Say I have a large creature (tall) with a huge reach weapon.
How far can he threaten? What is his dead zone (i.e. the space that he cannot attack due to wielding a reach weapon)?
Assuming the following is true...
large creature(tall) > 10 threat
large creature(tall) with large reach weapon > 15-20 threat, 0-10 dead zone
huge creature(tall) > 15 threat
huge creature(tall) with huge reach weapon > 20-30 threat, 0-15 dead zone
I figure that a huge reach weapon would give a large creature +15 to reach. So, a large creature would retain his 0-10ft dead zone and gain 15-25 threat zone.
Any thoughts / corrections?
Thanks!
|
Say I have a large creature (tall) with a huge reach weapon.
How far can he threaten? What is his dead zone (i.e. the space that he cannot attack due to wielding a reach weapon)?Assuming the following is true...
large creature(tall) > 10 threat
large creature(tall) with large reach weapon > 15-20 threat, 0-10 dead zone
huge creature(tall) > 15 threat
huge creature(tall) with huge reach weapon > 20-30 threat, 0-15 dead zoneI figure that a huge reach weapon would give a large creature +15 to reach. So, a large creature would retain his 0-10ft dead zone and gain 15-25 threat zone.
Any thoughts / corrections?
Thanks!
what weapon is it? unless there's a one handed reach weapon I'm not aware of or specific monster rules that allow it, he shouldn't be able to wield it (all of the reach weapons I'm familiar with are two handed weapons)
that said I don't think reach works that way. by the rules you just can't use a reach weapon to hit an adjacent foe, it doesn't have a specified area it doesn't threaten. So your giant is threatening a lot of squares.
Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.
and technically by the rules reach weapons get silly as a huge creature wielding a reach weapon can only strike foes exactly ten feet away which ignores his natural reach lol.
what weapon is it? unless there's a one handed reach weapon I'm not aware of or specific monster rules that allow it, he shouldn't be able to wield it (all of the reach weapons I'm familiar with are two handed weapons)
Since Pathfinder is so proud on its backward compatibility, an enlarged half-giant (SRD Psionic) would be able to do it.
Going back to the question, the rules only mention that a reach weapon usually doubles your natural reach. So officially the huge weapon would still just double the reach. This is consistent with a large creature having a 5 ft. reach using a large reach weapon and also only gaining a 10ft. reach in all.
Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.
This is not the official rule, the PRD mentions below that this phrase is not taken from the rules, the rules say:
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square.
|
|
what weapon is it? unless there's a one handed reach weapon I'm not aware of or specific monster rules that allow it, he shouldn't be able to wield it (all of the reach weapons I'm familiar with are two handed weapons)Since Pathfinder is so proud on its backward compatibility, an enlarged half-giant (SRD Psionic) would be able to do it.
Going back to the question, the rules only mention that a reach weapon usually doubles your natural reach. So officially the huge weapon would still just double the reach. This is consistent with a large creature having a 5 ft. reach using a large reach weapon and also only gaining a 10ft. reach in all.
That's why I asked, because I wanted to make sure that he wasn't using the rules incorrectly, if it is because of a monster ability (which is why I added more info in edit) then everythings hunky-dory, but if he was just making a mistake and allowing something that shouldn't be allowed I wanted him to be aware of that first. Nevermind, I found it, sorry for not knowing that the rule is stated differently in two different places in the book. That's actually bad editing IMO, as I went to the area where I knew reach was written and quoted it not knowing there was a second entry. Nevermind I found it, this was a case of bad editing IMO as I quoted the book and the PRD not knowing there was a second section that went into greater detail.
Size of the weapon has no function on reach. Yeah, it gets a little ridiculous, especially at higher sizes where the doubling factor really comes into play, but thats how it works.
Consider this: while you can use a reach weapon one size category larger (usually through feats/racial abilities, since most reach weapons are two handed), that doesn't change the fact that your weapon is quite literally designed for a creature twice your size.
Lets consider a longspear. For a medium creature (average 6' tall), a longspear is usually about 8 feet long, sometimes longer. A longspear for a large creature (average 12' tall) would then be 16 feet or longer. Also consider it has doubled in width as well, going from a roughly 2 inch diameter to 4.
Go to a home improvement store and find one of those 4' round treated posts. 8' lengths are fairly common. Might even be able to find a 12' length. Picture trying to wield that in combat. Simple physics demands that you hold the weapon more towards the middle, as you simply do not possess the leverage neccessary to wield it as origionally intended. This reduces the amount of the weapon's length that you can exploit in combat. Which, to sum up, is why using a larger than normal weapon does not increase your reach.
I'm sure that this example played out with other weapons like swords and axes might falter a little. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. The rules are clear: Reach is a function of creature size, which can then be modified by a weapon if it has the reach property.
|
|
what weapon is it? unless there's a one handed reach weapon I'm not aware of or specific monster rules that allow it, he shouldn't be able to wield it (all of the reach weapons I'm familiar with are two handed weapons)Since Pathfinder is so proud on its backward compatibility, an enlarged half-giant (SRD Psionic) would be able to do it.
Going back to the question, the rules only mention that a reach weapon usually doubles your natural reach. So officially the huge weapon would still just double the reach. This is consistent with a large creature having a 5 ft. reach using a large reach weapon and also only gaining a 10ft. reach in all.
Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.
This is not the official rule, the PRD mentions below that this phrase is not taken from the rules, the rules say:
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square.
Okay my bad, I quoted the rules on reach as I knew them, turns out there are two sections for reach weapons. however, the PRD says nothing of the sort and in fact the line I quoted says the exact same thing in the book, it's just that there is a section that describes reach weapons in greater detail that I wasn't aware of.
Size of the weapon has no function on reach. Yeah, it gets a little ridiculous, especially at higher sizes where the doubling factor really comes into play, but thats how it works.
Consider this: while you can use a reach weapon one size category larger (usually through feats/racial abilities, since most reach weapons are two handed), that doesn't change the fact that your weapon is quite literally designed for a creature twice your size.
Lets consider a longspear. For a medium creature (average 6' tall), a longspear is usually about 8 feet long, sometimes longer. A longspear for a large creature (average 12' tall) would then be 16 feet or longer. Also consider it has doubled in width as well, going from a roughly 2 inch diameter to 4.
Go to a home improvement store and find one of those 4' round treated posts. 8' lengths are fairly common. Might even be able to find a 12' length. Picture trying to wield that in combat. Simple physics demands that you hold the weapon more towards the middle, as you simply do not possess the leverage neccessary to wield it as origionally intended. This reduces the amount of the weapon's length that you can exploit in combat. Which, to sum up, is why using a larger than normal weapon does not increase your reach.
I'm sure that this example played out with other weapons like swords and axes might falter a little. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. The rules are clear: Reach is a function of creature size, which can then be modified by a weapon if it has the reach property.
Not to be a smart-ass, but what about a whip? If you double the length of that, would it still be wielded with 15-foot reach?
Here's some entertainment:
A centaur (large with reach 5') using a large longspear has 10' reach and 5' of 'dead' space.A hill giant (large with reach 10') using the SAME spear has 20' reach and 10' of 'dead' space.
Kinda silly, but there it is.
Ah, but a centaur wields medium sized weapons, since it is just a medium torso on a large body. A large(tall) creature, as the hill giant, is proportionally large all around, hence the increased natural reach.
I think for our group we will house rule that, when wielding reach weapons, your dead zone will be equal to your natural reach and your overall threat range will increase based on the size of weapon you are wielding. It's probably not RAW, but it's a quick calculation and should have good scalability with different sized weapons and creatures.
To use the example above with the centaur, let's assume he has a special ability or item that allows him to wield a weapon one size category larger. With a large reach weapon, I would expect him to have a 5' dead zone and a 10-15 reach.
|
Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.
This is not the official rule, the PRD mentions below that this phrase is not taken from the rules, the rules say:
Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square.
If you look below that, under Weapon Qualities, his quote is exactly what it says. So, yes, that is the official rule.
The reach quality remains the same for whatever size the creature is, regardless of how big the weapon is. Unless an Official wants to dispute that, that is how I read the RAW.
I still don't understand why reach weapons couldn't strike adjacent squares at all - with a penalty, say, because of striking with the haft or changing one's grip . Game balance? It creates more hassle than it solves, I think, and this thread is yet another example. Note: I haven't played D&D 3.0 and 3.5 enough to have remarked this before.
Back on topic. Since, per the rules, reach weapons allow you to strike farther while preventing you from striking adjacent targets, as opposed to "targets you'd threaten with a smaller weapons", I think that a Large (or larger) creature with a reach weapon could still strike the squares 5 to 10 feet away.
Guys, it's all in the specific rules for big creatures in combat:
Pag. 195:
Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal Creatures: [...] Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less.
(Table 8-4 for natural reach values per size)
There's also a table somewhere that tells you how damage scales for big size weapons.Specific beats general, use the rules provided for big creatures.
