Alternate method for wizards acquiring spells


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hello all,

I started with AD&D over forty years ago, so our group was used to wizards having to roll randomly to determine new spells acquired when going up a level. I do not want to go back to that for my next Pathfinder game that I will be running, but I also do not want to give the wizard two spells of his choice as in the Pathfinder rules.

I was thinking that either the school can be rolled randomly with choice of spell within that school; or the school can be chosen with the spell being rolled randomly, with a possibility of rolling more than one spell and then having a choice.

Please keep in mind that this would not bother the player of the wizard, as we played together back then and this is similar to how spells are acquired in the Dolmenwood game that he runs now. Also, spell books from defeated wizards will not be uncommon in the campaign (Mummy’s Mask adventure path).

Does anyone have any suggestions about how I can blend randomness with player choice?


Instead of having random spells why not use a spellcraft check. Allow the player to choose the spell but require them to make a spellcraft check to gain the spell. If they fail the check they have to choose a different spell and make a spellcraft check to learn that spell. Keep repeating the process until they gain the number of spells they are entitled to.

If the character is a specialist, you could require that at least on spell has to be from the characters school.

The spells gained for going up a level are supposed to represent spells the wizard researches during down time. So, gaining completely random spells when going up a level does not really make sense.


If the player knows what he wants to learn, make him do a quest to find it. Could be trivial or substantial. You can plot that as far forward as you like, and he can otherwise manage with some random or plot-relevant spells in the meantime.

As (by RAW) the PC could simply buy a scroll of what he wants, the same should apply to buying magic items, though it depends how much time you and your players want to spend doing what amounts to shopping.


Let's state the RAW basics
Lvl 1 Start with ZERO:all but Opps'd(≈22 of 25+), FRST:3 +INT(≈7 of 225+).
Lvl 2 gain FRST:2.
Lvl 3 gain SCND:2. A PC can choose a lower SplLvl but that is not practical.
Lvl 4 gain SCND:2.
Lvl 5 gain THRD:2.
etc... Spell Level(SplLvl), Int bonus(INT).
That's the baseline or what you get for Free. Then the Wizard Tax starts at (15×SplLvl^2 {NPC access & attempt learn & scribe} +0.15×SplLvl {book}) gp with a Splcrft 10 +SplLvl (-2 if Spclzd Sch) Chk with a week retry time. Read Magic makes the first check hard to fail with a day retry thus it is perfunctory and I'm ignoring it (it is there for the UMD users).
Most flexible Wizard builds will want about (2 +4×(10 -SplLvl)) spells per SplLvl.
Feat: Cypher Script can basically halve the Wizard Tax.

Again - Stop with learning from Scrolls! That is an act of desperation. Read the CRB/PHB and get up to speed (as of 20+ yrs ago).

= = =
Homebrew/Campaign

#1 stick to PFS legal spells adding in what you think will work.

Practicality - it is worth it? Most spells in a standard game are freely available IF the wizard can pay the Tax AND keep Splcrft at 80% Ranks. Not only do you need to develop a Rule but then you have to Monitor it. IMO it's not worth it as you have other means via the Campaign.

The GM through encounters controls captured spellbooks AND what NPCs have to offer. Captured spellbooks alleviate 1/3 of the Tax by bypassing NPC access cost. This IS your Randomness.
Within an AP - the spellbooks & found spell notes or scrolls are going to be themed.

Some GMs hate some spells and Ban them or tinker with the existing descriptions. Again, more Balance or Randomness depending on your viewpoint.

You can introduce spells, scrolls, and such through non-spellbooks, religious tomes, ancient mystical carvings... for the luddites & misers - a few pages from a spellbook are worth far less than a scroll of said spell.

In a homebrew fashion you can;
• change the free spells gained each level to 1d4+INT random spells with 2 coming from the specialized school.
• when a caster identifies a casting via Splcrft, he can take notes as a std actn within INT rnds and then later attempt to learn the spell at Splcrft (20 +2×SplLvl). obviously it needs to be on your spell list.


PJSlavner wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions about how I can blend randomness with player choice?

I think the others have covered most of it. It's obviously really tough sometimes to combine choice with randomness. But, since this seems to be your question. About the only way would be to make the player pick one (or two or however many they learn that level), then you pick an equal number of ones (either randomly or because you suspect they might be useful in the future, like a deity granting an cleric a spell the GM knows they might need in the morning instead of a spell they asked for), or maybe two each.

Then the players rolls randomly. You can even set the odds, like it doesn't have to be 50-50 between them, you can say the player has a 75% chance to learn the spell they wanted.

Obviously there's tons of ways to do it, but that's what falls between the 'Player choose exactly' and 'Completely random from all spells of that level (or lower, potentially).'


I assume you also want to remove the rules that you can simply buy spells in the local market


Besides nostalgia what is the purpose of doing this? As prepared spell casters wizards have to choose what and how many of each spell they cast per day. A sorcerer has less spell to choose from but can spam out what spells they know. A bad selection for a wizard can render the character useless for that day. Having a completely random selection of spells makes that more likely. Having the perfect selection of spells per day is nearly impossible unless the GM is telling the players exactly what to expect. In reality most of the time the wizard ends up with some useless spells. This has the potential to reduce the effectiveness of the class too much.


Pathfinder is kind of an optimization hungry system, so random class feature selection probably isn’t as functional as it might be in other systems. Also, there’s a ton of content that is just non-viable; I think there are over 3000 wizard spells? That seems pike a lot of work to randomly roll from.

That said, there are some functional staple shortlists that could be used, e.g., pathfinder Iconic Wizard spellbool. Maybe there are some specialist spellbooks you could look at as well.


LOL...
 If you assume a Wizard finds a random spell, it then becomes his choice to buy it and try to learn & scribe it paying the Wiz Tax in the process. You'll get 80% "no thanks" as he'll try again next day or week. Yes - there are that many suboptimal to poor spells out there.
 IF you force spells into a Wiz Spellbook and make him roll and pay for it - well, you will experience rage quitting. Instead if you just force it into his book replacing a gained spell of choice, you will get grumbling at best or rage quitting in a low magic game. That is exactly why I suggested the option for 1d4+INT per level to assuage that issue.
 Useless spells in a spellbook are often ignored and not memorized/prepared. If free I'd cut those pages out and sell them at half value.

Azothath wrote:
Most flexible Wizard builds will want about (2 +4×(10 -SplLvl)) spells per SplLvl.

Yep. Figure a minimum of about 20 to 8 with increasing SplLvl. Just ignore people that play wizards with minimal spells as they are in a low magic campaign, masochistic, or [redacted].

The main source of spells is 'professional' NPCs (not some random waffle vendor or a counter display of "treasure maps & useful spells"). In Home Games that means negotiation (Diplo, Craft, Prof Skl Chks). PCs with Cha penalties will not fare well or pay extra. This aspect is ignored in campaigns like PFS.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

You could use a parallel method to the "old school" 1st Ed AD&D Unearthed Arcana for a character's initial set of spells in their spellbook (or familiar):
1) PF1e automatically includes all 0-level cantrips (other than those in prohibited schools [if any]);
2) for the three "baseline" 1st-level spells, you can roll randomly for one offensive spell, one defensive spell, and one utility spell (you can either create the lists for each category to remove spells from the prohibited schools or re-roll any results that indicate a spell from a prohibited school);
3) for the additional starting spells based on the character's Int bonus, you can probably allow the player to choose* those from "common" spells (essentially a curated list).

Other casters, like magi, with a spellbook or a familiar can just tweak the above.

*- wizards probably should be allowed a larger list to choose from, while a witch should probably have a smaller list based on their patron

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