The way I see it, there are two ways of doing this.
A) Like the Kobold Quarterly issue (which gives out some nice random tables of what misery befalls the PC's), where it's still the player who decides when to spill his guts before the torturer spills his guts literally... or
B) Where you implement some kind of Will/Fort save before the PC talks.
Here's the deal.... it doesn't matter if its 1981, 1991, 2001, or 2011... someone has to step up and be the game master. Congrats on stepping forward. I seem to recall that those who did step forward to be GM seemed to work out.
Pax ... I think he was pushed more than stepped
Also, I recall my own pre-'81 initial games in which all of us were newbs and someone had to step up and GM. I recall some sessions fondly with a nostalgia for my youthful innocence and naivete, but mostly I go "ugggggh" when I think of our foolishness. It definitely took some time to get into the groove of DMing, much less storytelling, and only after taking turns and everyone having a few rounds Playing were we in a place to become competent DMs.
IMHO, you first need experience Playing and experiencing rules and mechanics - particularly given the large and readily-available numbers of seasoned Players/GMs out there - before you can really be a decent GM. Of course, the reverse is also true; taking a turn at GM ... eventually, once you have the Player experience and some mechanics under your belt ... will make you a better Player. I try to have all my Players w/o independent GM experience run a one-shot for the Group now and again.
Pax Veritas wrote:
Tip:
Think of your game as a loose outline ...
+1
This is all basic Storytelling stuff you learn about Scene and Act structure in high school English classes, but it's right on the money. It may seem formulaic, but it works.
DM: Ok then he cuts your two outer fingers off, you reel from the pain and take 1 CON and DEX drain. NEXT!
HP Damage and Ability Damage, with a Fort. Save to avoid the Ability Damage becoming permanent. DC can be tied to the amount of damage, or the percentage of the PCs total Stat/HP level take or some such thing. Save DC might also increase additively with each injury left unhealed.
Eventually the Player will give up the info or be left with a gimp.
Note that torture is more about pain than damage, though, so there will be a lot of pain inflicted (granted, this is hard to simulate in D&D other than through HP loss ... aka "damage dealt"), followed by application of cure minor wounds followed by more damage.
Regardless, the Player rather than the "PC" or particularly the dice should decide when the interrogation is fruitful.
The most important thing about the whole process, though, is to make certain that the Players are clear on the rules before you start. Sometimes, just the threat of torture is enough to break people, and similarly the threat of permanent ability damage to their Character may break the will of many Players. It's also important to be transparent about the mechanics in a case like this, though. Otherwise you will have very, and legitimately, upset Players on your hands.
My co-worker had been DMing up to this point, but now wants to enjoy the part of playing as just a character and not both. In short, he wants me to DM.
He's taking advantage of you.
I mean no disrespect, but the end result will most likely not be a fulfilling experience for any of you. It's difficult to be a DM, much less a good one, with no experience Playing, and on top of that they've thrown you into a particularly "advanced" story conceit.
I'd suggest you tell your friend that he needs to finish out the storyline while you get your feet wet as a Player. Then, you start a new campaign with a more traditional feel and tone using your own setting.
If you have a set of Dungeon magazines containing one of the published Adventure Paths, that would be the best thing to do, particularly since there are already great resources available in the Paizo forum archives.
Otherwise, simply choose a low-level adventure you like from the Dungeon magazines that you have, play it out, see where the party ends up, then continue with another adventure of the right level that seems to logically "link" to it and continue the process for a while. A setting/world of your own might just evolve out of them. Eventually, you'll have a villain escape from one adventure and become a running nemesis of the party, then before long you'll be tweaking modules to re-use locales and NPCs from earlier ones for plot continuity and finally you'll be cherry-picking maps and story-hooks and NPCs and throwing out most of the module storylines as-written.
Again, I personally suggest you set aside the complex story/plot/conceit that the group is currently running. Maybe come back to it later when you're more experienced as a DM and then it can be a more fulfilling experience for everyone.
We'd all hate to see you turned off to the game simply because your friends threw you into the deep end.
HTH,
Rez
P.S. I already referenced it once earlier today, but if you do decide to stick with the running storyline, then you really need to understand a concept called Metaplot.
So, my Illusionist used Silent Image to make the entrance of the cave appear about 20' off to one side.
Would have to be one heck of an illusion. I imagine a dragon, particularly one that comes and goes often enough, would know the look and feel and "landing approach" of his lair pretty well, being able to do it almost blind. The sheer AoE needed to pull this off is mind-boggling.
Fatespinner AND Fizzban in the same topic? This is wonderful!
AND
Freehold DM wrote:
Lilith..made...Dark Sun Stuff?
Falls to the ground twitching
Wow ... a Paizo Board-Poster fanboy ???
OT - Hope everyone's well, since I've been swamped for a while with family business /OT
Fate & L. seem to have things well-in-hand. I suppose like anything the "tone" is up to you as DM. The Romans were pretty fair to their slaves and had laws about their treatment, payment, buying your way out of slavery, etc.
Athas is usually more bleak, but it needn't be. However, as a world on the edge of ruin and collapse it pretty much works.
The "less-human" races such as Thri-Kreen, Belgoi, etc. seem to fill a lot of the usual niches of Orcs and other goblinoids, so I'd say fairly common. It also reinforces the whole "not-your-typical-D&D-world" feel.
Metal-rarity is a major part of the feel and set-up.
My most significant piece of advice is that the PCs will not survive as the typical adventuring party of "traveling semi-loners". Only those who belong to a group in Athas can survive, much less prosper. They will need the support of a group, be it a city-state army, merchant house, trade guild, racial tribe, secret society, slave-tribe or whatever. Otherwise they will become food or slaves or gladiators to those who are more powerful and more connected.
By all accounts, it is an "Evil" world, rather than the typical D&D LG/CG baseline. PCs will be consumed by it unless they have allies.
As a post-post-Apocalyptic world, Athas is idea for end-of-world or rebirth-or-world or renewal-of-world metaplots. I'd suggest tying the PCs into some type of metaplot. Some time ago I was discussing metaplot structure with Mr. Fish, which you can find HERE.
Ditto ... excellent concept and execution by author Joseph P. O’Neil on that one. It's always great to see dragons with personality and motives other than being XP-fodder.
So when I try to load my Bookmark for the Nodwick archive page I'm currently reading or the latest Full Frontal Nerdity comic, I get a Game Spy "wrapper" splash-page ad that is stuck in a recursive loop.
Any one else experienced this? Any thoughts or suggestions?
Have you considered the apprentice rules in the 3.0 DMG? This would allow you to be a 0 level cleric and a 0 level wizard
I love those 0-level rules, and that would be my recommendation as well. You need to work on them to make them fit for 3.5 or PFRPG, but that would be minor work overall.
I have used these rules MANY times to great effect with "concept-driven" PCs. Often they are Rogue/Wizards, Fighter/Rogues and so forth where a single Class doesn't really hit the mark and they are too low-level for a PrC.
FWIW, I do generally grant the PCs at 2nd level the balance of Skill Points from their better-skilled Class (Rogue or Ranger, usually) as if they had multi-classed normally with that class at 1st level, just to encourage/reward the RP of a "half-half" PC while not "cheating" them of Skill Points they would normally have gained from going a more traditional route.
I pull the same cheat with NPCs ... a War1/Exp2 blacksmith who retired after a few years in the town guard into his trade skill gets full Exp points at 2nd level as if he had done it at 1st (since he's on a slow progression anyway), while I reduce his War1 points (usually, some Exp stuff "overflows" to retroactively cover his War stuff, though).
Doesn't work the same for adventuring PCs, though.
i.e. they could not (to my understanding) rewrite 'The Whispering Cairn' for 4E if Erik didn't agree to it.
Unless copyright laws and contracts work very differently in US than in Europe.
As you said, it depends upon the contract.
Actually, there has been a great effort in the US and EU to conform copyright laws internationally.
Still, the issue is contractual rather than legal. A normal magazine licenses the work published form the author but the author still owns it. However, in Dungeon the authors were writing using proprietary material owned by WotC. The adventures could be legally considered "subsidiary works" owned by WotC.
Since the APs were parceled out to specific authors rather than submitted to the Submissions Slush Pile as spec. works, it is likely that the were contracted as "works-for-hire" and thus owned by WotC (with Paizo acting as Agent, since the material is published under license).
Finally, Spec. or Contract, it is also possible the contracts were written as a "pick-up", in which the author surrenders all rights for a lump-sum pay-out. Sit to the very end of the credits in a film and you'll see a line that says something like, "For the purpose of copyright, ownership and all other rights, XXX Studios is considered to be the author of this motion picture." It really doesn't matter who wrote, produced, directed, shot or edited it, since the studio bought all their creative claims off them.
Again, I've never written for any D&D publisher in any form (mostly to protect my rights to my own, separate material) and never seen their contracts. I know in the early days the were pretty naive/traditional about it as a publisher, where the authors still owned the rights (and this is largely why the older mags don't go to PDF) but they got more savvy in later years, and I'd actually be surprised if they didn't change the model.
FWIW,
Rez
P.S. I can't speak for Erik, but my guess is he wrote that adventure For-Hire, and as such WotC can do whatever they wish with it.
Expanding the definition of "witty" to include "light tone" and "clever twists" or "mistaken identity" give a fairly long list of quality choices from older magazines (3rd Ed editors clearly shied away from comic fare) ...
Note that some duplication of previously-posted suggestions exists
Spoiler:
032 – Changeling - Local shepherds are in terror since the recent arrival of a white dragon to the area. Find the lair of the beast and slay it before the shepherds join their flocks in the beast’s gullet. But beware, for “white” can indeed be misleading, especially when the name of the dragon is Whitefire.
032 - Pearlman's Curiosity - In this comic adventure, residents of the town of Grinley Crossing seem to have gone insane. Everything is upside-down, backwards or reversed. From the people to the animals no one is acting as they should ... usually the complete opposite. Investigate and put things right. Hint ... can you say “nilbog”?
034 – Euphoria Horrors - The cries of a distraught child ring through the woods as he searches for his lost play-companion “Drake”. The search for his missing friend leads to a tribe of tasloi who have become addicted to the Euphoria Gas breath-weapon of Drake, the faerie dragon.
036 - Troll Bridge - A Troll has recently taken residence beneath a small bridge, demanding that tolls be paid by any who would cross. But how vicious is that “troll” ... and did I really catch a glimpse of a gnome hiding nearby?
038 - Pandora's Apprentice - When the Mistress is away, the apprentice will play ... especially if she is a young genius able to sneak into the mage’s lab. Unfortunately, a flask of curses and the lure of magic items have become a bad combination for the young lady, who has taken to “liberating” magic items from adventurers.
038 – Things that Go Bump in the Night - Sylvan elves fear the recent haunting of hobgoblin ruins, but cannot investigate the taboo location. Really, the sounds are a firbolg demolition crew, but the giants have a request before they’ll stop work ... remove a powerful “witch” from their old home. But is this “dark witch” really evil, or just misunderstood.
040 - Song of the Fens - The lovely Martinique has been promised in marriage to a local knight. But her heart is given to the unknown singer whose enchanting voice rises above the stink of Vile’s Fen. She must seek the aid of adventurers to find her love, not realizing the beautiful voice is that of an outcast troll.
041 - Old Man Katan and Mushroom Band - Old Man Katan is a eccentric hermit who lives in the Glitchegumee swamp. He is accompanied (literally) by a patch of Camprestri ... singing mushrooms. Explore the swamp, meet its terrors, and see if you can survive Campestri Acapella. For those in need of comic relief, duh.
041 - Way With Words, A - A gnome scholar seeks brutish but historically inclined adventurers to recover a tome of Gnomish poetry he believes was stolen by a pretty bard. But the bard herself has been the victim of robbery, having been waylaid by a band of literate goblins who believe the tome of sappy love poems is a powerful spellbook.
045 – Rudwilla’s Stew - The Duke has a secret to keeping the Bugbear hordes from attacking. Every year he has the witch Rudwilla prepare a special stew as a “Birthday Tribute” for the chieftain. Now his birthday is only three days away, and the witch is short a few vital supplies, from hogroot to troll’s warts.
047 – Fraggart’s Contraption - When the gnome Fraggart was taken hostage his family quickly gathered and paid his ransom. But now he has sent a not claiming that he refuses to return home until he has finished with a recent “discovery”. A rescue is clearly in order.
048 – To Bite the Moon - Gnolls have been raiding the local traderoutes. Sneak into their cavern lair, but become the victims of an accidental “wish” that transforms the entire party into a band of gnolls themselves.
049 - Hair Today, Gone Tomorrow - Months after receiving a haircut from a dwarven barber, you suddenly find yourself magically teleported to his side and forced to protect him during a battle. This continues throughout the months, as you realize you’ve fallen victim to a diminutive sorcerer with a custom summoning spell.
049 – Lenny O’Brien’s Pot of Gold - A troublesome Leprechaun has stolen your valuables, and you are able to track him to a muddy pool. Can you get your items back ... and are you curious about why the river has been diverted and a rough aqueduct built, and why tracking the leprechaun was so simple?
051 - Bandits of Bunglewood, The - Terrible monsters, possibly even monstrous spirits, have begun raiding travelers upon the highway through the Bunglewood. Put an end to these attacks, but keep focused on finding the real culprits rather than get distracted by a band of mere kobolds slinking about the forest.
052 - Welcome to the Krypthome - Add together three dwarven miners, a missing fourth, a collapsed mineshaft, two moronic goblins, a Ring of Invisibility, a Bag of Tricks, and the workshop abode of a traveling mage who specializes in researching Wild Magic and what do you get ... Comic Relief !!!
054 - Witch's Fiddle, The - A band of Faerie musician has been attacked by a “witch” who stole the fiddle of one of the satyrs. Recover the instrument and bring the thief to justice, but remember that ever story has many sides and never judge a book by its cover.
057 – Carcas Fracas! - In the road before you lies the body of a hobgoblin, face down in the road. From the number of arrows sticking out of its back it is obviously dead ...
058 - Bad Batch of Brownies, A - Druid solo adventure - The Brownies of the Apple Wood are suddenly causing no end of havoc. A comic-relief adventure featuring well-intentioned brownies, a well of many worlds, and a recent visitor to the brownie’s grove who rides a “hog” with a “chick” on the back and hates the “lid” that the law makes him wear.
059 - Wedding Day - Two merchant families are about to be joined in marriage, and an ex-boyfriend is jealous. He is also rogue and former wizard’s apprentice, so trouble is to be expected. Comic relief adventure.
060 – Centaur of Attention - Trouble brews in a small village when a wizard passes through in a cart drawn by a vacuous centaur. Prevent a fight and mob lynching while settling the matter of the wizard and the centaur.
062 - Wild in the Streets - An evil wizard has released a horde of foul beasts to destroy the small, border town of Thenwick ... or perhaps the rare carnival animals of a traveling showman have escaped. Recapture the beasts without injuring them or destroying the town.
064 – Mad Chefs of Lac Anchois, The - Rescue Grippli before they become “frog’s legs” at the dinner table of Cloud Giant Chefs serving to a visiting delegation from the Cloud Giant Kingdoms.
068 – Artist’s Loving Touch, The - An elderly sculptor is using Gloves of Petrification and were-rat kidnappers to turn innocent victims into new masterpieces.
070 – Homunculus Stew - A mage’s homonculus is about to become dinner for an ogre. What the mage fails to mention is that he sent his tiny servant to steal spell components from the ogre’s cave.
076 - Day in the Market, A - A bumbling mage brings mayhem out of the sewers and into the market after a gray ooze eats his Wand of Wonder and begins “burping” magical effects.
080 – Frothing Miscreant - An inventive gnomish retired-adventurer with an inferiority complex has turned to piracy. Track down his lair and bring him to justice, but beware his “cruel inventions”.
088 – Make it Big - A band of hill giants threaten to crush a halfling village unless the heroes agree to a brief period of indentured servitude (to make the giants “nice things”). Only, the giants are so impressed with the quality of the heroes products, they decide to “extend” the contract.
089 - Wedding Bells - A wedding brings the PCs to the remote town of Dockalong, where a young halfling has mysteriously disappeared and a village outcast sulks in the woods. Can a glum satyr be convinced to give up his only “friend”, even if she is a half-fiendish harpy?
091 – Legend of Garthulga - Elven legends state that the undead Garthulga awakens every century to terrorize the countryside. Now appears to be its time, as some beast is terrorizing Barcus Thigwhistle’s Inn and Trading Post, driving off his business and eating his pet hog. Put an end to the attacks without running afoul of a trio of halvling “adventurers” who’s price to end the trouble is more than the now impoverished Barcus can afford.
109 – Devil Box, The - The kobolds have accidentally opened their “devil box” and released a very bitter kyton and three imps. They’ve hidden in a human town until they grow back to normal size (1 week), and the only kobold who can recapture them (a grotesquely fat moron) has been sold by the tribe to a Freak Show as the “reptile boy”.
126 – Menagerie, The - Monsters are running loose at “Gwen’s Relic’s”. A scaled-down “Asflag’s Unintentional Emporium” .
does being grappled by a creature with mirror image let you automatically tell the difference between the real creature and it's images
BEING grappled I would say "Yes", the character engaged in the grapple is able to tell. However, any character wishing to initiate or join the grapple would have to choose and attack mirrored targets at random until finding the real one.
FWIW,
Rez
P.S. I agree RAW is unclear on this point, but Logic would seem to learn towards the above interpretation.
EDIT - I would not rule that a grappled character is duplicated by his opponent's spell as if he was an object, but rather that it appears that he is being swarmed by a mass of opponents when viewed from those outside the grapple.
I second this. I've been DM'ing Savage Tide for over 2 years and am currently on Issue #149.
Sorry guys, but James has addressed this question in several other threads in the archive.
Simply put, there will never be supplements to Dungeon #148, 149, 150 due to the fact that when WotC pulled the license all assets reverted to them. Paizo is legally unable to produce supplemental materials for these magazines.
Questions about supplements should be addressed to WotC, who I assure you will turn a very deaf ear.
We have routine short downtimes of days to weeks between and even during adventures.
When In-Game Downtime can be measured in months (usually 3+) then it becomes Extended Downtime. This is where characters pursue non-adventuring careers and interests. I've had EXDTs last anywhere from 5 months to 3.5 years. The average at low- to mid-levels seems to run about 18 months.
If the characters pursue non-adventuring activities that are "new, novel and different" from their previous experiences or that show "continued career growth" along an established path they are awarded 200 XP per month of EXDT. This "EXDT-Bonus XP" goes into a special pool which can only be used to buy Expert-class levels. The PCs gain the benefits of the Expert class in Skill Points, HP, Saves, BAB, etc. and it counts towards Total Character Levels for bonus feats, but I don't count them against PCs for purposes of balancing encounters, XP awards and so forth.
(Note - Due to an anti-Level-Dipping House Rule, characters can't gain double +2 base bonuses on Good Saves, so for Wizards and Clerics the Will base bonus is only +1. OTOH, I do allow Experts to shift their Good Save if Fort. or Reflex is more appropriate to their career and pursuits, meaning a Fighter who becomes a City Fire Fighter might choose Fort. and only gain +1 from his first Expert level).
This give the PCs a way to mechanically represent their non-adventuring careers and take Skills like Profession (magic shoppe accountant) or Knowledge (dwarven culture) without burning precious Class-based Skill Points needed for adventuring.
If a PC decides that their "non-adventuring career" involves serving on a naval ship hunting pirates or guarding a caravan headed across a treacherous trade route to distant and exotic lands, then either the trek is boring or non-productive, or else they do not gain "Combat XP" for any fights in which they are involved but still get the "Expert Bonus XP" to improve their abilities as a Naval Officer, Navigator, Cartographer, Linguist/Translator, Wagon-master or whatever.
Over all, the system has worked out well. By 15th level the PCs have spent years in EXDT and covered 10-20 years in-world, having gained 2-3 levels of Expert, basically making them the equivalent of experienced and capable Journeymen at their non-adventuring careers.
Fine. I think it would be more interesting if the armor was bolted onto them or the non-masterwork weapons were in locked gauntlets.
Again, think of the first arena in Gladiator when each Red (i.e. "Good") slave gladiator was paired with and rivet-chained to a Yellow ("Poor") one.
The goal of the fight promoter will be to make things interesting for the audience and shake up the usual tactics of the participants, not allow the Rogue to shed his armor and fight like always.
Monsters with gaze attacks might have one eye plucked, anything with flight will be clipped or chained down, &c., &c., &c.
If it were me, I'd rivet them into armor, lock them with weapons in their hands and let them adapt, then award them extra XP for their creative solutions (this also will help balance out the lesser XP they would earn for the monsters of lower CR).
Alternately, I'd bind the weapons into their hands and strap on the armor for when they came through the doors into the arena, then it's up to them if they want to put the effort into undoing and discarding it, being flat-footed and taking AoOs along the way. Maybe the Cleric and Fighter will shield the Rogue as he unbuckles his half-plate or the Fighter could even hold everything back while the Cleric helps the Rogue ungird faster.
Also, consider giving them weapons that are ill-suited to them. A short-sword locked into a gauntlet for the Fighter, a net for the Cleric and a Greatclub for the Rogue.
Anything you can do to shake it up means more in-world excitement for the audience, a more memorable challenge and combat for the Players and more XP for the PCs if they employ creative solutions.
I'm going to refer to them as "Rogue", "Fighter" and "Cleric" based upon the highest class-level for each.
Lawmonger wrote:
normally they weigh in as a 14th level party. To give them a EL15 encounter I simply throw a CR 15 monster at them.
Then they must have extra gear, because they are short a party member to be a true 14th-level (aka ACL/APL 14) party.
Lawmonger wrote:
but without magical gear they obviously weigh in lighter. how much lighter?
I think it varies by PC. Fighter will be the most impacted, Rogue probably the least and Cleric somewhere in the middle, though the latter two depend upon their individual Ability spread, spell tactics and Skill spends.
I'd say Fighter loses the equivalent of 4x EL based upon the fact that he loses good quality gear (2x) and magical gear (2x) upon which he relies. That makes him -4 LA, or ECL 10.
Cleric relies on spells, so let's only hit him for 1.5x on gear and a full 2x on magic since he loses potions and wands and scrolls. That's a 3x loss, or about -3 LA, thus ECL 12.
Rogue does not so much need gear since he has Skills, but he really likes his magic trinkets that give him cool skill-bumps and so forth, as well as offer him better Hit and Damage. Mostly he relies upon his Dex. and monk-fighting/swashbuckling. I'd go with LA -2 for ECL 11.
Basically, the party has gone from APL 14 to APL 11, or a net loss of three levels.
However, there are additional caveats below ...
Molech wrote:
Lawmonger wrote:
They are being thrown into the arena with basic half plate and non-masterwork weapons.
The problem I see here is that the Monk is Hugely better than the other PCs in this fight
Ray/Molech is a great guy, but I have to disagree with him on this one. Rogue is clearly a light-fighter. If he is forced to wear half-plate this will kill the Dex-bonuses upon which he relies. In this case, he actually takes a bigger hit in the Equipment value, perhaps taking another -1 or -2 of LA to account for this severe hinderance to his fighting style.
Molech wrote:
You'll have to design a dynamic encounter; one or two of the PCs will fight while others will be doing something else to peripherally help the fight
It sounds to me like they are being placed in a gladiatorial arena for "judgement" and/or "execution of sentence". Picking up on Molech's suggestion of a dynamic combat, I'd consider not placing them against a single CR 10-11 creature, but rather 3-6 opponents of CR 7 or 8 each.
The Romans used to love their "matched pairs" in which two gladiators of different types were pitted one against the other with either counter-balancing or opposing strengths and weaknesses. For example, they might place a pair who each had a strong defense against the other's main offense, or they might place a pair in which each was intentionally weak against the other's main offense. These combinations would result in entirely different types of matches.
I'd suggest placing your PCs up against "matched (sets of) opponents" that will keep a crowded arena audience entertained. There should be some high SRs that the Cleric can't affect, some high ACs that the Fighter can't hit, some non-crit. that the Rogue can't flank and Sneak Attack, but each should also be vulnerable to a different character and none should combine these abilities.
It will take some work and effort on your part, but will be a fun, challenging and memorable session for your Players.
HTH,
Rez
P.S. Watch the movie Gladiator and pay attention to the first fight in which Russell Crowe was poorly armed and unarmored.
I did write a sequel. It is no longer in RPGA circulation. Since they paid me for it, I am afraid I do not own the rights to it, but I have been meaning to investigate that.
Jason,
Did the RPGA contract the adventure from you (i.e. were you simply hired as a contract writer) or did you write the adventure independent of them and they paid you to allow them to publish it?
If the latter, you might still own the copyright, though you may have ceded them exclusive publishing rights or license. OTOH, they might have bought the copyright from you and now effectively own the adventure (this is something Hollywood studios love to do with spec. scripts).
As the OP, I'd just like to state that I already changed keen edge to a 1st level spell and reverted to the 3.0 rules that allowed it to stack with Improved Critical. My rule is here:
Spoiler:
Keen, Improved Critical and other "critical threat range" effects now stack. Only one of each type of effect (i.e. item quality, feat, spell, etc.) may be used.
Note that effects that expand (e.g. "double") the threat range only affect the base threat range, making all expansions additive rather than geometric. Also, since the spell keen edge is used to imbue a weapon with the Keen quality, that spell does not stack with a keen weapon, nor can any other "critical" spell stack on a weapon already imbued with that spell.
This reverts somewhat to the 3.0 rules which allowed Keen and Improved Critical to stack. Since then, numerous spells in the Spell Compendium also impact critical threat range, hence the caveat about allowing only one of each type. Since the Keen quality is essentially a permanent keen edge spell, they also do not stack.
The decision to revert and expand the Critical Threat rules is largely impacted by the math and discussions in this thread:
... which clearly demonstrate the weakness of the Keen quality.
I've long been tempted to do this, so here it is.
I think the point has been well-made that KE is seriously lacking, and I'm now bored with the math and would like to get back to discussing enchanting busts.
Unfortunately, that's when the enemy infantry climbing aboard gets inventive with ...
You're missing the point.
Actually, I think most of the do not allow Ignore posters are missing the point.
Ignoring Flanking won't be a common thing. It's difficult if not impossible by sight to tell the difference between a light TWF Fighter and a Rogue, and if the monsters can tell the difference and always Ignore then the DM is cheating and meta-gaming. In fact, most monsters don't even know what a Rogue or Sneak Attack damage is. Again, if the DM meta-games then you should change DMs in the group or look for another place to play.
Ignore Flanking is at best a rarely-used option that is entirely situational. It opens up significant vulnerabilities. Most opponents of PCs will never use it because they are facing too many opponents of the same "level" and giving such significant advantages to a powerful opponent (i.e. the one you're ignoring) isn't worth the risk.
The only situations in which you might Ignore is when there is a single Champion who is getting flanking from a bunch of mooks. Whether it's a Fighter with a big crit-range or a Wizard going after your Touch-AC or yes ... even a Rogue with sneak attack, then it might be worth using. This is not a Rogue-nerf tactic, but a situationally valid tactical combat choice.
Frankly, PCs are more likely to use it than monsters, IMHO, so the Rogues really don't need to worry (well, the NPCs might).
My point with the Tank analogy was that if the infantry are harmless to you, then you can ignore them. Of course, once they start carrying RPGs or C-4 or if you can't button-up securely and they can even put hand-grenades into your hatches then you stop ignoring them. However, that wasn't the case in the very narrow example I used. Again, the point is Ignore only works in a small number of situations, and only if the enemy doesn't have the ability to adapt to your tactics, but in those and only those situations it is a legitimate thing to do.
Suppose the DM has planned an adventure to eliminate a Thieves' Guild that is supported by the corrupt Town Guard (NPC Warriors). The PCs choose to Ignore the Warriors to prevent the Rogues from getting SA damage each time they swarm the party. Well, the guild will quickly start dressing a few guardsmen like thieves and put high-level rogues in the uniforms of guard conscripts. The PCs will get stung badly for a couple rounds, and when they say "I focus my attacks on the guy in a guard uniform who Sneak Attacked me" the DM replies, "Which one ... there are four that look alike and you were ignoring them so you don't know which struck you."
Personally, I'd be happy if the monsters choose to Ignore my beafy THF Fighter to focus on the Rogue. That just lets me get in a free AoO with a Two-Handed Power Attack against a very low AC at my best Attack Bonus. Using a weapon with a decent Crit-range and maybe even Keen or other magic, I stand to do more damage than the Rogue could even with a sneak attack. The monster's Ignore tactic to remove the Rogue's SA-damage actually benefits a PC party in this case. Sure, the Player of the Rogue might like the thrill of doing more HP damage, but that's just a pissing contest. By drawing the full attention of the opponent he enabled the Fighter to bring it down faster and so contributed significantly to the successful defeat of the monster and so gets his full XP and needs to take it and shut up and be happy.
Actually, as a DM I'd give extra XP to any Rogue who waved his short-sword at an opponent and shouted, "Turn your back on me for even an instant and I'm gonna stick this right in your kidney" in order to draw the Ignore and give his flanking Fighter buddy a free AoO.
Successful adventuring isn't about dealing the most HP of damage with your individual character, but rather using the tactics that best benefit the entire party of which that character is a part. If you're the Rogue and your opponents are using Ignore to eliminate your SA damage, then use that to your party's advantage.
Mostly, Ignore just won't come up, but it's nice to have a mechanic for it before hand in case it does.
... there was a huge thread on this basic topic not long ago ...
... and yet no one has posted THIS link yet from Wizard's Rules of the Game column.
FWIW ... I have only scanned enough of the thread to get the gist and verify that this link has not been offered.
IMHO ...
There is absolutely no reason in the world that a high level Tank-Fighter shouldn't be able to ignore the goblins surrounding him so that the Grandmaster Rogue doesn't get Sneak Attack damage.
There is no reason in the world why a high-DR creature should not ignore the Commoners surrounding it to focus on the Grandmaster Rogue with DR-bypassing weapons and a high Sneak Attack.
The fact of the matter is, if you're on the battlefield in an M-1 tank, you don't worry about the locals and their small arms if there are T-82s on the battlefield and you're pretty darned certain the irregular infantry doesn't have RPGs or TOWs. You simply ignore them, even if they are climbing all over you.
Let's say the illusion was created by the wizard in the party instead ... so the illusion may as well just stand there and make rude gestures, which may be annoying and distracting, but cannot grant flanking.
Now, if I were a DM, the spell were of sufficient level (at least Minor Image), and the caster was descriptive and imaginative enough, I *might* allow the use of the Aid Another action. But still no flanking.
Hmm ... I hadn't even finished reading this post and was already Replying on the Aid Another bit, when in editing the quotation I noticed he already mentioned it.
So +1 from me (+2 since it's Aid ???). I would definitely allow AA.
Bigger monsters won't solve that because they lose on the economy of actions still... more monsters however would work, since they can tie up more character's actions and bring the economy of action back into balance.
QFT
Large parties require large encounters, not simply more powerful ones. You need to spread PC damage-dealing among multiple targets and prevent everyone and their mother from flanking. With a 2x size party, simply going +2 CR isn't enough.
I would tend to bump the BBEG/Champion CR by +1 or +2, add an Advanced/Elite/Improved lieutenant and a handful of mooks for major or capstone encounters.
I had been under the impression (from the Playtest) that Trip/Disarm AoO's were only possible if you have the Improved X Feats (with the idea that AoO's themselves provoking an AoO is disruptive to game-flow)
Granted, it's 3.x rules, but read the follow article from Wizard's excellent Rules of the Game column.
Look about 2/3rds of the way down for a section titled "Attack of Opportunity Chains".
the orc didn't know the rogue was there due to stealth, so sneak attack seemed feasible. If the rogue was just in plain sight, then no sneak attack. Thoughts? Thanks!
Whether or not the orc knows the Rogue is there is irrelevant. Whether the attack is a Standard, Full, Melee or Ranged attack is irrelevant. Regular Action or AoO is irrelevant.
If the attack conditions permit Sneak Attack damage then the damage is dealt. If the orc moves out of a square that is threatened by the Rogue but he is also flanked in that square, then he provokes an AoO that deals Sneak Attack damage even if he knows the Rogue is there. If he doesn't know the Rogue is there and is surprised (and thus flat-footed with respect to the Rogue), then he takes the damage. If any other condition allows for SA damage, then it is dealt.
It does seem a lot closer to a real "class" than the Savage Progressions version. I think, if anyone chooses to keep the disease, I'll go with this.
I have the hard copy of the mag., and used it in my last campaign arc. One character had gotten afflicted just as he was about to level. He was a low-level Rogue-Ranger, and I offered him the option of taking a level of Werewolf (he would have gone Ranger, otherwise).
Had he decided not to take the level of Werewolf, I would have turned him into an NPC whenever he changed, shifts during moon-phases would have been automatic, and he would not be able to take any Ranks in Control Shape. Taking the Class allowed him to buy Ranks and at least have a chance to control his condition and mitigate his transformation and alignment shift.
The Player, incidentally, did an exceptional job of role-playing this in-session, and for a while several other Players who didn't know what was going on behind the scenes wondered about what was happening ... why Bob was seemingly, slowly and subtly playing his character (over several biweekly session, or months of time real-world) more surly and short-tempered and had gone from very urbane and clean-cut to becoming a Grizzly-Adams clone.
It did help that he had an IC mentor to help teach him to embrace/balance his "inner self", so things like alignment- and shape-shift were not automatic. The storyline played out very well.
I buy spyglasses to cut down my encumbrance. The spyglass weighs only 1 pound, while 1,000 gold weighs 20 pounds.
[threadjack]
That, sir, is what gems are for. My world has a standardized system for the use of "trade gems" which function basically like high-denomination bills. PCs can convert gold into gems and gems into gold. Exchanges limits and fees are based upon the community they are in, but money-changers generally charge 3-10%. Not bad, really.
I'm well aware of his situation, but was just trying to inject a little humor. Hopefully no one takes it the wrong way. Certainly, we all wish him well, and after this summer I'm happily pleased that the updates are coming with the relative frequency that they have been.
Actually, I'm curious: where is the Werewolf coming from? I can't find it in my copy of Savage Species.
There was a similar article in Dragon magazine. Unfortunately I'm away from home right now (out-of-town), but IIRC the number was in the low 300s. It was a white background with a raging hybrid werewolf attacking you on the front cover.
This version presented the Werewolf-class as a complete 5-level progression, rather than a 3+2.
Someone else I'm sure can look up the article and supply more info.
I think that divine favor scales in "quality", or greater magic weapon, or other spells.
Perhaps you need to re-read the post immediately above yours, or re-read the spell descriptions.
All these spells scale in "quantity" but not "quality". They simply do "more of the same" rather than "something new". For example, divine favor does not begin to affect spell damage when you become more powerful, and greater magic weapon simply keeps increasing your bonus but doesn't add flaming or keen or vorpal or other quality as it increases in level.
Simply put, other spells to that. Hence my whole point in this thread.
Last session a PC got dominated ... PC is still technically under its effects.
It wouldn't always become irrelevant. A dominated character would continue to follow orders it had been given
First command was "Kill the owners of this boat." Another character fired a spell that grappled the BBEG and two minions but had one target left. He tagged the dominated PC. The next command, "Roll overboard", was deemed clearly suicidal (smart BBEG, but got a little panicked and gave a command he should have known wouldn't work) and so negated.
BBEG focused on freeing himself, but was dead before he could give another command, and since he'd changed the "kill" command that was no longer active. PC is still technically dominated but effectively freed.
Anguish wrote:
That was a satisfyingly compelling story ... I'd like to add "death to all gulls".
Glad you liked it.
I'm OK with gulls, which I also find eminently practical, but have a greater aesthetic fondness for butterflies and scissors.
It's worth noting that "15 minute adventuring day" is simply a generic term to indicate that adventuring is only a small part of the day.
If an encounter lasts 4 rounds and there are 4 encounters per day, then that's 16 rounds of encounters or a 96-second adventuring day :-)
Of course, the term really applies to dungeon-crawls in which the party goes through 4 rooms listening at doors, checking for traps, rushing in and killing monsters, searching for loot and secret doors (wash ... rinse ... repeat ... repeat ... repeat) and then camps, despite the fact that there is still the rest of the dungeon just beyond the doors that, for whatever reason, never comes knocking.
I've done the "15-minute day" myself as a Player. We fought our way into a couple rooms, and realized we didn't have the strength to press on. Fearing "the monsters on the other side of the door" would come to see what all the noise was about, we would look at our map and retreat to a secure location far enough away from the current room that hopefully anyone coming to investigate would tire of searching and give up before they ran across us. Then, we (as Players) sat anxiously while the DM rolled some dice, wondering if we were being tracked or a wandering monster was ... well ... wandering.
2 sessions ago an opposing wizard sent his familiar on a strafing run against the massed PCs. It had a high AC and lots of protections due to a magical collar. Nevertheless, the party tore it to shreds ... literally.
Following its Fly-by Attack the party loosed several magic missiles and volumes of full-attack {i]Rapid Shots[/i] upon it, despite other foes around. The gull's protect vs. arrows was overwhelmed, and it died. It stopped flying and began to fall, triggering the feather fall in the collar.
At this point, the main archer in the party still had additional attacks (from haste IIRC), so he fired again and again at the slowly falling corpse of the familiar. They've had a problem in previous adventures with magic items healing "dead" opponents and bringing them back into the fight. A square hit and a near-max crit later, the gull had effectively been shot out of the collar and cut to ribbons. Feathers and bits of shredded seagull went everywhere, falling into the estuary below.
Meanwhile, the bloodied, empty collar kept floating down on its own.
Last session a PC got dominated. There was a ton of duration left, but BBEG got killed in the middle of the fight (he still had Champions left, though) so the duration became irrelevant. PC is still technically under its effects.
Look at it another way. If I start the microwave to heat up a bowl of soup then suddenly have a heart attack, the microwave continues until someone else stops it or it hits the end of its time, because that's what it is programmed to do.
Non-concentration spells are "fire-and-forget". Sure, you can come back later to some of them and make adjustments, but otherwise they just do what they are programmed to do without any more input from you. Otherwise, a wizard would have to deal with the bookkeeping of round-by-round "spell point expenses" to "fuel" his spells.
I despise the 15 minute workday ethos that seemed to pervade 3.5, and I've never subscribed to it ... If they want to sleep at ridiculous hours hit them with wandering monsters.
Forget "random". If they wake up the dungeon and then stop attacking, the dungeon comes looking for them.
You either press the attack or you retreat and fortify. You can't just "stop".
My own group had to face this question two sessions ago. They had tipped their hand to a powerful enemy force. The options were to retreat and let the bad guys slip away, hold camp and probably have a more powerful enemy overwhelm them, or else to attack on what was probably a suicide mission and hope for the best. They attacked when the enemy presumably expected something else.
After an initial but hard encounter, they were down on spells and healing after a big fight and had an even bigger one bearing down on them. Time now to turn tail. They retreated while debating escape vs. other options. They decided they could gain a little distance, then slip in behind their enemy and make it back to the enemy base before their opponents, hope there wasn't a strong garrison left behind and maybe capture the fort and then strongpoint it against their pursuing enemy. At least, that was the plan they discussed. The Priest figured they were being scried anyway, so at the critical moment to turn and rush the base he had them reverse and flank the enemy main force.
Ultimately they won that fight, but there were some harry moments.
Point is, you have to keep the initiative. Once you give it up then you're doomed.
I had always understood the "balance" to be 4 combats per "adventuring day" with a major combat lasting ~4 rounds and a minor one 2 rounds. This is based upon comments made by J.J. (in print during STAP, IIRC).
Look at it another way ... According to the 3.5 DMG, p.49 (can't find a similar quote in PF-CRB), "An encounter with an Encounter Level (EL) equal to the PCs’ level is one that should expend about 20% of their resources—hit points, spells, magic item uses, and so on. This means, on average, that after about four encounters of the party’s level the PCs need to rest, heal, and regain spells. A fifth encounter would probably wipe them out."
Assuming that the party hits a couple encounters below their own APL, one at and one above, that still averages about 4/day in terms of resources. I presume that since PFRPG is "backwards-compatible" that the same rationale applies.
I flipped through both my 1st and 2nd Ed. Player's and DMG but can find no mention of this variant (so far).
Yea ... I have done the same several times and can't ever seem to find it again. I vaguely recall it being in blue-shaded text from a 2nd Ed. DMG (I know it wasn't 1st) and not a "Black Book" version. Oh well.
In many cases Quantity is Quality for these spells.
You would have a very hard time convincing me that more energy resistance is not better energy resistance.
You're confusing the very specific denotation of the terms "quantity" and "quality" in regards to D&D. "Quality" does not mean good or bad, but rather "attribute", such as "magical melee weapon qualities vs. ranged weapon qualities vs. armor and shield qualities".
Certainly higher CL and thus more points of resist energy gives you more quantity and thus more "quality" in the "good" sense, but as you increase in level you don't start resisting a second then a third then a fourth type of energy on a single casting. You simply resist a greater quantity of a single quality.
That's generally the way of D&D spells, that as level increases you gain benefits of quantity, but not quality. To gain benefits of quality, you need higher level spells, often in the form of greater versions of the base spell.
Write it up however you like and think is beneficial and balanced, I really don't care. My point is that PfA itself doesn't need to scale in qualities but just do what it does in quantity. Higher level spells can give you other types of DR, and even if your bow-wielding opponents now all have magic arrows that bypass it that wonderful 2nd level PfA when you're higher level helps keep giant-thrown boulders from being such a problem.
