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I was doing some math for the most basic, fundamental, expected expenses to a character but I have no idea if my assumptions are even right, but it is basically an assumption that you would want to pump you 3 skills you are taking to legendary for every character that isn't a Rogue or anyone else that gets bonus skills to skill up, and also basic fundamental property runes on armor, and in the cash of a reaper, for a weapon and that's about it.
This doesn't include other items like Spacious Pouch or any other bells and whistles, or even consumables.
Here is what it looks like, and maybe some of my assumptions are wrong, but I figured as a spellcaster you would want a +3 in your "Learn a Spell" skill, but maybe a grimoire on top to facilitate that would be considered a "bells and whistles" type purchase. However for the Gish (Reaper), there isn't a +3 occult item that ISN'T the Int Apex item, and I wanted a Strength apex item to take it to +6 Str/+6 Int to keep my strike accuracy up, so that leaves you with a max of +2 Occultism without the Endless Grimoire.
Here is a link to screen shots of my math, is this about right? So what about all the extra stuff, i.e. if you can't get a personal staff, then a regular staff on a caster, wands, scrolls, potions etc? Other worn items like spellhearts, etc etc etc?
"Gish" Expected Base Expenses Part 1
"Gish" Expected Base Expenses Part 2
As you can see based on my calculations (which could be wrong) JUST the fundamentals (are property runes assumed??) it basically runs just shy of 300,000k and that's no potions, no scrolls, no wands, no learning new spells, no nothing. Just fundamental basic math fixer items that system (I guess?) expects(?) you to make.
Basically, title of the thread, how much gold are people expected to make to fund their career as an adventurer if you DO want extra non-basic math fixer items?
I was also kinda trying to figure out the gold curve each level would cost and how that measures up to real time gold intake, but I am still not sure on that. Some levels seem extra loaded and probably need to be spread out, whereas some seem kinda fine? But even if you do the Treasure By level table and divided the "party total" by 4 you end up...not even affording a +1 potency rune at level 2... so... ??????
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Start with the new character wealth table and project upward from there as that tends to lowball what characters end up with from natural progression.
In my experience though the budget for random nonsense is still kinda thin and mostly comes from just getting something neat as a do instead of paying for it. I've also seen pure casters use their extra budget from not needing a weapon to accelerate martial item progression since they don't really scale well with items.
I haven't done a big math analysis on how well the Treasure by Level and Wealth f or new characters tables match up with reality.
What I do instead is note if the party overall is, or is not, keeping up with the Bonus Progression that is expected. They should be able to find or afford equipment to keep them on track and still have some cash left over for consumables, secondary equipment, or other fun role-playing costs.
If they aren't, then it is time for the GM to step in and do something about that.
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Start with the new character wealth table and project upward from there as that tends to lowball what characters end up with from natural progression.
In my experience though the budget for random nonsense is still kinda thin and mostly comes from just getting something neat as a do instead of paying for it. I've also seen pure casters use their extra budget from not needing a weapon to accelerate martial item progression since they don't really scale well with items.
I've heard the New Character Wealth Table is very very undercosted and doesn't even get you the bare minimum of "math fixer" items, but I could be wrong about that?
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In any AP, and in any adventure where the GM follows the suggested wealth per encounter table, you will vastly exceed the wealth by level table.
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In any AP, and in any adventure where the GM follows the suggested wealth per encounter table, you will vastly exceed the wealth by level table.
Which brings me back to my title question: So how much gold is an adventurer "supposed" to make? I guess there is no standard budget exactly? 325,000gp? Is that a safe amount to "assume"?
Two things to keep in mind:
1) In PF2e, the expectation is that item levels should be one or two less than character level (at best), not equal to character level;
2) Encounter rewards should contain a mix of consumables and not just permanent items.
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Two things to keep in mind:
1) In PF2e, the expectation is that item levels should be one or two less than character level (at best), not equal to character level;
2) Encounter rewards should contain a mix of consumables and not just permanent items.
Yes. Which is why my calculations are just for, what I assumed was, the basic "math fixer" items the game expects you to have for the right numbers at the right levels i.e. fundamental runes and item bonuses to skills. This didn't account for any consumables. Just pure +1/2/3 items.
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According to the wealth by treasure chart, each PC out of a party of 4 should find 358,319 gp from level 1 to 20. This chart is assuming the party finds a good chunk of useful permanent items in that treasure tailored to the party by the GM, which is why APs typically come very close to doubling the total treasure per level of that chart.
I've heard the New Character Wealth Table is very very undercosted and doesn't even get you the bare minimum of "math fixer" items, but I could be wrong about that?Start with the new character wealth table and project upward from there as that tends to lowball what characters end up with from natural progression.
In my experience though the budget for random nonsense is still kinda thin and mostly comes from just getting something neat as a do instead of paying for it. I've also seen pure casters use their extra budget from not needing a weapon to accelerate martial item progression since they don't really scale well with items.
This is correct. It’s about half of what the expectations from the treasure by level chart are. Starting a game with it is pretty crippling for a good few levels.
I was doing some math for the most basic, fundamental, expected expenses to a character but I have no idea if my assumptions are even right, but it is basically an assumption that you would want to pump you 3 skills you are taking to legendary for every character that isn't a Rogue or anyone else that gets bonus skills to skill up, and also basic fundamental property runes on armor, and in the cash of a reaper, for a weapon and that's about it.
This doesn't include other items like Spacious Pouch or any other bells and whistles, or even consumables.
Here is what it looks like, and maybe some of my assumptions are wrong, but I figured as a spellcaster you would want a +3 in your "Learn a Spell" skill, but maybe a grimoire on top to facilitate that would be considered a "bells and whistles" type purchase. However for the Gish (Reaper), there isn't a +3 occult item that ISN'T the Int Apex item, and I wanted a Strength apex item to take it to +6 Str/+6 Int to keep my strike accuracy up, so that leaves you with a max of +2 Occultism without the Endless Grimoire.
Here is a link to screen shots of my math, is this about right? So what about all the extra stuff, i.e. if you can't get a personal staff, then a regular staff on a caster, wands, scrolls, potions etc? Other worn items like spellhearts, etc etc etc?
"Gish" Expected Base Expenses Part 1
"Gish" Expected Base Expenses Part 2
As you can see based on my calculations (which could be wrong) JUST the fundamentals (are property runes assumed??) it basically runs just shy of 300,000k and that's no potions, no scrolls, no wands, no learning new spells, no nothing. Just fundamental basic math fixer items that system (I guess?) expects(?) you to make.
Basically, title of the thread, how much gold are people expected to make to fund their career as an adventurer if you DO want extra non-basic math fixer...
The treasure by level chart you were looking at was probably the wealth by level chart which is for a single character. The wealth by encounter chart has a total wealth by level chart (assuming a party of 4). That chart estimates you find 175 gp per party by level 2 even if you only found 160 total, that would be 40 gp per party member.
According to the wealth by treasure chart, each PC out of a party of 4 should find 358,319 gp from level 1 to 20. This chart is assuming the party finds a good chunk of useful permanent items in that treasure tailored to the party by the GM, which is why APs typically come very close to doubling the total treasure per level of that chart.
It does have to be tailored to the characters/generically good items (and/or count vendor trash at half) otherwise you’re effectively giving out half of treasure by level.
If the party finds a flaming rune they’ve found 500gp of treasure and had 500gp of treasure detracted from the expected treasure for the level. If the party finds a major fanged rune the naive deduction is 6k, but they’re only getting 3k worth of treasure.
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The Character Wealth Tables is pretty conservative when compared to the Treasure by Encounter table that is the basis for most adventures and the recommended treasure per encounter.
A PC needs to accumulate 1000 XP to level up; this means about 6 extreme encounters + 1 trivial to up. Following up the Treasure by Encounter table, this means if a 4-player party progresses from level 19 to 20, they will accumulate about 452.600 GP in treasure only at level 19 to 20. This is a bit less than the initial Treasure by Encounter initial money for a level 20 party.
If we sum all the accumulated treasure from Treasure by Encounter table from level 1 to 20, this will reach the impressive amount of 3,153,205 GP for the party. Dividing it by 4 becomes 788,301.25 per PC!
OK, some of this value is lost in the form of items sold at half the price and some consumables. But even if we divided it in half, it would still be more than 3x the Character Wealth Tables level 20 Lump Sum.
So if you are playing an adventure following the Treasure by Encounter since the level 1 money becomes less and less a restriction factor over time than most people think. The money problems really happen when you start a new character at higher level using the Character Wealth Tables or the Treasure by Level tables.
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For reference to everyone it is literally called the "Treasure by Level" table and you can find it here:
Treasure by level and it was recommended you divide the total value by 4 which approximates 125,000gp. Which seemed low, but I also am probably reading the chart wrong or using it wrong.
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The Character Wealth Tables is pretty conservative when compared to the Treasure by Encounter table that is the basis for most adventures and the recommended treasure per encounter.
A PC needs to accumulate 1000 XP to level up; this means about 6 extreme encounters + 1 trivial to up. Following up the Treasure by Encounter table, this means if a 4-player party progresses from level 19 to 20, they will accumulate about 452.600 GP in treasure only at level 19 to 20. This is a bit less than the initial Treasure by Encounter initial money for a level 20 party.
If we sum all the accumulated treasure from Treasure by Encounter table from level 1 to 20, this will reach the impressive amount of 3,153,205 GP for the party. Dividing it by 4 becomes 788,301.25 per PC!
OK, some of this value is lost in the form of items sold at half the price and some consumables. But even if we divided it in half, it would still be more than 3x the Character Wealth Tables level 20 Lump Sum.
So if you are playing an adventure following the Treasure by Encounter since the level 1 money becomes less and less a restriction factor over time than most people think. The money problems really happen when you start a new character at higher level using the Character Wealth Tables or the Treasure by Level tables.
Thank you for this reply! This is very helpful in predicting the "amount I should probably expect" and if it really IS about 800k ( a little under ) then it suddenly makes sense why wands, scrolls, staves, random extra consumables etc are baked in/expected. That makes it much easier to learn tons of spells and then craft scrolls and be able to use them when their turn comes and have a few wands, sleeves of storage, etc. This makes way more sense to me.
For reference to everyone it is literally called the "Treasure by Level" table and you can find it here:
Treasure by level and it was recommended you divide the total value by 4 which approximates 125,000gp. Which seemed low, but I also am probably reading the chart wrong or using it wrong.
The treasure by level chart is treasure gained each level, a level 20 party gains 400 thousand whatever GP during level 20, not has that much value at level 20 (they have the value from previous levels)
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The treasure by level chart is treasure gained each level, a level 20 party gains 400 thousand whatever GP during level 20, not has that much value at level 20 (they have the value from previous levels)For reference to everyone it is literally called the "Treasure by Level" table and you can find it here:
Treasure by level and it was recommended you divide the total value by 4 which approximates 125,000gp. Which seemed low, but I also am probably reading the chart wrong or using it wrong.
Ooooh, that makes more sense. Okay, well I think that's good to know. Based on the Treasure by Encounters chart and then doing the math on the costs of the fundamental and property runes for a Gish Necromancer (i.e. Reaper) keeping up with a staff (personal which I think is +20/-20 of a regular staff) and math fixer items for most of the character's career they're just going to have to focus on pure fundamental runes, ignore property runes i.e. frost, astral, etc as luxury items until they level 20 lol. I'm behind the curve on income vs when items become available of their level.
The items available and total cost vs Treasure by Encounter
All that to say: the more I research the game the less I feel like I know how to play it haha. I have no idea what is going on anymore.