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I'm looking to make a cleric of LG or NG alignment for Pathfinder Society. I was looking at probably worshiping either Sarenrae or Iomedae, as they seem most inclined to send a human cleric out to smite evil, though Sarenrae would stop and give the evil-doers a chance at redemption before smiting them.
I was originally drawn to Sarenrae for the fire domain, as I like the idea of getting blasting spells like Burning Hands and Fireball. And as much as that Fire Bolt will suck at higher levels, it looks like it could be a nice little fallback ranged weapon at low level. Also, Sarenrae emphasizes scimitar use, and has a religious trait in the Advanced Players Guide that gives +2 damage on crits with a scimitar (18-20 crit range), so that could be a solid start for a melee build.
I don't want to focus overly much on healing with this character, but I realize that any good cleric will have decent healing and be expected to use it, even without putting anything into it. So it seems to me that 13-14 cha and selective channeling are pretty much mandatory, just for the sake of being able to heal my group after the dragon breathes on the whole group of us, without helping the dragon.
But I realize that I might be trying to do too much, between healing, melee, and blasting, and that's completely ignoring the many buff/debuff spells that clerics get. I realize that if I spread myself out too much, I'll end up being mediocre at everything.
So I guess my main question is whether it's really possible to be a decent blaster and melee cleric, or should I pick one and skip the other? Actually, my initial image for my character was primarily a melee fighter who had some blasting to fall back on, rather than trying to split the two equally. But then, does that make the fire domain a bad pick, since I'm taking it just for the couple of blasting spells? Would I be better off sticking to stuff like glory and good domains for the buff type spells/abilities? For that matter, what do you all think of the Heroism subdomain? That one looked pretty good to me.
Also, I was thinking of just going 16 wisdom (14 +2 racial) in order to have the extra points for elsewhere. Since Pathfinder Society only goes to level 12, that will be high enough to get 6th level spells. That way, I can get my 13 or 14 cha for selecting channeling, and put the rest of my points in str, con, and dex for melee. I really don't want to dump int, since clerics get so few skill ranks to begin with, so that leaves me with no real dump stat. I figure I can live with the slightly reduced DC on my spells if I focus on buffs rather than debuffs, so I won't be casting many spells that give saving throws. Buffing myself instead of debuffing the enemy seems like a better fit for a melee cleric, anyway.
So, anyone have any thoughts? Any recommendations for traits, feats, spells, or domains to focus on? I'm fairly new to Pathfinder and this is my first cleric, so no advice is too obvious for me.
Thoughts: if you're not using save or suck spells, I'd go to 14 wis max. Throw your racial in strength. If all you need is level 6 spells, PFS allows you to pick and choose loot basically, so you can guarantee getting a +2 wis item instead. Saves you some point buy on your strength, or boosts your melee prowess, either way.
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Fromper, unless you're prepared to spend in excess of half you cash on armor bonuses, ignore everybody recommending you make a tank with high strength/low INT/mediocre WIS/dumped CHA/etc. -- What works in a home-game at high-level, or on a DPR calc table, typically does not work in PFS when you're at a table where you may be playing with many people who don't know you or your character, let along your PC's strengths and weaknesses. "Party synergy"? Fuggetabotit -- you are looking out for yourself; and you are not the guy who'll be going toe-to-toe with the BBEM with five attacks.
Simple fact: clerics are not front-line tanks. If you try it in PFS at Tier 6+, you'll get your face ripped off -- especially if you're a good "aura" cleric that every evil-aligned monster will seek out first (and you make it easy if you move up front and stand next to the barbarian who has three times your hitpoints...so the evil critters all hosebag you and ignore him because nothing tastes better to evil than Sarenrae shish kabob).
#1 cause of TPKs in PFS at higher levels: The cleric goes down, then everybody else goes down because the cleric went down. If that happens, more times than not it's because the cleric was under the erroneous impression that he was a fighter.
-- Now you can certainly try to tank (and heaven knows, almost everybody does): plate armor, heavy proficiency, shield, yadda-yadda = move like a snail and have lousy skills. You feel like a fighter who traded all his feats for healing (but can't Swift lay-on his own injuries like a paladin), and eventually you think to yourself, "This really blows; clerics suck!" This souring opinion usually comes at about the point where you're $20k into armor bonuses that you increasingly discover are worthless against traps, rays and maneuvers...and which lead to you drowning in sewer filth next to an otyugh under the pit trap you fell through and now you're dying because you can't make a Swim check because you listened to people who told you INT wasn't important for a cleric (Swim isn't your class skill, you didn't put points in it, and you're wearing heavy armor for hideous check penalties, which also apply to your CMD when the monster grapples you, etc, not that you had a chance with such horrible DEX anyway).
But the problem wasn't the class; it was the execution. You tried to be a fighter; and it didn't work.
Clue in the form of a question: what is the most damaging and "easy" single attack that a cleric can make? If you answered, "hit it with a +3 magic weapon", go sit on a stool in a corner wearing a dunce-cap. If you answered "touch-attack with a charged-up Inflict spell," help to yourself to a see-gar out of me box here.
= = = = = =
Now imagine, instead of a snail in a spam-can, you're a halfling on a critter and have the Animal domain (to keep the critter up to snuff), and use Ride By Attack to zip all over the place planting 3d8+level touch-attack Inflict Serious right where they're needed, and can then boogie out of the enemy's full-attack zone. Put yourself on a cheetah, and watch monks cry to wish they could move so fast. ("Oh, but you're not making a full-attack!, protest the DPR-weenies, who should be ignored because they are overlooking the fact that a cleric is not built to take a BBEM's rebound full-attack, and they are also not "hip" to the generally more dangerous nature of PFS module adversaries versus those in the 15pt build story-arc campaigns. So, ignore them and concentrate on making something that can win tit-for-tat wars of attrition while generally saying out of harm's way.)
Feats: the absolute numeral-uno choice for any cleric who channels positive energy and who didn't dump their charisma like a fool is....Selective Channeling. Know it, use it, love it.
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So I guess my main question is whether it's really possible to be a decent blaster and melee cleric, or should I pick one and skip the other? Actually, my initial image for my character was primarily a melee fighter who had some blasting to fall back on, rather than trying to split the two equally. But then, does that make the fire domain a bad pick, since I'm taking it just for the couple of blasting spells? Would I be better off sticking to stuff like glory and good domains for the buff type spells/abilities? For that matter, what do you all think of the Heroism subdomain? That...
It is not going to work. When you try focusing on all of them. You will never be good enough at any of them to work at higher level. So pick one blaster, or melee. Yes the fire domain is a bad choice for ether type it dose have some nice ability's. They are mostly effective at lower level. Clerics do not make a very good blaster caster because of there spell list. And because of there spell list and what it has on it. You can make a very good casting cleric or melee cleric.
1: Focus on what you want. Do not spread your self out.
2: Reach weapons are your friend. Try and not get to close to what your fighting.
3: Have a back up plan to get out of there threated area. Never count on other players to use good tactics.
And one last thing if your going to make a battle cleric. Oracle of Battle dose a much better job of making the divine melee work. IMO
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2: Reach weapons are your friend. Try and not get to close to what your fighting.
Reach weapons are not a cleric's friend because they trick the cleric into thinking that being 10' from a BBEM is not a very wrong place to be. It's turn: 5'; claw/claw/rend/bite/sting/poison/grab...uhm....
There are a lot of PFS mods in which an encounter consists of a single extremely vicious monster. Said monsters are exceptionally efficient at weeding out non-fighters who try to go toe-to-toe.
2: Reach weapons are your friend. Try and not get to close to what your fighting.Reach weapons are not a cleric's friend because they trick the cleric into thinking that being 10' from a BBEM is not a very wrong place to be. It's turn: 5'; claw/claw/rend/bite/sting/poison/grab...uhm....
There are a lot of PFS mods in which an encounter consists of a single extremely vicious monster. Said monsters are exceptionally efficient at weeding out non-fighters who try to go toe-to-toe.
Find myself agreeing with Mike, here.
Clerics are great party buffers and support. If you're looking for something more melee-focused, you might try a battle oracle or a paladin.
A cleric acting as a fighter often requires buffing rounds: your standard Divine Favor, divine this and the other weapon spells and feats. This can make archery not a bad choice (though you'll run into some issues with the attribute distribution, and may have issues when it comes to moving in and out of combat when it comes to healing).
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In my experience it is normally bad tactical decisions on part of the cleric that gets them in trouble. More then any other thing out there. This is true with all characters no matter what the class. Almost every time there is a problem with the cleric getting in a tight spot there was a way to avoid it. Reach weapons help avoid the tight spots it dose not remove them.
Combat heavy divine casters are my favorite type of character to play. I have come up with allot of ways to get around most of there pit fall's. It is impossible to pass on the experience. Only some of the best ways in how to make that type of character. After that it's on them to learn how to make it work.
By far the best character class for making a melee divine caster is Oracle of Battle. I have not made a cleric sense the oracle came out. There unique ability's make them the best for long work days. Clerics can be made to do more bursting damage then the oracle, but the longer the work day the better the oracle is in this role. Combined with enlarge person at level 2. And no more taking a 5ft step to get in on a reach weapon.
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So it sounds like the fire domain just isn't very popular. Really, the only thing it's good for is getting wizard blasting spells (burning hands, fireball, etc), and it sounds like the idea of a cleric trying to be a blaster just shouldn't be tried.
But then, people say the cleric shouldn't be in melee, so if I'm hanging back, then wouldn't throwing a fireball be more effective than shooting arrows?
I probably should have been clearer in my first post in pointing out that I do understand that my character will be a healer/buffer more than direct damage dealer. When I say that I want to be decent at melee or blasting, I mean by cleric standards, not that I want to compete with a fighter/barbarian for melee power or compete with a wizard/sorcerer for blasting power.
So assuming I still want to be a LG or NG human cleric of Sarenrae or Iomedae (there's a specific reason I'm starting from this basis), what would everyone recommend?
I'm still leaning towards Sarenrae and wielding a scimitar, even if I don't use go with fire domain, which was my initial reason for choosing her. Sarenrae is one of the few dieties who takes her choice of preferred weapon very seriously, so I think scimitar is pretty much mandatory for her worshipers, even if they stick to primarily ranged combat. But I still say I'd rather be in melee, right next to (or frequently behind) the allies I'm likely to be healing and buffing, rather than staying in back with the archers and casters.
What ranged weapons do clerics in Pathfinder usually use? I'm still relatively new to the game and haven't been in a group with a cleric yet, so I really don't know much about how they play. But I have enough D&D experience to know that everyone should have at least one melee and one ranged weapon with them at all times.
But this thread does have me thinking that I should probably stick to the support role that clerics are so good at, and just take part in the actual fighting when I'm not too busy with healing and buffing the group's barbarians and fighters.
What domains do you all recommend? Glory and Good domains look pretty good for various buffs, and the +2 DC on channeling against undead from the Glory domain is a nice little bonus. I'm still looking at maybe the Heroism sub-domain of Glory, but I haven't decided for sure. Healing domain seems unnecessary, since clerics get so much healing already from spontaneous casting and channeling. Though looking at the Restoration sub-domain, it looked tempting until I realized it ditched the Healing domain's most important spell (Breath of Life). Both Sarenrae and Iomedae get the Sun domain, which seems pretty weak, along with its sub-domains. Iomedae gets War and its Tactics sub-domain, which just don't seem quite as good as Glory and Good.
So other than the obvious 16+ wis, 13+ cha, and Selective Channeling, what do you all recommend for stats, feats, traits, etc?
healing domain is rather good with its lvl 6 empower healing spells.
Also fire domain grants fire resistance and that is always useful.
You could also build your cleric with the dervish dace feat and weapon finess.
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In my experience it is normally bad tactical decisions on part of the cleric that gets them in trouble. More then any other thing out there. This is true with all characters no matter what the class. Almost every time there is a problem with the cleric getting in a tight spot there was a way to avoid it. Reach weapons help avoid the tight spots it dose not remove them.
Combat heavy divine casters are my favorite type of character to play. I have come up with allot of ways to get around most of there pit fall's. It is impossible to pass on the experience. Only some of the best ways in how to make that type of character. After that it's on them to learn how to make it work.
By far the best character class for making a melee divine caster is Oracle of Battle. I have not made a cleric sense the oracle came out. There unique ability's make them the best for long work days. Clerics can be made to do more bursting damage then the oracle, but the longer the work day the better the oracle is in this role. Combined with enlarge person at level 2. And no more taking a 5ft step to get in on a reach weapon.
While this is an excellent post, it side-steps a salient point: A good-deity or good-aligned cleric's primary contribution to his party is his ability to Channel mass-heal. -- It's free and automatically scales with level. Additionally, he can auto-convert his spells, and so is not appreciably dissimilar to a spontaneous spellcaster in that regard.
You can easily design an exceptionally capable "divine gish" in this game -- but they are not clerics. (A paladin is more "cleric" than an oracle is.) Are battle oracles better than slug clerics in heavy armor who butcher their wisdom and charisma to futility pursue sword-and-board? Yeah...but that's not saying much.
When a Tier 10 mod slams the PCs with multiple Empowered AoE damage, you will greatly appreciate the usefulness of Channeling as opposed to having to pick-and-choose who is left unattended for a round or more (and who may then croak when the bad guys lob again next turn). -- If you want to play a divine caster who doesn't waste a lot of time on healing, the class with the ability to toss out an 8d6 spread at 12th is the one you want in those deadly PFS retirement arcs.
Dude, Focus on Buffs first, Then Melee and Heal as a secondry function.
Let me splain some stuff.
1. Imodae is a better choice for this role. Why HEROISM SUBDOMAIN.
That gem gives you some awesome domain spells (Some of which a normally Pally spells.)
Shield of Faith, Bless weapon (auto confirm crits? yes please), Heroism, Holy Smite, Righteous Might, Gtr Herosim.
The real kicker is at 8th level you get an Aura of Herosim that gets all allies and only takes a SWIFT action to activate!!!
2. Now the Glory (Herosim) Subdomain adds +2 to your channel DC's and theirs a trait that will add another +1. Take selective channeling at a Minimum and if you want Aligment Channel and you can damage undead and evil outsiders. That's a good chunk of enemies.
3. Forget the other domain, and Take Mendevan Priest Archetype. It gives you HEAVY ARMOR at 1st level, and a bonus feat at level 4,8(I suggest Alignment channel and Spell Penetration, in that order)
So now you got your Fullplate wearing, longsword swinging party buffing cleric. Look to flank and in any round your reduced speed stops you from fully closing? Cast a buff.
If you wanna cast in the same round as channel, blow a feat on Quick Channel. Action Economy! WOOO!
If you wanna do decent damage, forget the shield and two hand (or you could take quickdraw, use a quickdraw light shield, abuse free actions and STILL 2hand)
Cheers.
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Thanks for the comments, all.
Mike Schneider, as I mentioned in my first post, I was already assuming 13-14 cha with selective channeling. That just seems like the obvious mandatory first feat for any cleric. As far as I'm concerned, all the easy healing is the main reason to be a cleric. I'm just looking for stuff to do when I'm not healing people.
STR Ranger, why would I need Iomedae for that? Sarenrae gives the Heroism subdomain, too. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I was already considering Heroism. But I've noticed a few times I've looked at things in the rules and said "That looks cool!" only to discover that those with practical experience talk about it being weak for reasons I hadn't thought of, so I wanted to ask about that one here first. Glad to see you agree with my gut reaction on that one.
Also, where do you find the Mendevan Priest archetype? I checked the PRD and I don't see it in the books there.
Thanks for pointing out Quick Channel. I hadn't noticed that one before. The 5 skill ranks in Knowledge (Religion) as a prerequisite might make it tough to get, though, given how few skill ranks clerics get. Next question: If Quick Channel lets you channel energy as a move action by spending two daily channels, can you then channel as a standard action the normal way in the same round, thus spending 3 channels to do double heals in one round? Of course, this could eat up your daily uses pretty quick, so I suspect Extra Channel would end up being necessary alongside this.
Anyway, I was working on this character last night, and I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with Sarenrae, and wielding a scimitar. I discussed it with a friend of mine who knows the rules better than me, and we agreed that the Heroism subdomain looks good, so I'm sticking with that. The Good Domain has nice abilities, but the spells are somewhat redundant with Heroism, so I figured I'd probably just stick with Fire as my second domain, as originally planned. Having fire resistance and access to a couple of wizard blasting spells can't possibly hurt. But if STR Ranger can show me the Mendevan Priest archetype rules, I may reconsider that choice, because it does sound cool.
Also, now that I'm thinking more in terms of heal/buff first and direct damage second for this character, I thought of another little strategy that might be worthwhile. 12 Dex + Reactionary trait + Improved Initiative feat = +7 initiative. Why? Because I want to beat my own teammates in the initiative battle. That way, I can cast Bless (or other group buffs at higher levels) at the start of every fight, before the group spreads out too much to catch them all in range at once. And the Reactionary trait actually works well with my character's back story, so that works out nicely.
For my second trait, I'm definitely going with the Beneficent Touch trait from the Silver Crusade in Pathfinder Society. This lets me reroll all 1's when using a healing spell or channeling once per day. At high levels, when I'm rolling a ton of dice to channel heal a whole group, that could become huge quick.
Something else I looked at for my character is a buckler instead of a full shield. This way, I have a free hand for casting or wands, even with the scimitar drawn.
Other than Selective Channeling and Improved Initiative, other feats I'm looking at include Toughness and Lightning Reflexes, just because I'm not going to be much use to anyone if I get myself killed. Alignment Channel could be useful against evil outsiders, too. I was figuring 14 cha, so I didn't think I'd need Extra Channeling, but if I start in with Quick Channel and/or Alignment Channel, then maybe another two channels per day might be good to have. And then there are always standard combat feats I could take - Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Vital Strike, etc.
Mendevian Priest is in the PFSRD.
Mendevian Priest
It's out of the Inner Sea Magic book
Yeah, was posting from my phone before and forgot that sarenrae offerd the Heroism Subdomain. Go with her for more crits with the scimitar, but don't forget that only Imodaen clerics can cast GOOD HOPE. That's if a rule from Faiths of Purity is allowed for PFS.
Check out the Blade of Mercy Trait as well. Good for fighting Non Lethal.
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General toss-outs and re-assertions:
* Buffing is nice, but it doesn't stop crits and rends (and by extension, TPKs). "Rapid response" prevents PC deaths.
* Heavy armor is the most overrated stuff in the game, and it makes you overconfident.
* Healers are every sentient enemy's primary target; you're top of their list as soon as they Spellcraft you out.
* PFS is deadlier than story-arcs by a noticeable extent: the gloves come off at Tier 6. Slow-moving "tank clerics" who court full-attacks are just monster-chow to BBEMs.
* If you simply cannot be talked out of making a tank-caster, then don't mickeymouse around with crippled archetypes and instead front-load your feats and HP by taking fighter at 1st level, then multiclass cleric at 2nd for a regular two-domains & everything full-boat. You'll have one less 6th-level spell during the post-retirement final arc, but have enjoyed that extra feat, heavy armor and avoiding drowning/falling and what-not all the way since 1st.
I'm just looking for stuff to do when I'm not healing people.
In combat or out of combat?
-- Every time I've played a cleric and ended up being bored of it, it boiled down to exactly two reasons: Ineffectiveness and vulnerability in melee (even with an awesome attack) due to mobility issues (exacerbated by heavy armor) and limited number of attacks), and lousy skill-set leading to general ineffectiveness off the battlefield as well. Sure, you can in-party roleplay all you want, but succeeding on the skill check necessary to complete a faction mission is another matter.
Something else I looked at for my character is a buckler instead of a full shield. This way, I have a free hand for casting or wands, even with the scimitar drawn.
Other than Selective Channeling and Improved Initiative, other feats I'm looking at include Toughness and Lightning Reflexes, just because I'm not going to be much use to anyone if I get myself killed.
Then play a halfling or gnome. Seriously. Not only can they -- if built properly -- avoid getting splicked better than large races, in the proper frame of mind they're way more fun to play than the well-trod typical S&B heavy stomper.
"Reformed thief"
STR-07
DEX+16 halfling 20pt
CON:12
INT:12
WIS:15 (all bumps)
CHA+16
00 saves: 01 03 02 ... Traits: Armor Expert, Birthmark; Racial trait: Warslinger
01 rogu1 01 05 02 SA+1d6, Improved Initiative
02 rogu2 01 06 02 [Evasion][Talent:Fast Getaway]
03 cleri1 03 06 04 [Sarenrae:Good(Heroism)/Sun], 1st, Selective Channeling
04 cleri2 04 06 06 WIS>16
05 cleri3 04 07 06 2rd, Extra Rogue Talent: Trap Spotter
(Add +2 to all save for being a halfling and for +1 Cloak of Resistance.)
"Free" Equipment after two mods at 1st level: Wand of Magic Missile, Wand of Cure Light Wounds (purchased with prestige points).
Equipment at 5th: +1 mithral breastplate, +1 mithral buckler, darkwood light crossbow, Handy Haversack, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2, Cloak of Resistance +1
Results: INIT+8 at 4th, move speed equal to heavy armor human cleric but AC+1 versus and zero armor-check penalty and much higher Touch-AC, trade two levels of spellcasting for Evasion and ability to make Reflex saves in the first place, ability to withdraw from adjacent BBEMs with reach without taking opps, ability to notice and disable traps, much better skill set with about twice the skillpoints overall by 12th, ability to UMD with a high charisma and Touch of Glory domain power.
Dotting for the awesome advice.
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General toss-outs and re-assertions:
* Buffing is nice, but it doesn't stop crits and rends (and by extension, TPKs). "Rapid response" prevents PC deaths.
* Heavy armor is the most overrated stuff in the game, and it makes you overconfident.
* Healers are every sentient enemy's primary target; you're top of their list as soon as they Spellcraft you out.
* PFS is deadlier than story-arcs by a noticeable extent: the gloves come off at Tier 6. Slow-moving "tank clerics" who court full-attacks are just monster-chow to BBEMs.
* If you simply cannot be talked out of making a tank-caster, then don't mickeymouse around with crippled archetypes and instead front-load your feats and HP by taking fighter at 1st level, then multiclass cleric at 2nd for a regular two-domains & everything full-boat. You'll have one less 6th-level spell during the post-retirement final arc, but have enjoyed that extra feat, heavy armor and avoiding drowning/falling and what-not all the way since 1st....stuff about halfling build snipped...
While I appreciate the halfling rogue/cleric build suggestion, it's not what I'm after with this character. I may consider multi-classing if there's a good reason, but I'm definitely starting with a human cleric, because of the detailed backstory that I already have for this character.
I definitely see your point about the heavy armor. I'll probably go the same direction with armor that I'm going with my barbarian - mithral breastplate. It's the best medium armor, and being mithral makes it light for purposes of speed modifier, so it won't slow me down.
I didn't know that PFS became deadlier at higher levels. My local PFS group doesn't have anyone over 4th level, and my barbarian isn't quite 4th yet (one more adventure), so we're all pretty new to this. Actually, I've seen comments on these forums about PFS being too easy and not deadly enough, but that might just be from people who have only played at lower levels and not stuck with it to the higher, deadlier levels.
So, what would be necessary for the "rapid response" you're talking about? As I said, I was thinking Toughness and Lightning Reflexes feats just to make sure I live long enough to heal the rest of the group. Since I'm probably going Sarenrae as my diety, I was checking out the Dawnflower Sash in "Gods and Magic", which has a few magic abilities, one of which is a daily cure light wounds that can automatically trigger when the wearer hits negative HP. I probably won't have enough money and prestige to afford it until at least level 3, but it'll be nice to have.
As I said, I was thinking Toughness and Lightning Reflexes feats just to make sure I live long enough to heal the rest of the group.
I'd go with Improved Initiative over lightning reflexes. Going first for a caster is great regardless of whether you are buffing, laying down a debuff, or straight up blasting.
One thing to understand is that Mike comes from the view that most of the time you are going to games with no clear well balanced group that can be built from scratch. Mostly he's saying that if you are not mostly a band-aid you are not doing your job. Take that as you will. "Rapid Response" is a nice way of saying you will be responsible for making up for the derptastic actions of the rest of the table and will take the blame when people die. This is the lot of the healer. Take that as you will.
That being said Mike's played more PFS than I have. So while I don't agree with his opinion it is worth listening to.
So what are my thoughts?
I'm thinking Cleric Archer. Takes some feats to pull off but you don't need all of them to make it work really only about four are required. Plinking buffed arrows downrange while staying out of danger gives you safety, a meaningful contribution, and the sort of spell conservation that is infinitely helpful in the early levels.
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There is a cleric of sarenrae in my home PFS game. He lobs an ocassional fireball and is deadly with a bow. He also has selective channeling so he can heal the party from the back lines. I'll second the opinion that you are trying to spread yourself too thin. You need to be able to channel or cast cure spells to meet the expectations of your fellow PFS party members. Archery is one of the best ways to break out of the cleric as a band aid perception.
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My advice, play what you want to, and do not worry about what other players feel you need to do for them. Don't be a douche about it, but let other players know up front what you want for your Cleric, what you expect, and what you will probably not be doing, just to get that out of the way.
Ask if they have any wands of CLWs that they want you to use on them, but I wouldn't ever buy any myself, (not my job to supply them like that, they can spend their own money, just like you do). Doesn't mean I will not heal them if they are going to die, but they can spring for potions and most classes have a way to self heal to a point.
So, do whatever play style you enjoy. I'm going to disagree with the above posters that say Clerics are not Fighters or that Clerics do best when they do _______ instead of try to be front line. Not that they are wrong sometimes, but that is a bad misconception that Paizo regretibly has partially amplified. The problem isn't when Clerics do these things. The problem is when the rest of the party still expects the Cleric to drop everything and revert back to this healbot mentality, or walking buff machine. You are a player too, and that is maybe 10% of your role, more or less as you make it. You want to be a blaster, go for it. Look at things that will bump your Fire spells (spell focus Evokation, the Fire metamagic Feat (ok, not great), Widen Spell, Empower/Maximize/Quicken spell, maybe one of those I switch energy types Metamagic Feats to turn other spells into Fire spells.
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As I said, I was thinking Toughness and Lightning Reflexes feats just to make sure I live long enough to heal the rest of the group.I'd go with Improved Initiative over lightning reflexes. Going first for a caster is great regardless of whether you are buffing, laying down a debuff, or straight up blasting.
One thing to understand is that Mike comes from the view that most of the time you are going to games with no clear well balanced group that can be built from scratch. Mostly he's saying that if you are not mostly a band-aid you are not doing your job. Take that as you will. "Rapid Response" is a nice way of saying you will be responsible for making up for the derptastic actions of the rest of the table and will take the blame when people die. This is the lot of the healer. Take that as you will.
That being said Mike's played more PFS than I have. So while I don't agree with his opinion it is worth listening to.
So what are my thoughts?
I'm thinking Cleric Archer. Takes some feats to pull off but you don't need all of them to make it work really only about four are required. Plinking buffed arrows downrange while staying out of danger gives you safety, a meaningful contribution, and the sort of spell conservation that is infinitely helpful in the early levels.
About the feats, I'm assuming Selective Channeling at 1st level, with probably Improved Initiative or Toughness as my human bonus feat. I think I'm leaning towards grabbing Toughness first, just to make sure I have enough HP to survive 1st level, then getting Improved Init at level 3. I was figuring Lightning Reflexes might be worth considering eventually, if I have no higher priority feats to take, just because Reflex is the worst save for clerics.
About the party balance, that's actually less of an issue for my group that most people playing in Pathfinder Society. We have a small local group, so we actually do sometimes plan which characters to make and play based on discussions with each other and making sure to fill necessary party roles. It's only at conventions that I'll be playing with totally random parties, and I don't know how often I'll be going to any conventions.
I think with channeling 5 times per day (14 cha), I should have the group healing pretty much covered, since that hits everyone within 30 feet. Unfortunately, the cure spells are all touch. And even more unfortunately, Breath of Life, which I won't get until I can cast 5th level spells anyway, can only revive a dead character within 1 round of them dying, so I really NEED to be right up on the front line to use that one.
I'm still leaning towards melee combat over ranged weapon fighting. I know I'm not going to be as effective as a melee specialist class on the front line, but a scimitar with an 18-20 crit range and a strength bonus should do more damage than a light crossbow (no strength bonus), which is the best ranged weapon clerics get by default.
If I did hang back and fight at range most of the time, I'd probably want to stick mostly to blasting spells instead of a weapon, anyway. Fire domain gives Fire Bolt 6 times per day (16 wisdom), which is ok at low levels, along with Burning Hands and Fireball eventually. Add in Searing Light and Holy Smite once I can cast 3rd and 4th level spells respectively, and I'm actually thinking that a blasting cleric might work, if the number of battles per day were limited. I know if I'm going for spell damage, the inflict spells are better damage, but they provoke attacks of opportunity and take up spell slots that could be used for other things, so I'd rather stick to a weapon in melee.
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I didn't know that PFS became deadlier at higher levels. My local PFS group doesn't have anyone over 4th level, and my barbarian isn't quite 4th yet (one more adventure), so we're all pretty new to this. Actually, I've seen comments on these forums about PFS being too easy and not deadly enough, but that might just be from people who have only played at lower levels and not stuck with it to the higher, deadlier levels.Year 1s were cakewalks; years 2s were still easy; year 3s are a shock to the system after the earlier somnambulance. What often happens is that "noobs" are introduced to PFS by GMs running older mods at lower tier; they're often ridiculously easy. Then around when they're leveling to 5th or 6th, they "catch up" to the year 3s, play their first Tier 6-7, and get their heads ripped off.
So, what would be necessary for the "rapid response" you're talking about? As I said, I was thinking Toughness and Lightning Reflexes feats just to make sure I live long enough to heal the rest of the group.
Note that Lightning Reflexes does not help your Touch AC.
(This is why I submitted the halfling build above; he just waltzes right through the fireballs, and has a higher ref save than a human straight cleric with Lightning Reflexes. -- You don't have to be a halfling to pursue that particular build, btw.)
Aside from getting stuck next to a BBEM, traps and dangerous terrain are the other thing that do in INT-dumping heavy armor clerics in PFS: they simply don't have the skills to overcome their abysmal armor-check penalties. You will be crawling along ledges and up ropes and so forth in PFS...maybe not every mod or even every other, but enough to expose your weaknesses, and eventually the odds will catch up with you.
= = =
Anyway, what's your back-story?
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One thing to understand is that Mike comes from the view that most of the time you are going to games with no clear well balanced group that can be built from scratch.Expect PFS module play to develop along the lines of Living Greyhawk; i.e., you can goof off at Tier 1-2, and sometimes get scared and maybe even die at Tier 3-4. "Free" (bought with Prestige points) wands of CLW run out of gas at Tier 6, when a d8+1 just doesn't cut. -- At that point, you as a PC are either build to absolutely slaughter everything in sight before it can hurt you, or are spending HUGE resources on consumables, are a healer yourself, ....or you begin to refrain playing at tables without healers if you value your hide.
Mostly he's saying that if you are not mostly a band-aid you are not doing your job.
I didn't say that at all -- mostly it's about avoiding having to heal yourself as much as possible.
-- You can play a cleric like a blaster wizard, with sky-high WIS and lots of saving-throw magic. I.e, just because you can cast spells in armor while fighting in melee doesn't mean that that's the best overall strategy.
"Rapid Response" is a nice way of saying you will be responsible for making up for the derptastic actions of the rest of the table and will take the blame when people die. This is the lot of the healer. Take that as you will.Well, they might blame you if you if you advertise yourself as a healer during table-mustering, then roll high with Improved Initiative and charge the monster first thing, then get dropped by it while the patiently waiting fighter is arching his eyebrows. (I blame Paizo's cover-art for this suicidal mentality in less-than-full-BAB classes; what players don't realize is that most of those admittedly very exciting scenes are snapshots taken 1 round before Improved-Grab/Swallow-Whole. :-p )
I'm thinking Cleric Archer. Takes some feats to pull off but you don't need all of them to make it work really only about four are required.
Archer-clerics are powerful -- with the right build, and that build be high DEX.
(For what it's worth, probably the most durable healer in PFS would be a gnome cleric with the animal domain (or oracle with nature mystery) who rides a badger. Tons of HP; the mount can rage, climb and burrow, and pretty much go anywhere a horse can't. Having Ride-by Attack is like both you and the animal having the entire Spring Attack sequence. Your swing in, deliver an Inflict Serious Wounds touch-attack, then slant back out of the BBEM's full-attack zone.)
Actually if he's gonna dip 1 level for Heavy Armor (instead of dropping a domain the Mendevian Priest) he could take a level of Cavalier (order of the Dragon).
He'll still get that all important swim class skill (though drowning IS a big problem if it happens, can't say it's a regular occurance, but then I play in AP's not PFS)
plus a Mount which is pretty tough at 1st level. It can fade into the backgound in the later levels but springing for the Bonded Companion feat from seekers of secrets will keep it relevant till level 5 or 6 (Cavaliers never take Armor Check penalties to ride)
Plus the order of the dragon will let him drop a +1 to his whole parties hit, when he uses that challenge ability.
If he chooses the gendarme archetype cavalier he'll get a bonus feat (I'd pick power attack or mounted combat if he wants to use the horse) at first level just like a fighter.
Cav's also get 4 skills per level instead of 2.
Probably a much better dip than fighter.
Same bonus feat
Same armor
Better skill points
Free Mount (whether or not use actually use it)
Free order (I'd take Dragon for the party buff)
He could then go straight cleric at level 2 onwards, with the Heroism and another (looks like he wants fire) doamins.
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I didn't know that PFS became deadlier at higher levels. My local PFS group doesn't have anyone over 4th level, and my barbarian isn't quite 4th yet (one more adventure), so we're all pretty new to this. Actually, I've seen comments on these forums about PFS being too easy and not deadly enough, but that might just be from people who have only played at lower levels and not stuck with it to the higher, deadlier levels.Year 1s were cakewalks; years 2s were still easy; year 3s are a shock to the system after the earlier somnambulance. What often happens is that "noobs" are introduced to PFS by GMs running older mods at lower tier; they're often ridiculously easy. Then around when they're leveling to 5th or 6th, they "catch up" to the year 3s, play their first Tier 6-7, and get their heads ripped off.
So, what would be necessary for the "rapid response" you're talking about? As I said, I was thinking Toughness and Lightning Reflexes feats just to make sure I live long enough to heal the rest of the group.Note that Lightning Reflexes does not help your Touch AC.
(This is why I submitted the halfling build above; he just waltzes right through the fireballs, and has a higher ref save than a human straight cleric with Lightning Reflexes. -- You don't have to be a halfling to pursue that particular build, btw.)
Aside from getting stuck next to a BBEM, traps and dangerous terrain are the other thing that do in INT-dumping heavy armor clerics in PFS: they simply don't have the skills to overcome their abysmal armor-check penalties. You will be crawling along ledges and up ropes and so forth in PFS...maybe not every mod or even every other, but enough to expose your weaknesses, and eventually the odds will catch up with you.
= = =
Anyway, what's your back-story?
Yeah, I know Lightning Reflexes is just for saves. Reflex is the lowest save for clerics, which is why I thought it would be worth boosting, especially since the stuff that targets it tends to be high damage (fireball, dragon breath, etc). I should probably also consider the Dodge and Shield Focus feats for AC.
And I'm not dumping int or anything else. I realize how badly I need those skill ranks. Even with the extra skill rank every level for being human, I'll only get 3 per level with 10 int, which will be my lowest stat. Once I've got a couple of levels, and I'm happy with my HP, I may even use my favored class bonus on skill ranks once in a while instead of HP.
Here's what I was thinking for starting stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 13 (probably boost to 14 at level 4)
Int: 10
Wis: 16 (14 +2 racial)
Cha: 14
But you've got me scared enough about survival to consider switching those physical stats around, to add more points to Dex and Con for AC and HP, instead of Str, which I wanted so I'd actually be able to do some damage with the scimitar.
---
As for my character's background, that's actually a funny story, but a little long, most of which has nothing to do with this actual character.
I just returned to playing RPGs a couple of months ago after a 20+ year hiatus. I was a big D&D/AD&D player back in the 80's, before that newfangled 2nd edition stuff. Upon returning, I checked out D&D 4th edition and looked for local groups to join, and found two groups playing Pathfinder before I found a stable 4e group, so here I am.
One of those groups was starting an ongoing campaign, and I made a bard character, because it seemed like a fun class for RP purposes, and I knew nothing about the details of the game at the time. I always preferred ongoing campaigns to doing single adventures here and there, so I was actually reluctant when I was invited to join a Pathfinder Society group also, but I figured I'd give it a try.
So I threw together a barbarian character real quick for PFS, just because I figured that would be easy to build and play without much thought. I min/maxed him a little, giving him single digit mental stats to boost his physical attributes, and played him like a big, dumb brute, who goes by the nickname "Mash" (short for his battle cry: "MASH CRUSH KILL DESTROY!!!").
But his mental stats are only slightly below average (8 int and wis aren't exactly retarded range), so I figured he's really not THAT dumb, and I always want a background story for every character. So I came up with the idea that he's descended from a long line of paladins, and he rebelled against the pressure from his family by becoming a Chaotic Neutral barbarian. He has 6 older sisters, which is why his father put so much pressure on him as the only male heir, not expecting to ever have another son. Mash is a member of the Pathfinder Society because his father enrolled him in it, expecting him to follow the rest of the family in the Silver Crusade once he outgrew his rebellious youth and settled down to become a paladin (Mash went Shadow Lodge instead). And Mash plays up his low brain power, talking like an idiot even though he's really not THAT stupid, because his experiences with his father taught him that it's better to be underestimated than to have people expect things from you.
As it turns out, my Pathfinder campaign group fell apart after 2 sessions, and the Pathfinder Society group has turned out to be a great group, so I play with them almost every weekend. We've got a core group of players who are there most weeks who have level 3-4 characters, while some of the less regular attendees are still only levels 1 or 2. So we decided those of us with higher level characters should create a second character at level 1 for when we play level 1-2 adventures.
Looking at the core rules, I decided that clerics look cool in this version, so I'd try playing one. Joking around with the group one day, someone suggested that Mash's older sisters might include clerics and paladins who are in the Silver Crusade with their father, and the idea for my next character was born - she's one of Mash's older sisters. That's why she has to be human and be a good aligned crusading type of character in the Silver Crusade. I actually thought of going NG follower of Shelyn (goddess of love, art, beauty, and music) and making her a flighty, hippie-esque character. But as a guy playing a female character for the first time, I decided to avoid all the negative stereotypes of guys role playing females badly and stick to a more straightforward personality for her. This also explains why the Reactionary trait, which talks about having been bullied as a kid, is perfect for her - Mash has the Bully trait, and they're close enough in age that she would have been a frequent target (she's the youngest of his 6 older sisters).
This also leads me to think that I should consider a paladin for my 3rd PFS character. :P
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But you've got me scared enough about survival to consider switching those physical stats around, to add more points to Dex and Con for AC and HP, instead of Str, which I wanted so I'd actually be able to do some damage with the scimitar.
<survey stats, cringe at mad-statting and dumped DEX and INT>
...If you're going to be a servant of Sarenrae with a scimitar, embrace it fully and take the archetypes which pimp that weapon to the nines:
"...Known to her faithful as the Dawnflower, the Healing Flame, and the Everlight, Sarenrae teaches temperance and patience in all things. Compassion and peace are her greatest virtues, and if enemies of the faith can be redeemed, they should be. Yet there are those who have no interest in redemption, who glory in slaughter and death. From the remorseless evil of the undead and fiends to the cruelties born in the hearts of mortals, Sarenrae's doctrines preach swift justice delivered by the scimitar's edge. To this end, she expects her faithful to be skilled at swordplay, both as a form of martial art promoting centering of mind and body, and so that when they do enter battle, their foes do not suffer any longer than necessary...."
(Hat-tip to Jiggy, btw)
STR-07
DEX+16
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:15
CHA:14
Traits: Armor Expert, Birthmark
01 bard1 00 [Dawnflower Dervish:InnerSeaMagic][Dervish Dance][Battle Dance], Dodge, Extra Performance
02 cler1 00 [Crusader][Sarenrae:Glory(Heroism)][Weapon Focus:Scimitar], 1st
This particular build utilizes the Crusader archetype, which requires forfeiting a domain. I recommend ditching Fire -- I know you want it, but Glory(Heroism) is so much better, whereas Fire is superfluous. At high-level, you just Flame Strike the crap out of things anyway. Look at this way: Crusader will give you three feats which money cannot purchase, whereas you can buy scrolls or wands of fire spells and UMD them (thanks to bard).
You have Dervish Dance sans prerequisites, and can Battle Dance as a move-action for +2/+2 -- which means you're +5/+5 to attack and damage with an ordinary, non-masterwork hunk of rusty junk scimitar at 1st level (but you'll suck to high heaven with anything else, so make sure you have spares).
Tactics: First round of combat at 2nd: cast Bless as a standard and Dance as a move (while drawing your scimitar as part of that move). With a MW scimitar, you're then +8/1d6+5 attack/damage despite BAB0. You can dance 14 rounds per day.
03 cler2 01 Mobility
04 cler3 02 WIS>16, 2nd
AC at 4th: 10 +4(DEX+belt) +7(+1 mithral breastplate) +2(+1 mithral buckler*) = 23. Not bad. You afford all this by still using a MW scimitar (don't bother upgrading a MW weapon until your PFS Prestige is sufficient for a +1/XYZ weapon overall).
(*You can Dervish Dance with a buckler since it doesn't use a hand; note that Shield Focus is also the only useable freebie feat that a Crusader cleric who Dervish Dances can take at 5th.)
05 cler4 03 Selective Channeling
06 cler5 03 [Shield Focus], 3rd
07 cler6 04 Spring Attack
Main weapon: +1/keen/spellstoring adamantine scimitar.
You'll still get your face ripped off in melee from time to time, but at least you're not impotently flailing d8+3 while doing so.
08 cler7 05 4th
09 cler8 06 [Aura of Heroism], Improved Initiative
10 cler9 06 5th
11 cle10 07 [Greater Weapon Focus:Scimitar], Quicken Spell
12 cle11 09 6th
(Note that the bonuses from Battle Dance (competence), Divine Favor (luck) and Heroism (morale) all stack.)
Normally I dislike cleric archetypes which forfeit domains and spells, dislike melee w/weapons as a cleric, and dislike Dervish Dance (preferring the Agile weapon enhancement with other light weapons) -- but this particular combination is actually pretty decent. You're no fighter, but you can land some meaty smacks and live to brag about it provided you avoid taking full-attacks. Bard also provides Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Knowledge(all!), Stealth and UMD as class skills, as well as access to the bard list of spells.
You're highly mobile, highly skilled, and attack and hit harder than a standard heavy armor cleric.
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<Shrug> -- It's OK, as long as you are cognizant that you're a One Trick Pony in melee combat, and nerfed hard if unable to wield a scimitar.
(This particular builds avoids the dreaded OTP because it's pure spellcaster and even includes UMD and a domain bonus to skill-checks.)
+1 attack (+2-BAB) and +2 damage from Battle Dance is nice, but it's no different than what a fighter gets from Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, which he has at 4th level off two bonus feats if he wants them. Battle Dance front-loads 1st level, but the discrepancies zero out fast, and you're putting points into CHA (which you usually don't as a straight melee tank). At 5th, the fighter pulls ahead with Weapon Training which he can devote to an entire category of weapons. At 6th he pulls farther ahead with BAB6 and iterative attacks. At 7th he drops 15k on Gloves of Dueling and leaves you in the dust.
It's a good one-level dip for a synergistic build (such as a scimitar cleric who has other uses for charisma, and really benefits from a bard's class skill-set).
Hmm.... OT for the thread, but my picks for strongest archetypes, at least in the 1st-to-12th level PFS game, are:
* Monk [Sohei], get Flurry and Weapon Training; choose bows and you're better than a Zen archer
* Ninja, for schweet Ki pool toys
* Samurai, lots of defensive abilities and best weapons
* Fighter [Weapon Master] (you get Weapon Training at 3rd level)
* Fighter [Unbreakable] (stacked with barbarian in a half-orc)
* Alchemist (the whole class, because Mutagens stack with rage)
* Fighter [Unarmed] ...Weapon Traing in all monk weapons including exotics and natural attacks; i.e., Sohei6/F(U)6 = run screaming for the exits
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I'll have to look into the details of that.
Just for comparison, a couple of people have mentioned archer clerics, so how does that work? Since clerics aren't proficient with bows, do you use a light crossbow for that, or spend a feat getting longbow proficiency?
I'm thinking light crossbow would let me dump str, and just go with the typical point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid reload feats. With spells to buff, the crossbow could be ok. Divine Favor in particular seems nice, as a level 1 spell that gets better at level 6+.
The problem I see with dumping str as a cleric, which also applies to the dervish build above, is encumbrance. I know that mithral armor weighs half as much as normal, but you're not going to be able to afford that until at least 4th or 5th level. I just looked up the details in the Core Rulebook. With a 7 str, the weight of a mithral breastplate, mithral buckler, light crossbow, and 20 crossbow bolts is enough to put you into medium load territory. So that slows you down just as much as wearing non-mithral medium armor, and that's without any other equipment, a lot of which is heavier than people seem to realize.
My other issue with being an archer, which is part of why I'm tempted to just stick to melee, is that the cure spells are all touch spells, so the cleric still needs to be right up near the action to be an effective healer, especially since Breath of Life is only useful within 1 round of death. For straight HP healing, though, that's what channeling and selective channeling are for - that works within 30 feet, and works on the whole party at once. But it would suck to have to use that on a single party member who got clobbered, when the rest didn't need it.
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I'm thinking light crossbow would let me dump str, and just go with the typical point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid reload feats. With spells to buff, the crossbow could be ok. Divine Favor in particular seems nice, as a level 1 spell that gets better at level 6+.Divine Favor is worthless until you can cast it as a Quickened Spell -- and that goes for pretty much any self-only buff when you're a cleric with better party-buffing options for your standard action. Crossbows are a PITA feat-hog in a cleric; the archery will literally eat up every slot you have and then some if you're trying for more than your stock number of attacks.
The problem I see with dumping str as a cleric, which also applies to the dervish build above, is encumbrance. I know that mithral armor weighs half as much as normal, but you're not going to be able to afford that until at least 4th or 5th level.You'll have both Mbuck and Mbrea at 3rd in PFS; it's a cash-rich game.
I just looked up the details in the Core Rulebook. With a 7 str, the weight of a mithral breastplate, mithral buckler, light crossbow, and 20 crossbow bolts is enough to put you into medium load territory.
That's why I didn't give her a crossbow. As far as the rest of the weight goes, the build was originally designed with a halfling or gnome in mind; armor for small characters weighs half (and then half again for being mithral).
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I'm thinking light crossbow would let me dump str, and just go with the typical point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid reload feats. With spells to buff, the crossbow could be ok. Divine Favor in particular seems nice, as a level 1 spell that gets better at level 6+.Divine Favor is worthless until you can cast it as a Quickened Spell -- and that goes for pretty much any self-only buff when you're a cleric with better party-buffing options for your standard action. Crossbows are a PITA feat-hog in a cleric; the archery will literally eat up every slot you have and then some if you're trying for more than your stock number of attacks.
So how would you build an archer cleric? The phrase "archer cleric" seems to be a common recommendation, but I have yet to see any specific advice as to what that means. Are you saying that crossbows aren't the way to go? Clerics don't have proficiency with other bows, unless they're an elf or worship Erastil, whose favored weapon is a longbow, neither of which fits with my character concept.
I'm thinking light crossbow would let me dump str, and just go with the typical point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid reload feats. With spells to buff, the crossbow could be ok. Divine Favor in particular seems nice, as a level 1 spell that gets better at level 6+.Divine Favor is worthless until you can cast it as a Quickened Spell -- and that goes for pretty much any self-only buff when you're a cleric with better party-buffing options for your standard action. Crossbows are a PITA feat-hog in a cleric; the archery will literally eat up every slot you have and then some if you're trying for more than your stock number of attacks.So how would you build an archer cleric? The phrase "archer cleric" seems to be a common recommendation, but I have yet to see any specific advice as to what that means. Are you saying that crossbows aren't the way to go? Clerics don't have proficiency with other bows, unless they're an elf or worship Erastil, whose favored weapon is a longbow, neither of which fits with my character concept.
You can be a half elf with an alternate racial trait or take heirloom weapon. Getting proficiency without multiclassing is pretty easy.
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So how would you build an archer cleric?I myself might peruse the Crusader's Flurry feat from Ultimate Combat, and build a monk1/clerX of a bow deity.
The phrase "archer cleric" seems to be a common recommendation, but I have yet to see any specific advice as to what that means. Are you saying that crossbows aren't the way to go? Clerics don't have proficiency with other bows, unless they're an elf or worship Erastil, whose favored weapon is a longbow, neither of which fits with my character concept.
Then my advice would be not to make a bow cleric if you also want to be a scimitar cleric -- you can't be everything. Buy a wand of Scorching Ray for 4500gp, and UMD it with the bard/cleric build presented above. 4d6 touch is a better attack than most clerics will see with a ranged weapon. If you get to the level where Haste is always being cast, plop a feat into Rapid Reload and buy a +1/Seeking light-crossbow (don't waste any other feat slots) and GMW the ammunition.
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Just for comparison, a couple of people have mentioned archer clerics, so how does that work? Since clerics aren't proficient with bows, do you use a light crossbow for that, or spend a feat getting longbow proficiency?
And yet I still haven't actually gotten an answer to this.
If someone can give me some good advice on doing an archer cleric, I may still consider it. But it would have to fit my base character concept of a good, human cleric from an urban background. I never said that I insist on being scimitar fighter. That was my initial leaning, but I'm open to other suggestions.
So if someone wouldn't mind giving a simple yes or no answer to the question I asked more than a day ago of whether the commonly referenced archer cleric needs to get a bow proficiency, or if that concept is normally done with a crossbow, that would be a good start.
And Mike, you keep insisting that it isn't worth spending feats on archery. Is that for all archer clerics? Or is it based on you not having actually read the paragraph I quoted above, where I wanted information on what an archer cleric would look like?
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The logic on archer clerics is they don't need to be on the front line, and if you are support may as well never give justification for moving up. They are actually really good for low to mid levels; around 8 or 9 combats are faster and more furious, and most caster types that took combat feats regret it. But they are more useful than the power attack / heavy armor cases even later. At the very least they give you something to do when spells aren't warranted.
My current archer Evangalist cleric (glory domain, do both be a better "face" and for extreme action economy @ 8... essentially I will be able to summon, bardsong, and grant heroism all round 1 combat, creating d3 lantern archons +4 to hit +2 damage per shot, then next round shoot my bow at the same bonuses):
(PFS 20 point)
LG Cleric of Iomedea, Evangalist Glory Domain, Human
Str: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Chr: 12
For bow proficiency I use heirloom weapon, which eventually becomes wasted (PFS you can't masterwork your heirloom weapon, but Lesser Bracers of Archery grant you proficiency with all bows and a +1 bonus for 5000 GP).
Feats: 1 - PBS, Precise Shot
3 - Rapid Shot
5 - Sacred Summons (for lantern archon firefest, LG)
7 - Deadly Aim
9 - Multishot
11 - not sure yet
He plays very well thusfar, with a great mixed bag of tricks and lots of handy buffs to hand out. Also makes a great diplomat, thanks to his domain power.
So if someone wouldn't mind giving a simple yes or no answer to the question I asked more than a day ago of whether the commonly referenced archer cleric needs to get a bow proficiency, or if that concept is normally done with a crossbow, that would be a good start.And Mike, you keep insisting that it isn't worth spending feats on archery. Is that for all archer clerics? Or is it based on you not having actually read the paragraph I quoted above, where I wanted information on what an archer cleric would look like?
Normally the best way to go about it would be to get bow proficiency. Mike's suggesting that if you don't want to you can go the crossbow route.
If you want to be human then jsut take the heirloom weapon trait. It gets you the necessary proficiency without expending a feat. From there it depends entirely upon what you want to do with it. Ultimately you are a caster first and an archer second. The simplest, least painful paths might be to take an archetype since few domains actually support archery directly. Crusader is good for this since you can get weapon specialization and weapon focus, helping your damage. But this only works if worshiping a bow god. Evangelist is better since you can have inspire courage to supplement your own bonuses while still being a boon to the party. But this sacrifices your channeling to some degree.
One way to go about it? Let's try:
Stats:
Str:13
Dex:15
Con:12
Wis:16(14+2racial)
Int:10
Cha:13
Sarenrae:
Now at lvl 1 if we're not going Evangelist of Sarenrae we can do
Domain: Heroism
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
From here we're pretty solid on ranged. We can decide later whether or not to focus on spell casting (getting metamagic feats and what not). OR we cna decide to get thigns like Deadly Aim, or Rapid Shot.
Eventually of course you'll top it off with Discordant voice.
Now if you don't want to spend a trait. And don't want to be erastil we have a solution to that.
Namely,worshiping Sinashakti. Whose favored weapon is shortbow and he's good. He also has a pair of solid domains. So we can do what we did above save getting the travel or luck domains. Or we can go crusader.
Domain: Travel
Feats:Weapon Focus (Shortbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
3rd. Rapid Shot
Really there's lots of ways to go about an archer cleric.