that is besieging green gates. Fairly powerful hag, follower of Shifkesh interestingly enough, not Mestama as is usual for hags. Fights smartly. Has hired a squad of Nurgal associated mercenaries from either a plane called earth, not the plane of earth. Belanas voice pauses
"Earth" is currently undergoing a brutal and cataclysmic war, with the intensity of the war occassionally resulting in rifts to the Abyss, which is how these guys ended up in Kuthon. They were tough enough to survive in the Abyss, and become mercenaries rather then prey, and are rumored to fight with gunpowder weaponry superior to what the musketeers of my forsaken have. Taking some of them alive with their weaponry could be a great boon.
These people are going to be highly dangerous. I made inquiries to Lady Nocticulas representative on the plane of earth, a fellow Succubus roughly in my weightclass in terms of power and experience. The carnage was sufficient to...
like, depression among Succubi is almost unheard of, yet she is depressed.
Whatever mortal who survives such things will be very very very hard.
Oh, Jaruunicka has a Hezrou consort, yes, consort... ughhh
aesthetics aside that should not be too much of an issue.
For a moment you black out.
You see a vision, an almost hellscape of trenchworks and gasclouds and ash.
Several people with firearms bearing unfamiliar green uniforms are coughing blood.
Friends a young, you think he is human, male says in a strange language, which you however understand in this vision.
The f#$*ing Fritzes have poisoned us, and we are all going to die because of it. Well, f&%+ them, lets repay them, and lets avenge ourself, so our friends and brothers wont have to. If we charge through this f!&!ing poison gas cload, we get the s!@@ty spikeheads in the flank. We will live a bit less long, and are more likely to die by blade or gunshot then by puking our lungs out, but I consider this a f*##ing win. Who is with me? He continues coughing heavily
As you see normal again, not a second has passed in the real world.
You hear a voice, that of Callistrias servitor.
these men are vengeance mislaid, perhaps you can right them
| Ellena Lovain |
”Iribeth, May I speak with you in private for just a moment, please,” Ellena asks for the paladin in charge. Assuming she assents, Ellena begins revealing some of the knowledge she had picked up from the demons.
GM
| Nona Rastaban |
"Is Kuthon a place or is that something associated with Zon-Kuthon?"
"Any known weaknesses we can exploit regarding either the hag or her mercenaries?"
"I seem to remember that Sifkesh tries to make those who have committed apostacy to commit suicide rather than to seek redemption. Might this be relevant to this Arueshalae whom we are seeking to redeem?"
| Liliyashanina |
Negative, Kuthon, also known as Kuthan, the waterless blights, the crimsons suns judgement jada jada is Nurgals Abyssal realm.
Zon-Kuthon dwells in Xovaikain. I have been to that overengineered place as an envoy on account of my unusually sunny disposition which should make me more resistant to its... enui. Zon-Kuthons place sucked balls, although not as bad as being imprisoned in Cania.
I as a Gm mispelled it, but its not something Belana would admit to
Nurgal is apparently super pissed that descendents of Aroden exists in Golarion, and seeks to change this, very violently. We are trying to stir up Areshkagal against that. Sphinxes are f@@&ing annoying to diplomatize with by the way.
On a more positive note, Mazzmezz, demonlord of spiders and bindings is fairly seriously raiding Deskaris lands at the border between her realm of Khavak-Vog and the rasping rifts. We transmitted some good intelligence, and they managed to bypass Deskaris border and have a bunch of Bebeliths run rampant. It wasnt free, poor Cydric now has to date a Half-Fiend-Jorogumo. Thrice. Likely worth the casulties though, and I can teleport him to my side if he is in too much trouble.
Mazmezz has been fairly receptive to Nocticulan efforts to enlist her as a spoiler against Deskari, her agents may approach you to basically gain some extra benefits this way. But enough abyssal politics for now.
She is taken aback
That is not... knowledge any random demon would know... Oh, I get it. You got information from a highly unreliable source, you dont want to be known to be in contact with, but the information is so good you cant afford to sit on it? And you dont want to lie directly?
Irabeth pauses
Welcome to my and Nevis world. If I were to guess, the source of the information are the Forsaken, and they offered them as payment for a truce? Or a prisoner release? I am actually fine with this. There have been rumors that Tar-Baphon and Nocticula are hostile to each other, so it makes sense that her agents would offer truthfull information about how to kill him.
Just watch your back with them. They are far friendlier to those they want then to those they have.
| Ellena Lovain |
GM
| Yathlara |
Yath looks to the others talking or thinking and shrugs. She had spotted a desk, that she could slide her bottom onto, as well as a slim book of imported poetry left discarded to pass the time.
So she slips away.
For a few moments.
| Nona Rastaban |
Nona does not share her thoughts. She's not keen to reveal a demon is giving her telepathic messages. The intel Belana is giving her does not seem to give anything that can be turned into an advantage, so far.
"So, what's the plan? Are we heading to Greengates?"
| Sorak, the Singer |
"Hopefully!" Sorak almost jumps. He just entered Drezen but was already missing the outside. So... cramped. Oh sweet Lady, he might be deeply messed up to prefer the abyssal landscape of the Worldwound than some old citadel.
| Liliyashanina |
If everyone is ready then:
1: Do any of you plan to make any additional reconnaissance/scrying/etc operations?
2: Do you wish to prep any particular spells given what you know of expected opposition?
3: How do you plan to get there? Foot, Caravan, teleport, overland flight?
| Yathlara |
Yath closes her new book. She considers slipping it into her pocket for future finishing, but the book might exist right here to inspire some wandering soldier or broken victim. If she took it, destiny would be diverted, just so she could satisfy her curiosity.
That wouldn't be right. So she set the book back where she found it, even rotated it just so to be back in its original alignment, then patted it "good luck" the wizard tells the poetry.
She returns to the other's side "Is there an unspoiled body of water I can use? Not for cleaning, for scrying." She pauses and thinks "We'll also need to find someone that knows someone really well that is currently defending the place." she looks hopefully at the Tirabades.
diplimacy to gather information if no one knows anyone: 1d20 + 14 ⇒ (14) + 14 = 28
hours taken: 1d4 ⇒ 2
sounds like Nona needs to wait until tomorrow in game to reorganize her spells, so Yath would spend her arcane bond on scrying, then get that back tomorrow.
| Nona Rastaban |
Nona can cast scrying as well, but she would rather not prepare that on the same day we start traveling, unless we want it available for scrying once we arrive and want to see inside. She only has two spells that can aid in quick transport, but they are only good one PC each. Does anyone else have plans to use magic to speed our travel? She can cast Flame Steed, which provides speed 100 and has other benefits. A little slower is Overland Flight.
Nona can prepare healing spells. What other healing resources do we have? I'm particularly thinking of methods that can be applied in melee and which can provide substantial healing. It will make a difference in Nona's spell selection if the healing duties are falling mainly on her or if there are others who can contribute.
@Yath: Nona has a scrying mirror.
Would Nona be able to obtain an Oil of Bless Weapon, or some other item that would allow a weapon to bypass DR/Good? I assume we'll be fighting demons and they mostly have DR/Good. It is a Paladin spell, so I expect there are some at Drezen who can craft such a thing.
| Yathlara |
Yath's only prolonged travel spells in her book are mount and teleport. She does have 3 casts of level 5 spells, so if we REALLY needed she could teleport most of us, teleport back, and then teleport the rest, but that would use all her most powerful spells, so I'd rather not.
| Nona Rastaban |
Nona's prepared spells have been selected. She has Flame Steed, which can give her fast travel, but it also has advantages even if we are not using its high speed to arrive sooner. She also prepared Nature's Paths which can help with overland travel. If it is going to take us more than a day to arrive, she may adjust her spells a bit, but otherwise she is good to go.
| Ellena Lovain |
Nona, Ellena has a few uses of LoH to hopefully keep herself up during melee. That’s about all she has other than turning them in channels. No help with quick travel or spying, unfortunately.
| Nona Rastaban |
"So, it looks like we're going overland, unless Irabeth has some way to speed us along. Let's figure out how long a trip it will be and the best way to get there."
In case Nona knows something from her knowledge of Sarkoris/Worldwound geography.
Knowledge (Geography): 1d20 + 20 ⇒ (8) + 20 = 28
| Sorak, the Singer |
She returns to the other's side "Is there an unspoiled body of water I can use? Not for cleaning, for scrying." She pauses and thinks "We'll also need to find someone that knows someone really well that is currently defending the place." she looks hopefully at the Tirabades.
"Yourr sing do not vorrk vith norrmal vaterr? You can not just put vaterr in bow?" He asks, wondering why the woman was specific about not wanting the water for cleaning. He discreetly sniffs, wondering if she is against getting baths. Baths were great in his personal opinion.
"I have hearrd good amount about zis hag Jaarruunicka. Vould zat help you?"
| Liliyashanina |
Well, place yourself on the map after the party travelled overland
There are 2 possible entrances you can see, south and north east.
| Nona Rastaban |
I put Nona and Zia near the NE entrance, although that was just a random choice. If we can make some perception checks, maybe we can get some clues about the two entrances, if it matters.
| Sorak, the Singer |
With the Greengates coming into view, Sorak gestures for the others to stop. "Rright, so I vill take a look arround ze place."
A couple steps ahead and he turns to Ellena. "Oh, almost forrgot! You arre blessed vif ze poverr to see ozerrs aurras of evil, uhn? I have learrned trrick vhile in ze Abyss zat vill mask mine as if I vas demons myself. But I am still me, rright?" With this warning, Sorak crouches and concentrates, taking a deep breath... slowly, his aura darkens, seething with menace.
Sorak now detects as Chaotic and Evil, which fools all forms of divination magic.
And then he is gone, walking as fast and as quietly as possible, scouting the terrain for the others.
Stealth, Favored Terrain: 1d20 + 19 + 8 ⇒ (12) + 19 + 8 = 39
Perception, Favored Terrain: 1d20 + 15 + 8 ⇒ (20) + 15 + 8 = 43 Against denizens of the Abyss, Sorak gets another +8.
| Liliyashanina |
@Sorok, beyond morality? Or some other abilitiy?
Lady Rastaban? I do not wish to intrude, but someone within your immidiate vicinity is employing powerful alignment masking abilities, which they were not utilizing seconds ago. You have the ability to teleport twice per day using my gift to you, should you face a Lilitu.
There seems to be genuine concern in her vocie
According to scouts, the Lilitu Minagho is currently accounted for elsewhere, so it is unlikely to be her, but she is a highly intelligent operative and may pretend to be elsewhere.
Lilitu are powerful and rare shapeshifter demons, known for their innate ability to overcome alignment detecting magic via several different means. It is not an unreasonable assumption to make by Belana.
Minagho famously took the city of Raliscrad, which had been highly effective in resisting the Deskarite invasion, by guile, treachery and no small amount of risk to herself. Raliscrad still has a sizeable population of Kellid collaborators, as Minagho was quick to position herself as the less evil compared to Deskaris servants, she still rules this city to this day.
While the likes of the Stormlord or Diurez Broodlord are mightier then her, she is genuinely powerful, clever and resourcefull.
You may begin to wonder how much Belana can detect from you using the gift, and to what extent this could perhaps also be inverted.
You see a 7 Babaus dead on the ground, perforated by well fired arrows. As their bodies are still there, these seem to have been called rather them summoned. You also see several puddles of good, with arrows sticking out of them as well. Perhaps these were Babau who have been summoned?
You expert senses make clear that these demons were short from a circular tower further to the south. On one arrow you can see the symbol of a butterfly, well crafted, but not quite in line with how Desnas symbol should be drawn normally. From the position of the Babau, you think they came from the north west. It is interesting that they apparently walked in rather the teleporting. Some type of Forbiddance perhaps? Whoever is using Babaus as disposable chaff troops is well resources, and whoever killed at least 7 of them is highly capable.
| Sorak, the Singer |
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@Sorok, beyond morality? Or some other abilitiy?
It is from the Horizon Walker PrC, the Terrain Mastery (Abyss): If the horizon walker selects a plane with an alignment trait, he can choose to detect as that alignment (fooling all forms of magic divination) as an immediate action; this benefit lasts until he dismisses it (a free action).
"Someone is shooting frrom ze souf toverr and killing krovavyy, plenty of zem. Krovavyy is ourr vorrd forr babau. Blood demons." He informs the others and even showing an arrow with an unusual symbol of Desna. "And ze krovavyy arre valking, not poofing. Forr surre zerre is rreason forr zat."
"Zis aligns vif Irrabef's rrumourr of someone fighting demons herre."
| Liliyashanina |
But you do not actually have this alignment, so for example unholy blight would still treat you as good aligned yes? And an evil Antipaladin could use smite good, but may smite someone else because you dont ping as evil for him?
| Yathlara |
Yath spent the trip chatting with whoever wanted to and was contently silent when none did. It is amazing how okay you are with most things after an indeterminate time being tortured by demons.
At the Greengates, she looks over the area, studying the defenses and building itself.
knowledge engineering: 1d20 + 22 ⇒ (7) + 22 = 29
perception for anything else: 1d20 + 16 + 2 ⇒ (20) + 16 + 2 = 38
| Sorak, the Singer |
But you do not actually have this alignment, so for example unholy blight would still treat you as good aligned yes? And an evil Antipaladin could use smite good, but may smite someone else because you dont ping as evil for him?
Yes, it just reads as CE. For all purposes, Sorak still has his own alignment. This just fools detect alignment and the like.
| Liliyashanina |
Yathlara detects interesting impacts on the tower which Sorak identified as the position of anti demon resistance.
You even spot what seems to be... distantly related to the firearms the forsaken use, but... different?
Still, the implication is that whoever is assaulting the tower has some access to firearms, firearms different from the ones used by the Forsaken.
Roll me a stealth check if you want to retrieve that yourself, or alternatively ask Sorak.
| Nona Rastaban |
Nona will gladly chat with Yath (or anyone else) as they travel.
Knowledge (History): 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (14) + 7 = 21
Knowledge (Planes): 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (4) + 13 = 17
Then she adds, "Someone's using firearms to croak babaus. Sounds like that group you were telling me about. Seems not to be the Foresaken's guns."
"I have heard rumors that Jaruunicka, the hag, is here with a group of demonic mercenaries who use gunpowder weapons. They are reputed to be dangerous. If we can capture one or more, they would likely capable of providing good intel on activities in demon-land."
"I can cast Clairvoyance and have a look-see into the place from above. I also have a Spectral Scout I can send in to look around, but it has to come back and report to me."
Nona also passes around a wineskin, saying "Have a sip of this. It'll sharpen your mind."
Tears to Wine: Creatures that drink the mead or wine created by this spell become sharp-witted and clear-minded, gaining a +5 enhancement bonus on all Intelligence- and Wisdom-based skill checks.
"One other thing. I'm prepared to turn myself into a really big creature when we get into fighting, if there's room. If I do, you'll have a Warcat of Rull fighting for you." Spell: Beast Shape III
| Nona Rastaban |
| Liliyashanina |
The Babaus died to arrows not to gunfire, as far as you can tell, but there are shell impacts on the tower the arrows likely came from. You do not see any firearms in the Babaus hands, implying that the gunpower users are allied with the Babaus.
We have reports indicating that Nurgal, demonlord of massive violence and mercenaries, has allowed Baphomet and Deskari to hire his forces at very cheap rates. We also know that he has aquired firearm wielding forces from a different material plane. A conflict there was... sufficiently brutal and violent to open temporary gates to his abyssal realm, although these rifts were one-way from that plane to the Abyss, much unlike the worldwound which can be crossed into both directions.
Belana pauses
Nurgal treats all who enter his domain as slaves, status as mercenaries must be earned by fire and blood and steel. If these are Nurgalite auxillaries, they have fought in a conflict sufficiently brutal to cause the formation of rifts to the Abyss, and then kept fighting in the Abyss,inspite of being cut off from resupply and in a completely alien enviroment, until Nurgal offered them terms. This is no small feat. I would pay handsomely for any prisoner taken, or any of their firearms recovered. By other reports these gunfire using Nurgal troops have completely and utterly wrecked the forces of Koschtschie, demonlord of frostgiants, hating hags, ice, misogynie and getting pranked by Baba Yaga, in a battle in the Abyss. This could imply a degree of cold resistance and/or being excellent against targets suspectible to ranged touch attacks.
Best of luck!
The bigger bold is a possible sidequest and/or moral dilemma, she does not shout in your head. I do like making use of her to plot dump things that would be very hard for your characters to know in character.
The fortress monastery was once Desnan and contains an artifact called the bell of mercy. You are reasonably certain that it could be configured to lock down teleportation. Naturally, retrieving and fully fixing it could be a sizeable boon to the crusade.
It may also emitt a strong forbiddance aura, keyed to pass those who are in alignment with Desna.
| Nona Rastaban |
Nona cast Legend Lore before leaving Drezen. Results in the spoiler above.
| Ellena Lovain |
Ellena casts an arched eye at Sorak becoming chaotic evil somehow. Even though he explained himself, she kept a watchful eye as he ducked out and scouted before returning. The paladin takes a sip of the proffered magical drink, knowing she’d need all her senses about her as the group prepared for the mission.
”So what is our plan of action here?”
| Yathlara |
Yath accepts the drink, swishing the sweet wine in her mouth with relish, enjoying the taste almost as much as the effect "I could teleport all save one to the top of that tower that Sorak said had a shooter in it. If someone else could fly?"
Yath has spells to cast but will wait until they decide to move
| Nona Rastaban |
"I can fly, but first let me use Clairvoyance to see what else might be active inside. Get comfortable. This takes a bit of time to cast."
Nona sits cross-legged on the ground with Zia by her side. She takes out a small glass eye from her spell component pouch and holds it in one hand and then repeats a phrase as she concentrates and sometimes gestures. After ten minutes, she exhales audibly and says, "I'm active now."
Is the "magical sensor" described in the spell visible or detectable? The spell description doesn't say. The sensor is marked with a red dot on the map. It is just above the level of the highest tower.
| Liliyashanina |
Clairvoiyance:
On top of the tower, there is the towers roof, you see at the most a shooting slot, but it is small and hard to peek through. You do however see more to your east.
You see a hag, a large toadlike demon and several humans, their faces wrapped in cotton, wielding firearms.
The humans have glowing collars with the Abyssal word slave on them.
Isnt it interesting that this Arueshalee didnt shoot any of you? But killed my prized Babaus? On to the attack you will go once more! Lets make it kill or be killed for her ahahahha, kill and fall or die and be captured, and then fall anyway!
One of them tries to aim his firearm on the hag, and then instantly collapses into massive pain.
Oh, someone is watching! The hag looks straight at your sensor, as she seemingly casts dispell magic
dispell magic: 1d20 + 16 ⇒ (14) + 16 = 30 which dispells the sensor
| Sorak, the Singer |
"Zis not zat demon rrum, uh?" He says, drinking from the wineskin as he waits for Nona's thing.
| Nona Rastaban |
I'm a confused as to who is where doing what to whom. Are the hag, mercenaries, and the toad on top of or inside near the top of the tower? When you say "One of them tries to aim his firearm on the hag" who is this talking about and where is this one? It sounds like they are attacking Arueshalee. Or are the mercenaries with Arueshalee shooting at the hag?
Also it appears there may be two towers to the north and south of the east end. Which tower is referred to in the first sentence. Since both towers are at the east end, I'm not sure what it means there more to the east. Where is the hag and what I assume are her minions?
Are the areas still covered by spoilers on the map areas with roofs or did Nona not have time to look in those areas before the sensor was dispelled?
| Liliyashanina |
Whoever is shooting demons is in the tower. The *mercenaries* who may also be slaves are to your west, I have uncovered the area, and seem to be preparing for another attack. From the intercepted conversation, whoever is shooting demons tries to not kill the mercenaries, but they are certainly taking orders from the demons.
| Yathlara |
Seeing that the battle is about to be joined again, Yath taps into her special pool of mythic might and casts a spell on herself while grasping one of the rods on her belt.
mythic heroism, extended, 200 minutes, +4 to almost everything
| Nona Rastaban |
Nona casts a spell, also drawing on her mythic resources. Sparkly dust issues forth from a pouch on her belt and settles on her skin, giving it a brief sheen as if covered in diamond dust (which it is).
Uses Inspired Spell and 1 use of mythic power to cast Stoneskin, at Caster Level 12, which will last for 2 hours or until it has prevented a total of 120 points of damage, giving her DR 10/Adamantine.
If possible, I'd like to have cast Owl's Wisdom on herself and Celestial Companion on Zia, just prior to the clairvoyance.
| Ellena Lovain |
The Paladin casts Angelic Aspect and activates her diving bond with a radiance, steeling herself for the upcoming demonic clash! ”Lets go get’em,” she whispers to the others. !
| Sorak, the Singer |
Fancy preparations all around him. Sorak frees one kukri from its sheath, then frees the other. And that is it, he is ready. Mostly, at least, for he also checks his bow and arrows just in case.
| Liliyashanina |
Pre init:
Bwahahahah! Charge again my dead men and place the satchel charges! I shall cover you!
The hag casts a spell and a sickly green cloud envelops the 6 mortal looking soldiers, the cloud drifts towards the tower with marching being visible inside in.
You can of course see them, well, some of them because you can still innately detect good, can you not Arueshallee? You can either shoot them, or you let them destroy your redoubt, your choice! And not even you are a good enough shot to sunder their charges at range, which would blow them up anyway! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
The hag announces
Green is the spell, its a moving cloud of gass, spellcraft or kn arcana to ID.
init Sorak: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (8) + 8 = 16
init Elena: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (16) + 6 = 22
init Nona: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (1) + 5 = 6
init Yath: 1d20 + 11 ⇒ (19) + 11 = 30
init earthrealmers: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (13) + 6 = 19
init Hezrou advanced: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (15) + 6 = 21
init Jaruunicka: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (4) + 7 = 11
mystery person: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (5) + 9 = 14
Ordering:
Yath
Elena
Hezrou
Earthrealmery
Sorak
Mystery person
Jaruunicka
Nona
Bolded are up!
| Yathlara |
Yath decides being super protected is not nearly important having someone who rushes into the middle of battle for you. So she casts Stoneskin on her paladin companion, explaining "While the skin grays, the insides have a tendency to remain insides, instead of outsides." she flashes an odd grin at Ellena. "The way of things preserved by mundane coloration."
stoneskin, DR 10/adamantine, 100 points max, 100 minutes duration
I'll pause her movement until Ellena goes, cause Yath is intelligent enough not to have the squishy wizard lead the charge, but if Ellena moves closer so will Yath, staying BEHIND the armored one.
| Ellena Lovain |
The paladin grins at the wizard for the support spell, and flaps her angelic wings in the breeze. ”Im going for the hag,” the paladin announces as she declares her smite evil on the hag and flies right for it.
I can’t make out much on the map, but if you’d be kind enough to send me right towards the hag, that would be great, GM!
Current buffs: Stoneskin, Angelic Aspect, Divine Bond weapon, and Smite Evil on the hag.
| Liliyashanina |
There is a big f~#+ing noxious smoke cloud.
The hag is behind that, and not currently visible.
| Liliyashanina |
There is a big f&&@ing noxious smoke cloud.
The hag is behind that, and not currently visible.
| Ellena Lovain |
Ah, can Ellena try to fly around that big nasty cloud then?