| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Once you’re done laughing (poor Clint), I would like to ask a couple of questions:
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
DAT ASS[/mockingbird]
Is it not also true through that women do move (and even stand) differently than men?
Yes, to a point. It's not to the extremes some go to justify the lolposes the Hawkeye Initiative often pokes fun at, but there are some differences that can turn up. But there's also a lot of overlap.
I will say this, nothing grates quite like seeing your supposedly badassed professional female warrior type doing an over-the-top "girly" run in a videogame.
Would bringing more female artists into the comics industry improve the situation?
Yes, to a point. Artists of both genders can carry baggage handed down through both the medium and the places they're coming from, so it's not a cure-all. And some female artists might bring their own new oversexualizations to the table.
But honestly, having more female professionals in the industry can only help in the long run, because there is a very unhealthy climate with some of the boy's club crap going on now(one specific example that leaps to mind is that blow-up from whoever draws for Ex Machina).
And female artists don't slack in the fanservice department either(sup Amanda Connor!), but that's not a bad thing, because:
No.
Or rather, they shouldn't be oversexualized any more than the dudes.
Making the medium sexless is no way to go. Sexuality is not something to treat like a bogeyman or a minefield.
Fanservice is good. It's okay to like fanservice.
It's when there's nothing but fanservice that things go bad. It's when sexuality is pushed as the primary or only thing that defines certain characters that the problems start.
To put it in Paizo terms, there is nothing wrong with Seoni or Alahazra. But if Pathfinder had only Seoni and Alahazra in different colors to represent female characters, that would be overdoing it. But they have Seelah, Kyra, Reiko and so forth as well. And those aren't sexless characters! But they're not as defined by it upfront either. The problem with comics is that they are severely lacking in terms of Seelahs and Kyras, and whenever they do have them they quickly do everything they can to turn them into Seonis when they already have Seonis. Meanwhile, all of the dudes are Harsks.
And when violence against women gets fetishized, @#$% gets creepy yo. DC stepped in that in a big way this past decade. Show a female superwhatever taking hits just like the guys, but for heaven's sake don't kink it up.
And when the fanservice is being crafted with only a narrow demographic in mind, it feels exclusive. Going back to the bit about how female characters shouldn't be sexualized any more than the males: A common defense is that male superheroes are just as sexualized as the females already. That they're fanservice to an equal degree.
That doesn't really fly, and the why of that has been picked at and apart and examined so often that we should all know it by heart at this point. That's another place where more female artists(and writers(and editors)) would help. Fanservice for women made by women would probably be a more reliable thing to look at for reference rather than just continuing to push dudes built like Mack trucks sheathed in spandex as what women want.
But honestly, mainstream comics just have a lot of growing up to do. It sometimes feels like it's actually done some backsliding* since the early Vertigo boom. If they stop treating their female readership like some sort of incomprehensible "other", stop with the "fake-fangirl" crap, and maybe try to be a little less creepy in some areas, they wouldn't be taking such a beating over this these days.
[/angryfanofseveralfemalecharactersthathavebeenthrownunderthebus]
*Coinciding with the rise of a younger generation of fans to the EIC seats. I don't want to read too much into that, but sometimes it does feel like the guys who wrote letters demanding that so-and-so was killed off because they were lame or whatevs are now running the joint.
edit-Hot damn I guess it's been a while since I've vented about comics.
I will say this, nothing grates quite like seeing your supposedly badassed professional female warrior type doing an over-the-top "girly" run in a videogame.
Do you remember the "bounce" (which caused a "breast bounce") that female elves do in World of Warcraft as a random part of their idle animation?
This annoyed my wife mightily. Of course, she then confuses the issue by saying that she would have no problem with it as a player controlled emote. :\
And female artists don't slack in the fanservice department either(sup Amanda Connor!), but that's not a bad thing, because:
This is true. In fact, IMHO, women actually make the BEST pin-up artists. :)
It's when there's nothing but fanservice that things go bad. It's when sexuality is pushed as the primary or only thing that defines certain characters that the problems start.
Actually, your own Paizo examples also show how to find a good balance. Alahazra, Amiri, Freya, and Seoni are much more then pin-up girls.
(Counterwise, just because a character is not normally "fanservice" doesn't mean that they can't ...)
And when the fanservice is being crafted with only a narrow demographic in mind, it feels exclusive.
... and ...
That doesn't really fly, and the why of that has been picked at and apart and examined so often that we should all know it by heart at this point. That's another place where more female artists(and writers(and editors)) would help. Fanservice for women made by women would probably be a more reliable thing to look at for reference rather than just continuing to push dudes built like Mack trucks sheathed in spandex as what women want.
You know, even from comic publisher's/artist's own point of view – “smoking hawt” runs the gambit of Keira Knightley to Christina Hendricks to Ashley Graham.
[/angryfanofseveralfemalecharactersthathavebeenthrownunderthebus]
Oh?
|
|
Do you remember the "bounce" (which caused a "breast bounce") that female elves do in World of Warcraft as a random part of their idle animation?
This annoyed my wife mightily. Of course, she then confuses the issue by saying that she would have no problem with it as a player controlled emote. :\
I think I can see where she's coming from with that. If it was something the player of those characters had a choice in, it wouldn't feel like something that was forced on them by default. That way one player could decide "No, my warrior woman wears proper support" while another is free to say "Imma play Mai Shiranui". There might also be an element of just not wanting to be in that "mode" 24/7.
Actually, your own Paizo examples also show how to find a good balance. Alahazra, Amiri, Freya, and Seoni are much more then pin-up girls.
(Counterwise, just because a character is not normally "fanservice" doesn't mean that they can't ...)
Yep, that's what I meant in Seoni and Alahazra not being bad characters and Seelah and Kyra not being sexless characters.
And I still support KyraXMerisiel. Because someone has to keep the girl out of trouble.
Oh?
Man, if I started I'd be here all night. It's been a slow burn of crap buildup(on more than just sexism) over a long time with both Marvel and DC taking turns, though DC really seemed to be working at it as if there was an Xbox Live Achievement for 100% completion at alienating female readers.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Weregeek comic has been doing a lot on this lately.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3
Example 4
Example 5
Example 6
Example 7
Although to be fair to DC, Power Girl's costume has managed to stay intact for two straight issues of World's Finest which I think is a new record. Seriously, how do you take a character with a boob window in her costume and make her more fanservicey?! All they needed to complete things was tentacles! [/rant]
Although to be fair to DC, Power Girl's costume has managed to stay intact for two straight issues of World's Finest which I think is a new record. Seriously, how do you take a character with a boob window in her costume and make her more fanservicey?! All they needed to complete things was tentacles! [/rant]
I'm just glad we got Power Girl and Huntress back and Voodoo's book went the way of the less-adaptable species. And, to keep the "to be fair" angle, they've been pretty consistent with showing that her costumes have been getting more and more resilient as the folks at Starr keep working on increasing the durability of the things. I don't know why they couldn't have done that in-history for the character and just had her and Helena reference it a-la "Remember when these things were still prototypes?" conversations, but there you go.
As to the tentacles... well... I'm sure if we wait long enough... :(
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
DAT ASS[/mockingbird]
Is it not also true through that women do move (and even stand) differently than men? Yes, to a point. It's not to the extremes some go to justify the lolposes the Hawkeye Initiative often pokes fun at, but there are some differences that can turn up. But there's also a lot of overlap.
I will say this, nothing grates quite like seeing your supposedly badassed professional female warrior type doing an over-the-top "girly" run in a videogame.
Would bringing more female artists into the comics industry improve the situation? Yes, to a point. Artists of both genders can carry baggage handed down through both the medium and the places they're coming from, so it's not a cure-all. And some female artists might bring their own new oversexualizations to the table.
But honestly, having more female professionals in the industry can only help in the long run, because there is a very unhealthy climate with some of the boy's club crap going on now(one specific example that leaps to mind is that blow-up from whoever draws for Ex Machina).
And female artists don't slack in the fanservice department either(sup Amanda Connor!), but that's not a bad thing, because:
No.
Or rather, they shouldn't be oversexualized any more than the dudes.
Making the medium sexless is no way to go. Sexuality is not something to treat like a bogeyman or a minefield.
Fanservice is good. It's okay to like fanservice.
It's when there's nothing but fanservice that things go bad. It's when sexuality is pushed as the primary or only thing that defines certain characters that the problems start.
To put it in Paizo terms, there is nothing wrong with Seoni or Alahazra. But if Pathfinder had only Seoni and Alahazra in different colors to represent female characters, that would be overdoing it. But they have Seelah, Kyra, Reiko and...
I wants my cheesecake. But dessert should not be the only meal of the day.
Do you remember the "bounce" (which caused a "breast bounce") that female elves do in World of Warcraft as a random part of their idle animation?
This annoyed my wife mightily. Of course, she then confuses the issue by saying that she would have no problem with it as a player controlled emote. :\
I think I can see where she's coming from with that. If it was something the player of those characters had a choice in, it wouldn't feel like something that was forced on them by default. That way one player could decide "No, my warrior woman wears proper support" while another is free to say "Imma play Mai Shiranui". There might also be an element of just not wanting to be in that "mode" 24/7.
Actually, your own Paizo examples also show how to find a good balance. Alahazra, Amiri, Freya, and Seoni are much more then pin-up girls.
(Counterwise, just because a character is not normally "fanservice" doesn't mean that they can't ...)
Yep, that's what I meant in Seoni and Alahazra not being bad characters and Seelah and Kyra not being sexless characters.
And I still support KyraXMerisiel. Because someone has to keep the girl out of trouble.
Oh?Man, if I started I'd be here all night. It's been a slow burn of crap buildup(on more than just sexism) over a long time with both Marvel and DC taking turns, though DC really seemed to be working at it as if there was an Xbox Live Achievement for 100% completion at alienating female readers.
Interesting that you should mention Mai.
I have loved Mai since she first came out. KOF 94 was the first fighting game I truly fell in love with. I can't believe it turns twenty next year.
But part of what makes Mai Mai is that she was unique in the SNK world. There were tons of other female characters- my favorite is Vice, who isn't cheesecakey at all unless you get into dojinshi or one of her supers in the most recent KOF. That said my second favorite is Shermie, who..well..yeah. It's important to have a spectrum.
Although to be fair to DC, Power Girl's costume has managed to stay intact for two straight issues of World's Finest which I think is a new record. Seriously, how do you take a character with a boob window in her costume and make her more fanservicey?! All they needed to complete things was tentacles! [/rant]I'm just glad we got Power Girl and Huntress back and Voodoo's book went the way of the less-adaptable species. And, to keep the "to be fair" angle, they've been pretty consistent with showing that her costumes have been getting more and more resilient as the folks at Starr keep working on increasing the durability of the things. I don't know why they couldn't have done that in-history for the character and just had her and Helena reference it a-la "Remember when these things were still prototypes?" conversations, but there you go.
As to the tentacles... well... I'm sure if we wait long enough... :(
I'm sorry we disagree on so many things here, jemstone. My love for Power Girl remains unshakeable. She is also one of my wife's favorite characters.
I'm sorry we disagree on so many things here, jemstone. My love for Power Girl remains unshakeable. She is also one of my wife's favorite characters.
Disagree how, exactly? I have been the loudest voice in my comic store regarding the treatment of PG before World's Finest and Earth 2 hit. I love me some Kara Zor-L (not to be confused with Kara Zor-El), always have, always will. I'm not entirely happy with the treatment she's gotten in DCn52 because for a goodly part of her appearances she's been something of a caricature of her old self, but I will always remain firm in my conviction that trading her out for Voodoo was like trading in an Aston Martin for a Hyundai. Hyundai's are good cars, sure, but they're a completely different class from the AM.
I'm just saying I think they could have given us an en-media-res reference to how tissue-paper her costumes "used to be" before Starr Enterprises got their act together and got her some Unobtanium Leotards, is all. ;)
(And for completion's sake, I have to say I've bought the entire DC Ami-comi line so far just so I could know what was what when the PG issue finally hit.)
As to the tentacles ref... that was more to how the book's been getting written, lately, than it was to anything related to PG. Consider, though, that I am on the record as saying that both World's Finest and Earth 2 both gave us a better story in their first 3 issues than Justice League did in 14.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm sorry we disagree on so many things here, jemstone. My love for Power Girl remains unshakeable. She is also one of my wife's favorite characters.Disagree how, exactly? I have been the loudest voice in my comic store regarding the treatment of PG before World's Finest and Earth 2 hit. I love me some Kara Zor-L (not to be confused with Kara Zor-El), always have, always will. I'm not entirely happy with the treatment she's gotten in DCn52 because for a goodly part of her appearances she's been something of a caricature of her old self, but I will always remain firm in my conviction that trading her out for Voodoo was like trading in an Aston Martin for a Hyundai. Hyundai's are good cars, sure, but they're a completely different class from the AM.
I'm just saying I think they could have given us an en-media-res reference to how tissue-paper her costumes "used to be" before Starr Enterprises got their act together and got her some Unobtanium Leotards, is all. ;)
(And for completion's sake, I have to say I've bought the entire DC Ami-comi line so far just so I could know what was what when the PG issue finally hit.)
As to the tentacles ref... that was more to how the book's been getting written, lately, than it was to anything related to PG. Consider, though, that I am on the record as saying that both World's Finest and Earth 2 both gave us a better story in their first 3 issues than Justice League did in 14.
In that case I owe you a sincere apology- I thought you were against PG or didn't like her in some way. I love her for both lecherous and non lecherous reasons. And I'm a big fan of ami-comi too. I also love tentacles, where I believe our mileage varies.
In that case I owe you a sincere apology- I thought you were against PG or didn't like her in some way. I love her for both lecherous and non lecherous reasons. And I'm a big fan of ami-comi too. I also love tentacles, where I believe our mileage varies.
No worries, good sir.
I've always been a fan of PG, ever since she was Supergirl, the one the only accept no imitations. I've stuck by her through being cloned by a mad scientist a zillion times (cloned into itty bitty energy-zapping super-wasp type clones, even), watched her go from Linda Lee to Linda Danvers to Karen Star, watched her get retconned to a descendent of Arion - High Mage of Atlantis, City of the Golden Gate, and railed against her getting marginalized at every turn. I wasn't so sure about the "window" on the costume, but it grew on me and not because of heh-heh-boobs, but because of the fact that she just kept getting written so well for such an under-appreciated character. The last few issues of her previous, pre-DCn52 book were amazing, especially when she used super hearing to triangulate the location of the villain, did enormous mathematical calculations on the fly to know how large a rock (And how hard!) to throw into the ocean to cause precisely the right kind of tsunami... all that. And I was sad when it went away.
So, yeah. Safe to say I'm a PG fan.
On the topic of the Hawkeye Initiative, though... I have to say I have saved to my hard drive the picture my friend Jenn did of Hawkeye aping an Exalted cover. It's brilliant, I tells ya. Brilliant!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But part of what makes Mai Mai is that she was unique in the SNK world. There were tons of other female characters- my favorite is Vice, who isn't cheesecakey at all unless you get into dojinshi or one of her supers in the most recent KOF. That said my second favorite is Shermie, who..well..yeah. It's important to have a spectrum.
Yeah, right there with you on that. :)
<_<
>_>
Mine was King.
But part of what makes Mai Mai is that she was unique in the SNK world. There were tons of other female characters- my favorite is Vice, who isn't cheesecakey at all unless you get into dojinshi or one of her supers in the most recent KOF. That said my second favorite is Shermie, who..well..yeah. It's important to have a spectrum.Yeah, right there with you on that. :)
<_<
>_>
Mine was King.
King is one of my all time favorites, in my top 5. She's actually *is* my number 5 right behind Mai. I will never forget that you had to reveal she was a girl in order to get a better ending in AoF.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Did she and Ryo ever get hitched? When I last touched base with the series, they seemed to be getting pushed hard in that direction.
Also, Good Lord it does not feel right to realize that KoF is about to turn 20. Man...
Great. Now I have to look up Terry Bogard Engrish on YouTube.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
More awesome swapped drawings:
Is it not also true through that women do move (and even stand) differently than men?
While they do--the center of gravity is in a different place amongst other things--they do not move or stand like poses in comic and pulp art. The differences in male and female physiology do not account for the kind of artwork that is being mocked.
A long time ago, some girls took pictures of themselves in poses of women drawn in comic books to show how absolutely uncomfortable if not physically impossible most of those poses are.
Bonus: look at many fight scenes in comics. Think about how people move when they fight. And yet many women in comic fight scenes are in fact drawn posed and not as if one were capturing a moment of a fight, mid motion.
Would bringing more female artists into the comics industry improve the situation?
Probably. Here's an interesting statistic I just read at the BBC News website: most art schools have a 50/50 split between male and female students. But most comic artists are men. Food for thought.
I'm not suggesting only men are hired, btw,I'm more thinking about why working as a comic artist may look unattractive to a female professional illustrator.
Should female characters not be sexualized. The popularity of the Cosplay of these very same Fanservice-y characters makes this question relevent.
Mikaze covered this very well. It's about variety and making sure women are not ONLY portrayed as sexualized beings and NOTHING else. And often to such an extreme, exaggerated extent it's hard to imagine the character's role (looking at images alone) to be anything but eye candy.
I'll add--I think the human form is very beautiful. Just a simple drawing of a nude done in a figure drawing class can be lovely. In fact I think they are often lovelier--and sexier, sometimes--than comic art because it is a capture of what the human form really looks like. Comic and pulp art is often so twisted and exaggerated that it looks hideous and unnatural to me. It becomes less a celebration of the human, and female in particular, body and more a celebration of only certain body parts (usually butt and boobs), where all other body parts (including the face, where we see personality) are deemphasized or turned away. The art is not designed to even say, "look at this beautiful, sexy woman," it is designed to say, "look, a butt. If you read this, you will see more butts."
Now, if the book was "Butt Magazine," that might make sense. And the world has plenty of room for Butt Magazines and the like and well it should, even. But if the book (or game) is trying to pass itself off as a story about real human characters, and perhaps strong heroic human characters, but it LOOKS like Butt Magazine, something's a bit off.
Also, there's psychological studies that show--women tend to relate TO women they see in images. If they see an image of a woman they cannot possibly relate to, or they feel uncomfortable when they try to relate to that image, they will not buy the thing featuring the image. So if they look at a comic book cover and see, "Oh god, she's a victim, or I could never look like that, or what the hell is she wearing," or whatever, they won't buy it.
Now, yes, I know that artwork isn't designed to attract women, it's designed to attract heterosexual males. But here's the thing. Heterosexual males will also buy comic books with the Incredible Hulk smashing walls on the cover, or Superman flying on the cover, or Batman looking grim and broody on the cover. And for that matter, they will probably buy a comic book with a superheroine on it even if she isn't twisted into a figure 8 so you can see only her ass and tits prominently. She can even be pretty and scantily clad, she just doesn't have to look utterly compromised. While sex may sell, it is not the only thing that sells and it does not only have to take one very specific outdated and alienating form of "sex."
Finally: let me make absolutely clear: I really love boobies. I love to look at them. They are beautiful, wonderful things, and I am glad that I and around 52% of the population have them. Hiding them away from the worst of the world would make me very sad. I do not believe for an instant the only alternative to the art that is being protested to is a world of women clad in muumuus and baggy cardigans, sitting primly at a desk.
But I would like to see more artwork that celebrates the female--AND MALE--form in its wonderful, gorgeous real life diversity as a whole, and not just for sex appeal but for a deeper beauty as well. And I would like to be assured that this artwork not only depicts people easy to admire for their looks (they are our fantasy heroes after all) but that it shows true strength, that it promises indeed that I am not about to read Butt Magazine, but a story about an amazing hero I want to grow up to be like--and maybe believe that I can.
AND on a slightly separate end note:
I posted links to some of these in another thread, but it's worth bringing up again.
This link takes you to a Google Image search, wherein the majority of the images you see are of real, bona fide Olympian athletes. These are our healthiest, fittest, and finest. Interesting stuff. I'd like to see more of this diversity in our artwork.
I don't think Starfox would really care, but.....
I don't think Starfox would really care, but.....
Are you kidding? He'd WORK it.
Now, yes, I know that artwork isn't designed to attract women, it's designed to attract heterosexual males.
Ah, but my own point about the rise of "Cosplay" would certainly imply that there are a fare number of women comic-book fans also. :)
And for that matter, they will probably buy a comic book with a superheroine on it even if she isn't twisted into a figure 8 so you can see only her ass and t&@# prominently. She can even be pretty and scantily clad, she just doesn't have to look utterly compromised.
Or
Fanservice is good. It's okay to like fanservice.
So, if I understand correctly, while males are the majority of the comic-book audience, that is no reason to "alienate" (current and/or potential) female fans.
|
|
Bonus: look at many fight scenes in comics. Think about how people move when they fight. And yet many women in comic fight scenes are in fact drawn posed and not as if one were capturing a moment of a fight, mid motion.
This reminds me of Ed Brubaker's run on Catwoman when he was paired with Darwyn Cooke and Cameron Stewart, both artists who drew in a "cartoony" style that many people dismissed as childish(and thus wound up missing on some good comics that were more mature than most of what was beind drawn in a "gritty, realistic" style at the time). Both Cooke and Stewart tended to do their action sequences with an animator's eye*. They could do some awesome fight scenes where the characters, whatever the gender, felt like they were in motion rather than posing.
Catwoman's jump->foot-on-shoulder->flip-kick-to-the-face to send Black Mask over the edge of a balcony is still one of my favorite bits of comic choreography.
*Jeff Smith's work on Bone is a fantastic place to see this in action.
I don't think Starfox would really care, but.....Are you kidding? He'd WORK it.
Like a BAWSE.
some Paizo stuff in there even. No Seoni, of course.
Did she and Ryo ever get hitched? When I last touched base with the series, they seemed to be getting pushed hard in that direction.
Also, Good Lord it does not feel right to realize that KoF is about to turn 20. Man...
Great. Now I have to look up Terry Bogard Engrish on YouTube.
KOF13 has segway conversations that fill in current details like that one for you. (I have used Team King(women fighters team)-King, Mai, and Yuri since the first KoF waaay back in '94.) King/Ryo are dating, not hitched as of the most recent one.
KOF13 has segway conversations that fill in current details like that one for you. (I have used Team King(women fighters team)-King, Mai, and Yuri since the first KoF waaay back in '94.) King/Ryo are dating, not hitched as of the most recent one.Did she and Ryo ever get hitched? When I last touched base with the series, they seemed to be getting pushed hard in that direction.
Also, Good Lord it does not feel right to realize that KoF is about to turn 20. Man...
Great. Now I have to look up Terry Bogard Engrish on YouTube.
They aren't, but they are attracted to each other. I don't know how I feel about that, I was happier thinking King was gay or at the very least interested in Yuri due to the comments she made in AoF2. That said, Japan can be strange about sexuality at times...
That said, GO TEAM ENGLAND!!!! #2 Team in KOF '94 and up!!!!!! A woman's place is not in the home!!!!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now, yes, I know that artwork isn't designed to attract women, it's designed to attract heterosexual males.Ah, but my own point about the rise of "Cosplay" would certainly imply that there are a fare number of women comic-book fans also. :)
Absolutely!
BUT there's still work to be done. You remember how the New 52 was supposed to "broaden" DC's scope and attract a bigger diversity of readers?
And yet a year after its launch, 93% of its readers were shown to be male. Interestingly enough, DC's probably been criticized the most for its outreach to female readers and lack thereof, as well as its treatment of its female heroines, both writing-wise and art-wise. (Also, only 5% of its readers were new to comics, so doing a reboot to get more of them didn't have much success.)
7% female readership isn't much diversity. I think we can do better, don't you? :)
Mind I assume Marvel and especially the indies have more female readers.
Things may be improving, but we've still got a long way to go.
On a positive note, one thing that made me really happy at the last comic book convention was seeing mothers there with their daughters. (I noticed one pair when a mom pointed at me and said, "Look, SHE has a Wonder Woman shirt on..." I was an example! ;) )
My personal theory is that in PART (the other part is of course rampant misogyny) is that it's a psychological self-rejection thing that has gone ridiculously too far and much too publicized, especially since the women targeted are young and attractive. (No one accuses ME of being a fake geek girl. ;) )
I've gone through the mental gymnastics myself (to a point). Talk to a woman I find attractive. Then think, "God, she is way out of my league, she'd never want some fat nerd like me!" Then think, "Well clearly, obviously we have NOTHING in common, what is she doing talking to me, how DARE she tease me like this!?" But I catch myself and realize I'm a) judging someone else by appearance only, which is unfair, and b) realize I'm freaking out because I'm afraid she'll reject me, and I am angry at her for a rejection I have not yet given her the opportunity to actually provide, and c) who cares, we're obviously finding something fun to talk about so enjoy the moment and stop worrying.
Given that a lot of the fake geek girl flack have quite literally started off as drunken rants by guys in the industry, I'm guessing that there's some of this weird "crap, I find someone attractive I know won't relate to me thing, and it's getting into my hobby." They get stuck in the "how DARE they" phase and fail to get to a, b, and c. Because seeing lots of women in cons is a relatively new thing, it removes a sense of safety and security for some, and the mature thing to do is of course to blame the women rather than one's own sense of insecurity and low self-esteem. In short, the attitude is, "How dare they let pretty girls in if they're not here to date me?"
It may not be a thing to do with attraction, but given it's very much a "pretty girls don't belong here!" I have to wonder.
That's my tangent, but that's why I think that nonsense happens. Basically, it's because a bunch of nerd boys are insecure and they can't deal with it so they blame it on someone else.
And for that matter, they will probably buy a comic book with a superheroine on it even if she isn't twisted into a figure 8 so you can see only her ass and t&@# prominently. She can even be pretty and scantily clad, she just doesn't have to look utterly compromised.
Or
Fanservice is good. It's okay to like fanservice.So, if I understand correctly, while males are the majority of the comic-book audience, that is no reason to "alienate" (current and/or potential) female fans.
That is correct.
Or in fact "market down" to men who might buy the book for less than superficial reasons. I've seen a lot of guys say they feel insulted by artwork like that because they feel like the company is telling them they only think with their pants/only want audience members who think with their pants.
And also that it is possible to draw people that look attractive and appealing without making them look ridiculously sexualized to the point of looking actually inhuman.
Fanservice is good and fine and enjoyable. But the context it's placed in and the type of fanservice it is can mean a lot.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
An interesting related question is: At least in part, I suspect the stereotype of socially incompetent and very male geeks, has some kind of basis in truth. To someone who has social difficulties, finding kindred spirits in being fans of a strong enough subject has positive points. Part of that attraction may be that there AREN'T any (or at least many) attractive, socially competent people of ANY sex in the field. What, then, will be the reaction once that changes? If attractive and socially competent people "invade" "their" "home", such a person's view of their hobby will likely change.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
An interesting related question is: At least in part, I suspect the stereotype of socially incompetent and very male geeks, has some kind of basis in truth. To someone who has social difficulties, finding kindred spirits in being fans of a strong enough subject has positive points. Part of that attraction may be that there AREN'T any (or at least many) attractive, socially competent people of ANY sex in the field. What, then, will be the reaction once that changes? If attractive and socially competent people "invade" "their" "home", such a person's view of their hobby will likely change.
Hey! I'm standing right here!
|
An interesting related question is: At least in part, I suspect the stereotype of socially incompetent and very male geeks, has some kind of basis in truth. To someone who has social difficulties, finding kindred spirits in being fans of a strong enough subject has positive points. Part of that attraction may be that there AREN'T any (or at least many) attractive, socially competent people of ANY sex in the field. What, then, will be the reaction once that changes? If attractive and socially competent people "invade" "their" "home", such a person's view of their hobby will likely change.
I was asked once why 'someone like you' played RPGs.
It was somone in the RPG club I helped to run, he was a socially awkward chap and it took a few questions to figure out what he meant.
I'm fairly self-confident, friendly, in okay shape (well, I was then, put on some weight since) and free from hideous scars.
He found it weird that I would choose to play dnd/PF.
I found that attitude weird: everyone I grew up playing with was friendly, confident and open-minded.
RPGs are awesome: not playing them makes you a loser, or someone who has never been lucky enough to be exposed.
LINK.
An interesting related question is: At least in part, I suspect the stereotype of socially incompetent and very male geeks, has some kind of basis in truth. To someone who has social difficulties, finding kindred spirits in being fans of a strong enough subject has positive points. Part of that attraction may be that there AREN'T any (or at least many) attractive, socially competent people of ANY sex in the field. What, then, will be the reaction once that changes? If attractive and socially competent people "invade" "their" "home", such a person's view of their hobby will likely change.I was asked once why 'someone like you' played RPGs.
It was somone in the RPG club I helped to run, he was a socially awkward chap and it took a few questions to figure out what he meant.
I'm fairly self-confident, friendly, in okay shape (well, I was then, put on some weight since) and free from hideous scars.
He found it weird that I would choose to play dnd/PF.
I found that attitude weird: everyone I grew up playing with was friendly, confident and open-minded.
RPGs are awesome: not playing them makes you a loser, or someone who has never been lucky enough to be exposed.
I agree. But human insecurity is a powerful force. Quite literally, many people around us have NO self esteem. It is rather natural to blame someone else, someone, anyone for that situation. That is the light you should see "not a real geek girl" in, I think.
It's also important to note that not everyone is into everything with the same level of fanaticism. I think that's where a lot "not a real geek girl" is coming from too.
|
|
An interesting related question is: At least in part, I suspect the stereotype of socially incompetent and very male geeks, has some kind of basis in truth. To someone who has social difficulties, finding kindred spirits in being fans of a strong enough subject has positive points. Part of that attraction may be that there AREN'T any (or at least many) attractive, socially competent people of ANY sex in the field. What, then, will be the reaction once that changes? If attractive and socially competent people "invade" "their" "home", such a person's view of their hobby will likely change.I was asked once why 'someone like you' played RPGs.
It was somone in the RPG club I helped to run, he was a socially awkward chap and it took a few questions to figure out what he meant.
I'm fairly self-confident, friendly, in okay shape (well, I was then, put on some weight since) and free from hideous scars.
He found it weird that I would choose to play dnd/PF.
I found that attitude weird: everyone I grew up playing with was friendly, confident and open-minded.
RPGs are awesome: not playing them makes you a loser, or someone who has never been lucky enough to be exposed.
For some people, RPGs are a form of escapism, forgetting your own life and self and pretending to be someone else, who is stronger, better looking, respected, heroic, etc. Someone like that may wonder why someone who seems to have a good life in the real world would want to escape it into fantasy...
|
This is not helpful. :(
Pssh. We already knew that marketing was a ghetto! And the Los Angeles Times had the nerve to interview the actresses in the latest Avengers movie as if it had some sort of feminist message to impart. Total BS. Sure, it's nice to interview movie actresses, but lets not pretend the movie is about something it is just not about. A 50% increase in actresses to 2 isn't progress, and it sure ain't the point of the franchise. LA Times had the nerve to laud this and cite it as a reason more women saw the latest Avengers film. More women? Our audience share in the US increased from 40% to 41%. Whoop. Dee. Doo.
[goes back to re-reading Rat Queens]