| Douglas Muir 406 |
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Gate is a 9th level arcane spell that goes all the way back to First Edition. Oddly, nobody seems to have done a writeup on it for PF yet, so I'm going to give it a shot.
Using Gate as transport. Gate has has two distinct functions. One is to open a gate to another plane. This one is pretty straightforward -- it's a gate that you and your party (and a bunch of other people, if you like) can walk through. It can go to any other plane that you're aware of, including demiplanes; a deity or other planar ruler can choose to block you, but otherwise it's auto-success. You arrive exactly where you like, with none of the annoying imprecision of Plane Shift. No holding hands, either -- you just walk through.
Drawbacks? Well, you can't use it to move between points on the same plane, oddly enough -- it's interplanar only. This is a slightly silly restriction, because if you cast Gate twice, you can step across a continent via the Plane of Air, some convenient demiplane, or wherever. And, as noted, a deity or other planar ruler will instantly be aware of your attempt to open a Gate to their plane, and can choose to block you. So, no, you can't Gate into Asmodeus' treasure chamber. (Or more likely, you can, and there's something unspeakably horrible waiting for you. But you can't unless he lets you.)
While a Gate can put you in a demiplane, it's unclear whether you can Gate into an extradimensional space such as exists inside a Portable Hole, Handy Haversack, or Rope Trick. I'd say no, myself, but it seems a judgment call. It's also unclear whether the 6th level divine spell Forbiddance would stop a Gate. It says it stops "all planar travel", but then it lists the spells that are included and Gate isn't on the list. I think a 9th level spell would trump a 6th level spell, myself. By way of comparison, the 8th level spell Dimensional Lock does specifically say that it will stop a Gate.
Note that while Gate puts you down exactly where you want to go -- half a mile outside of the walls of Demogorgon's fortress, 50 feet in front of the north gate of the City of Brass, whatever -- it tells you nothing about what might be waiting for you there. Also, while you hold the Gate open, it's two-way connection: things can come through from the other side. Your DM would be perfectly justified in, at a minimum, rolling a wandering monster check. And if you have enemies with access to good divination magic, an ambush is not out out of the question.
Otherwise, this form of the spell is pretty straightforward: a combination between Plane Shift and Teleport, the cool kids way to backpack around the multiverse.
Using Gate to call and control powerful outsiders. allows you to call any outsider you can think of, with no restrictions as to alignment and no opposed Cha checks. It does not allow a saving throw or spell resistance: you call the creature, it comes. Casting Gate is a standard action that costs you 10,000 gp on the spot. That's just for casting it, before you start bargaining -- so you can't even cast this spell if you don't have 10,000 gp worth of "rare incense and offerings" on hand. When you cast, you can call either a kind of creature ("a pit fiend") or a known individual ("Lord Humungus"). Either way, the spell automatically succeeds -- no save, no SR -- and the creature immediately appears. That's the good news.
There's actually a bit more good news. For creatures whose HD is equal to or less than your caster level, you automatically "control" it. The spell is blurry as to what "control" means here, but I'd say that it's probably comparable to the control exercised by Planar Binding after you've won a Cha check. So the creature does your bidding within reason, as long as you're not ordering it on a suicide mission or to do something that grossly violates its alignment. (The spell is unclear on this point, though, so check with your DM.)
Now the bad news. First, you can't ever get deities or "unique beings". Second, even if you control the creature, you have to pay it for its service. The spell text says that the Planar Ally spells are a guideline here, which suggests that we're talking 500 to 1,000 gp / hit die. That would be 30,000 gp (20,000 plus the 10,000 ante for casting the spell) to gain the services of a 20 HD pit fiend for a while, which doesn't actually sound unreasonable. It's unclear whether feats or other abilities that would affect the cost of Planar Binding would affect this payment.
The spell text says that "Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward... Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least." Again, the details are vague, but I would rule that you would instantly be subjected to the equivalent of a Gate yourself: teleported to the creature's home plane, with no save. What happens after that is up to the DM but, honestly, if you're dumb enough to summon a pit fiend and then try to stiff him, I think you deserve whatever you get.
What else... oh, if you Gate in a creature that has more HD than your level? It is uncontrolled. "An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time."
Now, this does not mean that Gating such powerful creatures is always always a bad idea. I can imagine circumstances where this might perhaps work out okay. One might be, you're giving it the chance to do something that is absolutely in line with the creature's goals and ethics, and you're also sweetening the deal with a huge pile of cash and goodies. Another might be, you're turning it loose to do something it would want to do anyway -- i.e., you're calling up a demon or a qlippoth and releasing it on the world to do as much damage as possible. But both of those sound pretty risky; at a minimum, you're giving your DM a huge opportunity to get creative. I'd stick to creatures of your HD or less, myself.
An interesting question is whether, if an uncontrolled creature chooses to assist you, you must then pay it or suffer the consequences. The spell text is not really clear on this point. My inclination would be to say yes -- if the creature helps you in some way, you're on the hook and must pay. Otherwise you end up with lots of legalistic wrangling: "Yes, we were cornered by demons, and yes I gated in a solar angel to save us, but angels kill demons! That's their nature, right? So really I was doing it a favor by giving it an opportunity!"
So, to summarize:
Advantages of using Gate to conjure things: You can get whatever you like, up to your level in HD. It's a standard action. No saves, Cha checks or SR. Creatures with HD equal to or less than your level are automatically called and controlled.
Disadvantages of Gate: It's expensive. Creatures with more HD than your level can be called but are not controlled.
Note that if you have the Augment Calling feat, you can get 20 HD creatures via Planar Ally or Planar Binding without using Gate. That's not always better -- Gate can be cast on the fly, and is far more flexible than Planar Ally. But it does save you that 10,000 gp casting cost.
This is a mini-Guide, so I'm not going to list the creatures you might want to call. There are a lot of them, and while they're all crazy powerful their specific abilities vary greatly. This is a spell that rewards doing your homework.
One last thought: the sorts of creatures you can get with Gate -- Pit Fiends and Solars and whatnot -- are major powers in their own right. They may have minions -- in some cases entire armies -- at their beck and call. Your DM would be perfectly within his rights to give these creatures unexpected resources, including direct connections to deities, artifacts or other hugely powerful magical items, and/or the ability to strike at you even on your home plane. Every campaign is different, but I'd say that Gating in such powerful creatures should never become routine or casual; even at very high levels, this should be a major, game-changing event. Discuss with your DM and see what he thinks.
Thoughts and comments welcome!
Doug M.
| Cevah |
Drawbacks? Well, you can't use it to move between points on the same plane, oddly enough -- it's interplanar only. This is a slightly silly restriction, because if you cast Gate twice, you can step across a continent via the Plane of Air, some convenient demiplane, or wherever.
Why bother with two castings? Just cast Rope Trick. 2nd level spell that gets you out of the current plane. Now cast Gate. Now you can have a line of people climb into the Rope Trick, and your Gate lets them pop out elsewhere. How many people can you get to pass through in 1r/l?
/cevah
| Douglas Muir 406 |
Why bother with two castings? Just cast Rope Trick.
...as noted above, it's unclear under RAW whether Gate gives you access to extradimensional spaces, because those aren't "planes" as such.
That said, by the time you can cast Gate you should have access to the Create Demiplane spell. So you can just create a little demiplane that's accessed from your gazebo or something, and go in and out through that.
Doug M.
| Douglas Muir 406 |
Hi! You forgot to mention things that raise your caster level, like a prayer bead. Use that and you can control a solar NP.
Ha, good point. Well... it's unclear to me whether those would work with Gate. The spell does say "caster level", so I guess probably yes: anything that boosts your ECL would work.
Whoa, that could make a difference.
Doug M.
| UnArcaneElection |
Cevah wrote:
Why bother with two castings? Just cast Rope Trick.
...as noted above, it's unclear under RAW whether Gate gives you access to extradimensional spaces, because those aren't "planes" as such.
That said, by the time you can cast Gate you should have access to the Create Demiplane spell. So you can just create a little demiplane that's accessed from your gazebo or something, and go in and out through that.
Doug M.
This is, of course, assuming that you have taken appropriate precautions to avoid being eaten by your own gazebo . . . .
| Kayerloth |
I've been thinking about Forbiddance vs Gate and at the moment probably go with the following. The Gate would in fact form (the creation subschool effect) but travel via the Gate would be blocked as long as the Forbiddance remained. One of the advantages to this would be the potential to create a situation/encounter/story where you could have someone "forming and holding open" the Gate while another group is attempting to knock out the Forbiddance and allow whatever to come through the Gate. Any usage of the calling subschool version would be blocked.
I also tend to see such lists of spells as in Forbiddance as examples and not intended to be an all inclusive list unless it is extremely clear that the list is in fact intended to be all inclusive (which I do not believe is the case with Forbiddance). Otherwise it tends to create issues when introducing new publications or player created materials and spells to the campaign.
Edit: Note for instance that neither Shadow Walk nor similar magics are mentioned at all. And I likewise believe planar travel into a Forbiddance area would be blocked when using these spells.
| Cevah |
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:Cevah wrote:
Why bother with two castings? Just cast Rope Trick.
...as noted above, it's unclear under RAW whether Gate gives you access to extradimensional spaces, because those aren't "planes" as such.
That said, by the time you can cast Gate you should have access to the Create Demiplane spell. So you can just create a little demiplane that's accessed from your gazebo or something, and go in and out through that.
Doug M.
This is, of course, assuming that you have taken appropriate precautions to avoid being eaten by your own gazebo . . . .
Or any of these other 1d20 Ways To Kill PCs With A Gazebo.
/cevah
| Douglas Muir 406 |
I've been thinking about Forbiddance vs Gate and at the moment probably go with the following. The Gate would in fact form (the creation subschool effect) but travel via the Gate would be blocked as long as the Forbiddance remained...
In metagame terms, the whole point of Forbiddance is to have some way to prevent high level PCs from teleporting directly the the McGuffin -- the villain's lair, the lowest level of the dungeon, wherever -- without actually having to slog through any other encounters.
I'm not unsympathetic to that. But I'm also sympathetic to the idea that once PCs hit a certain level, these kinds of road blocks should no longer apply. If you're 18th level, by Crom you should be able to teleport straight to the villain's lair. Grinding through his outer defenses is minions' work.
Also, I'm kind of old school about 9th level spells. These are the biggest, baddest spells of all, the ones that your wizard has spent seventeen long levels climbing laboriously upwards to. "Ooh sorry, some character six levels lower than you cast Forbiddance and now you're euchred" violates the Rule of Cool in a big way IMO.
That said, the RAW is IMO unclear. So if my DM said "sorry, Forbiddance trumps Gate", I might roll my eyes a little but then I'd carry on with the adventure. YMMV.
Doug M.
| Douglas Muir 406 |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi! You forgot to mention things that raise your caster level, like a prayer bead. Use that and you can control a solar NP.
There are a lot of things that help with caster level checks -- a magician bard's dweomercraft, the cyphermage's Focused Scroll, the otherworldy kimono, you name it. But the list of things that directly raise your ECL is a lot shorter. Here are the ones I can think of offhand:
- There's the karma bead from the Prayer Beads; that gives you an eye-popping +4 ECL once/day, but it only works for divine casters.
- There's the Varisian Tattoo, which gives +1 ECL to one school.
- Spell Specialization gives you +2 ECL on one spell only (but you can swap out which one).
- Orange Prism Ioun Stone (30,000 gp) gives you a flat +1 ECL.
- Gnome Pyromaniac gives you +1 ECL on fire spells, and Gate counts as a fire spell if you're summoning creatures with the Fire subtype.
- Similarly, the Dark Magic Affinity trait gives you +1 ECL on Evil spells. It's tieflings only but hey, maybe you were adopted.
- Robe Blazing/ Voidfrost (11,000 gp). +1 ECL for spells with the fire or cold descriptor, as appropriate.
- Orb of Foul Abaddon (18,000 gp). The thing’s dread bolt power is pretty useless, but that’s not what you want it for – it also gives +1 caster level to all spells with the evil descriptor.
- The witch's Coven hex can let a witch give another witch a straight +1 ECL across the board.
- The Caller's Feather. It's a one-shot consumable (2,000 gp) whose description specifically says that it works on Gate: "The wearer can use the feather to call 2 more HD worth of creatures when casting... gate." What's less clear is whether it lets you control 2 more HD of creatures. Given its low cost, I'd say not; otherwise, it's pretty OP and a steal at the price.
- Finally, the Spell Sage's Focused Spell ability lets you surge a spell to +4 ECL three times/day. So at 17th level you could Gate --and control! -- a creature with 21 HD. Did all the other wizards laugh at you, back at the Academy, because you didn't have a familiar or a school or even a bonded item? Well, you'll show them now! You'll show them ALL AH HA HA HAAAA
ahem. Okay, did I miss any?
Doug M.
| Cevah |
Yep. See this thread. Record for 20th level character is over 120 before coven broke it.
Allied Spellcaster teamwork feat adds 1
Gifted Adept trait
Magic Tattoo (enchantment)
Altar of Nethys adds 1 to a specific spell
Wild Arcana adds 2
A nearby cleric or clerics with the Arcane subdomain using the Arcane Beacon domain power
Spell Perfection increases the Spell Specialization bonus by 2, the Magic Tatto bonus by 1, and the Allied Spellcaster bonus by 1
The Pure Magic Aura boon from the Deific Obedience (Nethys) feat adds 1d4
deathwine cast on a potion of cure serious wounds
Maestro bloodline sorcerer by 1
as many 1st level accursed bloodline (or witches w/coven) sorcerers as can fit within 30 foot
shocking robes
caster high on Aether for another +1
Arithmancy should add another +1
Death knell
trait Helpful (Halfling): +4 not +2
trait Fools for Friends: +1
Ring of Tactical Precision: +1 on aid another
mythic: Perfect Aid: +tier on aid another
The theorizing got up to +6,215,625 for mythic death stars of covens.
/cevah
| Cevah |
CWheezy wrote:Hi! You forgot to mention things that raise your caster level, like a prayer bead. Use that and you can control a solar NP.There's the karma bead from the Prayer Beads; that gives you an eye-popping +4 ECL once/day, but it only works for divine casters.
Not true.
Prayer BeadsThis item appears to be nothing more than a string of prayer beads until the owner casts a divine spell while the beads are carried. Once that occurs, the owner instantly knows the powers of the prayer beads and understands how to activate the strand's special magical beads. Each strand includes two or more special beads, each with a different magic power selected from the following list.
Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes.
The cleric bit lets you know what you are doing. Not being a cleric does not prevent you from using the item. You may need UMD to do so, but you can use the Prayer Bead.
/cevah
| Douglas Muir 406 |
The cleric bit lets you know what you are doing. Not being a cleric does not prevent you from using the item. You may need UMD to do so, but you can use the Prayer Bead.
Okay, you don't need to be a divine caster, but you definitely would need to have UMD. A bit further down: "the beads of karma and summons can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells." So you'd need a UMD roll to fool them.
Doug M.
| Douglas Muir 406 |
Yep. See this thread. Record for 20th level character is over 120 before coven broke it.
[...]
Minor tweaking: deathwine only works on necromancy spells, and there are several alchemical reagents that give +1 to particular spell schools.
That said, an impressive list! Some of these are a bit impractical in-game (the supply of Accursed bloodline sorcerors is probably not that great) and a couple might not easily apply to using Gate. But there's enough to work with here that a determined PC should have no trouble getting +6 or more on his ECL.
Doug M.
| Kayerloth |
That said, the RAW is IMO unclear. So if my DM said "sorry, Forbiddance trumps Gate", I might roll my eyes a little but then I'd carry on with the adventure. YMMV.
While I may disagree with your position on Forbiddance vs Gate I do agree with this bit. GM makes his call and either way this is fairly minor, move on and enjoy the story.
| Douglas Muir 406 |
Bumping this to include a partial list of some high-CR things you can call through your Gate. These descriptions are thanks to user Avoron (thanks, Avoron!). As noted above, you may need to boost your ECL for these guys -- but there are a number of ways to do that. (Or you could just turn them loose, of course. That's interesting too.)
Brijidine Azata [CR 17] This one is sort of meh at combat. It has an entrap option that's sort of a trap option. It has a useful list of spell-like abilities, at least, but nothing spectacular.
Purrodaemon [CR 18] Moderately useful for basic combat, a couple of okay damaging spell-like abilities, but nothing really special.
Thulgant Qlippoth [CR 18] This is where the real fun starts. Thulgants are excellent at combat, with 3 ability draining sting attacks, as well as 5 acidic tentacle attacks and additional drain when all 3 stings hit. It can get full attacks more easily than most with its quickened dimension door (not self-only), and when it can't full attack it still has its horrific appearance and incapacitating spell-like abilities, such as flesh to stone, binding, and even temporal stasis. They also have at-will dimension door, greater dispel magic and even 1/day plane shift. They're pretty well set up defensively as well, with constant displacement, freedom of movement, fast healing, and immunity to mind-affecting effects. They are especially useful against demons. But be careful - thulgants will only serve if forced to against their will.
Star Archon [CR 19] So, basically this is a 19th level cleric with full BAB and D10 hit dice. Okay, it doesn't have domains or channeling, but it does get DR, SR, regeneration, flight, some spell-like abilities, loads of immunities, and a couple of paladin abilities thrown in for good measure. Oh yeah, and if someone kills it? It explodes and turns into a shield archon. Recommended.
Vrolikai Demon [CR 19] Another solid call. These things just spray negative levels around, plus the occasional regeneration (!), symbol of death, and mass hold monster. Their tail causes confusion and Charisma drain on a failed save and staggers on a successful one. And as if all that's not enough, they can also turn anything they come up against into a juju zombie under their control just by looking at it long enough. Have a captured enemy? Hold their eyes open, and soon they will be an undead ally with all their old abilities and then some. And there's no HD limit for how much you can control at any given time! Woo!
Balor [CR 20] This iconic demon is a high risk, high reward option. It will surely use its considerable power to extract revenge for the enslavement, unless perhaps you bluff it into thinking you are more powerful than it is. (Well, if you can cast Gate, maybe that's true.) Regardless, if you do bind a balor you get an incredibly powerful melee combatants, not to mention at-will dominate monster, greater dispel magic, and power word stun, plus other useful spell-like abilities.
Eremite Kyton [CR 20] Another good one. 5 natural attacks, each one bringing a save or be staggered with a save penalty against the eremite’s abilities. It gets Grab on its claws, and a swift action ability to deal ability drain to a grappled foe. Add a gaze attack causing paralysis and Wisdom drain, and great DR, SR, and regeneration. And the Eremite’s SLA list is one of the best in the game - at-will Shadow Walk for the whole party, 3/day plane shift for the whole party, several different SoS and battlefield control spells, some healing, some damage, and some symbols of pain. But the true strength of their SLA list is the ability to use greater shadow evocation and shades to replicate any 7th level or lower sorcerer/wizard evocation spell and any 8th level or lower conjuration spell in the game three times per day each, as a standard action. The opportunities for creative play here are pretty unlimited.
Olethrodaemon [CR 20] Gargantuan size and 7 natural attacks with lots of grab make this a fairly powerful form for combat, although the defenses are poor for this CR. It has some powerful SLAs and a breath weapon, but those are almost entirely just damage, and cannot be used many times per day. At-will wall spells are fun. Not a bad choice, but there are several options that are better at this CR.
Pit Fiend [CR 20] The iconic devil, and rightly so. It is certainly able in melee, with 6 natural attacks (a couple with grab or poison) and good defenses. Its SLAs are extremely powerful; wish 1/year is cool and all, but it’s at-will SLAs alone can change the course of a battle: blasphemy, create undead, trap the soul, greater dispel magic, greater scrying, persistent image, mass hold monster, and power-word stun. Again, those are all at-will! And perhaps the most interesting thing about it is its devil shaping ability, which makes it possible to just bind a huge number of lemures and turn them into whatever devils you feel like.
Asurendra Asura [CR 20] A great natural attack routine, good defenses, freedom of movement, and the ability to conjure a bunch of floating blades to attack your enemies. It has at-will greater scrying and greater dispel magic, plus some very powerful 3/day spells like demand and quickened baleful polymorph. It even gets 1/day time stop, although there’s not much it can do with that. Finally, if your GM allows you to call asuras with the Blasphemous Sage alternate abilities listed, you can get asurendras with other interesting things, such as a Create Asura ability that functions like Devil Shaping, but for Asuras. You could even get a Sacrelidge Asurendra with a 1/day miracle SLA. If you can find a way to make its “blasphemous design” coincide with your goals, it looks like it could even use the more powerful miracle option that normally costs 25,000 gp.
Doug M.