I'm having some trouble transitioning into the mass combat phase of WotRK. Specifically, coming up with a good in-game reason for the players to work within the mass combat rules instead of doing their usual charge-the-monster tactic.
I know that ultimately I can put my foot down and say, this is how the rules work for this, but I find that unsatisfying. I can't be sure, but I have the feeling that the group could take out an army or two. Something similar happened in the days before mass combat rules, when my group pretty much waltzed through the siege in book 5 of Council of Thieves.
Just wondering how others have handled this.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I tackled this way back in Rivers Run Red. Using Dudemeister's Hargulka's Monster Kingdom rewrite, there's a bit where a tiny troll army attacks. I gave my players the option of going in gung-ho and taking on the entire troll force themselves, or quickly throwing together a small militia to take them on numbers-to-numbers. They of course elected the former.
It was a knock-down, drag-out fight that lasted an entire session, caused a ton of HP and property damage, and ended up with a dead Magister, severely wounded but victorious party, and half of the in-construction Tatzylford in ruins. At that point they learned that there is just a point where they have to bow to overwhelming odds, and the next several months involved greater investment into the colony's military. When they later attacked Hargulka's own lair, they had four army units backing them up, keeping the troll gangs busy while the PCs delved into Hargulka's lair and took out the leadership.
So that's my recommendation. Let them try, but have the army equipped for the situation. Have the army's archers know to lay fire en masse on any casters, have counter-spell casters and/or their own spellcaster combat control units, have prepared defenses against warrior PCs known for their combat tactics, and such like. By WOTRK the party is semi-famous and Irovetti has definitely done his research and passed the information to his generals. Once the PCs learn they can't just curbstomp the enemy army - the numbers are just too unbalanced, and enemy armies can have mages too - they may feel more inclined to invest in their own military might.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Invulnerable party tank? Enemy soldiers flank him, surround him, and use aid another so one of them can hit him successfully. That is, if they don't just grapple him and sit on him.
Create pit, with another create pit if the first catches him repeat until he's 70 feet down and then create water on the sides of the pit to increase the climb check in the mud
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Are you sure?" is universally known to be GM-speak for "Do you want to start rolling up a new character up now, or do you want to first wait for me to explain what happens next in horrific gory detail?"
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seen it. Once, then they learned.
Short story, the group charged into melee, crashing headlong into an orc multi-tribal horde.
After a couple of rounds of cleaving and arcane blasting, the warchiefs shouted orders, and the first line of orcs started foaming at the mouth. Then they went in, oblivious of losses, grabbed the wizard and the bard (easiest grapple victims), and brought them away.
The group panicked.
A few hundred yards away, orc shamans started bringing up crude contraptions to ritually slaughter victims on the battlefield, to appease the orcish gods.
The group panicked some more.
The rest of the party went through a lot of hurt, while trying to get their comrades back to safety, harassed by lowly troops and slowed by the occasional elite enemy (orc warchiefs, ogres, an handful of giants), and ran for their lives as soon as possible.
Back at their base camp, they also suffered the indignity of an army officer berating them for risking their lives of most capable warriors and spellcasters just for a few dozen orcs.
tl;dr: split the party. Wreck their strategy.
No battleplan survives contact with the enemy, neither should a lousy one such as six people against a whole army in an open field.
Create pit, with another create pit if the first catches him repeat until he's 70 feet down and then create water on the sides of the pit to increase the climb check in the mud
Invulnerable party tank? Enemy soldiers flank him, surround him, and use aid another so one of them can hit him successfully. That is, if they don't just grapple him and sit on him.
I'm pretty sure you can't create pit inside of another create pit.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yea this is a pretty easy one. Remember even with the lowliest of creatures, everything hits on a 20. So twenty of anything are going to hit anything once a round. 100 of anything are going to hit anything 5 times a round. That just goes up if your opponents are able to hit you on an 18 (pretty tough odds normally) that group of 20 kobolds is going to hit 3 times that round. You get the idea. Large numbers beat special tallent practically every time.
Hey awesome tank with the 40 AC! You just took on 100 kobolds. They hit you 5 times a round. In 10 rounds you have killed 20-30 kobolds and they have hit you about 40 times!...You just got Boromired!
OK, that's all useful advice.
I ended up giving the party a mission to take out some siege engines around Fort Stroon (nee Drelev) and bombed them with numbers. They won initiative and started out strong -- a 12th level party can do a lot of damage to catapults quickly -- but by the end they were in full retreat mode.
The only issue was that I went with an army that was about 50% little soldiers and 50% mid-range classed characters (using heralds, wardens, and marshals/archers from Jason Nelson's original manuscript). It was a lot easier than managing scores of soldiers, but it may have made the army TOO powerful-seeming in relation to the defenders in the fort. Ah well.
By giving the players an objective, I was able to let them succeed while at the same time impressing on them how quickly a direct assault on an army can go bad.
thanks all!
My party decided to go talk to an army of Mammoth Riding Hill Giants. The giants got tired of talking fairly soon.
The party teleported away during the second round of combat - when they realised that one of their fighters had lost half his HP in a single round of combat with the giant leader. "Trumpy", the chieftains pet riding mammoth, was just ambling over and the rest of the giants (on their mammoths) were closing ....
Specifically, coming up with a good in-game reason for the players to work within the mass combat rules
First you should ask yourself, why do you want to inflict mass combat rules on your players. They are not good or interesting. They do not accomplish anything worthwile in this AP too - players still have to personally blitz the bad guys' leadership. And savvy players will likely want to go straight to that phase...
Fighter charging on his horse?
It was many years of real-time, since I last saw characters who were above level 6 or so using horses at all, much less in battle... Gryphons and giant eagles are a more common sight, really. Characters actually built for mounted charges usually had more exotic and hardcore flying mounts at mid-to-high levels...
PC wizard casting spells to zap enemy soldiers? Two dozen enemy archers use "ready action" to turn him into a pincushion as soon as he casts a spell.
The wizard is flying, invisible, and probably has several other layers of protection just in case (it's not like he has anything better to do with his low-level spells). Try to be ready for this, archers.
PC bard inspiring heroism? Enemy marching band drowns him out with trumpets.
PC bard will more likely be out neutralizing enemy commanders at this point...
Invulnerable party tank? Enemy soldiers flank him, surround him, and use aid another so one of them can hit him successfully. That is, if they don't just grapple him and sit on him.
I guess characters whose idea of tanking boiled down to high AC deserve this ignominy.
Yeah, your players can carve a bloody path through an army of level 2 warriors. But there are always a hundred more level 2 warriors ready to go.
"The more grass there is, the easier it to scythe down", as attributed to Alarich in response to citizens of Rome trying to scare him with their numbers. And he and his horde weren't even superhuman.
Practically every idea about taking on high-level PC with sheer numbers of mooks is based on the assuption that those mooks behave not like living beings, but like strangely intelligent zombies. Real hundreds of level 2 warriors will be running like mad from a monster who just cut down a dozen of men in half as many seconds and looks like he's willing to continue.
There are many ways for P.C.'s to destroy an army especial if they are smart about it. With teleport the P.C. can bluff up run in and kill a few hundred in one night then run aways before the bluffs run out then do it again.
That's not even considering attacking the command or supply.
I expect an army to break quickly when having to deal with these super beings.
I also think that destroying an army single handedly should bring the P.C.'s a large amount of fame.
That's why you don't have armies and make sure to keep up your anti-divination pre-cations. Really a bit like any other head of state.
Not to say armies don't have there place. The P.C's might be able to destroy an army, but they can't hold territory very well. Also you need an army to process the other armies surrender the P.C's can't hold that many prisoners.
I think the debate is less about "Is it realistic to have PCs slaughtering an army?" and more about "Is it fun for you and your players to have PCs slaughtering an army?".
Sounds fun to me, but only in play by post so you can do a bunch of rolls at once.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My favorite all-time event was when (in Runequest) two dwarven rune lords in iron plate mail charged 30 trollkin with slings.
The trollkin could not possibly hurt the dwarves without a roll of 01 or 02 on percentile dice. (A critical that bypasses armor in RQ.)
Two rounds later, after 120 rolls, one dwarf was dead and the other was trying to get out of the hailstorm.
No matter how tough you are, if you let 1000+ people roll against you, they're going to get enough 'automatic successes' to bring you down...
EDIT: On the other side of things, as a "between modules" event in Curse of the Crimson Throne I had an orcish army of 120 orcs plus some leaders and a red dragon attack a Sklar Quah camp protected by the party. Watching what a 16th-level druid and 13th-level wizard can do to a group of low-level mooks is truly awe-inspiring...
