Proficiency without level and summons

[valdis43]

I've recently come across Flatfinder, the modifications for proficiency without level and it looks like some good ideas for fixes to the core proficiency without level rules. One thing I've heard is missing still are rules for summons. Using the xp charts for Flatfinder and normal Pathfinder as a guide, I think the summoning levels should be:

Spell level / normal summons level / new proficiency without level summons level
1 / -1 / -1
2 / 1 / 0
3 / 2 / 1
4 / 3 / 2
5 / 5 / 3
6 / 7 / 5
7 / 9 / 7
8 / 11 / 9
9 / 13 / 11
10 / 15 / 13

Does that look right? Are there any other problems with proficiency without level that Flatfinder doesn't fix?

[Perpdepog]

This may be better to ask in Advice or perhaps in Homebrew since Flatfinder isn't an official Paizo product.

Also, thanks for mentioning Flatfinder; I'd nevr heard of it and, while I haven't played PWL yet, I've been interested in the varient!

[Tridus]

I don't use PWL, but wouldn't you just use the same summoning creature lists and deduct the creature's level from its stats?

[YuriP]

AoN already has the creature stats calculated with PWL. Just check the creature that you want to summon there.

Another interesting option if your GM allows it is to use the Magic+'s summons that use the caster's spell DC as a basis instead of pre-made creatures and you aren't restricted to use your preferred creature in a small range of levels due to the progression (it's called as Aspect Summoning there).

[Maya Coleman]

Moved to the homebrew section for you, valdis43! Thanks for the heads up, Perpdepog!

[valdis43]

To lay out the issue more clearly, yes, you can deduct the level from the summoned creatures stats and get the corrected stats. But it seems like it'll be more powerful than it should be and summoning is already pretty good in pathfinder.

Let's say a hypothetical level 3 wizard summons a rank 1 wolf to fight a rank 3 dire wolf. In regular pathfinder, our summoned wolf has a +9 to hit the dire wolf's AC of 18. The summoned wolf hits on a 9 or higher. In PWL our summoned wolf has a +8 to hit the dire wolf's AC of 15. The summoned wolf now hits on a 7 or higher. So effectively, our summons is stronger than it was.

In my suggestion, the wolf would be replaced by a creature like a badger, who also has a +8 to hit, but doesn't hit as hard or have as many hp. That seems reasonable.