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So I'm drafting a multiclass druid/monk, and I just wanted to ask: When they say armor merges with you when you wildshape, is it effectively non-existent for the purposes of druid wisdom to AC (and presumably fast movement and flurry of blows)?
What about if it was wild armor of the same type?
prototype00
Your equipment merges with you and you no longer benefit from it. Aside from any magical bonuses or properties the armor has, iirc.
Wild Shape on an armor means it shapes with you, so you do benefit.
In a monk/druid's case, they would lose wis to AC, and any other monk ability that goes away when wearing armor.
I'm having a slightly hard time parsing what you are saying, so forgive me if this is wrong.
1.) Wildshape with regular armor - armor is gone, and you don't benefit from it = Monk Wis bonus to AC
2.) Wildshape with wild armor - armor doesn't go away, no monk bonus to AC?
prototype00
Yup.
Wild
Aura Moderate transmutation; CL 9th;
DESCRIPTIONThe wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTSCraft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus.
I'm a little more iffy about it than kryzbyn -- but in principle I agree that's how it should be even if RAW ends up not supporting that position.
I am currently unwilling to state how RAW reads without further research into all the abilities involved, as the wording is rather particular in all cases.
Thats cool, I was hoping the monk bonus to AC would kick in without me having to remove my armor. (Low level, it's a pretty viable tactic, armor gives higher AC than solely wisdom based, and when you can wildshape, you get to add wisdom without having to spend a round ripping armor off yourself like some kind of hippy hulk).
prototype00
Wild
Aura Moderate transmutation; CL 9th;
DESCRIPTIONThe wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTSCraft Magic Arms and Armor, baleful polymorph; Price +3 bonus.
I'm a little more iffy about it than kryzbyn -- but in principle I agree that's how it should be even if RAW ends up not supporting that position.
I am currently unwilling to state how RAW reads without further research into all the abilities involved, as the wording is rather particular in all cases.
What are you iffy on, just curious?
Is it that the armor goes away when wildshaped, therefore wis bonus to AC?
Or is it that wild armor might stack with monk wisdom bonus when wildshaped?
prototype00
I think it maybe that while wild shaped, although you don;t benefit from the armor, you are still technicly wearing armor.
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I think it maybe that while wild shaped, although you don;t benefit from the armor, you are still technicly wearing armor.
So I guess the question is whether armor that is melded into you is still being worn for various class based abilities.
prototype00
I think it maybe that while wild shaped, although you don;t benefit from the armor, you are still technicly wearing armor.So I guess the question is whether armor that is melded into you is still being worn for various class based abilities.
prototype00
Kind of this -- it's the whole you are benefiting from the armor but technically not wearing the armor even as the armor is still providing the benefit.
Personally I see it as a possibility that you will get your wisdom bonus since you aren't wearing the armor -- simply benefiting from the bonuses... much like bracers of armor or mage armor. A ring of force shield is a bit different since it says it works like a heavy shield with no ACP or ASF and is weightless.
I'm trying to decide if wild armor is more like the bracers or more like the ring of force shield.
I think it maybe that while wild shaped, although you don;t benefit from the armor, you are still technicly wearing armor.So I guess the question is whether armor that is melded into you is still being worn for various class based abilities.
prototype00
Kind of this -- it's the whole you are benefiting from the armor but technically not wearing the armor even as the armor is still providing the benefit.
Personally I see it as a possibility that you will get your wisdom bonus since you aren't wearing the armor -- simply benefiting from the bonuses... much like bracers of armor or mage armor. A ring of force shield is a bit different since it says it works like a heavy shield with no ACP or ASF and is weightless.
I'm trying to decide if wild armor is more like the bracers or more like the ring of force shield.
But you would agree that a regular suit of non-wild armor would merge and allow you to use the monk wisdom bonus to AC?
Personally, I think wild armor is more present (and therefore more likely to interfere with monk abilities) than merged armor owing to this line:
While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
Which seems to suggest that the armor is there in some invisible fashion (though that is really just conjecture).
prototype00
As a monk/druid, i expect your wis to be quite high... it might be better not to wear armor at all, and let the monk wis bonus do it's thing, because it is there with or without wildshape.
I think though, that even though armor without wild does not function in wild shape, you technally are still wearing it, so you will not suddenly get the wis bonus from AC. My question would be why you supress this bonus by wearing armor in the first place.
Why do you want to be monk? to flurry and wear items that boost your natural attack? WIS to AC when wildshaping is one of the things that draw people to druid/monk, why the armor? wear a monks robe instead.
If you want to wear armor: A full druid with wild armor is very strong, because you get the wildshape upgrades (large animal atc) at an earliest possible level. Morph into a bear and keep the benefits from armor!
The monk level(s) mean you get wildshape on a lower than maximal lvl
at later lvl, and upgrades are later)... you can flurry though, and get wis to AC, and use amulet of mighty fists or similar items
an interesting monk posibility is the sensei, because he uses wis on attack rolls: a sensei 2/druid with high WIS is an interesting combo because are more single attribute dependent (SAD), but one of the points of wildshapeing is to get bonusses on str etc, which is less usefull if you use wis to hit.
Aside from the armor debate,
Polymorph: "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form."
AC Bonus (Ex): "When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load."
Is the AC Bonus dependent on form? I think it's not a stretch to say yes, though YMMV.
This is fairly crippling, as it could also apply to Flurry, unarmed strike, stunning fist, fast movement, etc.
The flavor of monks is that they elevate their bodies to become weapons of war. If they can do these things because they have altered their bodies to strike harder, shrug off blows, etc. then those abilities would be lost. If it's considered something learned and purely mental (via the discipline of focus) then it would work regardless of what form the monk is currently using.
But you would agree that a regular suit of non-wild armor would merge and allow you to use the monk wisdom bonus to AC?I think it maybe that while wild shaped, although you don;t benefit from the armor, you are still technicly wearing armor.So I guess the question is whether armor that is melded into you is still being worn for various class based abilities.
prototype00
Kind of this -- it's the whole you are benefiting from the armor but technically not wearing the armor even as the armor is still providing the benefit.
Personally I see it as a possibility that you will get your wisdom bonus since you aren't wearing the armor -- simply benefiting from the bonuses... much like bracers of armor or mage armor. A ring of force shield is a bit different since it says it works like a heavy shield with no ACP or ASF and is weightless.
I'm trying to decide if wild armor is more like the bracers or more like the ring of force shield.
Yes I would agree -- which is part of the reason I'm pushing towards the bracers of armor more and more. After all this is something that costs a +3 enhancement modifier and provides some significant boosts for it -- while wild shaped it appears you don't have ACP, ASF (not that it matters for a druid) and no penalties or adjustments to movement.
Personally, I think wild armor is more present (and therefore more likely to interfere with monk abilities) than merged armor owing to this line:While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.Which seems to suggest that the armor is there in some invisible fashion (though that is really just conjecture).
prototype00
Again I'm starting to see it more like the bracers of armor -- yeah it's providing a bonus but that seems to be all it is doing.
Aside from the armor debate,
Is the AC Bonus dependent on form? I think it's not a stretch to say yes, though YMMV.
This is fairly crippling, as it could also apply to Flurry, unarmed strike, stunning fist, fast movement, etc.
The flavor of monks is that they elevate their bodies to become weapons of war. If they can do these things because they have altered their bodies to strike harder, shrug off blows, etc. then those abilities would be lost. If it's considered something learned and purely mental (via the discipline of focus) then it would work regardless of what form the monk is currently using.
Bardic Dave was posting a similar discussion in my last monk/druid thread. I would very much like to get this faq-ed so I might make another thread in the rules board to address it. Would you do me the favor of faq-ing the thread then?
prototype00
i would say that the armor that is melded into you in wildshape is still worn, so it still prevents the monks AC bonus to work.
My logic: -you were wearing the armor before wildshape.
-it does not dissappear and reappear (the line 'cannot be seen' suggests this, as does the fact that armor with wild quality DOES benefit you)
-you are still wearing it if you shift back to normal form.
So, you are wearing armor the entire time, you just don't benefit from it because armor designed to protect a human chest does not work on a wolf or bear
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while wild shaped you gain no advantage or disadvantage of armor. it melds into your form. it cannot be targeted by any spell or ability. until you resume normal form it is gone.
now wilding on armor says you cannot see it. it does not state anywhere that this armor does not meld with your new form. just that you receive the bonuses from the armor. still at this point you still do not suffer from armor check penalties or arcane spell failure of any kind. this is why it is a +3 bonus. by a strict reading and understanding of this armor ability it would allow you to utilize the monks ac ability.
my next point the monk ac ability clearly states that you ADD YOUR WISDOM to your armor class. not that you get an armor class= to your wisdom.. by my understanding this means that you get the armor bonus from the wilded armor while shaped (since it is not being worn you simply gain a bonus from it) and add your wisdom to that number.
it could however be read that the monk wisdom ac bonus is your armor and would not stack with wilding armor in the way i mentioned above. this is a tricky issue but with the +3 cost of the armor i still dont think this is over powered.
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i would say that the armor that is melded into you in wildshape is still worn, so it still prevents the monks AC bonus to work.
My logic: -you were wearing the armor before wildshape.
-it does not dissappear and reappear (the line 'cannot be seen' suggests this, as does the fact that armor with wild quality DOES benefit you)
-you are still wearing it if you shift back to normal form.So, you are wearing armor the entire time, you just don't benefit from it because armor designed to protect a human chest does not work on a wolf or bear
what about other gear that gives a magical bonus that is abosrbed into your form that you lose benefit of?? why is it that if you shift into a form while carrying a heavy load you are no longer considered encumbered. i see your logic but dont agree. when you shape you absorb the armor. when you shift out it reappears. wilding does not say that it makes the armor form to your new shape just that it provides an ac bonus equal to the armors bonus to you while in a shape shifted form.
while wild shaped you gain no advantage or disadvantage of armor. it melds into your form. it cannot be targeted by any spell or ability. until you resume normal form it is gone.
Polymorph: "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)."
If the item provides a constant bonus, and does not need to be activated, it continues to function while melded.
+1 Leather armor of Fire Resistance (10) provides a constant bonus (the fire resistance), and it does not need to be activated. So the energy resistance continues to function, even though you lose the armor bonus.
The only way for that gear to still provide its bonus is if you're still considered to be wearing it while its melded. And since you're wearing armor, you lose your monk AC bonus, Flurry, and fast movement.
(And if you're about to argue about the definition of "Bonus" then just replace energy resistance with Shadow or Slick.)
