Alright, so I recently started reading the Dungeon Crawler Carl series and I started to think about what an interpretation of Carl in PF2 would look like and how to make it reasonably good.
The main things I feel like the character needs to do are:
1) Punch things good
2) Throw bombs (likely via the Alchemist dedication)
There are other things that might be nice to haves, but to me those are the two core items I'd like to focus on.
For this theoretical character, lets assume free archetype rules are in play.
My initial thought for the character was to play as a Monk, using Mountain Stance early on. While book Carl definitely has a good dex and is very mobile, it's hard to make a character that can do that in PF2 along with being able to grab alchemist dedication.
So my thought was to keep dex at +0 modifier. I was planning to use the Time Traveler background to vaguely represent being isekai'd.
Str +4, Con +2, Wis +1, Dex, +0, Int +2, Cha +0.
Use the Versatile Human heritage to pick up fleet to counteract the penalty from Mountain Stance.
At level 2 I would pick up Alchemist dedication via free archetype.
How else would you all go about building a representation of Carl, mind you I'm focusing on the punching and the bombing.
Also, I'm not trying to do anything to represent Carls' companion(s). So don't worry about Donut.
Isn't this easier to build as a thief rogue? They get sneak attack to unarmed now or you could just use gauntlets, etc.
0/4/2/2/1/0 attributes. Alchemist at 2, maybe eventually martial artist or spirit warrior to supplement the unarmed stuff. I dropped the series after book 2 so idk what else he eventually gets or what you can justify.
Isn't this easier to build as a thief rogue? They get sneak attack to unarmed now or you could just use gauntlets, etc.
0/4/2/2/1/0 attributes. Alchemist at 2, maybe eventually martial artist or spirit warrior to supplement the unarmed stuff. I dropped the series after book 2 so idk what else he eventually gets or what you can justify.
How does thief rogue accomplish the goal?
The goal is punching and bombs.
I suppose if you're just looking at it and saying "doing an unarmed attack that does good damage" then yes, maybe a thief rogue does check that box.
I suppose that's not a completely invalid approach.
The real problem is that either the monk solution or rogue solution ignores either dex or strength, and the character has a good deal of both (although focuses more on strength, at least as far as I've read). If it wasn't for the alchemist part, you could ignore int and do +2 dex instead of +2 int.
Multitalented could let you ignore the int requirement, but it simply comes online too late.
Anyways, I'm not sure rogue is "easier" it's just swapping from a strength based build to a dex based build. The dex build has easier AC via dex vs mountain stance but lacks real support for Unarmed combat stuff. Monk is harder to do with AC, but has lots of support for punching.
Rogue is an interesting thought, but I'm not sure I like it.
In the book, Carl's class is a special hybrid monk rogue, and his bomb stuff doesn't really come a from a class but stuff he finds in the dungeon with his separate bomb/trap related skill progression. But PF2 doesn't really have a way to represent that, and you can't rely on simply getting a bunch of explosives to throw at your enemies (unless you take Alchemist).
If Carl is not written to be a heavy-hitter among his peers, then I would recommend flipping to go DEX over STR.
STR only enables things like top-tier Athletics, and adds some damage to Strikes. "What you can do" is helped much more by DEX.
Even if Carl can punch things real good, that doesn't equate to STR imo, plus Fist is actually Finesse by default, so that's actually "a DEX thing" from that PoV.
I def agree to only pick up Alchemist as an archetype.
For the main class, it's more about what you'd consider more "core" to his character.
Does Carl have the consistency of a Fighter?
The persistence of a Guardian?
The skill diversity of a Rogue?
The insightful analysis of an Investigator?
etcetera.
If Carl is not written to be a heavy-hitter among his peers, then I would recommend flipping to go DEX over STR.
STR only enables things like top-tier Athletics, and adds some damage to Strikes. "What you can do" is helped much more by DEX.
Even if Carl can punch things real good, that doesn't equate to STR imo, plus Fist is actually Finesse by default, so that's actually "a DEX thing" from that PoV.
I def agree to only pick up Alchemist as an archetype.
For the main class, it's more about what you'd consider more "core" to his character.
Does Carl have the consistency of a Fighter?
The persistence of a Guardian?
The skill diversity of a Rogue?
The insightful analysis of an Investigator?
etcetera.
Hmmm....from my perspective Carl is the heavy hitter of his party.
I can't find an exact breakdown of his stats quickly, but his highest stat is strength.
As far as skill....the skill system of the universe doesn't translate to PF2 mechanics...like at all. It's a system of you getter better at a thing by doing the thing. So you can grow skills regardless. There are limits to how high you can grow in a skill based on race/class....so it's just a very different system from PF2. I generally wouldn't consider Carl to be a very skillful character, aside from being good at crafting (bombs and traps).
There is an argument for him having very insightful analysis that allows him to solve problems in unconventional ways...but I'm not sure it translate well into PF2 either.
An Empiricism investigator could be an interesting way to represent him, but you'd need a GM who was interested in giving the character unorthodox ways to defeat enemies based on observing things.
Strangely enough, Investigator fits a lot of PoV protagonists due to the way stories are written to have the protagonist ~earn their victories while the reader is partially inside their head.
Even Investigator's "Strategic Strike" is a rather narrative friendly way to portray protag-powers of being extra good at fighting (but not because their damage stat is so much higher than everyone else's, no no. They "are better" often because they get the most mileage out of the modest numbers that they do have.)
I've only heard tiny bits about DD Carl, didn't know it had actual numerical stats. I have heard he is a bit of a leader, so Commander and Marshal might be on the table.
Also perfectly matches book narratives, where protag is like 90% certain to shout "Now!" to trigger an attack at some point in the story, ha ha.
Carl's stats through book 3 are here. It gets harder to track after that as the books don't mention the raw numbers as often so I haven't seen a more updated source.
Carl doesn't translate well to PF2, since his class is a Compensated Anarchist (which would be a Rogue/Alchemist hybrid) and his subclass is Agent Provocateur, which covers is bomb focused and includes wide area ordinance that is simply beyond what PF2's balancing allows. Meanwhile he really likes being in melee due to his high STR and the AI's obsession with his feet.
Dual class could cover that first part, since that's a better representation of how Carl's class works than making one a weaker archetype does. Or just give Carl massively accelerated/cheaper crafting like the setting does, since he doesn't actually tend to whip bombs up on the fly: he made them in advance at his table/bought them/found them. In that case you can skip Alchemist entirely since PF2 alchemy mechanics don't really fit Carl's vibe.
There's still issues, though. Like, the bombs Carl's making in book 7 are orders of magnitude beyond anything in PF2.
He's also getting a lot of bonus ability points from class abilities, items, the Ring of Divine Suffering, and such, and there's no way short of house rules to express that.
(Wisdom is also a hidden stat in DCC, but given Carl's ability to make his bonkers plans actually work, it feels like his Wisdom is probably higher than you'd think.)
With a bunch of house ruling and a custom class you could get something that would look similar, but I don't think you can capture the feel of DCC in PF2. DCC is a very over the top setting where the power scales are totally out of whack, you can have any skill you put effort into, item boosts are far more powerful, and in general it just flies in the face of the mathematical balance that PF2 wants to impose.
Yeah, most media protagonists align with Dual-Class vibes (more if operating alone, but also when above their peers). And also higher level abilities & stats, if citizens have been left in the dust. So if this is just a thought experiment, perhaps assign a higher level even for "starter Carl". If meant for play, it's the age-old problem of needing to level up even to reach the character's beginning, and you just do what you can until all the parts come together.
I wonder if the extraordinary ordinance might be better represented by a Snarecrafter with high-level Snares, some of which get absurd (and since he does make traps). Of course scale will still be balanced differently. And there's also Inventor w/ modest Int. Both would capture the Crafting side w/o the insta-brew add on. And as mentioned, the dungeon itself would supply the components; as in Carl's spending a lot of his found wealth/resources on consumable-weaponry. That doesn't even have to be based on a class ability if burning enough pseudo-gold.
Carl's stats through book 3 are here. It gets harder to track after that as the books don't mention the raw numbers as often so I haven't seen a more updated source.
Carl doesn't translate well to PF2, since his class is a Compensated Anarchist (which would be a Rogue/Alchemist hybrid) and his subclass is Agent Provocateur, which covers is bomb focused and includes wide area ordinance that is simply beyond what PF2's balancing allows. Meanwhile he really likes being in melee due to his high STR and the AI's obsession with his feet.
Dual class could cover that first part, since that's a better representation of how Carl's class works than making one a weaker archetype does. Or just give Carl massively accelerated/cheaper crafting like the setting does, since he doesn't actually tend to whip bombs up on the fly: he made them in advance at his table/bought them/found them. In that case you can skip Alchemist entirely since PF2 alchemy mechanics don't really fit Carl's vibe.
There's still issues, though. Like, the bombs Carl's making in book 7 are orders of magnitude beyond anything in PF2.
He's also getting a lot of bonus ability points from class abilities, items, the Ring of Divine Suffering, and such, and there's no way short of house rules to express that.
(Wisdom is also a hidden stat in DCC, but given Carl's ability to make his bonkers plans actually work, it feels like his Wisdom is probably higher than you'd think.)
With a bunch of house ruling and a custom class you could get something that would look similar, but I don't think you can capture the feel of DCC in PF2. DCC is a very over the top setting where the power scales are totally out of whack, you can have any skill you put effort into, item boosts are far more powerful, and in general it just flies in the face of the mathematical balance that PF2 wants to impose.
To be clear, I'm not trying to make Carl exactly as the books present him. I'm very aware that it's not possible (it's almost never possible to present a character very accurately in a system it wasn't designed in). I just wanted to make a very Carl-esque character and was looking for input on how others would do it to give me different perspectives.
My original inclination was Monk for punching and alchemist dedication for bombs.
I think most people agree alchemist dedication is the only way to get bombs (reliably) and it will never be as good as what Carl uses, and that's okay.
Edit: The books also call compensated anarchist class a monk/rogue hybrid, but doesn't really give a clear idea of what a rogue does in that system.
Then yeah, I think a Monk/Alchemist dual class with high STR is probably going to get you closest to what you're looking for. :)
Sadly, Soldier's main ability doesn't work with grenades, or I would have given that a look.
Hmm... That does make me think, though, that weaseling allowing certain Starfinder consumables on Pathfinder isn't a bad fit for cookbook, and it would allow using strength for the DC of grenades.
I don't think he does enough maneuvers or zipping about to be a Daredevil. And, as much as I'm eager to slap Thaumaturge on everything (effective d8 kicks!), I don't think that fits either- none of the implements are right and it's squishier than Monk. On the alchemy side, Alchemist definitely fits better than Fireworks Technician.
Yeah, for something Carl-inspired, that's going to be the closest. I'd certainly consider the other options for something more loosely inspired, since giving yourself a little more wiggle room is how you get a more fun original character to play.
Obligatory mention that the Dungeon Crawler Carl TTRPG and card game are being kickstarted on Backerkit, but I imagine that may have been the inspiration.
Then yeah, I think a Monk/Alchemist dual class with high STR is probably going to get you closest to what you're looking for. :)
That was also (clearly) my thought but wanted to hear dissenting opinions and ideas.
Sadly, Soldier's main ability doesn't work with grenades, or I would have given that a look.
Hmm... That does make me think, though, that weaseling allowing certain Starfinder consumables on Pathfinder isn't a bad fit for cookbook, and it would allow using strength for the DC of grenades.
I don't think he does enough maneuvers or zipping about to be a Daredevil. And, as much as I'm eager to slap Thaumaturge on everything (effective d8 kicks!), I don't think that fits either- none of the implements are right and it's squishier than Monk. On the alchemy side, Alchemist definitely fits better than Fireworks Technician.
Yeah, for something Carl-inspired, that's going to be the closest. I'd certainly consider the other options for something more loosely inspired, since giving yourself a little more wiggle room is how you get a more fun original character to play.
Obligatory mention that the Dungeon Crawler Carl TTRPG and card game are being kickstarted on Backerkit, but I imagine that may have been the inspiration.
I assume you mean Starfinder 2E soldier, I guess technically that's compatible with Pathfinder 2E.
And yeah, I saw the card game and TTRPG mentioned (although I didn't find any specific to what the TTRPG system would be like) but yeah, I just got inspired/curious as to what kind of Carl-like character I could make in PF2.
Strength based consumables grenades would be awesome, and the soldier gets a reusable number of those each day that would be perfect.
Edit: I was thinking of the SF1 soldier which gets free grenades. Not seeing a similar option in SF2 but I've paid less attention.
Anyways, sticking with only PF2 stuff I guess I'm happy most people are agreeing with the concept of Monk/Alchemist.
As a result, does anyone have a suggestion other than mountain stance to make it work, since the character should likely be strength based?