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If you take Agile Maneuvers to add Dex in place of Str when calculating CMB, do you then add Dex again for CMD???
if CMB = BAB + Dex + size
and CMD = CMB + Dex
does CMD = BAB + Dex + Dex + size
on the one hand it seems right, on the other hand it seems like double dipping
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CMD does not include CMB as part of its calculation. It is, as per the Combat section:
CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
While BAB + Str is essentially CMB, it was purposefully not listed as CMB here so that feats like Agile Maneuvers would not change it.
Agile Maneuvers will only change your CMB score, not your CMD.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
So it's not a typo - CMD does include STR and DEX? In addition to having a base of 10?
That's right. A base of 10 plus both ability mods.
Then taking Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun are essentially pointless.
That CMD number has to be dropped somehow - as stated here and elsewhere at higher levels its impossible to perform a maneuver on anyone and excessively difficult at lower levels. I'd say drop the BAB portion or the "10" - the CMD would still be greater than the CMB (which sort of makes sense that it might be easier to defend against a maneuver than make one) but not so high as to make it impossible.
@FighterGuy: Search the forums for "ManeuverAC"
This matter was extensively discussed, playtested, number crunched.
I think everybody involved was actually shocked at how close it hewed to 3.5's chances across all ranges of opponents. Iin fact it's EASIER for low level/low stat characters fighting amongst each other. You might notice that a common remark amongst the boards here is that at high level Attack Bonuses tend to outstrip all but the most optimized ACs. CMD is basically a variant of Touch AC, and Maneuvers allow ALL Attack Bonuses to modify their SINGLE roll (vs. 3.5 where Attack Bonuses helped hit Touch AC, which was generally easy to begin with, but did nothing for Strength Checks).
Then taking Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun are essentially pointless.
That CMD number has to be dropped somehow - as stated here and elsewhere at higher levels its impossible to perform a maneuver on anyone and excessively difficult at lower levels. I'd say drop the BAB portion or the "10" - the CMD would still be greater than the CMB (which sort of makes sense that it might be easier to defend against a maneuver than make one) but not so high as to make it impossible.
If you dropped the 10 portion, you'd make success virtually guaranteed. Take two first level fighters with Str 16 and Dex 12. They would each have a CMB of +4 (+1 BAB + 3 Str). Without the 10, they would each have a CMD of 5 (1 BAB + 3 Str + 1 Dex). If one tried to grapple the other, even a roll of 2 would beat the DC. Only an auto-fail on a natural 1 would fail (without an auto-fail, any roll would succeed).
However, keeping the 10 in there gives a CMD of 15, allowing success on a roll of 11 or higher. A 50% chance. Sounds about right to me.
edit: fixed some spelling
Then taking Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun are essentially pointless.
That CMD number has to be dropped somehow - as stated here and elsewhere at higher levels its impossible to perform a maneuver on anyone and excessively difficult at lower levels. I'd say drop the BAB portion or the "10" - the CMD would still be greater than the CMB (which sort of makes sense that it might be easier to defend against a maneuver than make one) but not so high as to make it impossible.
If you dropped the 10 portion, you'd make success virtually guaranteed. Take two first level fighters with Str 16 and Dex 12. They would each have a CMB of +4 (+1 BAB + 3 Str). Without the 10, they would each have a CMD of 5 (1 BAB + 3 Str + 1 Dex). If one tried to grapple the other, even a roll of 2 would beat the DC. Only an auto-fail on a natural 1 would fail (without an auto-fail, any roll would succeed).
However, keeping the 10 in there gives a CMD of 15, allowing success on a roll of 11 or higher. A 50% chance. Sounds about right to me.
edit: fixed some spelling
I concede in part - numbers wise it works. From an intrinsic and theoretical POV - However one thing to think of at higher levels - the ability for one to boost AC factors that effect CMD are far greater than one's ability to boost Strength (or Dex if there is a Feat). Thus, item wise, one could become far more difficult a target by others.
I concede in part - numbers wise it works. From an intrinsic and theoretical POV - However one thing to think of at higher levels - the ability for one to boost AC factors that effect CMD are far greater than one's ability to boost Strength (or Dex if there is a Feat). Thus, item wise, one could become far more difficult a target by others.
Remember that buffs fo attack works on maneuvers too. Spells, bards, flanking, weapon enhancements, buffs.. all of these make maneuvers more likely to land.
Moreover, classes can have slight bonus always active (like fighters) or temporary huge boosts (barbarian).
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...It doesn't say it effects CMD so I'd guess no second DEX bonus ...That's what I'm currently going with, though I'd love to have an official clarification.
CMD does not include CMB as part of its calculation. It is, as per the Combat section:
CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
While BAB + Str is essentially CMB, it was purposefully not listed as CMB here so that feats like Agile Maneuvers would not change it.
Agile Maneuvers will only change your CMB score, not your CMD.
Have to necro this thread (started over two years ago) because there are apparently still disagreements; and the matter has come once again in the matter of halfling wizards in the advice forum.
d20pfsrd is generally quite good at quickly including FAQs, and so if CMD still includes STR with Agile Maneuvers, would revise that page upon a FAQ addressing it. Or, OTOH, we all learn something new.
(On another note, it's virtually impossible to know who on these forums is "official" for purposes of issuing clarifications, etc.)
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Note also this thread regarding size modifiers/bonuses/whatever.
The problem arises that CMD allows for things like deflection bonus, insight bonuses, dodge bonuses, and others to add to it, so it climbs a lot faster at higher levels than CMB.
For example: a 20th level fighter has a CMB of BAB + Strength. Let's say that he has a Strength of 30 (15 base +5 level +6 magic +4 tome). His CMB is a 30. If he has the right feat chains for a particular maneuver, he could have +4 for a particular maneuver, so that is 34. If he is using a weapon for the maneuver (and the weapon is appropriate, such as sword for disarm) he can add his enhancement bonus, which at 20th level should be a +5. That is a 39. Plus a d20, so we are looking at him hitting targets in the 40-59 range.
His opponent is a 20th level monk. Base CMD is 10 + BAB + Dexterity + Strength. Let's say that the monk has take Defensive Combat Training and Dodge (use class level instead of BAB) and has a Strength of 24 (15 base +1 level +6 magic; +2 tome), a Dexterity of 22 (14 base +2 level; +6 magic), and a Wisdom of 22 (14 base +2 level +6 magic). He is wearing a +5 Ring of Protection and a Monk's Robe. He receives a +6 bonus to CMD from his class (and the robe's) AND can add his Wisdom to his CMD. Oekey-dokey. 10 + 20 (BAB=Class Level) + 6 (Dex) + 8 (Str) + 6 (Wis) + 6 (Class) + 5 (Deflection) +1 (Dodge) = 62. If he has the Improved Maneuver Feat for the maneuver the fighter is attempting, that is another +2, for a total of 64.
The fighter simply cannot connect with the monk on anything but a natural 20.
Even if the example is not a monk, it is pretty bad for the fighter guy. 20th level rogue with Defensive Combat Training, Dodge, and Boots of Speed. Strength of 26 (15 base +3 level +6 magic +2 tome) and Dexterity of 26 (15 base +2 level, +6 magic +3 tome), with a Ring of Protection +5. CMD is 10 + 20 + 8 (Str) + 8 (Dex) + 5 (Ring) + 1 (Dodge) + 4 (Dodge bonus from haste) for a total of 56. It could be higher with the right feat choices. The fighter only hits on a 17+.
Don't get me wrong, I love playing monks. And having it where no fighter in land can grapple or trip or bullrush or overrun me? Yeah, I'll take that for a dollar. I am just saying that CMD scales a lot higher a lot faster than CMB, and that is an imbalance in the game.
Master Arminas
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If he is using a weapon for the maneuver (and the weapon is appropriate, such as sword for disarm) he can add his enhancement bonus...(to CMB)
He can add all bonuses which apply to that weapon:
CRB "...When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver...."
That fighter will have Weapon Training, Gloves of Dueling, Ioun Stones, Greater Weapon Focus, and umpitty other things all chipping in depending upon the type of maneuver he attempts and what weapon he's using.
So, if a fighter has put +4 in one weapon group, has Weapon Focus and Greater Weapons, then his CMB with that weapon is a 45. He still needs a 19 to hit the monk, a natural 20 if the monk is wearing boots of speed (which would put his CMD at 68).
Against the rogue, that +6 makes a difference, hitting on 11+, for about 50% of the time.
But he still needs a 19 or 20 to hit the monk!
Master Arminas
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Have to necro this thread (started over two years ago) because there are apparently still disagreements; and the matter has come once again in the matter of halfling wizards in the advice forum.
And I'll reiterate what I said in that thread: when it's rules versus fan site, the answer is "rules win" not "better FAQ it".
d20pfsrd is generally quite good at quickly including FAQs, and so if CMD still includes STR with Agile Maneuvers, would revise that page upon a FAQ addressing it. Or, OTOH, we all learn something new.
Maybe I'll just go ahead and email them (the SRD people) about the discrepancy. Probably the quickest way to fix things; a FAQ stating "it works like it says in the rules and not how some players summarized it" would be kind of silly and a waste of the Developers' time.
(On another note, it's virtually impossible to know who on these forums is "official" for purposes of issuing clarifications, etc.)
For your reference:
OfficialPublished products
PRD
FAQs on this website
Mostly official but not PFS-binding until included elsewhere
Designers/Developers (tagged as such after their names on the messageboards)
Not official
Everything else (including any content of the SRD that does not also appear elsewhere)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Paizo made a valiant effort, but IMO the whole mess is still kludged (particularly for small races; e.g., a gnome is harder to attack due to his size, but easier to trip/disarm/whatever because he's small...wah-wah-huh? :-P ).
Everyone knows the easiest way for a martial character to kill a Tiny creature is with Greater Sunder. ;)
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Paizo made a valiant effort, but IMO the whole mess is still kludged (particularly for small races; e.g., a gnome is harder to attack due to his size, but easier to trip/disarm/whatever because he's small...wah-wah-huh? :-P ).
I like this system orders of magnitude more than the 3.5 system. All the combat maneuvers are covered under one modifier with one DC to match, and it's very simple and easy to grasp.
Still, I agree. Perhaps Size Modifier should have just been left out of CMD? Make it simpler still?