Spectral Blade: does its Sustain action gain the attack trait?

[reins864]

Hi everyone! Could someone help me clarify a RAW question about Spectral Blade (Impossible Magic, p. 163)?

Spectral Blade has the attack, concentrate, manipulate, and spirit traits. It lets you make a ranged spell attack when you cast it and the first time you Sustain it on subsequent turns. However, Sustain itself only lists concentrate, and the spell does not explicitly say that this Sustain action gains the attack trait.

Spectral Blade
Sustain

For comparison, Diadem of Divine Radiance explicitly says that its attack action has the attack and spirit traits. Spiritual Armament does not have attack in its spell traits, but explicitly says that its attack uses and contributes to your multiple attack penalty.

Diadem of Divine Radiance
Spiritual Armament

My understanding from the general spell attack and MAP rules is that Spectral Blade's spell attack should still use and contribute to MAP. I am less sure about the traits of the Sustain action itself, so I would like to check these separately:

1. Is that MAP interpretation correct for the spell attack made when Sustaining Spectral Blade?
2. Does that particular Sustain action gain the attack trait? If so, which general rule establishes this? If it does not, how should it interact with abilities that specifically refer to an action with the attack trait?

Spell Attack Rolls
Multiple Attack Penalty

I may be overlooking a general rule. Any relevant rules references or links to an existing clarification would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Finoan]

The general rule you are looking for is the Subordinate Actions rule.

The entire rule is important, but the most relevant part of it is this:

Subordinate Actions wrote:

This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects ...

So to answer the direct question in the title: no, the Sustain action does not gain any traits of the subordinate spell attack action.

However, that spell attack action does still have its normal traits, and those traits do still take effect. So the Attack trait of the spell would apply the MAP to the attack roll and increase the MAP by one stage, as normal.

The text in Spiritual Armament about using and contributing to MAP is reminder text. It restates the results of the general rule.

Also this lack of the Attack trait on combination activities is typical for actions that have subordinate attack actions. Sudden Charge itself doesn't have the Attack trait. But the subordinate Strike action that it contains does. Flurry of Blows is the same way. It does not by itself have the Attack trait, but both of the Strike actions that it creates still do.

Another point to note about things that interact with subordinate actions is that Reactions can still trigger on the traits of those subordinate actions. So the Stride actions of Sudden Charge, for example, can still be reacted to with Reactive Strike for being movement actions. Similarly, anything that could react to the ranged spell attack that Spectral Blade adds to the Sustain action can still be triggered by that subordinate action.

[NorrKnekten]

No, Sustain does not have the attack trait.

The spell however does, with the rule still being

Attack Trait wrote:

For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty.

Im not sure what abilities specifically refer to an action with the attack trait as most abilities refer to the attacks themselves instead of the action that caused it. But it should be the Subordinate Actions rule that applies to this even though Spectral Blade's attack is not an explicit action.

[reins864]

Thanks, Finoan and NorrKnekten! The distinction between the containing action and its subordinate actions is helpful. Could I ask about one remaining step in the RAW reasoning?

With Sudden Charge or Flurry of Blows, the text explicitly calls for a Strike, and Strike has its own attack trait. Spectral Blade instead tells us to make a ranged spell attack when we Sustain it, without naming a separate action or listing that attack's traits.

The Core Rulebook FAQ/errata clarifies:

Quote:

An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.

I also see that the spell attack rules explicitly apply MAP. What I am trying to pin down is the trait assignment:

1. Does an instruction to make a spell attack automatically establish a subordinate action for the purposes of the Subordinate Actions rule?
2. What establishes that attack's own attack trait: a general rule for all spell attacks, or the traits of the originating spell?

Would the MAP paragraph's explicit inclusion of spell attack rolls itself establish this, or is there another rule I should be reading?

Thanks again for your help!

[Squiggit]

Yeah you can make an argument that because Sustain has no trait inheritance and is separate from casting an actual spell you're not doing anything with the attack trait when you sustain spectral blade.

Not really convinced that's a design intention though just a weird potential wording quirk.

[NorrKnekten]

It does not automatically establish a subordinate action no, some things are just effects that happen when you do something else.

The distinction is akin to;
A: When you do X, Y happens
B: When you do X, You can also do Y.

The difference here is that Y would either be a explicit action in the latter or an effect that happens because of X in the former. But X and Y are regardless different and does not share traits.

However, We do know that the attack in Spectral Blade itself should have most if not all traits from the spell itself since it inherently is part of the spell's effect. And since spell attacks inherently impart and are affected by MAP you arent getting around this.

The counter example Blink Charge which explicitly have you do a weapon Strike and thus is covered under the subordinate actions rule, Blink Charge does not make this strike inherit the force trait even though the strike will deal additional force damage.

And since it is a Strike it can also benefit from bonuses to weapon attacks which spell attacks cannot.

[The Raven Black]

"Every check that has the attack trait counts toward your multiple attack penalty, including Strikes, spell attack rolls, certain skill actions like Shove, and many others."

Spell attack rolls are a check with the attack trait. MAP applies.