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So I created a big brain dump document about the setting I am trying to create and the optional rules I'd like to try and run. I've been playing as a regular player since 2019 from home games to Pathfinder Society to a westmarch called WorldWeep on the unofficial Pathfinder 2e Discord, but I myself have only GMed in Worldweep a few times as 1 shots.
If anyone could review my document and has any insight as an experienced DM or any suggestions or anything I would appreciate it.
I have areas of concern like:
- I need a lot of maps for foundry, where does everyone get a bunch of maps from? I have some paizo maps in my library but I don't know how they work
- I need a lot of tokens for enemies, and I think I bought some foundry packs, but I am not sure
- I want to create a bounty board for a "pick a quest" type system to start off with, like in Monster Hunter or all the Isekai anime with an adventurer's guild where you pick some low level bounties that are like "kill some goblins" type thing but I'm not sure how to do it
- I have to figure out how to set up music in Foundry for atmosphere but I think my soundscape add-on is defunct and I'm not sure how to do it
Without further ado I have the document which can be read here from my google drive and also has comments turned on but also you can comment here any advise or insight or anything else that might come up as a GM:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VWI3UEpUP-WmL167xA5fzqTJegG9dUI06LPrij1 vSHQ/edit?tab=t.0
Edit: Actually I don't really know how to format well on this forum but would it be better to just copy/paste the entire contents of the document to here?
Long ago, the barrier between the mortal world and the Spirit Realm began to weaken. Ghosts, curses, demons, and restless dead now appear throughout civilization. Most people can neither see nor fight them, but those born with "The Sight" can perceive the supernatural and manipulate spiritual magic, however those gifted with divine magic, or even primal magic as well as studying the arcane can all be effective against such spirits.
Because of this, either one kingdom or various kingdoms came together to found the Black Lantern Academy, a school dedicated to training Spirit Wardens, although this is merely a title for martials and casters of all traditions are welcome. (Should there be rival schools or just one school? Should each kingdom have their own school?)
Using the Pervasive Magic variant from Secrets of Magic, magic is everywhere. Students learn not just arcane spells, but spirit rituals, talismans, exorcisms, barrier techniques, and monster hunting. Primal casters, Divine Casters, and especially occult casters may also find something useful, and as always, there is support for the more martially inclined students. Sometimes the best way to beat a spirit back is with raw power.
Optional Rules Considered:
- Free Archetype (More character expression, more fun. Hello, Runelord + Undead Master + Lich archetype all on one character? Me thinks yes. Just try to build for cool/flavor than just min/maxing or trying to break the game math. Just make cool guys.)
- Automatic Bonus Progression (I think this gives room to have cooler loot and more focused and flashier items than “yeah I got my mage’s hat for my +1 to arcana so my wizard can be better at learning spells cuz like that’s the classes entire identity” which feels more like an item tax than getting actual cool items you might really want)
- Pervasive Magic (Kind of inspired the entire settings in the first place tbh)
- Item/Relic Sets (I just think they’re neat)
- Potential Ancestry Paragon (It feels very feast or famine, with some ancestries feasting with tons of great feats to flesh them out, and some with little to no support begging for either a “forced” versatile heritage or simply picking dead/bad feats or no feats which can feel bad, especially with a mixture of ancestries of those who are haves and those who are have nots in the same game)
- Maybe Proficiency Without Level (I’ve seen mixed reviews with like a 50/50 split on love it or hate it, I don’t know a lot about it but from the love it crowd it seems intriguing)
The academy serves as the players' home base.
Students attend classes between adventures which can grant access to various boons, for example:
- Spirit Lore players would get access/learn the um advanced lore skill feat thingy that automatically improves proficiency as you level to spirit lore/undead lore/etc
- Demonology which can grant students the holy sanctification to enhance their damage against the unholy creatures they fight
- Curse Breaking which can give players a circumstance bonus to defeating haunts and curses found throughout the adventure
- Alchemy which provides alchemical supplies before each mission as well as potentially an alchemist or alchemy related dedication
- Weapon Training: useful downtime for learning new technique for martial characters to further their training
- Ritual Magic which grants access to various rituals to casters that will help with their field work.
- Field Survival which will grant access to healing potions and other consumables to help with each mission
- Research potentially tied into gathering information as a downtime activity, the research rules in GM Core to figure out what type monster they’re hunting, like Wesley in Angel or Giles in Buffy, or otherwise finding out more information to get people involved and to help strengthen the identity of prepared vs spontaneous casters? It seems like it fits
Professors assign exams, practical exercises, and eventually real field work. The exams and practical exercises may be things like downtime to craft items, earn income, gather information and other steps to prepare for the mission ahead making intricate use of the downtime rules which will tie into a, hopefully, clean gameplay loop.
Something to the effect of: Do downtime to either gather information, craft important items, learn new spells and abilities or retrain, then set off on the mission, hopefully complete the mission, return and get rewards and then take downtime before setting off on the next mission. Obviously real field work is where the missions happen and is the combat and exploration portion of the game, ideally.
Instead of a traditional adventurer’s guild, the academy operates an Assignment Hall which is a massive bounty board which contains requests from villages, nobles, churches, merchants, and governments as well as single individuals. Each assignment is graded by a rank which the students can climb as they improve in their abilities, enabling them to take on tougher missions.
Assignments include:
- Haunted houses which will make use of the haunt system introduced in, I believe, Dark Archives
- Missing persons/Investigating disappearances which will hopefully give some measure of survival and tracking type missions to enhance the class fantasy of rangers and character archetypes like that. Thaumaturges, Investigators, and so forth.
- Possessed children this may be a ritual or a skill check in which the players need to perform a ceremony to dispel the possession and then defeat the spirit which manifests
- Cursed relic recovery obviously a “recover the item” type quest. Potentially, as above mentioned curse breaking courses, may be able to cleanse the item and may be ways to obtain pivotal gear from player “wish lists” for certain items.
- Destroying undead nests very simple combat focused missions that may tie into a deeper story later on
- Escorting ritualists narratively essentially escorting spellcasters which will eventually cast rituals to either close dimensional portals or stabilize areas or other rituals which may help with finding people or even locating undead nests or other spirits/demons of interest
- Hunting rogue demons probably something like the culmination of an adventure, like investigating an area, then fighting some lesser threats and ending in something like a boss battle as the primary target of a mission which, again, can facilitate Rangers and hunt prey, Investigators tracking down a target, thaumaturges doing thaumaturge stuff, etc.
- Mysterious Circumstances coinciding with various anime and other inspiration something like disappearing towns that fall into mist, or other important sites or locations whose mystery needs to be unraveled and the creatures/beings behind the magic at hand stopped to save the people in question
- Investigating Cryptids at this point monsters, to most people, aren’t real and only those with “The Sight” can see or interact with this part of the world. Therefore cryptids, to most, don’t exist. However the Academy knows differently and thus dispatches agents to investigate and catalogue, or perhaps even slay out of control cryptids.
- Dark Archives quite literally using the Stolen casefiles to intersperse throughout the adventure to possibly tie into the greater narrative
Mission types could be combined, i.e. missing persons could lead to destroying undead nests, or escorting ritualists to do a scrying spell to locate a missing person and upon finding them, finding a cursed relic. Blending and mixing adventures/missions together to create more cohesive narratives later, but initially probably creating multiple “pathfinder scenario” type “bounties” similar to Pathfinder Society 1 shot scenarios that eventually get tied together, but for the beginning of the campaign is kind of just grinding levels and ranks to get a feel for the gameplay loop and preparing multiple scenarios for the players to choose from in the Assignment Hall.
Each completed mission earns:
- Academy reputation using the reputation in GM Core, or a homebrewed deeper version potentially
- Promotion in rank (I want to create a ranking system inspired by typical isekai type anime like bronze, silver, gold, etc up to orichalcum and adamantite style adventurer ranks? Or is this redundant with academy reputation? Too many layers?)
- Better equipment as provided by the school armory/shop. The school should have everything an adventurer needs, and for rare items perhaps specific missions need to be undertaken to gain the materials so the school can make it. Tie it all together. However, probably few things should be off limits. I would include like uncommon and rare spells in this and have a school library that grants access to such things
- Access to Advanced Classes within the school which, tied with rank and reputation could grant greater benefits to the characters. More circumstance bonuses with higher numbers, more consumables or higher rank/grade(?)/item level(?) consumables, etc. Or perhaps this is where uncommon/rare spells/rituals may be unlocked?
- Aftermath Feats if applicable? Aftermath Feats appear in Dark Archives around page 55
Gold
Hopefully this reinforces, as said above, the gameplay loop of accepting a quest/bounty/mission, doing downtime prep work to get prepared, gather information, sort of figure out the parameters of the mission, go out and do the mission, come back and get rewards, then repeat the cycle. Hopefully it’s fun?
While students deal with local hauntings, something much worse is happening beneath the world. As the students complete their lower level missions and do the above gameplay loop I imagine at some point something like either proper dungeons, or mini dungeons at least such as: Ancient catacombs, forgotten temples, and buried cities have begun opening around the world which beg for investigation. These would provide rewards as above. The question is, are the rewards self contained? It would probably suck to do a whole ass dungeon with no rewards and having to wait to return to the academy to cash in, right? How do dungeons tie into the overall established gameplay loop. Something to think about. A problem for later?
As the influence of whatever is causing this phenomenon strengthens you may see:
- Skeletons and Zombies and other lesser undead which may ambush players in graveyards by popping out of the ground when investigating other missions as outlined above
- General Undead i.e. vampires, ghouls, wraiths and other undead type monsters.
- Something about cursed energy and haunts possibly materializing spirit type enemies that need to be taken down, which also may tie into the above “rogue demon” but perhaps should simply be a “rogue monster” category?
- Cultists which may be worshipping the demons, empowering them (if a demon with cultists is elite, does defeating them weaken them to normal, or even the weakened template? Can combat be so dynamic in PF2E?)
- Fallen angels (or is this just covered by Erinyes or whatever they’re called in remaster?)
- Demons of various types, and/or also devils? Fiends in general? How does the breaking up of such categories in D&D and pathfinder lore come together here?
- Necromancers performing profane rituals, perhaps the opposite of the above mission type of escorting ritualists, but rather stopping rituals from opening more portals/summoning more crypts or whatever
- Velstracs performing sadistic experiments for a client
The campaign gradually shifts from ghost-hunting mysteries to desperate expeditions into increasingly horrific dungeons, much like the descent beneath Tristram in Diablo I. Something about the burning legion using the scourge to weaken the world's defenses in preparation for an invasion.
Although in Diablo, it was essentially 1 single mega-dungeon in which every level goes deeper, and every enemy grows stronger, gradually becoming more severe. I don’t know if I want to do a singular mega-dungeon, or spread it out like many isekei/fantasy anime where there are “legendary dungeons spread throughout the world that need to be conquered/explored for…” well a lot of the shows never actually get that far, I think? Lol either way, maybe multiple dungeons, maybe one giga-mega-dungeon.
An idea lives in my head that, perhaps much like Berserk when Griffith becomes Femto and is reborn, the fairy tale world and the real world begin to converge, and things once thought impossible or unreal begin leaking into the world. Also inspired by warhammer fantasy, potentially adding a bit of grimdarkness to the game, such as villagers last stands against invading Orc or Troll armies, dragons emerging, and other legendary creatures of fairy tales and folklore appearing and beginning to terrorize the world. Regular men and women being confronted with the bizarre, the strange and potentially growing as dark as the troll saga in Berserk, or keeping it PG-13, depending on player discretion. Fade to black or implied, or certain subjects skirted, but the idea of like the “Empire of Man” in a hostile world (I.e. warhammer fantasy) holding back the darkness as it slowly engulfs the world.
Either way, with whatever degree of grimdarkness or not sprinkled in, eventually the players learn that someone, or something, is intentionally weakening the barrier between worlds in order to invade for their own designs, again, see the above Burning Legion -> Scourge invasion idea taken from Warcraft. Specifically warcraft 3.
Campaign Structure
Early Levels (1–4):
- School life where downtime matters and can be emphasized on for characters strengths and class fantasy. I.e. crafters (inventors, runesmiths, generally people with crafting invested into) can make things, spellcasters can learn spells, lean into the benefits of the “classes”, the “gathering information type” classes can scout out, learn information and generally help the prepared casters know what’s coming and what to expect like Investigators, Rangers, Thaumaturges, etc. I want each class to shine with downtime and to flex on these rules to enhance the “active” part of the game.
- Small hauntings which involve the haunts and traps in order to vary encounter design so they aren’t all just kill missions over and over, unless players prefer simple kill missions.
- Spirit mysteries and disappearances/missing persons, which again, lean into various class fantasies and strengths, hopefully
Village requests for simple “kill xyz” monsters or “xyz has gone missing, please help” type missions which can be pulled from the Assignment Hall in order for players to kind of “choose their own adventure” at first
- Yokai encounters which will be “hunting rogue demons” category as well as manifested spirit energy into malevolent entities which could be impromptu emergency bounties or encounters combined with other mission types as an investigation they’re on coalesces the evil spirit energy into an active force
Mid Levels (5–10):
- Powerful curses something, something, counter curse effects, spells like remove affliction, as well as rituals to purify cursed objects which can in turn become powerful relics (relic system, relic set rules hello?) for players as well as rituals to defeat more powerful “haunts” from Dark Archives
- Demon cults I will forever have this scene from a Gotrek and Felix book where these slaanesh worshippers (and possibly beastmen) are cavorting in the woods doing some dark, diabolic ritual and gotrek and felix stumble upon the thing. It’s written like an insane fever dream, and it feels scary and hectic as they’re trying to survive these insane cultists. Maybe I can make something as cool as that story. Also just generally stopping people from summoning demons type missions.
- Undead crypts this is probably where mini dungeons or regular dungeons start appearing as described above already. Our first forays from single, bounty style missions to longer form elaborate dungeon design.
- Rival students encountering rival groups of adventuring NPCs who go to the same school, introduce the reputation system here, as well as a few other NPC systems like the Influence system, perhaps? Either way, I imagine later on, when things get serious the various teams, and maybe even teachers need to band together to fight greater threats probably in the 11-16 section.
- Regional disasters something, something permeating magic, disastrous/hazardous landscapes and even the aforementioned mysterious disappearances of places/towns that need to be looked into
High Levels (11–16):
- Ancient Catacombs more complex and larger dungeons which need to be delved to recover more cursed artifacts and uncover their mysteries in order to gain enough power to stop what’s happening
- Forgotten Temples would begin spawning around the world which may be focal points or channeling sites that are creating points of entry or weakening the barrier between the physical and spiritual world. Perhaps dungeons, or sites, that need to be invaded and taken down to close the portals/stop the ritualists to stop the enemies plans
- Hell gates opening which are leading to pouring out of lesser demons. I don’t know if mass combat works in PF2E, but perhaps a bunch of PL -1 through -4 or something enemies that can be defeated in droves and require a ritual or some kind of objective system/victory point thing to close/stabilize the portals? Perhaps a type of mission board with followers/fellow NPC students (former rivals?), teachers which can be commanded to go on missions and report back later with success?
- Ancient liches and other greater undead, like vampire lords, etc commanding armies of undead which may need to be dealt with if it isn’t too broad in scope. Perhaps these are the entities operating from and living within the ancient catacombs or defending the forgotten temples. Forces of evil which need to be confronted.
- Demon lords which are commanding the liches and other greater undead, like “final boss” type monsters which could be high points in an ancient catacombs dungeon or forgotten temples as like climaxes to the adventure in question
- Tying things together I want to kind of bring the storyline together of the previous era of isolated incidents as the broader plan and tapestry comes together to reveal the plot at large of the invasion being lead by at least one greater individual commanding all these other points of interest
End game (17-20):
- Journey to Hell/The Abyss/Final End game zone now that the players have shut down these temples and other points of access for the other side they need to actually go into the other side to end the threat and make a final stand. Perhaps this shouldn’t be quick, but rather a whole landscape and era unto itself
- Final mega-dungeon Whether it’s the landscape itself, the plane of existence itself or an actual location, this should be the final “zone” and final, culminating end point that focuses down to feeling like a building finale
- Final encounter defeating whatever evil god, gods, giga-demon lords, or whoever is behind the plot (LITERALLY DIABLO HIMSELF?) campaign ends. Everyone cheers.
Imagine a blend of:
40% Jujutsu Kaisen / Blue Exorcist / Black Torch / Soul Eater (academy life and spirit combat)
25% Mushishi / xxxHolic (supernatural investigations and folklore)
20% Generic isekai adventurer guild (missions, ranks, rewards, bounty board, monster hunter even)
15% Diablo I (gothic horror, undead, and demonic descent)
Maybe 10% Berserk/Warhamer Fantasy (varying degrees of comfortability with grim darkness, humanity fighting against threats greater than itself, villages making last stands against fairy tale armies, etc.)
Hopefully the result is a focused campaign where players experience both the camaraderie of a magical academy and the satisfaction of taking on bounty missions and a kind of “choose your own adventure” environment, all while uncovering a much darker conspiracy that leads them into terrifying, Diablo 1-inspired depths beneath the world. I want to retain the “choose your own adventure” style with, perhaps, introducing a “mission table” type thing where they can command NPCs to do things when the world at large is in danger so it kind of feels like an all hands on deck situation where there are various threats simultaneously around the later levels i.e. 11-16 and it sort of feeds a sense of urgency about what problems to solve, when, and where. I want the natural gameplay loop of train/downtime → accept assignments → investigate → complete mission → earn rewards → grow stronger → uncover the next layer of the mystery and repeat. Although there may be friction within the later levels as dungeon delving and downtime seem kind of mutually exclusive as well as the whole urgency thing. Maybe suspension of disbelief? Haha
To do:
- Create a more nuanced reputation system, potentially influenced by the world of warcraft model from hated through to exalted?
- Create a school adventure grading system and the implications (Do I use the SS, S, A, B, etc system, or the wood, iron, bronze, silver, gold, etc like League system [or Overlord the anime, and others] or the monster hunter star system?)
- Create more advanced and better classes from the school that offer more powerful rewards
- Figure out what advanced training might look like
- Figure out what kind of rewards or access a rare class might unlock perhaps the secrets to something like becoming a Lich or something along those lines?
As far as foundry maps go I have tried a few different ways but I found it pretty easy to use Krita(free art software) to draw the map i want.
It will come out as basic or as advanced as your ability but even a basic map you color in can look neat when you import it into foundry. The bonus being everything is exactly as you wanted it to be.
it is a bit of work to do this for every area so I do it when i want something specific.
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My general GM advice is to progress from 1 shots that you've done, to 3-4 session mini campaigns, to a full blown long-form campaign set in a custom world like you're suggesting. You're biting off a lot right now and its easy to burn yourself out, have misalignment between what you're writing and how you find longer games actually go, and there's a good likelihood of the game sputtering out early and putting some of your effort on later portions to waste.
I think you've got some great ideas and encourage you to go forward, though.
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As far as foundry maps go I have tried a few different ways but I found it pretty easy to use Krita(free art software) to draw the map i want.
It will come out as basic or as advanced as your ability but even a basic map you color in can look neat when you import it into foundry. The bonus being everything is exactly as you wanted it to be.
it is a bit of work to do this for every area so I do it when i want something specific.
I used to make my own maps in DungeonDraft, and I also tried Dungeon Alchemy, but I am afraid that making my own maps for every single session and sometimes multiple maps for the early game where it's more "choose your own adventure" might burn me out. But maybe if I start preparing everything now, in advance and then later actually run the game I could get well ahead of schedule?
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My general GM advice is to progress from 1 shots that you've done, to 3-4 session mini campaigns, to a full blown long-form campaign set in a custom world like you're suggesting. You're biting off a lot right now and its easy to burn yourself out, have misalignment between what you're writing and how you find longer games actually go, and there's a good likelihood of the game sputtering out early and putting some of your effort on later portions to waste.
I think you've got some great ideas and encourage you to go forward, though.
Thanks! I feel like I still need to flesh some things out, but you are right. I might be doing a lot of prep work for nothing.
Then again, people are always looking for games way more than they are trying to GM, so maybe I can just keep gambling on people/parties until one sticks it out haha. Or at least I can get multiple tries so I can improve and refine my campaign.
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I used to make my own maps in DungeonDraft, and I also tried Dungeon Alchemy, but I am afraid that making my own maps for every single session and sometimes multiple maps for the early game where it's more "choose your own adventure" might burn me out. But maybe if I start preparing everything now, in advance and then later actually run the game I could get well ahead of schedule?As far as foundry maps go I have tried a few different ways but I found it pretty easy to use Krita(free art software) to draw the map i want.
It will come out as basic or as advanced as your ability but even a basic map you color in can look neat when you import it into foundry. The bonus being everything is exactly as you wanted it to be.
it is a bit of work to do this for every area so I do it when i want something specific.
Burn out is real.
Likely better to have a few general maps you can use more universally and then draw out the ones for boss fights.|
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I used to make my own maps in DungeonDraft, and I also tried Dungeon Alchemy, but I am afraid that making my own maps for every single session and sometimes multiple maps for the early game where it's more "choose your own adventure" might burn me out. But maybe if I start preparing everything now, in advance and then later actually run the game I could get well ahead of schedule?
If you buy Paizo Humble Bundles you should have accumulated a pile of 'free' maps you should be able to load into Foundry. Additionally, there's a bunch of free map modules in Foundry by various people, and if you have any official AP there's even more to plunder. Do them up, put in themed folders, and don't feel ashamed of reusing the same Forest map across multiple sessions. Your players won't care, especially if you have them enter from different parts of the map (official APs offasionally rotate the maps to get extra use out of them).
Houses are going to be a bigger weakness if you haven't been building up flipmat jpegs in your digital orders
This is great advice, thank you. I didn't know about the free maps thing, and I have bought a few humble bundles before, but often they have things I already have, but if you can pick and choose that would make it even better! I'm not very familiar with humble bundle tbh. However, I also didn't know about the free foundry map databases, and that is also very clutch! Thank you so much.
I recommend taking a good look at Strength of Thousands for how you may want to structure this.
This adventure path? I don't have it, but I can get it if it will help me be a better GM. Thank you for the suggestion, anything helps!
I would strongly recommend not having Free Archetype so that you can offer more feat-based rewards for going down certain mission and academic trees. Have each academic class correspond to a small pool of archetypes and levelling up that class, whether through downtime studying or taking specific missions, unlocks higher level feat slots. Keep them to a maximum of two tracks per character, and players will be incentivised to seek missions corresponding to the tracks they take. This means each character can theoretically have thrice as much feats as base, or 1.5x of FA, which is why I don't recommend adding FA on top of it. If you want Ancestral Paragon, you could tie it into the academic system as well. Put most of it in one unified system for ease of tracking of the players.
I had not actually considered this. I know most people enjoy Free Archetype, but more like FA slots but restricted to build design could be fun. OTOH the thing that makes me pause about this is the same thing as like Mythic, where sometimes when it's not fully open, someone gets stuck with a thing they just pick because nothing really "fits the character".
OTOH as the GM, and since everyone would start level 1, and I'd actually get to see whose characters are what, perhaps I can make a more informed tailored list? Although I'm not sure if your suggestion to is homebrew new feats or create a curated list of extant feats and archetypes tied to a class.
Like the most obvious one would be the Alchemy class gives Alchemy benefits, which could be broken down further into things like Poisoner or Wandering Chef as choices.
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Free Archetype (More character expression, more fun. Hello, Runelord + Undead Master + Lich archetype all on one character? Me thinks yes. Just try to build for cool/flavor than just min/maxing or trying to break the game math. Just make cool guys.)
FA is fun, but if you're going to be giving out feats and things as rewards you don't want to also have FA. Unless you do restricted FA and then open up the restrictions as people gain access to things.
With unrestricted FA, you tend to see some options pop up a lot because they just pair nicely with other things. But there's nothing really wrong with allowing it if you don't plan to give out feat rewards or anything like that.
Automatic Bonus Progression (I think this gives room to have cooler loot and more focused and flashier items than “yeah I got my mage’s hat for my +1 to arcana so my wizard can be better at learning spells cuz like that’s the classes entire identity” which feels more like an item tax than getting actual cool items you might really want)
Bear in mind that ABP helps martials more than casters, and you'll need to skew loot to casters somewhat to make up for that fact. In the normal system, martials spend a lot of money on weapons and armor. ABP effectively gives that out for free. Casters largely don't benefit from weapons in nearly the same way and things like staves are not included.
YMMV with this one. I'm not a fan of it personally because it makes so many bonuses automatic on levelling that it feels like most items don't really make a difference. Sure you get an item with a cool ability, but that item has a DC and it's obsolete in a couple levels, and you also don't care about its item bonus (because that doesn't exist).
As written, it also has a major impact on Alchemy. Alchemy bonuses are item bonuses which don't exist in ABP and it's a huge nerf to a lot of alchemical items.
There's a variant on this called Automatic Rune Progression that is less invasive.
Item/Relic Sets (I just think they’re neat)
They are!
Potential Ancestry Paragon (It feels very feast or famine, with some ancestries feasting with tons of great feats to flesh them out, and some with little to no support begging for either a “forced” versatile heritage or simply picking dead/bad feats or no feats which can feel bad, especially with a mixture of ancestries of those who are haves and those who are have nots in the same game)
The challenge with Ancestry Paragon is that some ancestries have expansive feat options and thus you get to get some variety with it. A lot of ancestries only exist in one book, have relatively few options, and giving people more feats from a small pool makes everyone from that ancestry effectively the same. The worst case is something like Shoony where you literally get more ancestry feats than are available with Ancestral Paragon, so you're forced into taking a versatile heritage.
Maybe Proficiency Without Level (I’ve seen mixed reviews with like a 50/50 split on love it or hate it, I don’t know a lot about it but from the love it crowd it seems intriguing)
This drastically alters the game. Folks that love it like that. Just make sure you're prepared for that, including cases where the PWoL rules don't actually work that well, like how simple DCs are MUCH harder than in the standard rules and Assurance doesn't really work.
ie: in a normal game, Assurance can hit the DC 30 Master Medicine check to Treat Wounds/Battle Medicine by level 14. In a PWoL game, that DC is 25 and Assurance can never hit it. (In fact, I don't think Assurance hit the expert DC at 20 either, while in a normal game it can at level 6.) Legendary DCs at 30 are exceptionally difficult, far beyond the normal system.
If you do want to do this, be prepared to adjudicate and adjust things that don't work as expected. I'd also suggest Flatfinder, which is a set of rules to deal with some of the issues PWoL has.
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Free Archetype (More character expression, more fun. Hello, Runelord + Undead Master + Lich archetype all on one character? Me thinks yes. Just try to build for cool/flavor than just min/maxing or trying to break the game math. Just make cool guys.)FA is fun, but if you're going to be giving out feats and things as rewards you don't want to also have FA. Unless you do restricted FA and then open up the restrictions as people gain access to things.
With unrestricted FA, you tend to see some options pop up a lot because they just pair nicely with other things. But there's nothing really wrong with allowing it if you don't plan to give out feat rewards or anything like that.
Automatic Bonus Progression (I think this gives room to have cooler loot and more focused and flashier items than “yeah I got my mage’s hat for my +1 to arcana so my wizard can be better at learning spells cuz like that’s the classes entire identity” which feels more like an item tax than getting actual cool items you might really want)Bear in mind that ABP helps martials more than casters, and you'll need to skew loot to casters somewhat to make up for that fact. In the normal system, martials spend a lot of money on weapons and armor. ABP effectively gives that out for free. Casters largely don't benefit from weapons in nearly the same way and things like staves are not included.
YMMV with this one. I'm not a fan of it personally because it makes so many bonuses automatic on levelling that it feels like most items don't really make a difference. Sure you get an item with a cool ability, but that item has a DC and it's obsolete in a couple levels, and you also don't care about its item bonus (because that doesn't exist).
As written, it also has a major impact on Alchemy. Alchemy bonuses are item bonuses which don't exist in ABP and it's a huge nerf to a lot of alchemical items.
There's a variant on this called Automatic Rune Progression that is less invasive....
This was some very good insight. I actually think I can combine ideas that support other ideas, such as advanced classes that give deeper feats and having a kind of structured FA system.
Like weapons training and combat drills classes could offer all of the fighting style ones, i.e. Bastion for shield users, mauler for two handed weapons, dual weapon fighter, aldorei duelist, etc.
Demonology may offer thaumaturge, cleric and a few other Archetypes and kind of have an "archetype pool".
If a player wants a certain archetype (i dont even have players this is just a passion project and hopefully I can find at least 4 somewhere?) I'm sure I can work it into the classes system and mission system and so forth.
I think I agree on ABP, I do like the automatic runic one though, but I also like when players make a wishlist and I get to work off that to fill out loot so its meaningful and something I know a player for sure wants.
Or maybe thats just me projecting because I neurotically plan out every little detail of my char in advance...
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OTOH as the GM, and since everyone would start level 1, and I'd actually get to see whose characters are what, perhaps I can make a more informed tailored list? Although I'm not sure if your suggestion to is homebrew new feats or create a curated list of extant feats and archetypes tied to a class.
Like the most obvious one would be the Alchemy class gives Alchemy benefits, which could be broken down further into things like Poisoner or Wandering Chef as choices.
What I did personally for my campaigns (APs but with limited Archetypes) was known archetypes but occasionally fleshed out with additional feats (I gave AP spellcasting archetypes the expert/master feats they sometimes lack, for instance, and appended some Champion feats to enhance Undead Slayer)
You have some obvious lines here, already, based on your curriculum
Lore can grant those knowledge-based archetypes. Folklorist, Loremaster, Linguist, Campfire Chronicler
Demonology is a bit tricky because no current archetype grants what you want; I recommend adapting Undead Slayer and borrowing some CHampion Archetype feats (or just flat out Champion feats at level + 2) to up the holy damage and demon smiting. You can add Pactbinder and Living Vessel for a darker take.
Curse Breaking seems to eat into the anti-undead space here; Curse Maelstorm is the obvious pick but it seems you also want Exorcist and if you dare Blessed Necromancer (you'll need quite some effort to figure out what spells apply for that one; I recommend changing 'necromancy' to 'vitality and spirit/holy'). Maybe Archeologist for trap searching?
Alchemy is the obvious pick for any of the crafting archetypes, whether it's Wandering Chef, Poisoner or Fireworks Technician. Maybe even Alchemist dedication, I wouldn't recommend class archetypes in general due to mental load and power, but anyone taking this lesson is asking for that mental load
Weapon Training is where you dump those weapon archetypes. Archer,...
Actually this Free Archetype but with limitations is helping me put together a nice pool to draw from that is probably broad enough that someone can find something they like. I really appreciate advice like this and I want to start making a pool of archetypes that follow certain classes.
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Yes, free archetype is a good concept that helps people who like to have choices, but feel upset that there are so many options, that they feel like they feel pushed to only take the most effective choice, and can't reach out to pick something more flavored.
As mentioned, starting with completely open Free Archetype, could overwhelm some players, so that is a worthwhile consideration when choosing it. By narrowing its starting scope, it also gives you the option of widening what feats can be spent on as future 'boons' given to the players. So things the players accomplish in game could open up the ability to access new archetypes to pursue, or could even open up specific uncommon feats that could be bought using those free archetype feat slots outside of the current archetype they are in, 'because' of the in game reasons they have unlocked. That also helps remedy the situation which can happen with some archetypes where there isn't enough of 'particularly' interesting things in the archetype, especially early on that people would want, that you feel forced to buy a low level feat you might not want, because it is a free feat, and you can't spend it anything else.
Another thing to consider if using free archetype, if someone really wants to double-down on their current class, and not widen themselves, some players might feel cheated they can't 'focus' on their class, that they have to do something else. A common option given in free archetype games is to let them spend their free Archetype feats on their primary class, but the class feat has to be half the Archetype Feat's level, since normally multiclass feats limit you to lower level choices.
Also I saw you mentioned Ancestral Paragon as something you wanted to consider. Perhaps you could make:
Ancestral Adept Dedication 2.
This first feat of the Archetype grants you the Ancestral Paragon general feat irrespective of prerequisites. (since it is technically a 3rd level general feat)
Ancestral Expert 4
Prerequisite: Ancestral Adept Dedication
Whether through instinct, study, or magic, you feel an even deeper connection to your ancestry. You gain another 1st-level ancestry feat..
Ancestral Master 6
Prerequisite: Ancestral Adept Dedication
Grants you an extra Ancestry feat up to half you level of the Archetype Feat's Level
This can be taken more than once, each time getting a different Ancestry feat you qualify for based on the Archetype Feat's level.
Ancestral Pinnacle 14
Prerequisite: Ancestral Master
Grants you an extra Ancestry feat of level at least 4 levels less of the Archetype Feat's Level.
As far as ABP I have to admit I dislike removing all of it from being able to be something that magic does. I would have preferred if Magic Items could have/would have been able to unlock greater damage early to players who have them, rather than it being an exclusive, only leveling ups grants you additional damage dice, or only magic weapons give you greater damage dice. I haven't gotten to actually play it this way, but what feels like a better choice would be to allow 'striking runes' which are most beneficial to give people extra damage early based on their level. But allow Skill and Level also trigger the equivalent damage increase to the damage. So to get 2 dice you wield a weapon with a striking rune, or be 4th level and Expert. For 3 Dice, wield a greater striking rune or be 12th level and Master. For 4 Dice have a Major Striking rune or be 19th level with Legendary proficiency. If someone wielded a weapon whose striking rune was made redundant by their skill/level, I was tempted to say convert it to a +2/3/4 HP to the damage for striking/greater/major as a boost. It makes fighters almost auto advance as if using a magic item, many marshals will lag a bit and thus do better keeping up with magic, but the non-martial classes will tend to want to use magic weapons if attacking with weapons (which seems ok as that seems it wouldn't be their primary thing) It is certainly more complicated but would be better flavor for me. Honestly, however, all the games I've played I can remember we have simply run it with items as raw.
Finally, on a completely different note, if looking for maps, I have to add that I like a lot of the maps provided by SeafootGames which provides a bunch of free ones, and if you find them useful, they have choices you can make to help support them, and get more variety/more maps.
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I kind of created a curated list of archetypes from the available "Classes" offered by the Academy. Any thoughts or revisions?
Classes and Associated Available Archetypes:
Spirit Lore Grants: Additional Lore: Undead, Necromancy, Diabolic, Demonology, Campfire Chronicler, Folklorist Dedication, Linguist Dedication, Loremaster Dedication
Demonology Grants: Champion Dedication, Cleric Dedication, Thaumaturge Dedication, Living Vessel Dedication, Soul Warden Dedication, Undead Slayer Archetype, Wyldeheart Dedication
Curse Breaking Grants: Animist Dedication, Bard Dedication, Curse Maelstrom Dedication, Exorcist Dedication, Hallowed Necromancer Dedication, Investigator Dedication, Oracle Dedication
Alchemy Grants: Alchemist Dedication, Herbalist Dedication, Fireworks Technician Dedication, Poisoner Dedication, Wandering Chef Dedication
Weapon Training: Grants: Aldorei Duelist dedication, Archer Dedication, Assassin Dedication, Barbarian Dedication, Bastion Dedication, Clawdancer Dedication, Commander Dedication, Crossbow Infiltrator Dedication, Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication, Duelist Dedication, Eldritch Archer Dedication, Fan Dancer Dedication, Fighter Dedication, Guardian Dedication, Gunslinger Dedication, Kineticist Dedication, Magus Dedication, Martial Artist Dedication, Mauler Dedication, Swashbuckler Dedication, Weapon Improviser Dedication, Winged Warrior Dedication, Wrestler Dedication
Ritual Magic Grants: Hedge Mage Dedication, Familiar Master Dedication, Necrologist Dedication, Necromancer Dedication, Pactbinder Dedication, Psychic Dedication, Ritualist Dedication, Sorcerer Dedication, Summoner Dedication, Talisman Dabbler Dedication, Witch Dedication, Wizard Dedication
Field Survival Grants: Druid Dedication, Guerilla Dedication, Medic Dedication, Ranger Dedication, Rogue Dedication, Scout Dedication, Snarecrafter Dedication
Research Grants: Archaeologist Dedication, Horizon Walker Dedication, Inventor Dedication, Runesmith Dedication, Scrollmaster Dedication
Although I kind of also want more ephemeral benefits, as well. Like when you do Field Survival, or Alchemy, much like in Monster Hunter how at the beginning of a hunt there's some spare, free consumables i.e. healing potions, usually some food for stamina, and maybe something relevant to the mission like free smoke bombs and a trap, I think offering minor free consumables i.e. Scrolls, Potions, Alchemical Items of various types, etc could also be a class bonus. Thoughts or opinions?
Also I wanted to also use the Research Subsystem for Research, Ritual classes would be exactly where a pre-existing spellcaster, no dedication, but just like a Necromancer that wants to learn Create Undead would go to learn exactly that ritual, and any rituals for any spellcaster. Curse Breaking could be where the party takes Cursed items like from Dragon Quest to get them cleansed, like how there's always an NPC that can decurse items, and perhaps identify them too, like in Diablo in town.
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You might look at Pathfinder Society as a start of a model for your suggestion about getting a consumable at the start of the adventure.
There can be a basic item, like potion available to anyone, but being associated with certain schools might open up the choice to pick a more specific type of consumable.
The way Pathfinder Society has it, you get the consumable at the beginning of the adventure, but if you don't use it you turn it back in, so there isn't an incentive not to use it and try to horde it.
Take a look at Pathfinder Provisions
More academic factions could offer all sorts of scrolls or such. More martial factions potentially offer weapon blanches. You could potentially find talismans that might make sense to be tied to various factions.
I would even suggest that you could consider having something like a spellheart be potentially available at some level. The Wayfinder is a symbol of the Pathfinder Society and is a little reminiscent of SpellHearts. So you could consider having each faction have a different distinct one available to its more established members. Wayfinder access reference In Pathfinder Society, I don't believe they are free, but you gain access to them (so you can pay for one to get one, if you find it useful) They are somewhat customizable since they can give you safer access to an effect from any one Aeon stone you get to put in it.
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You might look at Pathfinder Society as a start of a model for your suggestion about getting a consumable at the start of the adventure.
There can be a basic item, like potion available to anyone, but being associated with certain schools might open up the choice to pick a more specific type of consumable.
The way Pathfinder Society has it, you get the consumable at the beginning of the adventure, but if you don't use it you turn it back in, so there isn't an incentive not to use it and try to horde it.
Take a look at Pathfinder Provisions
More academic factions could offer all sorts of scrolls or such. More martial factions potentially offer weapon blanches. You could potentially find talismans that might make sense to be tied to various factions.
I would even suggest that you could consider having something like a spellheart be potentially available at some level. The Wayfinder is a symbol of the Pathfinder Society and is a little reminiscent of SpellHearts. So you could consider having each faction have a different distinct one available to its more established members. Wayfinder access reference In Pathfinder Society, I don't believe they are free, but you gain access to them (so you can pay for one to get one, if you find it useful) They are somewhat customizable since they can give you safer access to an effect from any one Aeon stone you get to put in it.
Actually a lot of these are great ideas. I should expand and iterate on my list of consumables, because things like weapon blanches/oils and stuff are great ideas. Also talismans is very fitting, and fulus too, I think.
Also the spellhearts, like each class could maybe get a type, and a color, which is very anime-inspired haha.
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I kind of created a curated list of archetypes from the available "Classes" offered by the Academy. Any thoughts or revisions?
I'll reiterate that you should probably cut the multiclass archetypes, they're too broad and unfocused and give too many options which is tricky given you're doing a new setting and everything. Cognitive load high. Are you only granting the dedication and nothing else? That's an... interesting choice.
Additional Lore: Undead is a skill feat and stands out awkwardly, especially as many other dedications grant skills
'Free consumables at start of day' are just alchemy/free crafting benefits, in general, so the archetypes for those classes offer them by default. If you want to offer mission specific gear you can - just be warned players will absolutely forget to use them. Those probably should be tied to standing in general; the people who need them most are those who didn't go into alchemy or field survival!
I think, if I was to give floating benefits to each of the classes, I would go with:
1 free research roll that doesn't take time of a relevant subject (for Research, all subjects are relevant), identification of relevant item, curse/disease removal, retraining in 1 day instead of the usual time so long as it's a relevant class, crafting at faster speed (still need to spend the money). Most of these are meant to save time, or rather bundle up downtime tasks with attending classes.
Well, I was granting the dedication and all feats associated with it, all the way up. So your suggestion is that I should just whole-sale cut out like Sorcerer Dedication/etc. No multiclasses, only pure dedications?
The additional lores (I listed a few) would be free and not take up a slot or anything. They would just be bonus feats given.
1 free research roll that doesn't take time of a relevant subject (for Research, all subjects are relevant), identification of relevant item, curse/disease removal, retraining in 1 day instead of the usual time so long as it's a relevant class, crafting at faster speed (still need to spend the money). Most of these are meant to save time, or rather bundle up downtime tasks with attending classes.
By this do you mean instead of my free benefits of consumables/fulus/etc?
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So your suggestion is that I should just whole-sale cut out like Sorcerer Dedication/etc. No multiclasses, only pure dedications?
Yeah; that cuts out a lot of the choice paralysis.
The additional lores (I listed a few) would be free and not take up a slot or anything. They would just be bonus feats given.
I should point out that Spirit Lore is currently the only one being offered; I think in that case each lesson could have one (even if some are worth less than others).
By this do you mean instead of my free benefits of consumables/fulus/etc?Right; because those archetypes offered by those classes already do free items, the value of even more free items drops.
Assuming you do classes as downtime rolls between missions, it'd be something like: crit success, advance your class two levels to the max of your level and get two benefits, success, advance one level and get one benefit, fail, get one benefit (so you didn't waste the downtime).
Well, one full advance per class might be too much. You'd have to math out how many classes you expect each C to do between each level.
Oh, sorry. The class spirit lore offers the following benefits, which I did codify properly:
Additional Lore: Undead or Additional Lore: Necromancy or Additional Lore: Diabolic or Additional Lore: Demonology
Which are lores I think I made up to cover devils and Demons, and probably diabolic or demonology covers daemons? I still haven't figure out how to handle all the different categories of fiends, i.e. general fiends, devils, demons, daemons and the other few categories like the Rakshasa family of fiends.
As well as a choice of: Campfire Chronicler Dedication or Folklorist Dedication, or Linguist Dedication, or Loremaster Dedication.
Although it could be argued Linguist may fit better into research, or maybe both? Cross-discipline, for reading ancient texts written in weird demonic languages, OR being able to talk to such fiends for information (assuming anything they tell you is true).
I guess a lot of these are based on vibes/flavor and sort of supporting the idea of being a demon/undead hunter and aren't giga-powerful. Like having Additional Lore: Demonology to specialize in precisely just demons and knowing everything about them, and Dedication Linguist doesn't combine for some min/maxed super optimized char, probably, but it is very flavorful and cool. To me.
But, you are right. I need to figure out how to codify all of this, like how many classes can a character take, I was thinking maybe 2? And focus down that path the character's "career" and going deep, but of course if they want to mix and match, like they only want 3 feats out of a dedication and want another in a different class they can swap tracks, kind of thing.
Maybe I am biting off more than I can chew as a new DM haha, I was spitballing broad ideas but getting into the technical nitty gritty is actually harder than I first thought. This was very much a like manic brain dump of ideas and actually combing through the broad overview and drilling down into real subsystem etc is kind of challenging in its own right.
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I think that so long as this is the only thing you are doing for the players it can be fine.
I once again recommend the 1st Strength of Thousands book for their study system. The way I'd handle it is that each 'class' has a twenty level track, every even level is 'you get an archetype slot for this class's archetype feat' (which they can put any of the archetypes in) and every odd level is something else - getting additional lore for the 1st level, getting additional ancestry feat for the 3rd, maybe some kind of bonus to research rolls or rituals or something for the 5th. SoT recommends that you can have one class that is capped at your current level and one capped at half your level rounded down. I think giving a switch option is good.
It sounds like I just need to buy that adventure path. Maybe i should just run that instead of my own setting to start haha.