Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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In my original turnover for the Rival Guide, I think two members of the Kodar Kneecappers were written as being "half-dwarves" (human-dwarf crossbreeds). In the final version, they are just dwarves, so it may be that there ain't no such thang in Golarion. Ah well. :)No half-dwarves in Golarion. The genes just don't match up. I guess you can keep trying if you want, though... O_o
That's the beauty of it - you can keep trying as much as you want! Pre-emptive birth control FTW! :)
That's the beauty of it - you can keep trying as much as you want! Pre-emptive birth control FTW! :)Hmm. Dwarven hookers. A whole new definition of 'scared straight.'
It could be worse. Think about Gnoll hookers.
It could be worse. Think about Gnoll hookers.That's the beauty of it - you can keep trying as much as you want! Pre-emptive birth control FTW! :)Hmm. Dwarven hookers. A whole new definition of 'scared straight.'
Think about Mammy Graul turning tricks in her misspent youth before Pappy Graul made an honest woman of her.
Go ahead. I dare you.
Oh, there's a much cheaper option. Get a Demon Mother's Mask. Spend a few extra gold pieces to break the "must worship Lamashtu" security protection the standard model comes with.
I have to point out that jailbreaking religious relics is a serious anathema and you can be persecuted by it. In this case, you will be brutally sodomised by aberrant monstrosities of size huge or larger.
If they can't interbreed, halflings are pretty much fetish-fuel, being child-sized hookers who can't get pregnant.
Or maybe just a tragic tale of two people in love who would like children but can't have any of their own. Doesn't have to be a fetish.
If they can interbreed, halflings and humans can have stable family relationships and a non-creepy storyline involving halfling / human relations can exist.
I have heard of many "stable relationships" in more rural areas, and it involved couplings that cannot interbreed. That stuff's actually illegal in many countries. :P
It's reminding me of pedophilia for some reason...
Well, of course. Halflings are older than humans. When they see one of theirs hooking up with a, say, 19-year-old human, they call the halfling a paedophile even though the human is an adult as humans go.
Some halflings are just stupid that way, not realising that the adulthood ages are different for all races and trying to shove their standards down their own throats.
I'm sure some of the more conservative orphanages would disapprove of a mixed race family but there are others that would allow them to adopt I'd imagine so long as they have a good income and pass the background check.
Note: If you adopt a kid of a different species, please tell it early enough that it's adopted. It will cause too much confusion for the kid. The things that can happen: Dwarves adopt a human and he's going to bang his head on the mine ceiling all the time.
Frankly, given the vast array of half-foo templates that exist (not yet in Pathfinder, and maybe never, we can only hope), I've always assumed that any species that could fit its wee-wee (whatever form that takes) into the hoo-hoo (whatever form THAT takes) of another species could create offspring.
Really? Orcs and cows? gnomes and dogs? Humans and wolves?
That's way too fantasy, and, frankly, sick for me.
Half-orcs and humans can have kids. Half-elves and humans can have kids. Why not halflings?
Get it?
Heh...
...you get it, right? It's like, halflings are half human.
I know a half ling. His mother's maiden name is Ling. Does that count?
But anyway, I've always thought it was weird that certain races could intermarry (orc/human, elf/human) but not others. What about all these?
It's magic. Genetics tend to become weird when racial magic enters the fray, and some gods will stop some couplings out of pride, principle or other reasons.
orc/elf: A popular combination to forbid. Doesn't work in Pathfinder. Nobody exactly know why, but it's a source of great relief for elves - and, of course, fuel for their mocking of humans. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, the racial gods for both races seemed to agree that their kids shouldn't have kids together.
orc/dwarf: Not in Pathfinder, but in Midnight, that was one of the possible combinations. Talk about a race born in hate.
elf/halfling: Same as above. Except the elflings were not as tragic as the dworgs.
Why are we still talking about this? It's gross! Gross, gross, gross! Eeewww! You're all a bunch of pervy hobbit fanciers!
Sam will kill you all if you try anything!
Regardless of what James says, this is something for your GM to answer. He ultimately determines what can happen in his world.
It's true! The Paizo staffers are only speaking to Pathfinder canon--we highly encourage folks to modify Golarion (and the rules that govern it) however they see fit. Customize at will!
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Random plug for Owen KC Stephens
'Bastards & Bloodlines.'
Including such fun crossbreeds as;
Winter Wolf + Dwarf.
Umber Hulk + Gnome.
Halfling + Harpy.
Elf + Naga.
Beholder + Hill Giant...
While I picked some sensational-sounding crossbreeds, the flavor text behind them is generally pretty awesome, and not at all as crazy as it sounds.
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If we go back to the original inspiration for halflings, Tolkien's hobbits, they were (according to Tolkien) just a short variety of the human race, and thus should be perfectly able to interbreed with other humans.
D&D has always treated them as a separate 'race'... but at the same time the even more divergent 'races' of Orcs and Elves are able to interbreed with humans, which in actual scientific terms would make them all biologically the same species. Which is also how Tolkien had it... indeed D&D's 'half-elves' and 'half-orcs' seem likely inspired by the same crossbreeds in Tolkien's works.
Finally, on the Tolkien thing... in 'The Hobbit' there is mention of a rumor that the Baggins family had elf or goblin (synonymous with orc in Tolkien's work) blood mixed in. Again, suggesting the possibility of cross-breeding in the original source for the concepts.
However, as others have said, it really depends on the DM's ruling for their campaign setting.
It should also be stresed that if two races can explicitly not interbreed but are still capable of having sex, then this becomes a feature rather than a bug in some circumstances. Why purchase expensive eunuchs to guard your wives' and daughters' virtue when halflings, dwarves, and even gnolls will work just as well? Yes, it may be shameful if your daughter decides to seduce her gnoll bodyguard, but not as shameful as having to hire a discreet midwife to dispose of an unwanted pregnancy.
Or you could just be doubly safe and have your daughter guarded by a gnoll eunuch. Is there a word for those?
It's magic. Genetics tend to become weird when racial magic enters the fray, and some gods will stop some couplings out of pride, principle or other reasons.
orc/elf: A popular combination to forbid. Doesn't work in Pathfinder. Nobody exactly know why, but it's a source of great relief for elves - and, of course, fuel for their mocking of humans. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, the racial gods for both races seemed to agree that their kids shouldn't have kids together.
While Profesor Tolkien kept away from sexuality in his works, Middle-Earth could possibly have elf-orc crossbreed unlike Golarion as orcs were probably of elven stock, corrupted into their new, vile shapes (and minds) by Melkor. However I can't think of other worlds where would be close relation between those two races except Midnight (see below).
orc/dwarf: Not in Pathfinder, but in Midnight, that was one of the possible combinations. Talk about a race born in hate.elf/halfling: Same as above. Except the elflings were not as tragic as the dworgs.
Midnight's orc and dwarves were closely related. Same for elves and halflings. And both were branches of single elder race - Elder Fey if my memory serves that separated many millenia ago into earth-related protodwarves, with one of the clans being corrupted by dark god into orcs and protoelves that later splintered into three or four tribes of elves and halflings.
There is no hint of elf-orc or elf-dwarf hybrids but with lineage like tht it could be possible if highly improbable.On the other hand Midnight lacks human-elf or human-orc hybrids.
...but it also means that humans and halflings could use it to conceive children... .
Unfortunately, it wouldn't be that easy.
The mask specifies that it allows the wearer to interbreed with Animals and that the resulting children will either be animal-humanoids like Gnolls or Lizardfolk, or natural lycanthropes. It wouldn't let humans and halflings have kids.
So while the basic design is sound, you'd probably have to figure out a different way of building the mask to allow you to interbreed with any humanoid.
...but it also means that humans and halflings could use it to conceive children... .Unfortunately, it wouldn't be that easy.
The mask specifies that it allows the wearer to interbreed with Animals and that the resulting children will either be animal-humanoids like Gnolls or Lizardfolk, or natural lycanthropes. It wouldn't let humans and halflings have kids.
So while the basic design is sound, you'd probably have to figure out a different way of building the mask to allow you to interbreed with any humanoid.
I'd give this as a research question to a council of wizards from Rahadoum, Kingdom of Man, and let them argue that the distinction of "humanoid" is highly arbitrary and there's no functional difference between a "humanoid" and any Awakened member of the great apes--and if someone tried to argue differently, they'd argue that this was an artificial distinction foisted on reality by Lamashtu to keep her "animals" portfolio and they'd go about breaking it just out of basic principle.
I'd give this as a research question to a council of wizards from Rahadoum, Kingdom of Man, and let them argue that the distinction of "humanoid" is highly arbitrary and there's no functional difference between a "humanoid" and any Awakened member of the great apes--and if someone tried to argue differently, they'd argue that this was an artificial distinction foisted on reality by Lamashtu to keep her "animals" portfolio and they'd go about breaking it just out of basic principle....but it also means that humans and halflings could use it to conceive children... .Unfortunately, it wouldn't be that easy.
The mask specifies that it allows the wearer to interbreed with Animals and that the resulting children will either be animal-humanoids like Gnolls or Lizardfolk, or natural lycanthropes. It wouldn't let humans and halflings have kids.
So while the basic design is sound, you'd probably have to figure out a different way of building the mask to allow you to interbreed with any humanoid.
Does that mean that I can get any bonuses from any Outsider bane weapon against human bandits? They're outcasts after all, and that which makes them outsiders. ;)
And you are right, that there isn't much "difference" between an Awakened great Ape and a humanoid. In the sense that neither of them have the Animal type and cannot be used as targets to interbreed with by someone where the mask.
It's reminding me of pedophilia for some reason...When I read this, I heard it in a voice like Eeyore's from Winnie the Pooh. That, combined with your avatar, made for some LOLs.
I can't unhear it.
Godsdamnitsomuch.
And a friend is demanding a sequel to the bit from the Gnomish vs. Dwarven strip club sampling.
That said, I'm reaching the point where I'm going to count how many posts it takes for someone to jump directly to the Pedotown Conclusion whenever humans and halflings or gnomes are mentioned in tandem or sequence.
(it's like instant drama! Heavens forbid a lass have a centaur friend she spends unseen time with...or a minotaur...)
This whole thread reminds me of Gnomelings from Hackmaster...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Too many things I can't unread.
We did have a party once where we had a paladin (human) always being pursued by twin halfling sisters (played by the paladin player's wife and another woman) he kept spurning their advances because they reminded him too much like children (IC of course).
I was always trying to figure out the logistics of getting my female Fey'ri to change shape into his form and accept their invitations 'on his behalf'. for their own good of course.
(if there was one race I wish was OGL, it would be the Daemonfae)
Finally, on the Tolkien thing... in 'The Hobbit' there is mention of a rumor that the Baggins family had elf or goblin (synonymous with orc in Tolkien's work) blood mixed in. Again, suggesting the possibility of cross-breeding in the original source for the concepts.
It could also prove how vicious rumours can be. There's always talk about how this family or that has (insert fantasy creature) blood in their veins. Even if (fantasy creature) doesn't really exist in that world.
It should also be stresed that if two races can explicitly not interbreed but are still capable of having sex, then this becomes a feature rather than a bug in some circumstances.
Yes. I mentioned "stable" relationships already ;-)
Plus, Golarion gnomes shamelessly exploit the fact that their fairy genes aren't compatible with any other race.
Or you could just be doubly safe and have your daughter guarded by a gnoll eunuch. Is there a word for those?
Gnollsnobolls? Gneunuchs?
But anyway, gnoll eunuchs are a really bad idea. Gnolls are already a lazy bunch, and if castration affects them like it does, say, cats, you can't get them to do anything after you unmanned them.
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In my original turnover for the Rival Guide, I think two members of the Kodar Kneecappers were written as being "half-dwarves" (human-dwarf crossbreeds). In the final version, they are just dwarves, so it may be that there ain't no such thang in Golarion. Ah well. :)No half-dwarves in Golarion. The genes just don't match up. I guess you can keep trying if you want, though... O_o
In Arcanis gnomes are the result of Human/Dwarf pairings. However since all Dwarves are giants cursed by the Pantheon leader Illir, the curse is passed on to the gnomes by giving them each a unique and hideous disfigurement, so gnomes pretty much are relegated to the bottom rung of society, frequently cast out by their parents.
While Profesor Tolkien kept away from sexuality in his works
I have several books full of frodo-on-sam chapters that make it hard for me to accept that assessment ;-)
, Middle-Earth could possibly have elf-orc crossbreed unlike Golarion as orcs were probably of elven stock, corrupted into their new, vile shapes (and minds) by Melkor.
I'd guess that whatever Morgoth did to the proto-orcs, it rendered them useless for orc-elf breeding.
I'm a bit hazy about the books, but in the film, Saruman had to do some magic breeding when he made his half-orcs. Could be that was just to get something icky in the films without making it unsuitable for a younger audience.
Would make sense for Tolkien. There is no way a Tolkien orc could be anything but a monster. So there is no way a Tolkien elf and a Tolkien orc can become friends, let alone lovers. So that's one way of possible orcelf children out of the way. And something as bad as rape (or even prostitution) probably doesn't exist. So the other ways you get kiddies are out, too.
On the other hand Midnight lacks human-elf or human-orc hybrids.
Because humans aren't related with the Fey races. They can't interbreed. That's why only the races descended from the Elder Fay can have crossbreeds. Elf/halfling elflings, dwarf/gnome dwarrows, and orc/dwarf dworgs.
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This thread has once more (unnecessarily) reminded me of my policy to never mix genetics and fantasy gaming :)
Aww, but then you miss out on all of the interesting ideas that spring up as a result of this. Like the fact that since Elves and Humans can interbreed and have fertile offspring (Half-Elves), technically they are the same species! And this also goes for Humans and Orcs, which means that Elves and Orcs are the same species (heh, go tell an elf that!).
Random plug for Owen KC Stephens
'Bastards & Bloodlines.'Including such fun crossbreeds as;
Winter Wolf + Dwarf.
Umber Hulk + Gnome.
Halfling + Harpy.
Elf + Naga.
Beholder + Hill Giant...While I picked some sensational-sounding crossbreeds, the flavor text behind them is generally pretty awesome, and not at all as crazy as it sounds.
Thanks for reminding me of that book's existence.
And seriously... dwarf + winter wolf? How the heck did that even -- no, I don't want to know.
This thread has once more (unnecessarily) reminded me of my policy to never mix genetics and fantasy gaming :)Aww, but then you miss out on all of the interesting ideas that spring up as a result of this. Like the fact that since Elves and Humans can interbreed and have fertile offspring (Half-Elves), technically they are the same species! And this also goes for Humans and Orcs, which means that Elves and Orcs are the same species (heh, go tell an elf that!).
The elf will just hex you to within an inch of your life, ask you "where is your science now?" and smite you the rest of the way :P
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The elf will just hex you to within an inch of your life, ask you "where is your science now?" and smite you the rest of the way :PThis thread has once more (unnecessarily) reminded me of my policy to never mix genetics and fantasy gaming :)Aww, but then you miss out on all of the interesting ideas that spring up as a result of this. Like the fact that since Elves and Humans can interbreed and have fertile offspring (Half-Elves), technically they are the same species! And this also goes for Humans and Orcs, which means that Elves and Orcs are the same species (heh, go tell an elf that!).
"Me do experiment...Me Science!" A voice in his ear taking him by surprise.
Then your buddy Og hits him in the head from behind...his head exploding like a smashed melon."Oh! Baby Elf not growing inside elf skull."
No, no, that's not how 'I'd hit it' is supposed to work.
I just go with the "I think that would be impossible" theme for couplings. Such as, Halflings can't breed with humans as they are just too small as drawn in the pictures, making breeding impossible. (The babies wouldn't take). Or the species are too different.
It may not be possible to have a human/halfling child using the traditional, fun method. But this being fantasy, there are always ways of MAKING it work. Perhaps there is a wizard or an alchemist who has his methods. Of course he isn't willing to work for free, and may not be easy to get to. And of course there's going to be many who disapprove of the deed.
Correct. In the Inner Sea region, humans and halflings can't interbreed. Magic can solve everything, of course, but unless you want to spend your all-powerful wish on making babies--and hey, maybe some people will--you're sort of out of luck in that regard.
you don't HAVE to go the wish route - just find an alter to Shub-Niggurath and get busy! i'm pretty sure someone will get pregnant. What is less certain is what will pop out 9 months later. i'm sure it will be at least somewhat halfling related.
Well looking at the current core rules
Halfings about 3'
Gnomes about 3'5"
Kender 4'
All of which is still on the creepy side, though most TSR depictions of Kender put them around 5'2". Still creepy pedo implications with that races name though.
Well looking at the current core rules
Halfings about 3'
Gnomes about 3'5"Kender 4'
All of which is still on the creepy side, though most TSR depictions of Kender put them around 5'2". Still creepy pedo implications with that races name though.
SHORT FOLKS EQUALS PEDO! DRINK!
Of course, with no evidence of Teutonic languages occupying LanceSpace, it's rather amusing to assume that linguistic evolution will parallel; nevertheless, nomenclature-derived assumptions will immediately appear, no matter the details indicating to the contrary.
I'm almost tempted to make the pic someone was so kind as to do of a gnomish druid for me into an image macro. "According to people on the internet, thinking this is hot makes you a pedo."
Also, I like some of the ideas put forth by several others about using certain sites and rituals - I could easily see a few capricious druidic types being willing to lend assistance, if only for 'the lulz'. CN druids, mind, but druids nonetheless.
I know one idea we were kicking around for our game world of Tethus was that Elves were the first mortal race, descending from the Fae, as the gnomes did millenia later. Orcs were the result of an evil god experimenting on and torturing elves - which is pretty much how Morgoth made them in the Silmarillion - into hyper-aggressive brutes. Elves crossed with Orcs resulted in an unexpected species that eventually became known as humanity. Halflings and dwarves were created by gods for their own purposes - they felt the world was missing something, and made a mortal race to embody it, be it the fearlessness and laughter of the halflings, or the will and fortitude of the dwarves.
Since elves, humans, and orcs all come from the same stock, it explains why they can crossbreed, resulting in half-elves, half-orcs, and humans, sort of like lions, tigers, ligers, and tigons.
Does it makes sense genetically? Not even a little. But that's okay, it's fantasy.
I'm almost tempted to make the pic someone was so kind as to do of a gnomish druid for me into an image macro. "According to people on the internet, thinking this is hot makes you a pedo."
Now linkified because Ruloc deserves massive art pimping.
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I know one idea we were kicking around for our game world of Tethus was that Elves were the first mortal race, descending from the Fae, as the gnomes did millenia later.
I love the way Arcanis subverted the Elven trope. Ellori were not creations of the gods... they were the made to order slave race that were designed to certain specifications.
1. To be immortal, because the yuan-ti that created them did not want to spend time retraining new generations in thier tasks.
2. To not need sleep, so that they can be made to be active 24/7 as fighting machines. (Wielding magic was not part of the initial design.)
After several of the earlier researchers were executed for not meeting the Emperor's timetable, the Se'sseren finally hit upon the means for creating that race... mating a captured nature spirit to four elemental lords ceiling the deal by mandating that the new race would be thier worshipers. All in all it worked rather well.
Too well.
I don't care for "half" races at all but a human/½ling makes more sense to me than a human/orc.
I think if you're going to include mixed races then you should provide a mechanic for doing so consistently, as HARP did, or simply drop them all together. Humans only, but only with Elves and Orcs, doesn't make a lot of sense to me even from a fantasy perspective.
SJ
I have no problem with random half-races. Going back to Gygax's literary antecedant appendix in the 1st ed. DMG, in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, Valgard is half-elf/half-troll, but looks like a human.
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Half-orcs and humans can have kids. Half-elves and humans can have kids. Why not halflings?
Get it?
Heh...
...you get it, right? It's like, halflings are half human.
Half-ling; The appropriate question is what is a 'ling'?
Ling: Soft finned food fish of the cod family (Molva vulgaris) Ranging from Iceland to the English Channel. Dark Grey, lighter beneath, 4-6' long, it is a ground fish, trawled at 50-100 fathoms in the north Sea, and line-fished in the Winter. Salted or dried as Lenten stockfish for central and south europe, it yields inferior 'cod-liver' oil.
Conclusion: The Halflings are half cod-liver oil...meaning they taste nasty.
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I have no problem with random half-races. Going back to Gygax's literary antecedant appendix in the 1st ed. DMG, in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, Valgard is half-elf/half-troll, but looks like a human.
Obviously never seen a Namek. 7' tall, swamp green, Thick leather skin and pointed ears, regenerates as long as his head aint cut off and destroyed.
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I have no problem with random half-races. Going back to Gygax's literary antecedant appendix in the 1st ed. DMG, in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, Valgard is half-elf/half-troll, but looks like a human.Obviously never seen a Namek. 7' tall, swamp green, Thick leather skin and pointed ears, regenerates as long as his head aint cut off and destroyed.
Also known to have such a serious issue with BiPolar personalities they sometimes split into two people. :)
Roze Triplets. From different mothers, of course.
Random tangent since I forgot to say as much earlier...
It varies with the game and which world/setting I'm using.
Some of the silly games allow for more mixed happenings than what you'd get for feeding Xanth through the Book of Erotic Fantasy.
Others, not so much.
And where I compromise, the best summary is that, if normally not possible, then no barring certain critical successes. And if magic's involved, the source of the magic influences most in regards to increased racial likelihood, then it's a case of the child taking after one parent or the other for race, then appearance, effectively being treated as all of one race or the other.
Gnome bro marries himself a dwarven Snooki, and she's the one who supplied the magic for their bedroom antics, that's going to increase the odds of their freshly baked metaphorical bun in the oven being a dwarf. Could end up dwarf or gnome, male or female, normal skin tone or oompa-loompa orange, but at the end of the day they will be considered one or the other, for purpose of magic items and spells, even if they are socially treated as both.
Random tangent since I forgot to say as much earlier...
It varies with the game and which world/setting I'm using.
Some of the silly games allow for more mixed happenings than what you'd get for feeding Xanth through the Book of Erotic Fantasy.
Others, not so much.
And where I compromise, the best summary is that, if normally not possible, then no barring certain critical successes. And if magic's involved, the source of the magic influences most in regards to increased racial likelihood, then it's a case of the child taking after one parent or the other for race, then appearance, effectively being treated as all of one race or the other.
Gnome bro marries himself a dwarven Snooki, and she's the one who supplied the magic for their bedroom antics, that's going to increase the odds of their freshly baked metaphorical bun in the oven being a dwarf. Could end up dwarf or gnome, male or female, normal skin tone or oompa-loompa orange, but at the end of the day they will be considered one or the other, for purpose of magic items and spells, even if they are socially treated as both.
There's a passel of different feats from 3.5 that can be used to give extra twists of mixed parentage, and even ignoring those and going with RAW! RAW! Golarian standard, you'll note that the mongrelmen still made it into the bestiary.
Logically, it's going to take more than one generation with two species of interbreeding for you to get the deformed weirdie with the crab-claw hand--unless your fertility potion was made by an incompetent, unethical, and/or deranged alchemist, in which case it's entirely possible. Then again, that would hold true even if both parents were of the same species and using a Lamashtu-style fertility potion.
Would a Half-Halfling be a Quarterling?
I had one DM once rule that lycanthropy constituted a STD. That made or some very unpleasant game play.
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The fact that humans can interbreed with elves and orcs does not necessarily indicate that elves and orcs may interbreed as well. They might be a ring species.
Or the standard issue of an elf/orc pairing is a human...
Edit: As Lyingbastard already suggested. Doh. Points deducted from Set for not reading the whole thread before posting...
If it ever came up in my games, I think I'd probably go with an equal chance for the child to be either race, but the child would qualify for racial traits/feats of their other parent. This COULD of course cause problems for a halfling mother if the child takes more after the human father... could maybe even be a warning halfling mothers give their girls... Don't fall in love with a human... you might not survive childbirth.
Same with other PC race combinations. Human/Dwarf wouldn't have as much problem with childbirth as halflings (and gnomes) would, as dwarves are still medium, just short and stocky.
However, I'd also make a very reduced chance of pregnancy. Like most people think it can't happen, but there are those "miracle children" where it does.