Whether you like post necromancy or not, it's not against the rules if clarification could be helpful.
If you'd still like to discuss this matter in a civil and healthy way, make a new thread please!
Thank you, Maya, for clarifying to others that my initial posting on the only thread on the forums that discusses this rules debate was not against the rules.
My posts (that presented sound logical reasons why the Summoner Dedication feat includes the Share Senses action and the ability to telepathically communicate with their eidolon) are no longer on the original thread; this is why I created this new thread (which Maya suggested doing).
In addition to my posts that were removed, the original post by Tridus makes an excellent case for why the dedication feat includes giving the character the the Share Senses action and the ability to telepathically communicate with their eidolon.
If a multi-class dedication feat gives you a specific feature of a class, but does not include everything that a non-multi-class character of the same class gains from the feature, the multi-class dedication feat will explicitly state which features are not gained with the multi-class dedication feat.
Paizo has used such clear wording in their multi-class dedications feats from the very first book that has classes in it, the PF2E Core Rulebook, to the most recent rulebook that contains classes, which the Commander Dedication feat uses.
Paizo used such clear wording for nine of the sixteen classes that were already out before the Summoner class and Summoner Dedication feat, that are in the Secrets of Magic rulebook.
Paizo has continued to use such clear wording for nine of the multi-class dedication feats for classes that were introduced after the Summoner class was.
Nine of the sixteen multi-class dedication feats that came out before the Summoner class that grants a class feature but does not grant the entire benefits of the granted class feature that a non-multi-class character of the class gains.
Barbarian Dedication "Choose an instinct as you would if you were a barbarian. You have that instinct for all purposes, but you don’t gain any of the other abilities it grants. If that instinct has anathema, you’re bound by them."
The barbarian dedication feat uses the very clear wording of "you don't gain any other ability it grants", referring to the class feature, Instinct, the player chooses when taking the dedication feat. This is an example of Paizo making it specifically clear that you gain the type-up of the Instinct class feature you chose from the barbarian class, but do not gain any of the actual abilities that non-multi-classed barbarians gain for having that instinct (aside the anathema).
Bard Dedication feat: "Choose a muse as you would if you were a bard. You can take that muse’s feats, but you don’t gain the starting feat, spell or any other abilities the choice of muse grants, with the exception of being able to take feats that require having the chosen muse."
The bard dedication feat specifically states, like the barbarian dedication class, that you choose a muse, but do not gain the abilities for having that muse that non-multi-classed bards have for having that muse. This wording does suggest that other multi-class dedication feats have the ability to take feats that require the chosen class feature option to take certain feats, such as a multi-classed barbarian who chose the dragon instinct being able to take the Draconic Arrogance barbarian feat.
Champion Dedication feat: "Choose a cause as you would if you were a champion, with the same options a champion must abide by. You gain its edicts and anathema but don’t gain the other abilities."
The champion dedication feat makes it quite clear that you gain the edicts and anathema for the chosen cause and that the character nothing else the cause grants a non-multi-class champion.
Cleric Dedication feat: "Choose a deity as you would if you were a cleric. You become bound by that deity’s anathema and can receive that deity’s divine sanctification. You become trained in Religion and your deity’s associated skill; for each of these skills in which you were already trained, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You don’t gain any other abilities from your choice of deity."
The wording in the cleric dedication feat clearly states you gain training in two skills and are bound by the edicts and anathem, and that you do not gain any of the other abilities for the chosen deity that a non-multi-classed cleric gains for choosing the same deity.
Druid Dedication feat: "Choose a druidic order. You become a member of that order and are also bound by its specific anathema, allowing you to take the order’s feats. You become trained in Nature and your order’s associated skill; for each of these skills in which you were already trained, you become trained in a skill of your choice. You don’t gain any other abilities from your choice of order."
The wording of the druid dedication feat clearly states that the multi-class druid gains the edicts and anathema of the chosen order and trained proficiency in two skills, but none of the additional benefits a non-multi-classed druid gains for choosing the same order.
Sorcerer Dedication feat: "Choose a bloodline. You become trained in the bloodline’s two skills; for each of these skills in which you were already trained, you become trained in a skill of your choice.
You cast spells like a sorcerer. You gain access to the Cast a Spell activity. You gain a spell repertoire with two common cantrips from the spell list associated with your bloodline, from the spells granted by your bloodline, or any other cantrips of that tradition you learn or discover. You’re trained in the spell attack modifier and spell DC statistics. Your key spellcasting attribute for sorcerer archetype spells is Charisma, and they are sorcerer spells of your bloodline’s tradition. You don’t gain any other abilities from your choice of bloodline."
The wording of the sorcerer dedication feat clearly states you do not gain any other abilities from the chosen bloodline that was not already stated in the dedication feat that is granted by the bloodline chosen.
Wizard Dedication feat: "Select a school; you don’t gain any abilities from your choice of school, but qualify for feats as a member."
The wizard dedication feat clearly states that none of the abilities of the chosen school gives a non-multi-classed wizard who chooses the same school. The Remaster change was replacing 'choose an arcane school' with 'choose a school'.
As can be seen so far, Paizo has used the words "you don't gain any other abilities from your choice of (class feature dedication feat grants)" or the words "but you don’t gain any of the other abilities it grants" for class features that a multi-class dedication feat gives the character. In the very first rule book that contains character classes, Paizo used such wording for 7 of the 12 multic-class feats. The reason they did not use the wording for the other five classes from the Core Rulebook (alchemist, fighter, monk, ranger, rogue) is because:
The alchemist dedication feat grants the Quick Alchemy class feature fully. The only difference is the amount of versatile vials in a day they can create compared to a non-multi-classed alchemist.
The fighter dedication feat does not grant a class feature.
The monk dedication feat does not grant a class feature.
The ranger dedication feat grants the Hunt Prey action, without reducing its effectiveness for the character being a multi-classed ranger instead of a non-multi-classed ranger.
The rogue dedication feat grants the Surprise Attack class feature, without reducing its effectiveness for the character being a mult-classed rogue instead of a non-multi-classed rogue.
Swashbuckler Dedication feat: "Choose a swashbuckler's style. You gain the panache and stylish combatant class features, and you apply the bravado trait to Tumble Through and any actions indicated in your swashbuckler style, allowing you to gain panache. You become trained in Acrobatics or the skill associated with your style. If you were already trained in both skills, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You also become trained in swashbuckler class DC. You don't gain any other effects of your chosen style."
Witch Dedication feat: "Choose a patron; you gain a familiar with two common cantrips of your choice from your chosen patron's tradition, but aside from the tradition, you don't gain any other effects the patron would usually grant. Your familiar gains the normal number of abilities for a familiar instead of those a witch familiar normally gets."
Commander Dedication feat: "You gain a commander's banner that grants you a 30-foot aura for the purposes of using your tactics, but the banner does not grant the commander's banner bonus to Will saves and DCs against fear effects."
Gunslinger Dedication feat: "Choose a gunslinger way. You become trained in your way's associated skill; if you were already trained in this skill, you become trained in a skill of your choice. You don't gain any other abilities from your choice of way."
Inventor Dedication feat: "Choose an innovation. You gain that innovation, though you don't gain any other abilities that modify or use that innovation, such as modifications or Explode."
Kineticist Dedication feat: "You gain a kinetic aura and the Channel Elements action, though you don't get to use an Elemental Blast or stance impulse when you take that action." & "Your Elemental Blast does not automatically gain additional damage dice every four levels, instead requiring you to take the Improved Elemental Blast feat."
Psychic Dedication feat: "Choose a conscious mind. You gain a spell repertoire with one standard psi cantrip of your choice from your conscious mind, which you cast as a psi cantrip. You gain the normal benefits for this psi cantrip, but not any other benefits from the conscious mind."
Thaumaturge Dedication feat: "Choose an implement; you can use it to Glimpse Vulnerability, but don't gain its benefits."
For 15 of the 27 current classes, all that have multi-class dedication feats, which grant a class feature which does not grant the full benefits of the granted class feature taht non-multi-classed characters gain from the same class feature, Paizo has used the wording" but you don’t gain any of the other abilities it grants" or a customized version of that wording to make it clear the granted class feature does not grant all the benefits that a non-multi-classed character of the same class gains from the class feature.
To clarify, of the other 12 multi-class dedication feats that do not use the 'text template' Paizo has used from the beginning to present for wording multi-class dedication feats, the Summoner class is the only one of those 12 classes that gains a class feature that does not grant the entirety of the class feature.
So the question is, "Why did Paizo not use such a clear 'text template' for the Summoner Dedication feat if Paizo's intent was for the dedication feat to not grant multi-classed summoners the Share Senses action and the ability to telepathically communicate with their eidolons?"
If Paizo's intent with the Summoner Dedication feat was that multi-class summoners do not gain the Share Senses action nor the ability to telepathically communicate with their eidolons, Paizo could have used the 'text template' they use to make the following wording, "You gain the eidolon class feature (page 52). You gain the Manifest Eidolon activity, but do not gain any other benefits of the class eidolon class feature. You cannot use or gain tandem actions. As Act Together has the tandem trait, you cannot use Act Together." Such a editing of the 'text template' Paizo uses (since the Core Rulbeook of PF2E to the present day) would have made it clear that multi-classed summoners do not gain the Share Senses action nor the ability to telepathically communicate with their eidolons. This use of editing their 'text template' has been in their 'arsenal' for all the rulebooks that contain character classes (and their relevant multi-class dedication feats) from the start of Pathfinder Second Edition to the current (Patherfinder Remaster). It is a very useful and 'clear and concise' 'text template' that seems weird that Paizo did not use it for the Summoner Dedication feat, if they never intended for multi-classed summoners to gain the Share Senses action and the ability to telepathically communicate with their eidolons.
Does anyone know if any of the PF2E liveplay streams that Paizo has on this website, that includes members of the Paizo team who play/run the campaigns that have had a campaign that includes one of the players playing as a multi-classed summoner?
The probability is probably higher than lower that at least one of the Paizo Team members have played in a campaign that includes a multi-classed summoner, and if that has occured, it would mean that if any of the Paizo Team members interpreted the wording of the Summoner Dedication feat was with the intention that multi-classed summoners do not gain the Share Senses action or ability to telepathically communicate with their eidolons, the Paizo Team probably would have addressed that particular 'rules deciphering variance amongst players' in the FAQ and/or errata at some point in the past (nearly full) five years since Secrets of Magic was first released (on Sept 1, 2021).
If Paizo's intent was for multi-classed summoners to not gain the Share Senses action and the ability to telepathically communicate with their eidolons, then that means multi-classed summoners would have to verbally communicate (or visually communicate) with their eidolons. That means multi-classed summoners would have to shout out to their eidolons to coordinate with them (as they still share the same actions per turn economy and share the same pool of hit points). That would mean that if a multi-classed summoner is silence or thier eidolon is blinded/deafened, then they can not coordinate as well as a non-multi-classed summoner can with their eidolon (even if the non-multi-classed summoner and their eidolon are not using Act Together nor any tandem actions).
Some potential confusion regarding the Summoner Dedication feat could be because Archives of Nethys removes the page number reference (page 52) and the link that AoN has in the Summoner Dedication feat takes the user to the wrong section dealing with eidolons.
Page 52 of Secrets of Magic is where the summoner's eidolon class feature begins. Later in Secrets of Magic (page 58) is where the more detailed specifics of eidolons (including the different types of eidolons are detailed).
The link that AoN uses for eidolon takes you to what is detailed in Secrets of Magic that begin on page 58, not page 52 (which is the actual class feature the dedication feat grants the character).
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Drake intends just to discuss rules here,
I'll take your word for that.
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A logic problem that I see often is taking a specific rule, or a bunch of specific rules, creating a general rule from that, and then thinking that the created general rule actually exists or must be the only interpretation of the general rule that was intended.
We have the general rule that Specific Overrides General.
But if a general rule does not exist, we don't have a way of recreating it in a way that is going to be universally accepted. Any general rule that we create - no matter how well reasoned or how consistent with the specific items, abilities, and other such things - is not going to be definitive.
It becomes subjective interpretation to decide if a specific rule is:
* An override of the general rule that should exist.
* A reminder of the general rule that should exist.
So...
If a multi-class dedication feat gives you a specific feature of a class, but does not include everything that a non-multi-class character of the same class gains from the feature, the multi-class dedication feat will explicitly state which features are not gained with the multi-class dedication feat.
That looks like you are trying to construct a general rule from the evidence of specific instances. But do you see that actually printed anywhere in the general rules? Do you see that rule in the Archetype rules?
Because I don't. So if you do see that general rule printed somewhere, let me know.
For now, I am going to assume from the extensive amount of evidence and reasoning given to convincingly show that the general rule should exist and would say what you want it to say, that you also can't find that general rule for Archetypes granting class features to actually be printed anywhere.
Without that general rule, it is a matter of personal and subjective opinion to say either:
* The omission of the 'you don't gain any other abilities of your Eidolon class feature' clause in the dedication is significant and is an override of the general rule.
* The 'you don't gain any other features of your class feature' clause of the many classes that have that language is reminder text of the general rule and Summoner omitting that is not significant. Without that clause, Summoner still follows the general rule.
Alright, rewriting my post:
Hopefully this is just an oversight that will get clarified by the remaster.
I personally don't think it's intended that the summoner dedication is unable to use share senses or speak telepathically, and choose not to rule it that way while this ruling appears to be ambiguous.
Fear not, Maya, for I, Dr. Thaddeus Aspects, am always a paragon of civility.
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Way I read it, the Eidolon class feature grants the Summoner:
1. an eidolon with all attendant rules
2. the Manifest Eidolon action
3. the Act Together action
4. the Share Senses action.
And the Dedication feat explicitly gives you:
1. an eidolon with all attendant rules
2. the Manifest Eidolon action
And that's it.
Note that, way I read it, the telepathic communication at all times is still there since it is not part of the Share Senses action.
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I read it differently. To me, gaining the Share Senses action is part of the same paragraph as gaining the telepathic communication at all times ability. I would think you would either get both or neither - you wouldn't get one but not the other.
I'm kinda on the fence about whether they should get both or neither of those two options. Removing the telepathic communication wouldn't override the rules regarding sharing of actions from a couple paragraphs above that. Just because you don't share thoughts doesn't mean that you have to give commands to your Eidolon like they are a Minion.
But I am leaning more toward letting the character have both. The Summoner Archetype is nerf'd enough. I don't generally worry about a character with Summoner Archetype being too powerful in comparison to other characters.
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And while I might read things differently than The Raven Black, that doesn't mean that I think that The Raven Black is reading things wrong. Theirs is a valid reading. It just isn't the valid reading that I use.
I agree That Raven's reading isn't decisively wrong. I'd say as written it is mildly up in the air. Technically speaking, taking that argument to its conclusion leaves one to say the part where they share HP isn't conferred, but that takes an extreme as it leaves out any definition for their HP, so it seems obvious that is intended.
I have trouble making it work to have them literally share actions, without the bonding such that they have telepathic communication or communion between the two. Eidolons are supposed to share actions, not be commanded to use their actions. A slow on you or your eidolon effects your pooled actions. It doesn't reduce the number of actions you have to command your eidolon. That all said is my interpretation, but it seem the intended interpretation.
To me, in writing focus was on making sure they didn't get Act together, and then probably later focused on insuring they never bought anything that would grant them any form of Tandem action. I'm not sure there was a lot of focus on the thought about shared senses or telepathy. It think the finer details of the Multi-class dedications are a lower priority, and don't get as much attention.
I think we can even point at the Swashbuckler as an example of this. The original rework on it gave them the Panache ability that they could earn, and seemed to then literally strip away all point of having panache as an empty reward that to enable, you had to spend future feats to have panache earn you anything. This appeared to be because they reworked/organized the class abilities/features to be more organized, moving some of Panache into Stylish Combatant feature, but didn't check the dedication for any changes needed.
It think this happened because the ruleset was created for the class, and fell into to the class, but created rules elements similar to familiar/pets and animal/non-animal companions which frequently had other tie-ins. Perhaps if they'd put the Eidolon rules as a section, which the Summoner referred too, and then put extra features that the full classed summoner go in addition to base Eidolon, it would have been easier to make it clear what the baseline was going to be for the multiclass Eidolon.
Taking the stricter interpretation of Only top part of Eidolon class feature, other aspects don't apply can also be taken to mean that the subsection under Eidolon titled 'Gear and your Eidolon" and "Lost and Altered Actions" should not be applied either as they weren't included.
I think if I had someone ask for Summoner multiclass, I think I'd probably allow the telepathy and shared senses actions as part of it, because I think it wouldn't be unbalanced and I don't like the ramifications of saying it shouldn't be there.
If in a game with a player, and with a GM I knew well enough to be honest with, I'd lobby that at a minimum they should be allowed to keep the telepathy, because is seems obvious that even Multiclass Eidolons are supposed to share actions and MAP together, and that mostly makes sense if they have a more 'shared' consciousness that is more in line with Telepathy.
Honestly, the multiclass dedication isn't appealing enough to me to really inspire me to delve into it at the moment, so I can't imagine having to argue that point myself on my own behalf. I think for most examples of having an Eidolon, it makes more sense for them to be the major part of the story, not an add-on so it is harder for me to imagine a multi-class example I'd explore myself.
So no Raven isn't out of line, but I'd confess there are more ramifications from taking that point, that other changes they don't list would also legitimately fall within that interpretation. I'd not back that interpretation myself as a final choice, but I understand their logic.
Honest it is probably be worthy of FAQ/errata, although maybe it has been resolved in the Impossible Magic, so it is likely better to wait for that at this point. I'm sure it is too late for anything to change in Impossible Magic, if that text hasn't been reworked in the new book, or the reworked text still has the same of similar ambiguity.
I thought we had stopped with this, but anyway...
Summoner Dedication says you get the Eidolon block on page 58. That block has a sentence that says you get Share Senses. After that, it explains the action Shared Senses.
The Dedication doesn't say you don't get that, so the text that says you get it is what applies. If that text doesn't apply, logically nothing after it in the same block applies either and that creates a bunch of problems because there's actually pretty important text down there.
Doing anything else amounts to cherry picking out a sentence in the middle and saying "you don't get this because the dedication doesn't say you get it, but you do get text farther down in the same block of text that the dedication also doesn't say you get because reasons." It doesn't make any sense and doesn't hold up if you just read what the book is actually saying.
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This argument is giving me the same vibes as those who argued against witch dedication familiars having the Undying feature*,
Heh. I was thinking the same thing.
That one does cause a huge balance problem if interpreted in one of the ways. But the logic is very similar.
Which is the whole problem. It's extremely inconsistent to say that you don't get something because the Dedication doesn't say you get it, but you do get a bunch of other stuff the Dedication doesn't say you get, because reasons.
At the end of the day, there is a sentence in the Eidolon text that says you get it, whcih is how the Eidolon text gives you everything else. Nothing in the Dedication invalidates that sentence, so this amounts to "I don't think you should have it and am coming up with a justification for that position, even though if we apply the same justification anywhere else it breaks things so we won't do that".
RAW that is absolutely not what the text says at all.