Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Herolab treats feint as a combat maneuver, but I don't see any indication that this is correct.
Does anyone have any quote from Jason, SKR, etc saying it is a Combat Maneuver?
I know it is listed in the Combat section, but it details how to feint in the Bluff skill:
Feint: You can use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It is not a combat maneuver. Many newbies mistake it for one, and HeroLab is created by fans who do not work for Paizo and did not write the rules, so they're prone to the same errors as the rest of us.
User HeroLab as a convenience to save time on writing and sorting information. Best to just pay zero attention to how it says things work, though, and just use it as a faster means to do what you already could do by hand.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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HeroLab is a data management tool, not a rules compendium.
True, but it tends to be used as a rules authority. So when it doesn't match actual rules, people tend to gravitate toward it's view of how a rule works.
Until I can find an official response from Paizo stating in no uncertain terms that Feint isn't a CM they won't be changing the status of it.
So can someone quote an actual post by SKR or Jason stating it isn't a Combat Maneuver?
HeroLab is a data management tool, not a rules compendium.True, but it tends to be used as a rules authority. So when it doesn't match actual rules, people tend to gravitate toward it's view of how a rule works.
Until I can find an official response from Paizo stating in no uncertain terms that Feint isn't a CM they won't be changing the status of it.
So can someone quote an actual post by SKR or Jason stating it isn't a Combat Maneuver?
As long as people are okay with being wrong, I guess. HeroLab gets its rules from the same books that we do. I can't see why somebody would logically think it takes precedence over the CRB.
I could create a mostly-accurate and often-references program for PF, but if I start conflicting with the core ruleset, I can't effectively prop up arguments with "prove me wrong."
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I can quote you the page in the Core Rule book, pg 201.
Feint neither goes against CMD nor causes an AoO. Not sure how you could think it is a maneuver.
Sigh
Done that
HeroLab doesn't find that compelling enough since it is listed in combat section under Trip.
So unless you can find a line that says "Feint is not a Combat Maneuver" then it will retain CM status in HeroLab.
I need an official response stating in no uncertain terms "it is not a CM" or they won't budge.
I've linked them this thread, but I doubt it will sway them any more than I've been so far.
"Feint" isn't listed under the Combat Maneuver heading. It has its own heading, "Feint". There is literally zero insinuation whatsoever in the core rulebook that feinting is in any way shape or form a combat maneuver. It is a use of the Bluff skill, period.
Jesus. Hero Lab has been horribly stubborn about a number of issues that they're wrong on. Makes me really question whether or not I should purchase it.
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Have them look at the headings in the Core Rulebook. Groups Headers are in a dark brown. The headers for individual members of a group are in light brown.
Take a look at page 201 of the core rulebook. The headers Overrun, Sunder, Trip are all in light brown. Feint is in dark brown, just like Mounted Combat is, and just as Combat Maneuvers are.
This unambiguously signifies that they are separate from combat maneuvers, unless hero lab is also considering Mounted Combat to be a combat maneuver.
Or that Two Weapon Fighting is. Or Throwing a Splash Weapon.
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I can quote you the page in the Core Rule book, pg 201.
Feint neither goes against CMD nor causes an AoO. Not sure how you could think it is a maneuver.
Sigh
Done that
HeroLab doesn't find that compelling enough since it is listed in combat section under Trip.
So unless you can find a line that says "Feint is not a Combat Maneuver" then it will retain CM status in HeroLab.
I need an official response stating in no uncertain terms "it is not a CM" or they won't budge.
I've linked them this thread, but I doubt it will sway them any more than I've been so far.
HA The Core Rule Book is the Official response. Some 3rd party program has 0 to do with the rules, forget it exists. pg 201, Feint in bold special text, not part of Combat Maneuvers, part of a Skill Check, also found in the Bluff Section. Find someone Not Hero Lab that says its a Combat Maneuver.
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HA The Core Rule Book is the Official response. Some 3rd party program has 0 to do with the rules, forget it exists. pg 201, Feint in bold special text, not part of Combat Maneuvers, part of a Skill Check, also found in the Bluff Section. Find someone Not Hero Lab that says its a Combat Maneuver.I can quote you the page in the Core Rule book, pg 201.
Feint neither goes against CMD nor causes an AoO. Not sure how you could think it is a maneuver.
Sigh
Done that
HeroLab doesn't find that compelling enough since it is listed in combat section under Trip.
So unless you can find a line that says "Feint is not a Combat Maneuver" then it will retain CM status in HeroLab.
I need an official response stating in no uncertain terms "it is not a CM" or they won't budge.
I've linked them this thread, but I doubt it will sway them any more than I've been so far.
Also, if Feint were a combat maneuver, wouldn't it be alphabetized and listed amongst the actual combat maneuvers? It's very clearly its own heading between Combat Maneuvers and Mounted Combat where, not surprisingly, it fits perfectly in the alphabetical list of Special Attacks: Aid Another, Charge, Combat Maneuvers, Feint, Mounted Combat, Throw Splash Weapon, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Wow. Just wow.
No matter how clear-cut a rule issue is, there will always be someone who will insist on his own interpretation as the only truth, regardless of any facts or arguments provided.
Hi everyone,
Colen from Lone Wolf Development here. Thanks for the pointers as to why Feint shouldn't be listed as a combat maneuver! As far as I'm aware, these haven't been brought up to us before, so this is very helpful information to us.
We tend not to make changes without external clarification like this, because we get a lot of bug reports from people who are misinformed about the rules. We'd rather be safe than sorry, since making the wrong change could cause a lot of confusion if people are taking Hero Lab as "canon" as is mentioned above. We've been focusing on more serious bugs for the last few months (such as missing stat bonuses, incorrect errors, etc), so this one hasn't been addressed yet.
Thanks for everyone's feedback! We appreciate your help. :)
Jesus. Hero Lab has been horribly stubborn about a number of issues that they're wrong on. Makes me really question whether or not I should purchase it.
Cheapy, can you give me some examples of these? I can take a look and see what the deal is with these incidents.
Jesus. Hero Lab has been horribly stubborn about a number of issues that they're wrong on. Makes me really question whether or not I should purchase it.
The number of things that are implemented wrong or simply not implemented at all has made me regret the money I've spent on it. And I posted as much on their forums the first week I tried to use it for Pathfinder. I'd say about 40% of my character builds don't work correctly in Hero Lab, and the majority of those aren't due to new content. There's things (like the OP's problem) from the core rules and the earliest books that are implemented wrong that have been wrong for years. The incorrectly implemented rules are especially frustrating right now because my DM has decided to use it for our new campaign, so anything that they do wrong I have to try and avoid using.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Jesus. Hero Lab has been horribly stubborn about a number of issues that they're wrong on. Makes me really question whether or not I should purchase it.
Ok so I feel a little guilty. I started this thread in the hopes of getting an official response from Paizo, not to get HL bashed.
I've got exactly 2 issues that I've had trouble getting a change due to rules interpretation (this one and the INA allowed for AC in PFS)
HL has an inside channel to ask for rules clarifications, and these inquiries are not being responded to promptly. The INA allowed for AC in PFS was sent to Paizo on 3/27 and hasn't yet been answered.
I've got at least 15 characters of mine built with HL, all exactly correct in the rules and functioning perfectly. I'm solidly behind their product and despite this issue, I'd totally recommend it to anyone.
I'd say about 40% of my character builds don't work correctly in Hero Lab.
Send me a PM on here or on HL forums, I've answered a question or two already. I can probably help you work around issues you still have. There isn't any better character sheet tool out there and I doubt anyone will invest in building one (especially Paizo) due to the complexity of the system.
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Feint is not a Combat Maneuver. As far as I have checked in the past, and I use Hero Lab extensively, Hero Lab never makes any claim that it is a Combat Maneuver.
My suspicion is that someone is looking at the alphabetized list of feats, and is seeing Improved Feint in the same area as Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, Improved Bullrush, etc., and is making an assumption. At least they aren't asknig about, "Is Initiative a COmbat Maneuver?" since Improved Initiative is also in the same place alphabetically.
Cheapy: Note, Wolflair wants references before making changes, simply because there are people out there willing to state almost anything if it plays to their preferences/benefit or worldview.
I have never had any problems withthem making updates on anything I have brought up with them as incorrect, once I started to cite my source for the correction.
Some things, of course, are harder to fix than others, or can be caused by incomplete data manipulation, such as Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers being calculated into combat maneuvers with a finesseable weapon on one of the custom output sheets...
Then again, I try to make sure I understand where everything in my attack numbers is coming from, and adds up to.
Now that JJ has responded over in the ask JJ anything thread, hopefully they'll be willing to fix it.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Now that JJ has responded over in the ask JJ anything thread, hopefully they'll be willing to fix it.
After I linked the JJ thread, they did respond that it looks like I'm right and they are investigating how to fix it. Presumably without breaking lots of characters that used the Combat Maneuver Feint options.
I have a paladin in a game who uses HL who insisted that because his printed character sheet didn't say channel energy used 2 lay on hands, that it didn't.
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Jesus. Hero Lab has been horribly stubborn about a number of issues that they're wrong on. Makes me really question whether or not I should purchase it.Cheapy, can you give me some examples of these? I can take a look and see what the deal is with these incidents.
Skeleton Champions are calculated wrong, and despite a number of bug complaints about them, Lone Wolf won't fix it until there's official word otherwise.
The courageous weapon property.Apparently this feint issue.
etc
Basically, it comes down to if there's something wrong about HL, LW won't change it until there's an official clarification. And that really doesn't work given the way the design team gives clarifications. It's always extremely annoying whenever someone says 'I won't budge from my stance until the design team personally answers my question', and this philosophy seems to have a major amount of support in the LW developers who develop these options.
It's not even that the program is wrong, so much as the attitude that's taken to bug reports about the application being wrong.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Skeleton Champions are calculated wrong
The courageous weapon property.
Out of curiosity, I looked at these.
Skeletal Champion has two problems. One it calculates the CR based on Bestiary rules, but Paizo didn't use Bestiary rules themselves and listed at CR 2 instead of CR 1. Which is correct? Rules or Stat block. In those cases, usually rules (which HL uses) is correct. Second is the racial HD grants Class Skills, which it currently isn't doing. I filed a bug today on this.
Courageous weapon property works properly as of today. I don't know if it was fixed. It posts a "situational" that the player can add when relevant.
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Basically, it comes down to if there's something wrong about HL, LW won't change it until there's an official clarification. And that really doesn't work given the way the design team gives clarifications. It's always extremely annoying whenever someone says 'I won't budge from my stance until the design team personally answers my question', and this philosophy seems to have a major amount of support in the LW developers who develop these options.
It's not even that the program is wrong, so much as the attitude that's taken to bug reports about the application being wrong.
Thanks for flagging the attitude issue! I was completely unaware of this, having been up to my eyeballs on everything for Realm Works. As the guy at the top, this is ultimately my fault, so please accept my apologies. I'm going to pursue this issue internally and make sure that we put in the necessary corrections on attitude.
Please note, however, that we're in a difficult spot with regards to determining what's "right" in many cases. The rules continue to become more and more complicated. As you point out, the way the design team provides clarifications is often less than ideal. We do our best to reason through what the "right" interpretation is, and we get it right the vast majority of times. But there are cases where the rules are simply unclear, or we inadvertently overlook an important detail, or Paizo even chooses not to follow its own published rules. In that middle case, it sounds like we need to be more responsive and/or less attached to our interpretation. In the other cases, though, we're left in a bind with no good solution. So we don't really have a choice in those cases other than to wait for an official ruling and implement the rules based on the best interpretation we can come up with.
Please give us the chance to institute some corrections on our end and then let me know if you don't see an improvement in the upcoming weeks.
Thanks!
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I know this is a little OT, but...
There isn't any better character sheet tool out there and I doubt anyone will invest in building one
I've been using PCGen since inception, for 3.0, 3.5 and now 3.75. The data files are not always up-to-date, but the best thing about PCGen is, you can write or modify the data-files yourself with a little work.
The only issue I have with HL is that people do try to use it as part of their rules argument.
The issue arises when people do not bother actually reading the rules and instead just go with whatever HL says...you should always double check with the actual rules in the ACTUAL rule BOOK or the paizo site.
I don't use HL personally (I've written my own PF character generator using Excel...not as pretty as HL but works fine) but a few of the people I game with regularly have used it and have no complaints (most of the time) since they always go by the book after they actually use HL to make their character.
about 2 years since the last post.