Rules Clarification For Oathbound Paladin Needed

[HWalsh]

Okay, so I know this may have been asked before, but I can't find any kind of official answer.

Here is the issue:

On first glance, reading Oathbound Paladins, it appears that Oathbound Paladins only get spells added to their available spell list. Meaning that they get something added to their list of things to place in their normal spell slots.

However...

There are lines that don't make sense in the official description:

Here is is for ease of reference:

Quote:

A paladin’s oath influences what magic she can perform. An oathbound paladin adds one spell to the paladin spell list at each paladin spell level she can cast (including spell levels for which she would only gain spells per day if her Charisma were high enough to grant bonus spells of that level). Her oath determines what spell is added to the spell list. If the paladin has multiple oaths, the spells from each oath are added to her spell list.

If an oathbound paladin has more than one oath, she may prepare any one of her oath’s spells in that slot (similar to a cleric choosing one of her two domain spells to prepare in a domain spell slot).

First, we have this line:

A paladin’s oath influences what magic she can perform. An oathbound paladin adds one spell to the paladin spell list at each paladin spell level she can cast

This indicates that it is just added to the list, and isn't treated like an "oathbound spell slot" or basically kind of like a "domain spell slot" anything like that.

Okay I am down with that... This gives the Paladin some access to extra spells... And the oaths do some special stuff anyway.

If an oathbound paladin has more than one oath, she may prepare any one of her oath’s spells in that slot (similar to a cleric choosing one of her two domain spells to prepare in a domain spell slot).

Wait... What?

What slot? What slot are they talking about? Does this mean there [u]is[/u] a spell slot?

Okay... Lets assume that this is just a typo? Maybe a holdover from another version of the game? Wait...

I was going to take "Oath Against Undeath" but...

Huh... This is weird...

"Sanctify Corpse" is added to my spell list at level 1 cool... Wait a minute... I already have that in my list...

"Resist Energy" from Oath against Fiends is also on my level 2 list... Weird but at least I get it at level 1...

So... Okay... Is this just added to the list? Is there an extra slot gained (like a domain slot)? We really need a definitive answer to this.

[Talib Aguiye Ironsi]

You get what the ability gives you: spells added to your list.

The way you've parsed it may make it seem otherwise, but only because you've taken that sentence away from the others it was referencing.

You don't gain any additional spell slots. If you're interested, take a look at the Sacred Servant archetype (they gain Domain spell slots like a Cleric).

[HWalsh]

Talib Aguiye Ironsi wrote:

You get what the ability gives you: spells added to your list.

The way you've parsed it may make it seem otherwise, but only because you've taken that sentence away from the others it was referencing.

You don't gain any additional spell slots. If you're interested, take a look at the Sacred Servant archetype (they gain Domain spell slots like a Cleric).

Again, how does that explain giving them spells they already have then?

[Talib Aguiye Ironsi]

It doesn't.

This isn't the first time that an archetype provided a redundant feature.

Paizo utilizes a lot of authors. Not all of them are 100% thorough in their research when creating content. Even then, sometimes the content they create gets edited for balance (by another fleet of people that might not do a whole lot of research).

It's also possible this archetype initially offered bonus slots, and they were edited to be only spell list.

Whatever the reason, all the archetype gives now is what it states.

[HWalsh]

Talib Aguiye Ironsi wrote:

It doesn't.

This isn't the first time that an archetype provided a redundant feature.

Paizo utilizes a lot of authors. Not all of them are 100% thorough in their research when creating content. Even then, sometimes the content they create gets edited for balance (by another fleet of people that might not do a whole lot of research).

It's also possible this archetype initially offered bonus slots, and they were edited to be only spell list.

Whatever the reason, all the archetype gives now is what it states.

And if we had an official response it would clear up the ambiguity due to the poor wording.

This is exactly why an official response is requested.

[CampinCarl9127]

HWalsh wrote:

And if we had an official response it would clear up the ambiguity due to the poor wording.

This is exactly why an official response is requested.

Don't hold your breath. You have to find a very controversial ruling and get a massive amount of attention for it to get any sort of official response. The best you can hope for is what you just got; intelligent and experienced players giving you their best shot at it.

[Helcack]

It obviously gives you oath slots, it just doesn't explicitly point it out. I have always run it that way at least, and I'm 100% sure it's RAI. I didn't realize there was any dispute until I re-read it and saw how terribly it is worded.

[Chess Pwn]

We got a FAQ for saying that jumping 10 feet takes 10 feet of jumping with acrobatics. We've made a thread go from 0 to 105 FAQ requests in a few days on just how much masterpieces are bardic performance when it says it's like bardic performance. We don't have a FAQ for many things that cause really big actual problems, like what is an alternate class to it's base class, Mounted Combat, and barding prices. So there's nothing stopping this from getting answered and attention.

[Talib Aguiye Ironsi]

You're most likely not going to be getting an "official response". There are bigger questions lined up in the FAQ queue, and this archetype functions just fine as is (unlike many others that simply don't). I don't think the text you're quoting is ambiguous. When read in its entirety, it makes sense.

The best practice for now would be to run it as it's written until (if) someone ever mentions otherwise. Luckily this has no impact on character concepts. At the very most, you're just getting the same amount of spells as any other Paladin, plus all the cool other abilities.

In other words, you're losing nothing by not having this answered.

[Weirdo]

Talib Aguiye Ironsi wrote:

I don't think the text you're quoting is ambiguous. When read in its entirety, it makes sense.

It's not ambiguous, but it doesn't make sense either.

It doesn't say you get an extra slot, so you don't get one. OK. Not ambiguous.

However, without an oath slot the sentence "If an oathbound paladin has more than one oath, she may prepare any one of her oath’s spells in that slot" is syntactic gibberish because there is no reference for "that slot" - no particular slot to which this sentence could refer. This makes no sense.

Additionally, it makes no sense to add a spell to your list if that spell is already on your list (as the case with Sanctify Undead).

Talib Aguiye Ironsi wrote:

It's also possible this archetype initially offered bonus slots, and they were edited to be only spell list.

I'm fairly certain this is the case. If it were just careless authors adding spells that were already on the list, the meaningless sentence would not exist.

For a home game, I would recommend either adding an Oath Slot, or adjusting the Oath spells such that they don't grant spells already on the paladin's list. The latter is probably more in line with Paizo's final intent (that you not get extra spell slots but that you do get extra spells on your list).

[HWalsh]

Talib Aguiye Ironsi wrote:

You're most likely not going to be getting an "official response". There are bigger questions lined up in the FAQ queue, and this archetype functions just fine as is (unlike many others that simply don't). I don't think the text you're quoting is ambiguous. When read in its entirety, it makes sense.

The best practice for now would be to run it as it's written until (if) someone ever mentions otherwise. Luckily this has no impact on character concepts. At the very most, you're just getting the same amount of spells as any other Paladin, plus all the cool other abilities.

In other words, you're losing nothing by not having this answered.

Unless you take the Oath against Undead or Oath against Fiends - In that case you are losing out on gaining a spell.

[Talib Aguiye Ironsi]

"Losing out on gaining" equates to "losing nothing".

[HWalsh]

I disagree. If you are supposed to get something and don't then you lose what you are supposed to get.

[Berselius]

Wait, an Oathbound Paladin gets bonus spell slots? I always thought it only added spells from the spell lists of other classes the paladin spell list.

[HWalsh]

Berselius wrote:

Wait, an Oathbound Paladin gets bonus spell slots? I always thought it only added spells from the spell lists of other classes the paladin spell list.

We aren't sure. That is the problem.

It indicates that we do, and indicates that we don't, very weird.

[Berselius]

Quote:

We aren't sure. That is the problem.

It indicates that we do, and indicates that we don't, very weird.

Yeah, quite the glaring contradiction right there.

[HWalsh]

Until we get an official response, for my game at least, Paladins will get an additional Spell Slot if they take any Oaths that can only be filled by one of the Oath spells for that level.

Pallies get such crap spells per day anyway that it shouldn't matter.

[Bard-Sader]

I rule that RAI they get extra spell slots

[leo1925]

I agree that it needs clarification but as others have said don't hold your breath, ultimate magic and ultimate combat have a lot of issues and frankly this is one of the least concerning.

For what it's worth i think that oathbound paladins get a "domain" slot in which they can prepare the oath spells.

[Lemoncherry Candyapple]

For the record, when I GM I allow for an "Oath" slot where you can only prepare your "Oath" spells.