Alright, I'm coming up with a whacky idea here and just want to bounce a few ideas around the board here cause I don't have it fully fleshed out. So here are the things I am interested in including in the build (I realize they can not all fit):
1. Human to start with Racial Heritage (Catfolk)
2. Master of Many Styles Monk focusing on Dragon (only down to Dragon Ferocity), Crane (likely the full line) and Panther (likely only the first feat) styles.
3. Unarmed Fighter to pick up a couple of bonus Style Feats.
4. Ranger only up to level 2 to get access to Aspect of the Beast.
5. Pick up the Catfolk Exemplar feat to bump natural attack damage higher. (I believe this works in conjunction with unarmed attacks from the Monk)
6. Use of Claw Blades.
7. Likely only a single level into Sorcerer with the Crossblooded: Gold Draconic/Empyreal bloodline simply to qualify for...
8. Dragon Disciple. Physical stat boosts, natural armor boosts, ...just everything. Whats NOT to love?!
I would have loved to work in Barbarian to pickup 3rd level in Savage Barbarian/Wild Rager build that takes advantage of bonus attacks gained safely with a high Will save and a bonus to AC. I was even forseeing taking the Beast Totem Rage Power for another bonus to AC. Alas this is incompatible with Master of Many Styles which I feel is more pivotal to the build with the need for mixing styles.
I thought about using the Wild Stalker Ranger archetype instead for the Rage abilities but that gets rid of the Ranger's Combat Style Feats so that is a no-go right out the door. Plus I didn't really want to go that deep into Ranger just to get to Rage powers. I was really more interested in the features that Savage Barbarian/Wild Rager added with the extra attack and added armorless defense. I just don't think it can be done so I'm sorta forgoing it. Dangit.
The other issue is being able to combine three Sytles. I don't see taking 3 levels of Monk but there isn't really any other way to have 3 Styles active at once. If I go 8 levels into Monk then that precludes the possibility of completing Dragon Disciple. So it doesn't really work. I'm probably going to have to give up one of the Styles. And that makes me a sad panda.
The theme here is for the character to have latent Dragonne blood and that he has honed his natural gifts into a very feral combat style using his claws. From an RP angle he would be trying to battle his feral nature by controlling his emotions with practiced discipline. This is very much in the Star Trek Vulcan sense here.
I would be interested in picking up Deflect Arrows at some point but I think that is the only other feat I would want to squeeze out of the build outside of Racial Heritage, Aspect of the Beast, Catfolk Exemplar and the Style Feats and their prerequisites.
So... outside of what I have mentioned here... any suggestions?
Oterisk, wtf are you when we need you? Equally important, when we don't need you why don't you go away?!
...but I need you now. So I invoke your name.
They had better fricken work! Its your fault I thought of this idea, BBT. RAR!!
Why not both Monk and Unarmed Fighter? Bonus feats at 1st and 2nd level for both. Thats like, um... *counts on fingers* ... 4 feats, dude! And yeah, 2nd level Ranger for Aspect of the Beast. With those 6 levels, being human, plus a level of Sorcerer to qualify for Dragon Disciple thats ... um... hang on, *counts fingers on both hands* ... 10 feats in 7 levels! (2 bonus fighter, 2 bonus monk, 1 bonus ranger, 1 bonus human, 4 from levels)
For this kind of build I would rather forgo all armor.
Oh, and Catfolk Exemplar improves the damage for the claws if you already have Aspect of the Beast.
Hm, your right. I was actually thinking that I had to take Aspect of the Beast first but I guess I could start out at first level with Racial Heritage (Catfolk) and Catfolk Exemplar. Actually, now that I'm thinking of it that forgoes the need to even dip Ranger at all. I could just take Aspect of the Beast at some later point whenever I could fit it in as Catfolk Exemplar qualifies you for it.
Well, that helps, BBT. Thanx! :)
Sure. I didn't talk much about equipment but appreciate input in that category as well.
I'm not sure how well guided would work with the character having a high Str and Wis though.
Can I ask, what combo/combos in particular your looking at here. and by that I mean.
e.g.
Combine A + B and C = lots of damage plus this effect.
You making a lot of dips and I'm just trying to see where the goal your seeing is as there may more elegant ways of getting there.
Well, I probably make characters differently then many do. I like coming up with a concept and then building as effectively towards that concept as I can whether that concept is particularly effective or not. That being said I think I can make this work fairly well.
With your analogy I can make a few things fit.
Gaining a natural attack with Racial Heritage (Catfolk) + Catfolk Exemplar allows me to qualify for Aspect of the Beast. Monk gives a starting unarmed strike of 1d6. With Aspect of the Beast and Feral Combat Training I believe that would bump it up a die size. I know that I could do this with Improved Natural Attack as well but I haven't run the idea past my prospective DM yet and I know some people don't like monster feats on PCs. This is a completely RAWable possibility. And if he allows Improved Natural attack I could take that too.
I'm not entirely certain on how the Claw Blades work. Due to the wording I'm not certain if your attacks be be enhanced by both manufactured weapon bonuses applied to the claws and say, for instance, an Amulet of Mighty Fists. I know they can be used with Feral Combat Training as they are still a "claw" attack. I also believe for that reason that they can still be used in a flurry. Outside of that, it is sorta unclear what can apply to their use.
As far as combat tactics goes I like the idea of having a good standing AC due to high Wis, a decent Dex, natural armor bonuses, dodge bonuses and fighting defensively. Then putting hit mitigation on top of that with Crane Wing and Deflect Arrows. This makes for a solid defense.
The Panther Style feat couples well with Combat Reflexes allow for possible multiple AoOs/turn. Mobility and fighting defensively with the Crane Style feats allows you to do this safely. It makes for an offensive defense.
The Dragon Style feats ups the claw damage as well. I think. Again, I'm not sure how this all works with Claw Blades.
Dragon Disciple with natural weapons is where I really want to be from a conceptual standpoint. I feel that the stat boosts, natural armor boosts, d12 HD, and everything that the PrC offers from a martial standpoint could really benefit such a build. And what little it lacks in effectiveness it makes up for in flavor.
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Well, I probably make characters differently then many do. I like coming up with a concept and then building as effectively towards that concept as I can whether that concept is particularly effective or not. That being said I think I can make this work fairly well.
With your analogy I can make a few things fit.
Gaining a natural attack with Racial Heritage (Catfolk) + Catfolk Exemplar allows me to qualify for Aspect of the Beast. Monk gives a starting unarmed strike of 1d6. With Aspect of the Beast and Feral Combat Training I believe that would bump it up a die size. I know that I could do this with Improved Natural Attack as well but I haven't run the idea past my prospective DM yet and I know some people don't like monster feats on PCs. This is a completely RAWable possibility. And if he allows Improved Natural attack I could take that too.I'm not entirely certain on how the Claw Blades work. Due to the wording I'm not certain if your attacks be be enhanced by both manufactured weapon bonuses applied to the claws and say, for instance, an Amulet of Mighty Fists. I know they can be used with Feral Combat Training as they are still a "claw" attack. I also believe for that reason that they can still be used in a flurry. Outside of that, it is sorta unclear what can apply to their use.
As far as combat tactics goes I like the idea of having a good standing AC due to high Wis, a decent Dex, natural armor bonuses, dodge bonuses and fighting defensively. Then putting hit mitigation on top of that with Crane Wing and Deflect Arrows. This makes for a solid defense.
The Panther Style feat couples well with Combat Reflexes allow for possible multiple AoOs/turn. Mobility and fighting defensively with the Crane Style feats allows you to do this safely. It makes for an offensive defense.
The Dragon Style feats ups the claw damage as well. I think. Again, I'm not sure how this all works with Claw Blades.
Dragon Disciple with natural weapons is where I really want to be from...
Don't forget to take Claw Pounce when you hit BAB +10! That would be at... what... level 14?
2x Fighter + 1x Monk + 0x Sorcerer + 7x DD = 10. This means that you would finish off the Dragon Disciple levels (although I don't know if you were planning to take them all the way to 10. If not, you'd hit the +10 BAB faster) and then you'd take Claw Pounce as your next feat, letting you full attack with your claws after a charge, and you'd be able to flurry as part of that, so you'd be looking at 4 claw attacks. Sweet.If only you could sneak in some Rogue (Scout) levels, you'd do sneak damage with d8s also. It would take 4 levels of Rogue though, so you're probably better off taking more Fighter levels instead.
Oterisk, wtf are you when we need you? Equally important, when we don't need you why don't you go away?!
...but I need you now. So I invoke your name.
*appears in a puff of smoke in a shower cap, holding a rubber duck*
Ahh, good morning. Some of us sleep on occasion, sorry for the delay.
Yeah, 8 levels of MoMS is key to being able to use three styles, as well as starting them at the same time. Otherwise you have to pick which style to get into at the beginning of combat anyway. Dragon is a great one, and Crane is pretty cool defensively, I would go with those two if I had to pick. Panther is pretty cool too, so you can pick up some more levels of monk later.
Don't be afraid of switching back and forth from your prestige class once you want something more from your base classes. I advocate a level dip back into your base classes after your first 4 levels of DD because level 5 DD isn't the best. (unless you took 4 levels of sorcerer and you are just getting your 9th level bloodline power, but that's neither here nor there)
Crossblooded Emperyal is a good choice since you are considering monk, it helps mitigate your -2 to will saves as well. Your only 4th level spell will be fear or Remove Curse, so that's not as good. Might want to pick up a metamagic feat if you manage to have a spot available, if you care. A metamagic rod might be better to get a quick buff off before you fight.
Alas, my search fu is weak. I don't understand this claw blades, but it looks like fun.
I'm not entirely certain on how the Claw Blades work. Due to the wording I'm not certain if your attacks be be enhanced by both manufactured weapon bonuses applied to the claws and say, for instance, an Amulet of Mighty Fists. I know they can be used with Feral Combat Training as they are still a "claw" attack. I also believe for that reason that they can still be used in a flurry. Outside of that, it is sorta unclear what can apply to their use.
I'm not sure if this was part of your build, but I wanted to mention that the Master of Many Styles monk gave up flurry for the Fuse Style ability.
Also, am I understanding that you are spending three or more feats to get claws so you can enhance them with claw blades?
Wouldn't it be easier to go with another race (lizardfolk had claws in the playtest version) that already has a claw attack? And spend 1 feat for improved natural attack (presuming your GM allows it)?
Oterisk, claw blades are from advanced race guide and are a piece of racial equiptment for catfolk. I don't have the book yet, but have been told that PFSRD has parts of the book up already.
It seems pretty stupid to go human, just to take something the other race can take already. You're giving up your bonus feat; go get some real racial abilities.
I'm not getting why your taking aspect of the beast ?
it gives you a 1d4 claws attack which your getting from catfolk already.
RAW it won't give you a die bump nor will feral combat training.
Also Feral combat training
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
you've traded away flurry of blows so you can't use natural attacks in place of unarmed ones.
all it means is when making natural attacks you can apply unarmed feat effects to it. but they have to be natural attacks.
sorry man not trying to kill your buzz just trying to get everything straight
I think snake style will serve you better than panther style. Panther style eventually allows you to retaliate against opponents making an AoO against you for movement.
Snake style with snake fang allows you to make a retaliatory strike for them attacking you and failing to hit. These are based on wisdom, where panther style is based on dex.
You also have the benefit of being able to skip the middle feat in the snake style chain with MoMS, using the bonus style feats. It also allows you to deal piercing damage with unarmed strikes.
I thought about how best to utilize 20 levels of MoMS while I was making a gestalt character for a 3 person game. I eventually wound up with a MoMS monk/Dawnflower Dervish Fighter. When all was said and done, he got to make a full move plus a full attack, retaliating against anyone who attacked him and anyone who missed their attacks on him. Skirmishing didn't get them away from me, and full attacking led to my character taunting them with "Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!".
I am pretty sure you don't want to go with a regular Catfolk because of the -2 to strength, and the DD and Dragon Style being based on Strength, it seems a bad idea.
Found the Claw Blades Thread...
To be honest, if you want to optimize the heck out of Claw Blades, you would probably be better off sticking with monk. The best parts of being a Dragon Disciple is that you get more natural attacks than just claws. At character level 7, you get the bite. Since your claws are now not natural weapons, but are light slashing weapons, your bite is now at a -5 penalty to hit unless you get multiattack (which you no longer qualify for because your claws aren't natural weapons anymore). If you go to Dragon Form, you would lose access to all the feats that are dependent on your Claw Blades, because they would meld into your new form.
Sticking with the Monk can be good... Qinggong can get you barkskin for natural armor. You will also probably want to go with Flurry of Blows, because it will save you about 5 feats or so. I recommend going with a Dex and Wisdom build with Agile Claws. Of course, your whole character history has to be rewritten at this point.
If you decide to stick with the DD idea, stay away from claw blades, I would probably rate them Green until level 7, and red after that.
Catfolks don't receive -2 to Str.
Catfolks don't receive -2 to Str.
Ah, oops. Thats what I get for going from memory.
Getting some great feedback here, guys. Thanks for the help! :) Let me answer some of your questions:
Oterisk: I only had to invoke your name once, not thrice? Well... I'm glad I didn't have to go down that Beattleguise road. ;)
So yeah, you said pretty much what I had on my mind. I would recommend checking out Claw Blades and possibly even adding them to your guide. I'm actually not 100% sure how every aspect of them works. I think I may make a thread specifically for discussing this as I am questioning myself on this too.
I'm not sure if this was part of your build, but I wanted to mention that the Master of Many Styles monk gave up flurry for the Fuse Style ability.
Ah, yes. Momentary brain lapse. You are correct, sir. I think I would have to end up taking the TWF line of feats. ...which kinda sucks cause that puts me behind in feats even further.
Also, am I understanding that you are spending three or more feats to get claws so you can enhance them with claw blades?
It isn't 3 feats to get claws. It is 2 feats to get them, and 1 feat to enhance them further. Claw blades to make them easily enchantable. Although I'm not certain that is the most effective method of doing so.
Wouldn't it be easier to go with another race (lizardfolk had claws in the playtest version) that already has a claw attack? And spend 1 feat for improved natural attack (presuming your GM allows it)?
As stated in my first post this character is supposed to be descended from a Dragonne which is a cross between a Lion and a Gold Dragon. Aside from that I would also like it to be Human (or mostly so) for flavor reasons.
It seems pretty stupid to go human, just to take something the other race can take already. You're giving up your bonus feat; go get some real racial abilities.
Catfolk get -2 Wis. That is not good for a Monk based PC that also has a level of Sorcerer with the Crossblooded archetype (along with it's -2 Will save). With Int as being one of only 2 dump stats having the bonus skill points for Human is also nice. Also, whether you think it is stupid or not has no bearing on the fact that I want the character to be Human.
I'm not getting why your taking aspect of the beast ?
it gives you a 1d4 claws attack which your getting from catfolk already.
RAW it won't give you a die bump nor will feral combat training.
Ok, that is a valid question. Allow me to break down my understanding of how the feats work together for you:
Racial Heritage (Catfolk) simply allows me to take Catfolk Exemplar.
Benefit: You can take the Aspect of the Beast feat even if you do not meet the normal prerequisites. Furthermore, your catlike nature manifests in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you take this feat, and cannot change it later.Sharp Claws (Ex): If you do not have the cat's claws racial trait or the claws of the beast manifestation from the Aspect of the Beast feat, you gain the cat's claws racial trait. If you have either the cat's claws racial trait or the claws of the beast manifestation, your claw damage increases to 1d6.
Bolding mine. Ok, so if you already have Aspect of the Beast it bumps your claw damage up to 1d6.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Effects that augment unarmed strike include the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature which states:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
As Aspect of the Beast is an effect that enhance or improves a natural weapon it bumps it up a die size due to Feral Combat Training.
Basically it bumps your claws from 1d4 to 1d6 (Catfolk Exemplar) to 1d8 (Monks Unarmed Strike progression). At least that is how it works by my interpretation. I would have to run it by my DM as I don't think all of these things were considered during feat design and you need to apply a bit of logic. This seems logical, balanced and like how it should work to me.
I do realize, as you and others stated, however, that I do not get flurry when I go MoMS. So yeah, that is straight out.
Killsmith: Interesting suggestion. I don't think it works that way though. Here is why:
Benefit: While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent’s attack misses you, you can make an unarmed strike against that opponent as an attack of opportunity. If this attack of opportunity hits, you can spend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike against the same opponent.
All of the style feats are worded this way. I believe it is done that way on purpose. I understand that the MoMS allows you to take the feats without needing to meet the prerequisites, however, I believe the benefit of this is to avoid having to take Prerequisite feats like Combat Reflexes for Panther Style (although you would probably still want it for that style). The advantage of taking Panther Style is that it is the first feat in the chain whereas Snake Fang is not.
And yeah, I shot myself in the foot again as I realized that I also need to take Dragon Style to benefit from Dragon Ferocity. Piss. Ah well.
To be honest, if you want to optimize the heck out of Claw Blades, you would probably be better off sticking with monk. The best parts of being a Dragon Disciple is that you get more natural attacks than just claws. At character level 7, you get the bite. Since your claws are now not natural weapons, but are light slashing weapons, your bite is now at a -5 penalty to hit unless you get multiattack (which you no longer qualify for because your claws aren't natural weapons anymore). If you go to Dragon Form, you would lose access to all the feats that are dependent on your Claw Blades, because they would meld into your new form.
Getting an extra Bite Attack without investing anything into it isn't a reason to not go Dragon Disciple. It is a reason TO go Dragon Disciple. I shouldn't have to convince you of this. :) Yeah, the attack would be at -5 unless/until I wanted to take Multiattack. No biggy. And just because I'm wearing an item that changes the weapon type of my claws doesn't mean that I do not qualify for feats that requires natural weapons. I still have them whether I'm actively using them or not. I'm also not convinced the Claw Blades would meld into my new form if I go Dragon Form.
The way I see it the Claw Blades are weapons which do not meld when you change forms. If they aren't weapons then I think the following clause would apply:
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
So it is either a weapon that doesn't meld or an item that provides a constant bonus (that isn't a shield or armor) that doesn't meld. Right?
I appreciate the advice to stay Monk. I'm not sure if I can afford to fit it in though. I'll see when I post out my build which I plan on doing soonish. But DD seems good all the way through for a martial class IMO. 1, 4 and 7 are good for the Natural Armor boosts. 2, 5 and 8 are good for the bonus feats (which I plan on taking Power Attack, Blind Fight and Toughness). 2, 4 and 6 are good for the physical stat boosts (I dont really care about the Int boost in this build at 8). 9th is great for Wings. And although casting isn't going to be the primary focus of the build I certainly wouldn't shake a stick at the 7/10 casting progression. 10th is just kinda meh, though. For me I just can't see a level that I wouldn't want for the class outside of 10th.
That being said both 6th and 8th level Monk DO seem tasty as well. I'm just not sure. Lemme see what I can work out. I appreciate any other advice you guys have in the meantime and thank you for what you have posted so far. :)
For questions/concerns regarding Claw Blades and how they work I direct your attention to this thread.
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I figured out how to dip into Barbarian.
With the Adopted trait, you can gain this trait from Blood of Angels:
Enlightened Warrior:
You have always found it easy to
maintain inner peace and enlightenment that translate
well to the battlefield. You may take levels in monk even
while maintaining a neutral or neutral good alignment.
!!!
Why have I never heard of this trait before? Dangit, I don't want to rework my whole build. Maybe it will have to be a separate build.
BBT: Thank you and curse you. ...at the same time. =P
That explains why I couldn't find it. Thanx! :)
You know, I guess that feat fits with it being from Blood of Angels thematically too with the Crossblooded Empyreal/Draconic bloodline and all. ;)
I assume it is for Humans?
Oterisk: I only had to invoke your name once, not thrice? Well... I'm glad I didn't have to go down that Beattleguise road. ;)
Well, I'm not dead like he was. So I guess that makes sense.
So it is either a weapon that doesn't meld or an item that provides a constant bonus (that isn't a shield or armor) that doesn't meld. Right?
I can't really deny this. Claw blades would be pretty unique in being a weapon that can transcend Dragon Form. Is it worth it to take a -2 penalty to your claws, -5 penalty to your other primary natural attacks, -10 to your secondary natural attacks and spending 3-4 feats and investing in an additional stat to get 3 extra attacks at a -7 -7 -12 penalty?
I wouldn't do it.
When I get around to updating my guide to the ARG, I don't know if I would give it more than an orange rating. Can you do it? Sure. Should you? I wouldn't recommend it. You can't damage things you can't hit. I also get discouraged when I get 9 attacks in a round and less than half of them hit each round. If you don't, more power to you.
When you aren't in Dragon Form, it might be worth it if you have dragon ferocity and feral combat training and TWF and Double Slice and ITWF and Claw Pounce and Improved Natural Attack. Although just the first two feats there would give you some sweet damage bonuses to just the regular claw attacks without the need for iterative attacks and penalties to your other natural attacks. I might be looking into that further.
New Advice:
Start off with 4 levels of Unarmed Fighter, then one level of sorc, 8-10 levels of DD.
Interrupt with a 5th level of Unarmed Fighter when you can afford (fingerless, heh) Gloves of Dueling for a static +3 bonus to all natural attacks that stacks with AoMF. At 5th level, you do 2x Str damage on your first claw attack, and 1 1/2x Str damage on your second. Your bite will do 1 1/2x as well at 7th level giving you a major damage bonus. I think that Power attack would work with a +3 bonus for every -1 to one of your claws, possibly both, depending on interpretation or how generous your GM is. It wouldn't do this for your claw blades, so take that into account.
Higher BAB means more damage, I actually want to put this build into a DPR Olympics thread and see how well it does.
Feats:
1. Racial Heritage: Catfolk
Catfolk Exemplar
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Dragon Style
2. Weapon Focus: Claws
3. Feral Combat Training
4. Weapon Specialization: claws
5. Dragon Ferocity
7. Power Attack
Improved Initiative or Toughness
A 10th level character with this build has a 28STR, also is a 4th level caster and when power attacking attacks at a +18 +18 +17 for 1d6+33 1d6+28 1d6+28 without buffs. And it only gets better with Form of the Dragon.
At this point, claw blades give you a average +1 to damage, and you might be able to afford +2 blades instead of a +1 AoMF. Weapon specialization and a better to hit number make up for the difference in damage and you still don't have enough BAB for iterative attacks, not until level 8 or 9 with your build, so it isn't worth it to take claw blades until after that time, even if you are optimizing for it instead of taking my advice here. If you are using this character in an AP, that's more than half the game, and in my mind still isn't worth it.
A 6th level of unarmed fighter at level 15 or 17 can get you both TWF and ITWF at once and makes it worth it in my mind to take claw blades at this point. You have the BAB to make it happen, so it gets good, especially if you take Claw Pounce at level 13. Save up and get some nice ones, I'd make mine out of adamantine.
Of course, I would rather take one level of MoMS and get Crane Wing instead after getting the sweet bonuses from .
If you would rather stick with the monk route, you should ignore my level 4 suggestion (because you wouldn't be getting that bonus combat feat) and you should still do alright. The +4 to hit and +5 or so to damage with the extra BAB and weapon training makes a significant case to the contrary, but if you go the monk route getting crane wing and negating a melee attack a round and getting better saves, that works too.
That is a good build, Oterisk. :) And I had considered it as well. Unarmed Fighter does bring a lot to the table, but so does Monk. For an unarmed natural attack based character like this I would prefer to go unarmored as well. Embrace the natural nature, if you will. There is nothing saying both builds are not valid. At this point it is more of a flavor issue. And, to be clear I would like to use both Monk and Unarmed Fighter in my build. Lemme give it a try and see what I can come up with.
Human
Monk levels are all Master of Many Styles
Fighter levels are all Unarmed Fighter
Sorcerer is all Crossblooded: Draconic/Empyreal
1 - Monk 1: Fuse Style, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Racial Heritiage: Catfolk (Human), Catfolk Exemplar (1st), Dragon Style (Monk bonus)
2 - Monk 2: Evasion, Dragon Ferocity (Monk bonus)
3 - Fighter 1: Crane Style (bonus), Weapon Focus: Claws (3rd)
4 - Fighter 2: Harsh Training, Crane Wing (bonus)
5 - Fighter 3: Tough Guy, Feral Combat Training (5th)
6 - Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization: Claws (bonus)
7 - Sorcerer 1: Bloodline Powers, Cantrips, Eschew Materials, Crane Riposte (7th)
8 - Fighter 5: Weapon Training
9 - Dragon Disciple 1: Blood of Dragons, +1 Natural Armor, Dodge (9th)
10 - Dragon Disciple 2: Ability boost (Str +2), Bloodline Feat: Power Attack, Dragon Bite
11 - Dragon Disciple 3: Breath Weapon, Deflect Arrows (11th)
12 - Dragon Disciple 4: Ability boost (Str +2), natural armor increase (+1)
13 - Dragon Disciple 5: Blindsense 30 ft., Bloodline Feat: Toughness, Improved Natural Attack: Claws (13th)
14 - Dragon Disciple 6: Ability boost (Con +2)
15 - Dragon Disciple 7: Dragon form (1/day), natural armor increase (+1), (15th)
16 - Dragon Disciple 8: Ability boost (Int +2), Bloodline Feat: Blind Fight
17 - Dragon Disciple 9: Wings, (17th)
18 - Monk 3: Fast movement, maneuver training, still mind
19 - Monk 4: Ki pool (magic), slow fall 20 ft., (19th)
20 - Monk 5: High jump, purity of body
Ok, so I didn't pick out feats from 15th level on as I have to look into them more to see what would be best. Suggestions are welcome.
I also decided against using Claw Blades for this build as I am bothered and confused by some of their mechanics. For instance, while I could have the character use a single Claw Blade on one hand and then pick up Multiattack he could make all of his iterative attacks with that hand and then follow up with his natural claw attack with the other hand and even a bite attack when he has it available with the other hand. This would result in more attacks as he would get iteratives. However, if I actually wanted to use two Claw Blades then I would need to invest in the Two Weapon Fighting chain of feats to get the true benefit out of them and that is too heavy of an investment for a build that is already feat heavy.
I didn't bother switching out any of the later Monk abilities via Qinggong Monk to pick out which is best. I considered going with Monk levels rather than Fighter levels 3-5 but Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training seemed better than a higher die size of damage and some so-so class abilities.
I considered trying to fit in Barbarian levels for the awesome Savage Barbarian/Wild Rager build that takes advantage of bonus attacks gained safely with a high Will save and a bonus to AC. The build doesn't really have room for it in the higher levels but it might be good to sub that in after getting 4th level of Dragon Disciple for 3 levels and then returning back to Dragon Disciple. In fact, that is probably better than the build I have posted above. However, it requires the Adopted Trait that is in a resource I do not have available for me. I also feel like I'm stretching the character's blood a bit thin by having him already be descended from a Gold Dragon, Lion, Human, Celestial (via Empyreal) and then have him be adopted on top of that. ...although being adopted by Aasimars doesn't seem very far out in left field if you consider his lineage. Hm.
I didn't include ability scores here but I can tell you that it would focus on Strength more than anything followed by Wis and then Dex and Con tied for 3rd place. I would be tanking Cha and Int as the build is already fairly MAD.
I also didn't include skills (as they are mostly prerequisites or to taste with few to spare) or equipment. Any suggestions in these or any other area of the build are welcome. I look forward to hearing comments. I'll post more on how the build ends up later.
Ok, new plan. I'm going to plan this out with the Barbarian levels intact. This will be with using Savage Barbarian/Wild Rager archetypes.
1 - Monk 1: Fuse Style, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Racial Heritiage: Catfolk (Human), Catfolk Exemplar (1st), Dragon Style (Monk bonus)
2 - Monk 2: Evasion, Dragon Ferocity (Monk bonus)
3 - Fighter 1: Crane Style (bonus), Weapon Focus: Claws (3rd)
4 - Fighter 2: Harsh Training, Crane Wing (bonus)
5 - Fighter 3: Tough Guy, Feral Combat Training (5th)
6 - Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization: Claws (bonus)
7 - Sorcerer 1: Bloodline Powers, Cantrips, Eschew Materials, Crane Riposte (7th)
8 - Fighter 5: Weapon Training
9 - Dragon Disciple 1: Blood of Dragons, +1 Natural Armor, Dodge (9th)
10 - Dragon Disciple 2: Ability boost (Str +2), Bloodline Feat: Power Attack, Dragon Bite
11 - Dragon Disciple 3: Breath Weapon, Deflect Arrows (11th)
12 - Dragon Disciple 4: Ability boost (Str +2), natural armor increase (+1)
13 - Barbarian 1: Uncontrolled Rage, Improved Natural Attack: Claws (13th)
14 - Barbarian 2: Rage Power: Animal Fury, Wild Fighting
15 - Barbarian 3: Naked Courage, (15th)
16 - Dragon Disciple 5: Blindsense 30 ft., Bloodline Feat: Toughness
17 - Dragon Disciple 6: Ability boost (Con +2), (17th)
18 - Dragon Disciple 7: Dragon form (1/day), natural armor increase (+1)
19 - Dragon Disciple 8: Dragon Disciple 8: Ability boost (Int +2), Bloodline Feat: Blind Fight, (19th)
20 - Dragon Disciple 9: Wings
Ok, so I'd like to take a cross section of this character at 15th level. It seems like a good level to me.
His stats at that level will be at:
Str: 18 starting, +2 racial, +4 Dragon Disciple, +3 from levels, +4 item = 31 for a +10 modifier
Fort: 3 Monk, +4 Fighter, +3 Barbarian, +2 Dragon Disciple = 12 without ability and resistance modifiers
Ref: 3 Monk, +1 Fighter, +1 Barbarian, +1 Dragon Disciple = 6 without ability and resistance modifiers
Will: 3 Monk, +1 Fighter, +1 Barbarian, +2 Dragon Disciple = 7 without ability and resistance modifiers
You can bet on around a +4 - +6 ability modifier and a +3 resistance modifier around that level so it would likely be around a 19, 13, 16 for saves.
Hit Dice would be: 2d8 (9) +5d10 (27.5) +7d12 (45.5) for an average of 82 HP before Con. Con bonus should be around a +5 modifier so that would be about +65 for a total of 147 HP before raging.
AC would be: 10 +4 Dex, +5 Wis, +2 Natural, +4 Armor (from Mage Armor if nothing else), +1 Dodge, +2 Fighting Defensively, +1 Naked Courage = 29
That AC is without considering any magic items aside from ability boosting items for Dex and Con which will be a priority for the character. This does not include a likely +3 deflection bonus, +1 insight bonus or +4 shield bonus from the Shield spell, or +1 bonus from Monk's Robes. This would likely push his AC up to around 37. He also automatically dodges the first melee and ranged attack at him per round and riposts the first melee attack.
Attack would be at BAB +11, +10 Str, +3 Weapon Training (with Gloves of Dueling), +5 Greater Magic Fang, -2 Power Attack, -2 Fighting Defensively, +1 Weapon Focus = +26
Damage would be: 2d6 (1d6 Unarmed Strike +Catfolk Exemplar +Improved Natural Attack) +20 Str (1.5 Str from primary natural attacks, +.5 Str from Dragon Ferocity), +5 Greater Magic Fang, +6 Power Attack, +2 Weapon Specialization = 33 for an average of 40 damage.
These attacks are calculated before Raging or any other magical enhancements such as those added from an Amulet of Mighty Fists. He also can get a bonus attack while Raging Wild Fighting and another bonus bite attack from Animal Fury and his Draconic bloodline power. This is not to mention the riposte attack or any other AoOs.
I'm thinking the build looks pretty good. Did I miss anything there? Further suggestions on feats? TWF? Extra Rage? Aspect of the Beast? Double Slice?
Just a couple things...
1. Barbarian doesn't stack with Monk unless you take the Martial Artist Archetype.
2. The Master of Many Styles Archetype can't be taken with the Martial Artist Archetype as they both replace Perfect Self. (I know you will never get that far, but that's RAW.)
3. The Unarmed Fighter Archetype gives you a free style feat at level one that allows you to ignore prerequisites. It does not say anywhere that he can ignore prerequisites on any other bonus feat after first level. That's why it is best to take your first level as Unarmed Fighter, then two levels of MoMS and then go with more levels of Unarmed Fighter after that.
4. 10th level of DD is way better if you aren't going with claw blades for several reasons: Robes of Arcane heritage will give you your 15th level bloodline power. Ascension is pretty cool, and wings increases your fly speed to 90 feet. Secondly, you want your form of the dragon if you rely on your natural attacks because it gives you much more damage potential. FotD 2 twice a day is much better than FotD1 once a day because of a extra bonus to strength and the 1.5 damage primary tail slap.
3. Three levels of Monk and Monk's Robe can get you 1d10 damage on your claws, (2d8 when enlarged). Monk's robe and Robes of Arcane Heritage could stack in one garment if you pay 1.5 the price for the monk robe according to the Crafting Rules.
4. A closer reading of Feral Combat Training tells me that the feat only works on the "selected" natural weapon. It lists in the prerequisites that Weapon Focus with a "selected" natural weapon is necessary to take the feat. This means you only get your bonuses to damage for natural weapons that you took the Weapon Focus feat for. You would have to take Weapon Focus: Bite or Tail Slap to get it to work with those natural attacks.
5. You don't wan't Aspect of the beast because any natural attacks that qualify for your Feral Combat Training get your unarmed strike damage instead. Aspect of the Beast would require you to take two levels of Ranger, which would hurt your build.
6. Claw Blades would be the only reason to take TWF, I already told you how I feel about that.
7. I think a Monk 7/ Fighter 2/ Sorc 1/ DD 10 is a good build. You lose weapon training, but your claws could do (with improved natural attack) 4d6 when enlarged. Monk 8/Fighter 1 isn't bad either if you have room for more style feats.
8. Monk 3/ Fighter 6/Sorc 1/ DD 10 is my favorite though, with Weapon Training, 3d8 (with improved natural attack) and 15 BAB at level 20.
1. Barbarian doesn't stack with Monk unless you take the Martial Artist Archetype.
There is another way. It was mentioned above by Blackbloodtroll. It is the Enlightened Warrior trait from Blood of Angels with the Adopted trait for Aasimar.
2. Unneeded due to 1.
3. Master of Many Styles also allows you to take Style feats without meeting the prereqs. There is something important to note here though; if you take a Style feat that is further down the chain in a Style without first taking the initial Style feat, the others do not work. For instance, if you take Dragon Ferocity without taking Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity does not function. This is due to the wording of the feat. They all start by saying, "When using <insert name of style here>, ...". So if you are not using that style, you can not use the subsequent feats. The advantage of not needing to fulfill prereqs helps with taking feats like Crane Style without needing Dodge first. Or Crane Wing without needing to meet the BAB or Monk level requirements.
4. I had not considered Robes of Arcane Heritage. I would have to get them comboed with my Monk's Robes if I were to get them. It is worth considering but I would also rather not give up any level further up the line. Hm.
5. Ah, yes. I forgot the prereqs. Nice catch, thank you. Thankfully it also isn't in the build yet.
6. You can Two Weapon fight with Unarmed Strikes as well. Just not in a flurry. But since this build does not get flurry, that is not a concern. It also stacks with the extra attack from Wild Fighting.
7. I did consider those comboes. Particularly Monk 8/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1 as this would allow triple instant styles.
8. For 7 and 8, how are you calculating the natural attack/unarmed damage increase? I'm not saying your doing it wrong or anything but I have been discussing this very issue over in this thread. The natural attack chart and the Monk unarmed strike chart are not the same. Also the Monk Chart doesn't go past Large size which is problematic if you assume Improved Natural Attack + Enlarge Person type effects. Personally, I would advance once along the size column on the Monk chart and then advance along the level row from there out. But I would not be making this decision based on info from RAW, it is just my best guess with the info I have.
1-2. Oh. Well, whatever floats your boat.
3. MoMS allows you to ignore prerequisites for the bonus feats you acquire, not the ones you pick up through leveling. Unarmed Fighter allows you to ignore prerequisites with your first level bonus feat. You can only ignore prerequisites on those particular feat slots. That's what I am saying. I know MoMS allows you to ignore prerequisites, but if you look closely, it only allows you to ignore them on the bonus feats at 1,2,6 etc.
4. I'm just saying, getting FoTD2 is worth it. You won't lose any BAB, you will gain 4th level slots, you can spend a feat called Expanded Arcana to pick up a good 4th level spell, like Dimension Door. You haven't used all your feats anyway.
5. groovy.
6. FotD2 is better than TWF IMO. You jump right up to 6 Natural attacks, 4 primary, 2 that get 1.5 str damage without Dragon Ferocity. Of course, if you are just using unarmed strikes with iteratives instead of your claws, you don't have to invest in weapon focus claws and Feral Combat Training at all. But the idea of that just makes me feel dirty...
7-8. I took the unarmed strike damage, took it to the improved natural attack column, and went up two spots. Of course, now that I think of it, it may not stack at all. There is certainly that interpretation as well. I will have to think about that.
Well, I probably make characters differently then many do. I like coming up with a concept and then building as effectively towards that concept as I can whether that concept is particularly effective or not. That being said I think I can make this work fairly well.
With your analogy I can make a few things fit.
Gaining a natural attack with Racial Heritage (Catfolk) + Catfolk Exemplar allows me to qualify for Aspect of the Beast. Monk gives a starting unarmed strike of 1d6. With Aspect of the Beast and Feral Combat Training I believe that would bump it up a die size. I know that I could do this with Improved Natural Attack as well but I haven't run the idea past my prospective DM yet and I know some people don't like monster feats on PCs. This is a completely RAWable possibility. And if he allows Improved Natural attack I could take that too.I'm not entirely certain on how the Claw Blades work. Due to the wording I'm not certain if your attacks be be enhanced by both manufactured weapon bonuses applied to the claws and say, for instance, an Amulet of Mighty Fists. I know they can be used with Feral Combat Training as they are still a "claw" attack. I also believe for that reason that they can still be used in a flurry. Outside of that, it is sorta unclear what can apply to their use. If you have an awesome rider effect (energy drain on a bite), FCT with levels of monk is amazing.
That doesn't work. Unarmed strikes and natural attacks are two completely different entities. FCT allows you to use a chosen natural attack as a monk weapon, and to be used with feats that include IUS as a prereq. The monk US progression doesn't work for the same reasons you don't get to increase the damage die of a monk weapon, they aren't unarmed strikes, just like natural weapons aren't unarmed strikes. The last part of FCT is there to allow you to use things like magic weapon (which wouldn't normally work on a claw attack). The only way you're going to get your claw damage up to 1d8 is through improved natural attack (claw) or a size increase right off the bat.
The benefit you are getting with FCT is any extra effects delivered via the natural attack (poison, grab, trip) that normally only occurs once or twice per natural attack routine can come into play as many times as you can attack with FoB. It's a trade off in some cases, your natural attack damage with rider effect OR your Unarmed Strike damage. If you have a pidly natural attack with no extra effects riding on it, FCT is actually a really sub par option.