Chelaxian Scion granting unusable (?) feat

[Qalyar]

The Chelaxian Scion archetype (Hell's Destiny, pp. 222-223) has three bespoke feats and also grants access to several others depending on the noble house you're affiliated with. Several of these feats are normally class feats, which is fine and nothing new. Archetypes have done that all along.

However, one of the additional feats available to House Sarini at 4th is Exploit Blunder, normally an Investigator feat. And... we have a problem, because the Exploit Blunder reaction has the following trigger (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Trigger: A creature you Devised a Stratagem against on your most recent turn fails or critically fails a Strike against you.

Chelaxian Scion does not grant access to Devise a Stratagem, but I'm sure the intent here wasn't to restrict access to Investigator / Chelaxian Scions. It's quite the power boost for the feat if you can react to any target this way... but on the other hand, it's a purely defensive feat, so maybe that's fine?

Any idea how this was supposed to work?

[Finoan]

Hmm... Indeed that is a bit strange.

Chelaxian Scion definitely wouldn't grant Devise a Strategem to characters that choose house Sarini. Not that anyone was suggesting that.

It isn't required that all feats for an Archetype are useful for all characters who take that archetype. It is certainly better if they are. But it doesn't always happen. As another example, Corpse Tender Archetype does not require any spellcasting ability. The Command Corpse feat does require the ability to cast the Harm spell, so that feat is not useful for characters that take the Archetype without any spellcasting ability.

But ultimately, I do also agree that allowing the feat to be used without the need for the attacker to be the target of Devise a Strategem doesn't seem overpowered. I thought there was a Rogue feat that did something similar, but I am not finding it currently.

[Tridus]

It's hard to know what they were thinking there, especially since the rest of that archetype is Bard abilities that have no such restriction.

I see three possibilities:
1. They listed the wrong feat in the book and it was supposed to be something else entirely.
2. They intended it to work without Devise and forgot to say that.
3. It's intended this way and it's only useful if you're also an Investigator.

Demiplane lists the same thing, so it's not a transcription error by AoN.

Unfortunately we just don't have any source of intent on this one.

[The Raven Black]

Tridus wrote:

It's hard to know what they were thinking there, especially since the rest of that archetype is Bard abilities that have no such restriction.

I see three possibilities:
1. They listed the wrong feat in the book and it was supposed to be something else entirely.
2. They intended it to work without Devise and forgot to say that.
3. It's intended this way and it's only useful if you're also an Investigator.

Demiplane lists the same thing, so it's not a transcription error by AoN.

Unfortunately we just don't have any source of intent on this one.

Thing is an Investigator could take it already as a class feat and at a lower level to boot.

But getting it to work without Devise, which means on any creature, would be much better than what an Investigator would get by taking the feat.

So, really an error there.

[The Raven Black]

Maybe they intended to give them Flexible Studies. An Investigator level 1 feat that does not require having an Investigator class feature.

[Qalyar]

Finoan wrote:

Hmm... Indeed that is a bit strange.

Chelaxian Scion definitely wouldn't grant Devise a Strategem to characters that choose house Sarini. Not that anyone was suggesting that.

It isn't required that all feats for an Archetype are useful for all characters who take that archetype. It is certainly better if they are. But it doesn't always happen. As another example, Corpse Tender Archetype does not require any spellcasting ability. The Command Corpse feat does require the ability to cast the Harm spell, so that feat is not useful for characters that take the Archetype without any spellcasting ability.

But ultimately, I do also agree that allowing the feat to be used without the need for the attacker to be the target of Devise a Strategem doesn't seem overpowered. I thought there was a Rogue feat that did something similar, but I am not finding it currently.

Corpse Tender, though, has "ability to cast harm" as a prerequisite for taking Command Corpse. Chelaxian Scion (Sarini) doesn't have any extra prerequisites, so it's possible, as printed, for a character to take a feat that they simply cannot use.

Obviously, no one should. And I don't think that's how this is supposed to work... but then again, I don't really know how I think this is supposed to work. I've got a player wanting to play one of these shortly. I'll... come up with something, absent official clarification, I suppose!

[NorrKnekten]

I dont really see the issue, Yes a player can take it.. arguably it should have Devise a Stratagem as a requisite.

Its the same as with Investigator archetype. Theres so many feats which a character can pick that requires the use of DaS but doesnt have it as a prerequisite.

One has to remember that these are additional feats and are entirely optional, so there is nothing that states the character has to take Exploit Blunder at all, Especially with Aristocratic Arms and Patronize the Arts sitting there.

[Squiggit]

NorrKnekten wrote:

I dont really see the issue

It's a bonus feat anyone can take that only works for one class in the game that already has access to the feat in the first place.

... How do you not see the issue? You really think that's a sensible design choice?

[NorrKnekten]

Without FA or picking up the Investigator Archetype, No it does not make sense unless you are specifically looking to pad out the archetype, and you are correct about that.

[Tridus]

Squiggit wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

I dont really see the issue

It's a bonus feat anyone can take that only works for one class in the game that already has access to the feat in the first place.

... How do you not see the issue? You really think that's a sensible design choice?

And that's why I think it's an error. This isn't a case of a new feat only Investigator can benefit from. It's literally an Investigator feat, that only an Investigator can benefit from, which an Investigator already has access to.

So it's not a niche feat situation. It's a dead feature: it gives literally nothing unless you are using Free Archetype, and the rules are not designed assuming FA.

I feel like it was supposed to be some other feat and it just slipped through the cracks.

[The Raven Black]

I would adjudicate that you need to choose a creature you can see as a single action on your most recent turn to use Exploit Blunder against them.

As if you got the Devise a Stratagem action but with no benefits except to fulfill Exploit Blunder's requirements.

And not having the Pursue a Lead feature, it always costs 1 action.