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So flipping through the PFS guide, I noticed something that caught my eye. In the character building part in Languages it mentions at the very end of the section:
Tian characters receive the languages Tien and Common for free.
To clarify, does this mean only Tien ethnicity humans, as with Varisian, Kelish, etc? Or does it apply to any character from Tian-Xia? I ask this only because it was mentioned so specifically, apart from any other regional language.
Example: Should a Aasimar from Tianjing know Tien automatically, or need to take it as one of their bonus languages/linguistics points?
Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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Tien humans only get Tien as a language. Only humans get their regional language, as per guide, even if your character's background is in said region. You would need Linguistics or to take it as a bonus language.
Your race and class selection impact what languages
you start with. All characters gain Common as a free
language. You gain free languages granted by your race,
ethnicity (for humans), and class (e.g., Druidic for druids).
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To clarify a bit: The various non-human races all get their racial language (plus common) as their starting language. Humans don't have a "racial" language, but they do have ethnicities, so they get their ethnic language as their starting language.
Please check Kitsune, and tell me exactly what languages theyu get as starting languages.
In either source for them, Common is not listed as a starting language, although they list different starting languages.
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In either source for them, Common is not listed as a starting language, although they list different starting languages.
However, there is an extra PFS rule that every PFS character gets Common as a bonus language for free, if not granted by race, such as Kitsune, Tengu and Goblins.
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In either source for them, Common is not listed as a starting language, although they list different starting languages.However, there is an extra PFS rule that every PFS character gets Common as a bonus language for free, if not granted by race, such as Kitsune, Tengu and Goblins.
This plus Advanced Race guide lists there starting languages as Common and Sylvan.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I know this is an old post, but I feel it hasn't really been answered. The Organized Play Guide states all races start with Common, gain their racial language for free (ethnic language for humans), and any granted by class (such as Druidic). Then it specifically states that Tian Characters gain Common and Tien for free. Why state this specifically if you already stated that they get their ethnic language. It doesn't ssay Tian humans, it says Tian characters, which should include any character from a Tian region, regardless of race.
Several available races have different starting languages listed in various legal sourcebooks that they appear in. For example some of the races in the Dragon Empires sourcebook don't start with common.
The character will have the starting languages of the entry that you use to meet the Additional Resources requirements to use them.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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All the races in the ARG get Commen as well as their own racial language. It is expected that player would want to play the races within, hence the production of the book. This and the Guide supersedes previous entries that only gave the one language for the race.
I will look at the book to make sure, but I believe this is the case.
So then a human character from Minkai would start with Minkaian, Tien, and Common?
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So then a human character from Minkai would start with Minkaian, Tien, and Common?Assuming you were actually using the Tian-Min ethnicity from the Dragon Empires Gazetteer (which requires owning said book, obviously), then yes.
This is incorrect. The Guide clearly states that Tian characters (which would include Tian-Min) begin with Common and Tien.
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Having Tian characters start with Tien and Common prevents problems like having a character from Minkai that only speaks Tien and Minkaian.
I suppose that makes sense for mechanical purposes, even if it makes utterly no sense for flavor reasons. Yeah I know you can get it if you invest points in linguistics and all that jazz, but still...
"Hello, I am Tanaka, a ninja from Minkai. Pleased to meet another Minkaian here in the foreign city of Absalom!"
*other Minkaian speaks to Tanaka at length in Minkaian*
"Sorry, please speak in Tien. I do not understand that language."
"What."
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Yes. Via the Linguistics skill. Not as a free starting language.
As I've already stated, and as is printed in the GtOP, Tian characters (whether they be Tian-Dan, Tian-Hwan, Tian-whatever) get Tien as a free language, in addition to Common. They do not get Hwan, or Minkaian, or any other language. They get Tien and Common. That's it. If they have an Int of 12 or higher, or spend a point in Linguistics, then they may start play knowing additional languages.
I asked earlier where Minkaian was listed as a language in the Inner Sea World Guide, because...
you may select bonus languages from those listed in your race’s entry in the Core Rulebook and the Modern Human Languages list (The Inner Sea World Guide 251)
...you'll notice the subtle absence of any other source for starting languages. If the GtOP included the Dragon Empires Primer as a sourcebook for free languages, like it does with the Inner Sea World Guide, then I'd have no argument. But it doesn't, so I do.
I see this as a fairly straight forward issue. If you're Tian, there are rules for what languages you start with. If you're not, there are rules for what languages you start with. There is no need to make up your own rules.
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I asked earlier where Minkaian was listed as a language in the Inner Sea World Guide, because...
you may select bonus languages from those listed in your race’s entry in the Core Rulebook and the Modern Human Languages list (The Inner Sea World Guide 251)...you'll notice the subtle absence of any other source for starting languages. If the GtOP included the Dragon Empires Primer as a sourcebook for free languages, like it does with the Inner Sea World Guide, then I'd have no argument. But it doesn't, so I do.
Here's the quote again with a few additional sentences at the beginning.
All characters gain Common as a free language. You gain free languages granted by your race, ethnicity (for humans), and class (e.g., Druidic for druids). If you have a high Intelligence modifier, you may select bonus languages from those listed in your race’s entry in the Core Rulebook and the Modern Human Languages list (The Inner Sea World Guide 251).
Interestingly, the modifier for using the ISWG is there for Bonus Languages, but it is *not* there for free starting languages. So my interpretation is that a human from Minkai would start with Minkaian, Tien, and Common as their free languages, but oddly enough, could not buy Hwan as a bonus language, but would have to learn it using Linguistics.
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My reading of the language rules for PFS is thus:
1). All PCs begin play with their starting racial languages. Elves get common and elven, gnomes get common and gnome, humans get common.
2). If you are human (and only human), you also add your ethnic language to your starting languages. Shoanti humans get shoanti, kellid humans get hallit, ect.
3). If your PC is from anywhere in Tian-Xia, add tien to your starting languages. This applies to PCs of any race.
4). Add Int bonus from appropriate list as applicable.
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Sorry to revive this debate, but I'm still not entirely clear on this. So there's still some debate about what languages humans of Tien ethnicities get, but let me ask the easier question:
Is everyone here assuming that the statement "Tian characters receive the languages Tien and Common for free" from the Guide to Organized Play is only about humans of Tien ethnicities? ie The phrase "Tian characters" doesn't refer to members of other races who are from Tian Xia?
I've got an ethnically Tien-Min Angelkin Aasimar from the nation of Jinin in Tian Xia, and I'm trying to figure out which languages he should start with. I know he gets Common and Celestial for being Aasimar. Since he has 12 int, and he's from a primarily Elven nation, I gave him Elven as his bonus language from that.
He's also got the Truthspeaker alternate racial trait, which grants two languages for each rank in Linguistics, so I put a rank in that to be able to start with the other languages commonly spoken in his home country, which are Samsaran and Tien. But if any PC from Tian Xia gets Tien for free, I'd like to give him Minkaian as the second language from the Linguistics rank, and just get Tien for free.
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So it sounds like we're agreed that my aasimar gets Tien as a bonus language because he was born and grew up on that continent. So just one rank in Linguistics will be enough for me to get all the languages he's supposed to speak because of his background (Tien, Elven, Samsaran, and Minkaian), plus the two languages his race starts with which actually make no sense for the character (Common, Celestial).
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This issue, while pretty minor, has come up with the Tabletop Giant character generator we are creating, and getting an official response on it would really help.
From a functional perspective, it really does not make sense that "everyone" would be able to get Tien, simply by claiming they are from Tian, regardless of their race and ethnicity. If we implement it the way this thread seems to be leaning, then everyone - from cave wight half-orcs, to shadowy wayangs, to - EVERYONE - can say "I'm from Tian!" in a non-binding RP sense and thus pick up a free language. Even Ulfen Ethnicity humans could do it - everyone could do it. And that just doesn't make sense.
From a programmatic perspective, I'd have to put up a checkbox on the race selection page which asks "Are you from Tian?", and anyone who checks it automatically gets Tien as a free language, and checking it has no repercussions on other selections. Who *wouldn't* check the box, given that?
Here is how my brain wants to interpret this line:
"Tian characters receive the languages Tien and Common for free."
Okay - great. But, what is a "Tian character"? To me, a "Tian character" is a character that has chosen the Tien ethnicity, and only a character who has chosen the Tien ethnicity. In this sense, the line in the Guide is highly redundant, unnecessary, and is likely a mistake.
I look forward to hearing a final say on this one and will be happy to implement it whichever way it is decided.
Thanks!
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This issue, while pretty minor, has come up with the Tabletop Giant character generator we are creating, and getting an official response on it would really help.
From a functional perspective, it really does not make sense that "everyone" would be able to get Tien, simply by claiming they are from Tian, regardless of their race and ethnicity. If we implement it the way this thread seems to be leaning, then everyone - from cave wight half-orcs, to shadowy wayangs, to - EVERYONE - can say "I'm from Tian!" in a non-binding RP sense and thus pick up a free language. Even Ulfen Ethnicity humans could do it - everyone could do it. And that just doesn't make sense.
From a programmatic perspective, I'd have to put up a checkbox on the race selection page which asks "Are you from Tian?", and anyone who checks it automatically gets Tien as a free language, and checking it has no repercussions on other selections. Who *wouldn't* check the box, given that?
Here is how my brain wants to interpret this line:
"Tian characters receive the languages Tien and Common for free."
Okay - great. But, what is a "Tian character"? To me, a "Tian character" is a character that has chosen the Tien ethnicity, and only a character who has chosen the Tien ethnicity. In this sense, the line in the Guide is highly redundant, unnecessary, and is likely a mistake.
I look forward to hearing a final say on this one and will be happy to implement it whichever way it is decided.
Thanks!
Tabletop Giant,
The misconception is that Tian is not an ethnicity any more than Mwangi is. Every country there has it's own "ethnicity" in it's own right.
While the people of the Inner Sea region often refer to Tians as members of a single ethnicity, they do so partially out of ignorance. In fact, there are seven distinct human ethnicities native to the Dragon Empires, all of whom share certain outlooks on life and philosophy—the concept of honor, the importance of ancestry, and great respect for dragons, for example. The people of Tian Xia symbolize these shared beliefs and convictions by appending the word “Tian” itself to their ethnicity, but in many more ways, these seven groups are themselves as diverse as any grouping of various races.
What about non-human characters that have Regional Traits from Tian-Xia? I have a Halfling Fighter/Hunter that has the Hongal Bloodrider trait, an Aasimar Martial Artist with the Quain Martial Artist trait, or a Kitsune "Face" character with Altruistic Diplomat. All of these, plus several more have backgrounds from Tian-Xia, but aren't human. I believe there was an official ruling that ALL 'characters' from Tian-Xia get Tien, while all humans get the regional dialect of their chosen Tian ethnicity; However my search-fu at work is limited...
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What about non-human characters that have Regional Traits from Tian-Xia?
Regional traits seem fine to me because choosing one *does* have a repercussion; you lose a trait selection. Meaning, you only have so many trait choices - everyone gets two (or four if you're one of those Additional Traits fans), and taking a Regional Trait burns one of those slots up. So, a player 'loses' something for the transaction.
In contrast, this declaration of "I am Tien" - made regardless of race and ethnicity selection - does not use up any slot and is very much "free". It is essentially a Role-Playing declaration and not a component of the player character data structure, and by making this declaration you are able to procure a tangible benefit - a new language that you otherwise wouldn't be able to speak.
It is also inconsistent as it is *only* Tien that are called out. You mentioned Mwangi Expanse; if the interpretation of this line is that everyone who declares themselves to be from Tien (regardless of race/ethnicity) gets to speak Tian - then why can't people do the same for Mwangi and get to speak Polyglot? Why not for any given region? The fact that only this one region and one language is mentioned feels like a red flag.
If there is an official ruling I'd love to see it - I'd be happy to settle in either direction, so long as there is a firm answer. I did look before posting in this thread and was not able to find one, but I've missed things before. If anyone has a link, that'd be awesome.
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Any race could be from Tian-Xia, but any Human from there should be of one of the seven Tian ethnicities to benefit from the bonus language. Tien isn't so much an ethnic language as it is "common" in Tian-Xia.
As to your question of the Mwangi Expanse, a look into Humans of Golarion gives us this:
All four Mwangi ethnicities have dark skin and dark hair, though significant variations between the four groups exist.
In their homelands, travel and contact between tribes are common, and most have adopted a trade language called Polyglot that combines words from different dialects and allows speakers to communicate with Mwangi from across the great tracts of the Mwangi Expanse.
This shows that the Mwangi is 4 distinct ethnicities, all 4 of which use Polyglot as their ethnic language. Polyglot isn't so much a single language, but a mesh of the tribal tongues of all 4 ethnicities.
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Also, please note, there is at least one source for Kitsune, for example, which does NOT include Common, which is part of what birthed this whole thread.
Well, but that particular issue has been answered as the Guide to Organize Play is pretty explicit that all characters receive Common no matter what. It's the '"Tian characters receive the languages Tien and Common for free."' business that's logically irksome and needs clarification.
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My two coppers...is..James is right. If a character is human from Minkai and built with the Dragon Empires Gazetteer then the rules from Additional Resources apply.
So they get Tien, Minkaian and Common in addition to any bonus languages from a high INT or ranks in Linguistics.
For Kitsune this:
Kitsune from Tian Xia built using the Dragon Empires Primer/Gazetteer know Common, Tien, and Senzar.
Kitsune from Tian Xia built using the Advanced Race Guide know Common, Tien, and Sylvan.
Really, the only difference is the Sylvan/Senzar switch.
Mike