So how important are the mental stats attached to a class? Could you freely change these? What would happen if you did? Does it affect the caster more than a martial? What's it a worth, a feat? What changes could be improvements do you think?
Lots of questions, but I'm asking because I'm curious if the game explodes if you swap the necessary casting stat for a class. Someone asked me how an intelligent cleric would change the game because they wanted more skill points and were curious if it was a good change, but I'm not particular sure myself. I mean, if we change the fluff a bit I don't see any immediate harm, but I'm curious what other people think.
I think charisma will become even more of a dump stat than it currently is. I do like the theory, but in practice could be problematic with some combos.
Aside from that, there's of course the secondary effects of the stat bonus, like CHA being only situationally useful, while the other two give concrete benefits just by being high. So that's something to think about before you base Sorcerors/Oracles off of INT (not that that'd be terribly imbalanced imo).
That's the one thought that's swimming in my head mostly. That said, a collegiate bard sounds awesome! but he might blow away all of his competition when it comes to skill points though, but then he'd suffer from versatile performance being weaker.
You also end up with an intelligent ninja with a guile focused pool(never have enough skill points?), or with a wise ninja with a wisdom focused pool(yay will save!).
I think charisma will become even more of a dump stat than it currently is. I do like the theory, but in practice could be problematic with some combos.
Charisma might never be used again, or might be the one thing someone really wants and then suddenly has synergy with his class features that it didn't have before making it viable! Charismatic wizards and clerics and rogues, oh my! Rather than being stuck with the oracle, sorcerer, or bard, etc.
In what particular combos do you see problems? Think I should just allow it for martials who aren't as affected?
I think this is worth playtesting to see which combinations work or Break. If i were to make a guess, i see monk dipping like with synthesist.
I think this is worth playtesting to see which combinations work or Break. If i were to make a guess, i see monk dipping like with synthesist.
Hmm... Does synthesis work like that? I thought it counted as armor in its own way. Does that mean I can go Mistmail + Monk AC + Synthesist?
How about a regular caster + Monk? I mean, you give up your caster stat but in turn you get a full time armor bonus that could outpace most armors you would wear. That happens to be something wisdom based casters can already do with some cash, or that an empyreal sorc can't already do.
Does take playtesting, but that's why I threw the idea out there. Also doubles as a good thought experiment. I think those problems might be gone in a vacuum without multi-classing, but with multi-classing there might be one or two odd ones. Maybe adapt it so you could only use one mental stat per dip? I don't think I can come up with anything off the top of my head that uses 2 mental scores outside of cleric(who desperately want room for skill points imo, and as I said was the reason I asked)
Hence the playtest, find the combinations that work and format as simple archetypes and simply dont produce archetypes that support broken combos. Intelligence summoner is fine, wisdom summoner is a dip away from being a significant problem.
Kensaix/intelligence monk1 probably could be problematic as well. Kinda wanna try this as well to find fun combos. This certainly makes the champion of iori a bit less MAD.
Hence the playtest, find the combinations that work and format as simple archetypes and simply dont produce archetypes that support broken combos. Intelligence summoner is fine, wisdom summoner is a dip away from being a significant problem.
Would be variants, eh? Archetypes infers I'm going to take everything and only offer you the full package or no, a variant or houserule infers I'm just going to offer you an intelligent cleric or charismatic magus. More so I'd rather invoke this as a house rule at home for everyone to have a wider variety of character choice, rather than a small sample.
Good to see what the forum thinks about these ideas though. Fun thought experiment, if only for flavor. I think that if you just watch out for a more broken combinations your thinking of(like most home games will, or at the ones interested), then it can't do much harm.
This certainly makes the champion of iori a bit less MAD.
And Champions of Irori need it imo!
A friend of mine wants to play a charisma-based wizard with a picture book spellbook. I'm inclined to let him.
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As a homebrew thing, I could see spending a feat to go from charisma to intelligence or intelligence to wisdom.
As a homebrew thing, I could see spending a feat to go from charisma to intelligence or intelligence to wisdom.Like this?
albeit free and applying to all class features.
Some stats are better than others. Trading up should have a cost.
Hmm... would that also imply that 'trading down', i.e. switching over to Cha, should come with some sort of added benefit?
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I've actually house ruled changes to a lot of casting stats in my own game to reflect the flavor of the class instead of mechanics.
Classes use Intelligence as their casting stat of their understanding of magic is based on a rational understanding of the universe and the energies that permeate it (Used by Wizards, Magi, Summoners, Alchemists)
Wisdom is used by classes who's power is related to how well the can interpret or understand a philosophy, or an abstract or unknown force (Witches, Oracles, Druids)
Charisma is used by classes that depend on conviction or force of personality and will to manifest their magic (Clerics, Sorcerers, Inquisitors)
Class features that are tied to those attributes are generally changed as well. I've kept bards as cha because I'm really not sure about how their magic ought to work, and they've just got so many other abilities that are thematically tied to cha that I feel like changing it would make no sense.
not a problem. even without a trait tax.
i'd also allow it to extend to such things as Ki/Arcana/Grit Pools and other class features dependant on the classes primary stat
for example, intelligent ninja with a guile pool whom can multiclass as intelligent sorcerers and become arcane tricksters
in fact a trait tax would be best, if it had to be a feat, make it a feat with an additional benefit as well.
hell, allow casters to choose physical stats for casting stats as well. allowing such things as CON based sorcerers or STR based oracles of Gorum
I'm definitely considering a trait to allow you to shuffle your 'casting stat/main stat' around, and adding CON to the mix to represent channeling energy through your body. This is at least in part because my current houserules/world-building rules eliminate a lot of INT-based casters, though.
I think it'd work better as a series of class-specific traits, rather than just one over-arcing trait, if for no other reason than someone intending to Multiclass could take both if desired.
I'm definitely considering a trait to allow you to shuffle your 'casting stat/main stat' around, and adding CON to the mix to represent channeling energy through your body. This is at least in part because my current houserules/world-building rules eliminate a lot of INT-based casters, though.
I think it'd work better as a series of class-specific traits, rather than just one over-arcing trait, if for no other reason than someone intending to Multiclass could take both if desired.
even if it were one overarching trait, it wouldn't be overpowered
and i see nothing wrong with strength based oracles of Gorum or Rovagug or Dexterity based Clerics of Erastil or Norgober.
but i'd like to see the traits expanded to cover such things as monk and ninja ki abilities, gunslinger grit pools, magus arcana pools, or the use of bloodline powers and the like.
maybe a series of class specific traits that allow you to choose any of the 6 abilities as an alternate class feature attribute trait.
Maybe, but my brain is incapable of making sense out of the idea of STR or DEX based spellcasting.
Maybe, but my brain is incapable of making sense out of the idea of STR or DEX based spellcasting.
You ever punched the universe so hard that you made something explode?
You ever try to escape the laws of the universe so hard you teleported across the world?
You ever use physical stimulation and practice to bend the universe or enter meditation?
Anyways, I always thought something like this wouldn't even need a trait. Its trading something for a relative equivalent in order to reach a character concept. I don't like making people invest in being themselves. Bonuses are something you invest in. Being who you want to be should be free as far as I'm concerned.
Maybe, but my brain is incapable of making sense out of the idea of STR or DEX based spellcasting.
STR? the Ancient Philosophy that a Strong Body Houses a Strong Spirit. a lot of Greeks beleived this, and they also beleived that a strong enough person could create miracles through their strength alone. it's a greek Principle that could be adopted by any warrior culture. the Nature Witch in Luminous Arc 1 for the DS, Mavi or Navi, whatever her name was, was a Strength based Spellcaster whom adopted this philosphy and cast her spells by virtue of her strength and fitness
DEX? think of puppetry and stage magic, both use a lot of fine motor skills and those fine motor skills could cover a mage whose magic derives from her dextrous hands, as an Example, Alice Margatroid from the Touhou Franchise. she can weave and sew her puppets so finely, that she can develop a near psychic bond that allows her to control them with her thoughts and a bit of magic. as an Another Example, think of Arachne from Greek Myth, or the Crimson String of Fate in Japanese Superstition, both could also be baselines for dexterity based casters, applying a highly refined weaving, sewing, or puppeteering motion to their spells.
This is an interesting idea... but honestly I dont think I would ever give it entirely free. If you want a guileful ninja, a wise wizard etc... write me some decent fluff to go with it. (make the player, not the PC, work for it). I'm not dissatisfied with the current way things work, but it would make for some interesting combos (namely a better arcane strickter).
But magic from physical stats? Eh... A decent case was made for the Scarred witch doctor (IE power coming from suffering) but I would be rather doubtful about it. I'd need to see it playtested first, because I tend to think it would be a bit much.Dex to attack/damage? Sure, not problem. But dex to spells, attack, damage & everything else... I'm not sure it would be manageable. Oh well, I'm only starting out as a GM anyway.
This is an interesting idea... but honestly I dont think I would ever give it entirely free. If you want a guileful ninja, a wise wizard etc... write me some decent fluff to go with it. (make the player, not the PC, work for it). I'm not dissatisfied with the current way things work, but it would make for some interesting combos (namely a better arcane strickter).
But magic from physical stats? Eh... A decent case was made for the Scarred witch doctor (IE power coming from suffering) but I would be rather doubtful about it. I'd need to see it playtested first, because I tend to think it would be a bit much.Dex to attack/damage? Sure, not problem. But dex to spells, attack, damage & everything else... I'm not sure it would be manageable. Oh well, I'm only starting out as a GM anyway.
imagine how many feats and traits the dex Jockey is sacrificing to be Dex based in combat for the flavor of a magical puppeteer or weaver type character.
in fact, right now, we don't even have a class for a puppeteer whom uses his or her puppets to fight for him. at least not a viable one that isn't simply a gimped archetype of an overpowered class.
we need puppet themed spells.
a Trait and like 2 or 3 feats. to be a more roguish arcane trickster whom uses sleight of hand to perform their somatic components and applies their refined motor skills.
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This is an interesting idea... but honestly I dont think I would ever give it entirely free. If you want a guileful ninja, a wise wizard etc... write me some decent fluff to go with it. (make the player, not the PC, work for it).
Fluff is the point!
Not too keen on physical stats. They tend to wear more than the mental ones. Everyone would like an excuse to have a 30 con and have everything burn off it. 30 Strength Oracle with strength to everything would be nuts. On the other hand, 30 strength wizard doesn't sound as terrifying to me as a 30 intellect one.
Mental seem to do less crazy things without stepping on toes though, so I thought I'd ask about those. To be honest I wouldn't mind a ninja that uses his body to determine ki pool for example. Seems natural and wouldn't blow the world up. Mind you I had Another Thread on determining ki and the like.
This is an interesting idea... but honestly I dont think I would ever give it entirely free. If you want a guileful ninja, a wise wizard etc... write me some decent fluff to go with it. (make the player, not the PC, work for it).Fluff is the point!
Not too keen on physical stats. They tend to wear more than the mental ones. Everyone would like an excuse to have a 30 con and have everything burn off it. 30 Strength Oracle with strength to everything would be nuts. On the other hand, 30 strength wizard doesn't sound as terrifying to me as a 30 intellect one.
Mental seem to do less crazy things without stepping on toes though, so I thought I'd ask about those. To be honest I wouldn't mind a ninja that uses his body to determine ki pool for example. Seems natural and wouldn't blow the world up. Mind you I had Another Thread on determining ki and the like.
I've been wondering if letting "ki" work like an arcane pool would be acceptable for a while (basically, all the effects of ki, but with the possibility of using it to give enhancement bonuses for 1 minute, maybe limit it to unarmed strikes). It would help limit the reliance on the AOMF. But that's not the point for this convo.
Well, if someone tests a physical-based caster alongside "normal" classes without problem I might consider it. Might.
Maybe, but my brain is incapable of making sense out of the idea of STR or DEX based spellcasting.You ever punched the universe so hard that you made something explode?
You ever try to escape the laws of the universe so hard you teleported across the world?
You ever use physical stimulation and practice to bend the universe or enter meditation?
No, no, and no.
Maybe, but my brain is incapable of making sense out of the idea of STR or DEX based spellcasting.STR? the Ancient Philosophy that a Strong Body Houses a Strong Spirit. a lot of Greeks beleived this, and they also beleived that a strong enough person could create miracles through their strength alone. it's a greek Principle that could be adopted by any warrior culture. the Nature Witch in Luminous Arc 1 for the DS, Mavi or Navi, whatever her name was, was a Strength based Spellcaster whom adopted this philosphy and cast her spells by virtue of her strength and fitness
DEX? think of puppetry and stage magic, both use a lot of fine motor skills and those fine motor skills could cover a mage whose magic derives from her dextrous hands, as an Example, Alice Margatroid from the Touhou Franchise. she can weave and sew her puppets so finely, that she can develop a near psychic bond that allows her to control them with her thoughts and a bit of magic. as an Another Example, think of Arachne from Greek Myth, or the Crimson String of Fate in Japanese Superstition, both could also be baselines for dexterity based casters, applying a highly refined weaving, sewing, or puppeteering motion to their spells.
I've no familiarity with Luminous Arc, Touhou, or a Crimson String, so i can't comment on those.
A strong spirit would be CHA, IMHO.
Arachne wasn't making magic, she was just weaving something ... and how would that work with spells with no somatic component or stilled spells?
STR based spellcasting.
"So, Mr. Wizard, I don't see any robes on you, care to cast a spell for us?"
"Certainly. I CAST FIST."
*Uppity thug is splattered against 1.5 miles of pavement*
Personally, that sounds great. The 3pp Godling could have used that. Might have rated more than "slightly interesting"
I could see Con be used for a few things, including bonus to DR...
Maybe, but my brain is incapable of making sense out of the idea of STR or DEX based spellcasting.STR? the Ancient Philosophy that a Strong Body Houses a Strong Spirit. a lot of Greeks beleived this, and they also beleived that a strong enough person could create miracles through their strength alone. it's a greek Principle that could be adopted by any warrior culture. the Nature Witch in Luminous Arc 1 for the DS, Mavi or Navi, whatever her name was, was a Strength based Spellcaster whom adopted this philosphy and cast her spells by virtue of her strength and fitness
DEX? think of puppetry and stage magic, both use a lot of fine motor skills and those fine motor skills could cover a mage whose magic derives from her dextrous hands, as an Example, Alice Margatroid from the Touhou Franchise. she can weave and sew her puppets so finely, that she can develop a near psychic bond that allows her to control them with her thoughts and a bit of magic. as an Another Example, think of Arachne from Greek Myth, or the Crimson String of Fate in Japanese Superstition, both could also be baselines for dexterity based casters, applying a highly refined weaving, sewing, or puppeteering motion to their spells.
I've no familiarity with Luminous Arc, Touhou, or a Crimson String, so i can't comment on those.
A strong spirit would be CHA, IMHO.
Arachne wasn't making magic, she was just weaving something ... and how would that work with spells with no somatic component or stilled spells?
a lot of Anime have magical weavers based upon Arachne, But Alice Margatroid was a Dexterity based sorcerer whose magic was empowered by her extremely fine motor skills derived from her training as a puppeteer. in a lot of fan works, she isn't reknowned for intellect wisdom or charisma, but her dextrous hands. she never used a stilled spell at all, but as long as she kept practicing her motor skills, she could still cast her spells. casting spells counted as practice. she was simply immune to stuns and had fine enough motor skills to cast somatic spells, even when bound. she was a high level mage with a pretty high dexterity based concentration check. it wasn't that her spells lacked somatic components, it's that the components were so based upon her already godlike fine dexterity that made it possible to cast nonsomatic or stilled spells (a bit of reskinning). the reason her 'dimension door' would lack somatic on paper. is because the somatic is so basic it is irrelevant, still would represent the effort of struggling to do somatic while bound or stunned. in Bleach, Uryu Ishida had multiple scenarios where he should have been bound and helpless, but through self puppetry, he could function normality at a slight stamina increase, Alice had a similar ability
the crimson string of fate is a japanese superstitition, the idea, is every individual has an invisible crimson string from their left pinky finger that binds their fates to those of several others, and that the strings are akin to a spider's web, a mage whom can see the crimson hue of the strings, can control another by learning to play with their specific string
Luminous Arc is a Strategy game for the DS about some escaped children whom get help from 7 elemental mages on slaying a false god. the witch of earth, doesn't really have a high intelligence, wisdom or charisma (quite horribly low), but she compensates with her strength based earth spells, effectively a strength based control druid. she doesn't naturally have a strong force of will, a keen intellect or great wisdom, but by keeping her body especially fit and strong, she can retain her spellcasting ability, it's not that the greeks whom shared her philosophies had a strong spirit or high charisma, it's that she and them, were like the spartans of magics, their magical power was based upon their physical fitness, strength based casters are essentially heavy lifting health and fitness nut.
Alex Louise Armstrong from Fullmetal Alchemist can be considered another example of a Strength based Caster. yes, his spells were all strength based, and so was his Mana pool and spell related variables.
he would be an example of a battle oracle with strength based casting and revelations, the battle mystery. and a lot of touch spells he adds his strength modifer and cestus damage to. he has power attack working on his touch spells as well.
Alex Louise Armstrong from Fullmetal Alchemist can be considered another example of a Strength based Caster. yes, his spells were all strength based, and so was his Mana pool and spell related variables.
His techniques were passed down through the Armstrong family for generations!
FMA tended to have a lot of martial combats for wizard kind of people. Alchemy didn't really have a mental source and a lot of them were extremely specialized. Not sure if its a totally fair comparison. There are a lot of characters in anime who use ki/chi/chakra though, and physical stimulation leads to mental stimulation. Lots of ways to run it I'd think. Dexterity as the ability to handle movements and manipulate that around you is a nice one, like weaving a pattern.
Yeah, a lot of the "physical" type casters where often hyper-specialized; kinda like if a physical caster had access to only a single school of magic, or a single "type" of magic. I could very well see a strength mage being limited to spells from the "earth" school, and a dex one limited to the spells of the "air" school. Maybe water associated with con? Could make for an interesting type of class, a sort of "elementalist", each with VERY specialized spellcasting going off unusual stats.
I'm still not buying it, sorry.
And I still have no idea who in the hell any of these names you're throwing about are.
I'm still not buying it, sorry.
And I still have no idea who in the hell any of these names you're throwing about are.
It's a lot of manga/anime stuff zhayne. I recognize most of them (quite a few are well known) but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Let's just say the orient has different concepts of magic than the occident.
Also, it's been a while since I've read FMA, wasnt alchemy more of a science? IE, no mana pools, just creative use of the matter around you? It's been a while.
I'm still not buying it, sorry.
And I still have no idea who in the hell any of these names you're throwing about are.
Full Metal Alchemist was an anime/manga that was popular a few years ago. Has a second series that follows its comic book series more closely called Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood. Armstrong was one of the main characters and he was a very muscular man who plays on a lot of japanese tropes related to that. Most of the alchemist fought physically instead of just using their alchemy, which a few exceptions.
Also, it's been a while since I've read FMA, wasnt alchemy more of a science? IE, no mana pools, just creative use of the matter around you? It's been a while.
Man, once they start talking about the gate it gets all trippy and it depends on which one of the series your watching. Its a magical science that eats souls... or something... yeah. Also it may have caused a world war in another world because uhh... yeah.
Did we go off topic?
I'm still not buying it, sorry.
And I still have no idea who in the hell any of these names you're throwing about are.
It's a lot of manga/anime stuff zhayne. I recognize most of them (quite a few are well known) but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Let's just say the orient has different concepts of magic than the occident.
Also, it's been a while since I've read FMA, wasnt alchemy more of a science? IE, no mana pools, just creative use of the matter around you? It's been a while.
the alchemists had a reserve of life energy they had to use to fuel their transmutations, in addition to the matter around them. the difference in 'mana pools' was based upon the physical fitness of the person around them.
it was mentioned later on, but alchemists to transmute, often tapped into the energy of their own lifeforce to power their transmutations, they were limited in how they applied it, but it worked very similar to a mana pool
philosophers stones were basically cognizance crystals that carried a lot of life energy to utilize for a massive, though not unlimited amount of free spells and the energy in the stone could be used as a substitute for matter.
Still not convinced that FMA has str/dex/con casting but anyways. We are getting off subject.
As far as switching mental stats for other mental stats... I'm more in favor for some than others. An int-based ninja? Sure. A cha-based gunslinger? No problem. Spellcasters are always different to me because their stat is so utterly tied to their type of spellcasting. Int for wizards (because their power comes from study), cha for sorcerers/oracles (the whole "force of personality bends nature") and wisdom for clerics/druids (awareness of the world around them/their god's will). If someone could come up with some good fluff, maybe? I'm not seeing it would be unbalanced, but I want to have at least some sort of coherence? I dont even like the whole empyreal/sage bloodline stuff, just doesnt make sense to me.
I'm not too worried mechanically, but Im not playing this purely for the mechanics, so I would like to have stuff be coherent.
This is a good discussion, making me think hard.
Still not convinced that FMA has str/dex/con casting but anyways. We are getting off subject.
As far as switching mental stats for other mental stats... I'm more in favor for some than others. An int-based ninja? Sure. A cha-based gunslinger? No problem. Spellcasters are always different to me because their stat is so utterly tied to their type of spellcasting. Int for wizards (because their power comes from study), cha for sorcerers/oracles (the whole "force of personality bends nature") and wisdom for clerics/druids (awareness of the world around them/their god's will). If someone could come up with some good fluff, maybe? I'm not seeing it would be unbalanced, but I want to have at least some sort of coherence? I dont even like the whole empyreal/sage bloodline stuff, just doesnt make sense to me.
I'm not too worried mechanically, but Im not playing this purely for the mechanics, so I would like to have stuff be coherent.
This is a good discussion, making me think hard.
the Armstrong Family are definitely Strength based casters
yes, alchemy might have been labeled a science in the series, but its canon implementation was closer to a form of magic that required material components and a bit of life energy.
it could easily be called hermetic magic, a form of magic that required material components and something symbolic of life, often blood, or other life making bodily fluids of a different nature