How does this class do at high level? I'm thinking the 12 to 20 range once enemies gain access to greater dispel magic and word spells that can get rid of tons of summoned creatures with one casting.
How do the summoned creatures do at high level in combat against creatures with higher ACs and hit points?
I'm thinking of playing a summoner of some kind. Our campaign should get to level 15 or so. How do the various summoners perform at high level?
Any takers for this or has really nobody even played a Summoner at high level? ^^
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Any takers for this or has really nobody even played a Summoner at high level? ^^
Only masochists play at high level; everyone else just theorycrafts.
How does this class do at high level? I'm thinking the 12 to 20 range once enemies gain access to greater dispel magic and word spells that can get rid of tons of summoned creatures with one casting.
They'll run out of Greater Dispel Magic before you run out of Summon Monster. At higher levels, almost all caster duels come down to preparation. If someone is reading GDM from a phone book of scrolls, you're hosed, but that's true basically no matter what you're playing, unless you have a comparable phone book yourself.
Any takers for this or has really nobody even played a Summoner at high level? ^^Only masochists play at high level; everyone else just theorycrafts.
Thanks, but I've finished five campaigns as GM, three from level 1-20 and two AP's so far, and am near finishing one of my two Jade Regent campaigns. And then there are the four campaigns where I went from 1-20 as a player.
Thanks, but I've finished five campaigns as GM, three from level 1-20 and two AP's so far, and am near finishing one of my two Jade Regent campaigns. And then there are the four campaigns where I went from 1-20 as a player.Any takers for this or has really nobody even played a Summoner at high level? ^^Only masochists play at high level; everyone else just theorycrafts.
You're welcome.
I have played at high-level and enjoyed it. Unfortunately there was no Summoner in the party, so I cannot say how they perform. Hopefully others will chime in. With the way Summoners are constantly proclaimed as wildly OP you'd think there'd be more of them around. ;)
I played a high level Summoner in our Kingmaker campaign. She was immensely powerful. The Eidolon could almost outdamage the barbarian, had almost as many HP, and had much better AC. Bad guys tried to focus fire the Eidolon first allowing everyone else to do their thing. The summoner would buff the Eidolon and the rest of the party and near the campaign carried a Staff of Heal and a crate of CLW wands to keep everyone up and running (the summoner was the party healer).
The GM never held back against the Eidolon and poor Frosty died often, but he'd always be resummoned the next day ready to go again. With the right magic items and a high enough UMD skill the Summoner can really do just about anything. Just remember to throw buffs on your fellow party members and to support them as well as your Eidolon.
Regular summoned monsters pretty much suck as offensive weapons - even buffed. They do however make great meat shields/blockers. Many have SLA's that are useful as well or are great at Combat Maneuvers. I was lazy and just tended to summon them as back-up tanks after Frosty went down but there is a true art to summoning the right monster for the job.
We had a ranger and a barbarian that could unload serious damage so to win we just had to keep the enemy away from the squishies.
They're OUTSTANDING at high levels. Eidolon and summon monster lists really come into their own at higher levels. I haven't played one myself, but I was in a party with one. Eidolon was godly, when it was away... Hordes of elestial pouncing smiting tigers...was also godly. And the spell list...holy crap, such nice level reductions. Works awesome w/ metamagic rods to save you money.
I only played a Master Summoner up to lvl 5 before I became the over deity of the universe.
I'm running an evolutionist summoner in ROTRL at the moment and loving it.
UMD of 30 so far and scrolls are cheap and easy to find in riddleport so I can has any kinda casting I need for a relatively fair price... I keep my head down and throw an invisible flanking bokuto of stalking if the fights last long enough which is fun because i'm funky.
I'm running it kinda tame with only a 2 claw biped with improved rend feat chain. DR10, fast healing 1, 3 evolutions in con and 3 more con points from levels. She's got 120 hit points so she hasnt ever had to borrow mine. One more level and I get to borrow hers.
At 13 I just got access to huge so I'm looking forward to trying the old 30 foot tall eidolon with the 15 foot reach and the 41 strength, 26 bab, one handed rend for 3d6+37 and a non rend claw of d6+15. Which again, by most people's standards might be considered pretty tame. Toss a haste and some elemental damage on that... Should be fun.
Just yesterday I transmogrified all her evolution points into gills and swim speed... swim speed 375... Sandpoint to riddleport in under 7 hours without teleports... That was pretty fun. Havent had a chance to try the firebaby trick (immune to fire, cover in flaming pitch, wind 'em up and set 'em loose) but I'm looking forward to (huge/winged flight speed 95) (non huge flight speed 195)....
Toss a ring of continuation on her, grab a scroll of shapechange or form of the dragon III and have a pet dragon or whatever all day long... should be pretty fun.
The higher I go the more fun it is. I'm not minmaxin it though. Freakshow Kali builds or tramplepouncers or grapplestingers or whatever could easily be MUCH worse than I'm doin or plannin. Not really my style though.
Yep. Currently rocking the boundary chalk for my forcewalls... Invisibility ring, fate's favored trait with luckstone and bestow luck tree gets me a +9 to a roll if theres one thing a day that I know ahead of time REALLY needs to get done... or +8 to someone else... scholar's ring to keep the lines of communication open, mask of 1000 tomes to help with downtime research since i'm not int based... Shadow falconers glove for some fun off the wall theivery now and then... Amulet of mighty fists and cloak of resistance and bracers of the glib entertainer for her... +21 sing skill for her to she sings me to sleep everynight before disappearing. Portable hole and a guyser scroll for the portable hot tub...
Creature comforts man.
Saving up to buy some Greater demiplane and permanent scrolls to set myself up for retirement. Hope to find some manuals and tomes of cha and con... no rush. Keepin it interesting.
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For the player who likes being the Chessmaster, the Summoner is a dream come true.
I am playing a halfling MS in a homebrew game and am not using an eidolon at all. Like lazar said I use the SM as battlefield control along with the pit and grease spells and buffing the party all the while staying invisible.
So far none of the complaints that seem to permeate these boards such as broken and taking too much time in combat. ( I pick 1-4 creatures per level and have them on 3X5 cards ready to go and let other players run them on their initiative).
I've actually been using my eidolon the whole time. Not a single summon in 13 levels so far.
So far none of the complaints that seem to permeate these boards such as broken and taking too much time in combat. ( I pick 1-4 creatures per level and have them on 3X5 cards ready to go and let other players run them on their initiative).
This. This is genius.
I pre-roll attacks and damage, and then just read off a list to the GM. Keeps me busy during other peoples turns.
How does this class do at high level? I'm thinking the 12 to 20 range once enemies gain access to greater dispel magic and word spells that can get rid of tons of summoned creatures with one casting.They'll run out of Greater Dispel Magic before you run out of Summon Monster. At higher levels, almost all caster duels come down to preparation. If someone is reading GDM from a phone book of scrolls, you're hosed, but that's true basically no matter what you're playing, unless you have a comparable phone book yourself.
I play at high level a lot. Usually both the players and the NPCs coordinate their dispels and word spells to get rid of creatures or effects once they are able to take advantage. Then you are dealing with spells like unholy aura or the like which may cause creatures entering the aura to have negative effects on them. The creatures summoned generally have weaker saves. Then there is the possibility of dimensional lock being cast which can hammer a summoner.
I play at high level a lot. Usually both the players and the NPCs coordinate their dispels and word spells to get rid of creatures or effects once they are able to take advantage. Then you are dealing with spells like unholy aura or the like which may cause creatures entering the aura to have negative effects on them. The creatures summoned generally have weaker saves. Then there is the possibility of dimensional lock being cast which can hammer a summoner.
Kinda sounds like your group has the magic metagame of Baldurs Gate 2. ^^ If you are playing an AP, the opponents run by the GM normally have a much less complex priority list of spells to cast and really not that many GDM's available to them. If you run them by the standard tactics laid out in the AP itself, of course.
Some nice info on here.
So Master Summoner tends to act as battlefield control at higher levels moving pieces around the board and providing utility to help others do better.
Regular summoner is a fairly powerful offensive weapon with good action economy.
Synthesist starts to lose out due to poor action economy.
UMD seems to be an essential skill for a summoner.
What about key encounters against evil demons and priests that can cast a word spell? Word spells can be cast by quite a few evil outsiders. It seems such spell might neuter a summoner in key encounters.
How about dimensional lock for the master summoner?
Regarding AP's, while I've seen quite a lot of high-level locations where teleportation effects were in effect, I think there was no more than one location in the three AP's I've run to conclusion (one still upcoming, but I've already read up on the last module) where summoning was restricted. And I don't think I've even seen a single caster even dimensional lock on her/his list of memorized/known spells.
Word spells neuter anybody they are intelligently cast upon, not just Summoners.
I play at high level a lot. Usually both the players and the NPCs coordinate their dispels and word spells to get rid of creatures or effects once they are able to take advantage. Then you are dealing with spells like unholy aura or the like which may cause creatures entering the aura to have negative effects on them. The creatures summoned generally have weaker saves. Then there is the possibility of dimensional lock being cast which can hammer a summoner.Kinda sounds like your group has the magic metagame of Baldurs Gate 2. ^^ If you are playing an AP, the opponents run by the GM normally have a much less complex priority list of spells to cast and really not that many GDM's available to them. If you run them by the standard tactics laid out in the AP itself, of course.
I play enemies as highly intelligent and coordinated. I do not follow the tactics in a statblock unless the enemy is simple and incapable of better tactics. If they are capable, then they will use better tactics and coordinate their pieces to inflict maximum pain on the group. You have to assume intelligent enemies are gathering intelligence on the PCs as their primary enemies and will prepare to deal with them accordingly. I play major enemies as though they are PCs that view the actual PC's as NPCs.
A well-organized group develops tactics through role-playing. I as the DM tell them what they can do from a rules standpoint. If a player says "Can we dispel that guy's displacement and then have the warrior attack?
I'll tell the player he can tell the warrior to wait until you cast dispel using the delay action. Then take his full attacks. I expect coordinated tactics to have both a role-play and metagame aspect. Roleplaying to set it up and metagame to facilitate with the rules.
Regarding AP's, while I've seen quite a lot of high-level locations where teleportation effects were in effect, I think there was no more than one location in the three AP's I've run to conclusion (one still upcoming, but I've already read up on the last module) where summoning was restricted. And I don't think I've even seen a single caster even dimensional lock on her/his list of memorized/known spells.
Word spells neuter anybody they are intelligently cast upon, not just Summoners.
Depending on the level of the caster. If you're only a few HD difference, you can survive blinded and deafened. They are harder on summoners. The banishment effect which occurs with a -4 Will save can have a more detrimental effect on the summoner than on most other classes. And the summoners creatures might be lower HD than he is with no magic to bolster saves.
So not only might all your summons be gone. They also suffer the cumulative effects of the word spell itself.
Then again I'm not sure how many groups play with a dedicated healer ready to remove blindness from an entire group. From what I understand from other players posting on this forum a dedicated combat healer is usually not a priority. They do most of their healing post combat. That would lead to a lot of dead players in our campaigns.