Some thoughts around focus spell scaling


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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This is a topic of discussion that's been on my mind for a little while, and I thought I'd share some of what I've been thinking about in case others have also been looking into the same topic.

The basic subject here is the notion of scaling, and specifically what causes certain focus spells to remain more relevant than others over time. The Druid is known for having some very strong focus spells that are on-par with slot spells found at the same ranks, for instance, yet classes like the Bard or Animist tend to have their own focus spells (or composition cantrips, in the Bard's case) talked about more often. On the flipside, the Wizard is also known for having focus spells that are generally considered not that helpful for the most part, and I think it ultimately ties into the same factors:

  • 1. Some focus spells complement slot spells, while others act as substitutes.
  • 2. Complementary focus spells tend to start a bit weaker than substitute focus spells, but scale a lot better.
  • 3. Choosing whether to implement a focus spell as a complement or a substitute has a significant impact on the stability and scaling of casters.

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    Point #1 I think boils down to a pretty simple notion: if your focus spell requires fewer than two actions to cast, it complements slot spellcasting, otherwise it acts as a substitute. Single-action or reaction spells can be cast alongside two-action spells, whereas if you need two or more actions to cast your focus spell, casting that is generally going to lock you out of using a slot spell for your turn, barring exceptions like single-action heals or force barrages. Focus spells with a low action cost thus tend to give their casters an extra option for their third action or reaction, the latter of which can be especially valuable given how casters tend to have fewer reaction options than most martial classes.

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    Where this gets interesting, in my opinion, is how this influences Point #2: complementary focus spells will often give you powerful third actions or reactions, but will also let you use spell slots on the same turn. Classes with complementary focus spells like the Animist, Sorcerer, or Wizard will thus be pushed to dip into their spell slots to make the most of their turn, whereas others like the Bard or Witch will want to make use of other strong actions in their kit to conserve more limited daily resources. Meanwhile, classes whose focus spells are mostly substitutes, like the Druid or Psychic, can rely on those instead of their spell slots, and thus have less pressure to expend them. Substitute focus spells thus tend to make life easier for casters at early levels when their spell slots are limited, whereas complementary focus spells don't entirely take off the pressure to put those limited resources to use.

    The flipside to this, however, is how all of this scales: spellcasters gain more spell slots as they level up, to the point where most eventually get more spells than they can expend in a single adventuring day. Not only that, but higher-rank spells are generally more powerful than lower-rank spells heightened to that same rank, so the top grade of casters' power output tends to be better than linear as well. This means there's generally less pressure to rely on resourceless substitutes, because casters are less likely to run out of strong options, but it also means that the power gap between substitute focus spells and slot spells widens as casters access higher-rank spells. Complementary focus spells, by contrast, don't compete with those slot spells, and so don't fall off in the same way: rather, because they compete with other third actions and reactions that generally don't scale in quite the same way, they tend to remain relevant at all levels.

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    Point #3 is how this applies to specific caster classes: specifically, because of how these two different kinds of focus spells scale differently, complementary focus spells tend to work well as features that are expected to remain relevant on a caster at all times, whereas substitute focus spells generally work better as a boost to a caster's power at early levels, without being expected to carry them to the game's highest levels unless they get higher-rank options.

    There are, in my opinion, many instances where this works quite well: the Bard's compositions are famously useful at all levels, and because they don't get in the way of spellcasting, a Bard can buff their team or debuff the enemy with a composition while still leveraging the full power of the occult spell list. The Druid's strong order spells are a major reason why they're such a powerhouse at early levels, because they can deal tremendous damage with tempest surge while others would have to use a spell slot to deal similar damage with a thunderstrike. Additionally, Shield Block and generally good starting combat capabilities give the Druid good uses for their third action and reaction at early levels, meaning they can feel strong even if they're out of spell slots or haven't prepared the right spells for the occasion.

    Where I think this goes slightly awry is when complementary focus spells are applied to a class that either starts off weak or already scales to a high power level, or when a caster doesn't scale as well and only has substitute focus spells: the Wizard, for instance, deals with a lot of limitations at early levels, yet isn't really supported by their weaker focus spells. They do, however, scale really well thanks to their prepared arcane spellcasting and arcane thesis (if you pick the right one), so by the time those single-action spells start complementing their spell output better, the class doesn't really need those to do well. For all their early-game strength, the Druid ends up losing a lot of their unique benefits at higher levels, and although their focus spells keep pace with slot spells of similar ranks, they still fall off compared to higher-rank spells, so the class ends up with very few relevant class features at a time when they'd need those the most.

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    All of which is to say: if your focus spell takes two or three actions to cast, it's going to act as a replacement for slot spells while it remains relevant, and so is particularly useful for boosting spellcasters at early levels and easing their early resource constraints. If your focus spell takes fewer actions to cast, it's going to complement your slot spells, which means your class will need extra resources or more things to do at early level to not feel too limited, but also means your focus spell will likely stay relevant even at high level when you get more and better slot spells.

    With this, my opinion is that complementary focus spells work well on classes that have enough going for them at 1st level to put their remaining actions to good use, and will want a feature that stays relevant at higher levels. Meanwhile, substitute focus spells work well on classes that need an early-level boost and either scale well enough to not need focus spells that are as relatively strong, or get more of those at higher levels in order to keep that kind of boost relevant. When this works well, you get classes like the Bard or early-level Druid that play really smoothly and are especially consistent in how good they can feel to play. When this works less well, you get cases like the Wizard, who needs an early-level boost but doesn't really get one with their focus spells, or the late-level Druid, whose focus spells eventually fall off in the same way as their initial boost to their AC and melee fighting ability.


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    I'd never really thought about this before, but it checks out. Looking at my Oracle: Spray of Stars and Intersteller Void were great when I got them. I don't really use them much at level 19.

    I also picked up Ancestral Memories from Sorcerer, though, and I use that frequently, precisely because it compliments high-rank spells instead of preventing me from using them.

    Actually do still get use out of Moonlight Bridge, because it's both handy to create a path and a pseudo-wall. And Access Lore which I also picked up, because it's one of the best abilities in the game at "I really need to know a piece of information about some specific subject right now."

    (Realizing now that I have 5 focus spells... I may be a focus spell junkie lol.)


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    "I also picked up Ancestral Memories from Sorcerer, though, and I use that frequently, precisely because it compliments high-rank spells instead of preventing me from using them."

    Ancestral memories is one of the only things in the game that gives casters the no-fuss 1-3 point swing on spells for one action in the same vein as martials moving to flank for strikes. Still boggles the mind that that it showed up in pc2 as a solo sorc feat.....as opposed to items for bonuses to spell saves/spell attacks that all casters could get. Seriously, keep the action buffer on the items, just make it something any caster could get.......

    Anyway, to contribute to the conversation, I prefer focus spells that replace casting a spell (even if it's slightly weaker) bc I prefer using focus points as a tool for caster sustain over the adventuring day over a nova tool. If it's interesting, moderately impactful, and thematic I'm happy to use it and conserve spell slots for the next turn. Even if it doesn't scale up as effectively as a top rank spell it's still a rank -2 level worth of magical effect that you didn't have to spend resources on. In my onion, I rank a 6d10 fireball I can cast forever over a 10d10 fireball I can cast 3 times.


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    WWHsmackdown wrote:


    Anyway, to contribute to the conversation, I prefer focus spells that replace casting a spell (even if it's slightly weaker) bc I prefer using focus points as a tool for caster sustain over the adventuring day over a nova tool. If it's interesting, moderately impactful, and thematic I'm happy to use it and conserve spell slots for the next turn. Even if it doesn't scale up as effectively as a top rank spell it's still a rank -2 level worth of magical effect that you didn't have to spend resources on. In my onion, I rank a 6d10 fireball I can cast forever over a 10d10 fireball I can cast 3 times.

    This very much depends on your level and class. At lower levels what you describe is very much the case.

    However, at some point the 4 slot casters (and especially the Sorceror for triggering blood magic) will have enough juice to start valuing the good 1 action or reaction focus spells more. The 2 action focus spells would still be useful to have, just less useful.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    How to min/max your focus spells is definitely a PF2 minigame that some players go all in on and others can almost ignore. I kind of like that they manage to thread this needle of “can be character defining, can be ignored.” I tend toward preferring builds where focus spells are used mostly in utility or as a back up combat option. I also think it is perfectly fine for characters to grow out of focus spells and either retrain the feats that give them or if they are baked in, for later better options to supplant them. Big shout out to the wizard focus spell, rune of observation: take a spell with a 1 minute casting time, make it 1 action and its duration 1 hour instead of 10 minutes? This is a focus spell much better than the spell slot spell it replaced.

    Another difficult complexity to add to the evaluation is whether the class already has one action activities it wants to be doing. Like bard has a ton of one action free abilities that don’t use focus points. They pretty much had to have free action focus spells and reactions because one or 2 action costs are kinda the same for them.

    Sovereign Court

    Interesting analysis. My favorite focus spells are the dragon sorcerer's. I've still used the rank 3 breath weapon spell into the late (14-17) levels because it was solidly scaling damage, with a good damage type and adequate area. But the rank 1 claws do become more niche over time. So I think that supports the original theory.

    Grand Lodge

    Tridus wrote:

    I'd never really thought about this before, but it checks out. Looking at my Oracle: Spray of Stars and Intersteller Void were great when I got them. I don't really use them much at level 19.

    I also picked up Ancestral Memories from Sorcerer, though, and I use that frequently, precisely because it compliments high-rank spells instead of preventing me from using them.

    Actually do still get use out of Moonlight Bridge, because it's both handy to create a path and a pseudo-wall. And Access Lore which I also picked up, because it's one of the best abilities in the game at "I really need to know a piece of information about some specific subject right now."

    (Realizing now that I have 5 focus spells... I may be a focus spell junkie lol.)

    I thought you were on the patch.;-)


    The quality of the focus spells is all over the place. There isn't a lot of consistency. Some are very good and some not so much.

    Focus spells synergize with certain abilities like picking up a great damage focus spell to use with a magus or to complement a spell or for utility use.

    Untamed Form has tremendous utility as well as combat ability. I used it across levels. It scales well enough with feats.

    The harrow sorcerer has some decent support focus spells. I used them quite often ever at higher levels.

    Elemental toss is supplemental damage. They have a decent blast focus spell for weaker fights when you to sit on your big dog spells. And a mobility focused spell.

    I think when looking at focus spells, they should support your build's goals. Some are high quality, but most are pretty meh.

    Sovereign Court

    I think spells like tempest surge stat good, even though at later levels you also get slotted spells that do the same damage but to a bigger area. Because it's still level-appropriate damage and you will very often fight just a few creatures, so single-target focus spells don't become irrelevant. It's close to having a free top-rank spell slot every combat. But the key here is the good scaling on the spell.

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