Apologies if this has been asked before, but I'm trying to figure out if all of these effects could apply at once. Specifically:
1) Spell Delivery to juice a familiar with a Touch spell
2) Patron's Puppet to have the Command action underlying Spell Delivery only use a Free Action
3) Familiar of Nimble Flight (granted by the Whisper of Wings patron) to have the familiar Fly 15 feet before actually doing the commanded actions
So the Witch would use a Free Action, then the Familiar would Fly 15 feet, move towards the target, and use the touch spell.
It's not clear if the Witch needs to use Spell Delivery the *very moment before* they take their command actions, or if the familiar could get charged up, something like Familiar of Nimble Flight could happen, and then the familiar could do their Spell Delivery actions. Put another way, Spell Delivery requires the familiar to start "in your space," but it's not clear if they'd have to be standing in your space when they *start* the command action, which would cause a problem with Familiar of Nimble Flight.
(There could also be issues with using Spell Delivery and Patron's Puppet I'm not thinking about)
I can't think of a solution to this problem other than "it makes sense narratively for that to work." Any thoughts on the rules? Thank you!
Patron's Puppet
Trigger: Your turn begins
Spell Delivery has you command the familiar after casting the spell, which is not when your turn begins.
Familiar of Nimble Flight would work though, if it also has Fast Movement that would give you 40ft + 15ft reach for your touch spell, a bit better than the 30ft that Reach Spell would give you.
Thanks for clarifying! It seems like I was misunderstanding the actions involved in Spell Delivery. (I'm still separately confused about whether Commanding the familiar takes an additional action, but forum posts suggest everyone is.)
Unfortunately, it seems like Familiar of Nimble Flight would not work unless the touch spell were itself a Hex, and even then you could argue the casting happens before the transfer.
AaronODST1 wrote: Thanks for clarifying! It seems like I was misunderstanding the actions involved in Spell Delivery. (I'm still separately confused about whether Commanding the familiar takes an additional action, but forum posts suggest everyone is.)
Unfortunately, it seems like Familiar of Nimble Flight would not work unless the touch spell were itself a Hex, and even then you could argue the casting happens before the transfer.
For the order of operations, the Witch familar abilities can trigger either before or after casting the hex:
"The benefit can occur only once per round when you Cast or Sustain a hex, and you can choose whether it occurs before or after the effects of Casting or Sustaining the hex."
So if you're casting a Hex and touch the familiar, THEN the ability triggers, so the familiar flies for free for 15ft, then you Command at it's continues moving/delivering.
AaronODST1 wrote: Unfortunately, it seems like Familiar of Nimble Flight would not work unless the touch spell were itself a Hex, and even then you could argue the casting happens before the transfer. You can only use one hex per turn, and Patron's Puppet is a hex. So you can't cast another hex in the same turn you cast PP, despite it being a free action.
Hmmm. Maybe this?
1. (0a) Cast PP
2. (2a) Cast non-hex touch spell on familiar
3. (0a) Resolve familiar's two actions (i.e. fly to enemy and touch them)
4. (1a) move or do something else.
AaronODST1 wrote: I'm still separately confused about whether Commanding the familiar takes an additional action, but forum posts suggest everyone is. Yeah, so am I.
I have heard this ruling before, so it must be at least somewhat popular. But I am skeptical of it being the ruling of the majority of the GMs.
If Spell Delivery still also costs an additional action to command the familiar, how does that let it compete at all favorably with Reach Spell? You are already risking your familiar by having them end their turn adjacent to the spell's target. It would take another additional action on Command Familiar to get it to come back to your space so that you could use the ability again.
And from a mechanics side, that ruling is ignoring the idea that 'abilities do what they say they do' and that abilities should be functional enough to be usable. There are no action costs listed for any of the steps of using Spell Delivery.
Yes, it is probably too good to be true that the entire ability, including Cast a Spell, costs no actions.
But there are three separate things that the caster is supposed to do:
* Cast a Spell
* Transfer the power to the familiar
* Command the familiar
It is very much unspecified and ambiguous on which of those cost actions and which don't. Just because there is a separate action defined for Command a Minion and not one for transferring spell power to the familiar - doesn't prove that it is intended that commanding the familiar costs an action and transferring power does not. Subordinate Actions are a thing and don't cost additional actions for their use.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Finoan wrote: AaronODST1 wrote: I'm still separately confused about whether Commanding the familiar takes an additional action, but forum posts suggest everyone is. Yeah, so am I.
I have heard this ruling before, so it must be at least somewhat popular. But I am skeptical of it being the ruling of the majority of the GMs.
If Spell Delivery still also costs an additional action to command the familiar, how does that let it compete at all favorably with Reach Spell? You are already risking your familiar by having them end their turn adjacent to the spell's target. It would take another additional action on Command Familiar to get it to come back to your space so that you could use the ability again.
And from a mechanics side, that ruling is ignoring the idea that 'abilities do what they say they do' and that abilities should be functional enough to be usable. There are no action costs listed for any of the steps of using Spell Delivery.
Yes, it is probably too good to be true that the entire ability, including Cast a Spell, costs no actions.
But there are three separate things that the caster is supposed to do:
* Cast a Spell
* Transfer the power to the familiar
* Command the familiar
It is very much unspecified and ambiguous on which of those cost actions and which don't. Just because there is a separate action defined for Command a Minion and not one for transferring spell power to the familiar - doesn't prove that it is intended that commanding the familiar costs an action and transferring power does not. Subordinate Actions are a thing and don't cost additional actions for their use. Spell Delivery itself is not an Action. It's just an ability of the familiar that triggers when you Cast and then Command. So subordinate action rules don't apply.
There are a lot of Familiar Abilities themselves that are just like that, just a Familiar benefit when you do X or Y Action.
Take as another example Item Delivery:
"If your familiar is adjacent to you, you can Command it to deliver an item. Instead of its normal 2 actions, your familiar Interacts to take an item you’re holding of light Bulk or less, then takes one move action, then finally Interacts to pass off the item to another willing creature. It can instead administer the item to the creature if it can do so with 1 action and has an appropriate type of item (such as alchemical elixir). If your familiar doesn’t reach the target this turn, it holds the item until commanded otherwise. Your familiar must have the manual dexterity ability to select this."
It has no Action cost, it's not an"active ability " it's just something that can happen (if you want) when you perform the Command Action.
Similarly, Spell Delivery is not an Activity itself, it's just something that can happen (if you want) when you Cast a touch spell and subsequently Command.
And some other abilities for comparison:
Focused Rejuvination - very clearly what you are describing. Gaining HP is part of the caster doing something else, namely Refocus.
Play Dead - very clearly something that the familiar has to be commanded to do separately.
Valet - very clearly a modification to the standard Command Minion action.
Spellcasting - very clearly ambiguous. Specifically, ambiguous on what spell action cost is compatible. 2-action spells only? 3-action spells allowed? 1-minute casting time spells? 10-minute cast time?
So I am not convinced that looking specifically at Item Delivery proves the case.
Side note: Item Delivery very much interacts with the Subordinate Actions rules - just for the familiar instead of the caster. The familiar has two actions after they are given commands. Item Delivery has them doing up to 3 actions worth of stuff (1. Interact to take an item, 2. Stride, 3. Interact to deliver the item, or 3. administer the item to the target). Clearly, those must be Subordinate Actions.
shroudb wrote: Finoan wrote: AaronODST1 wrote: I'm still separately confused about whether Commanding the familiar takes an additional action, but forum posts suggest everyone is. Yeah, so am I.
I have heard this ruling before, so it must be at least somewhat popular. But I am skeptical of it being the ruling of the majority of the GMs.
If Spell Delivery still also costs an additional action to command the familiar, how does that let it compete at all favorably with Reach Spell? You are already risking your familiar by having them end their turn adjacent to the spell's target. It would take another additional action on Command Familiar to get it to come back to your space so that you could use the ability again.
And from a mechanics side, that ruling is ignoring the idea that 'abilities do what they say they do' and that abilities should be functional enough to be usable. There are no action costs listed for any of the steps of using Spell Delivery.
Yes, it is probably too good to be true that the entire ability, including Cast a Spell, costs no actions.
But there are three separate things that the caster is supposed to do:
* Cast a Spell
* Transfer the power to the familiar
* Command the familiar
It is very much unspecified and ambiguous on which of those cost actions and which don't. Just because there is a separate action defined for Command a Minion and not one for transferring spell power to the familiar - doesn't prove that it is intended that commanding the familiar costs an action and transferring power does not. Subordinate Actions are a thing and don't cost additional actions for their use. Spell Delivery itself is not an Action. It's just an ability of the familiar that triggers when you Cast and then Command. So subordinate action rules don't apply.
There are a lot of Familiar Abilities themselves that are just like that, just a Familiar benefit when you do X or Y Action.
Take as another example Item Delivery:
"If your familiar is adjacent to you, you... It's worth noting that gets complicated because Spell Delivery (at least as formatted online) differs in a few ways from Item Delivery—
Spell Delivery does not use a capital for Command ("you can cast a spell with a range of touch, transfer its power to your familiar, and command the familiar..."), so it's not *explicitly* telling you to take a Command action.
That same phrase shows that the "you can" statement in Spell Delivery is "you can cast a spell" rather than "you can Command...," meaning it isn't clear if Spell Delivery allows you to *cast touch spells differently* or *do something else before using Command*.
I don't think there's a simple rules-application solution here, because familiar abilities just don't have a lot of text!
Just for clarity's sake, it's also worth noting that Item Delivery isn't technically an ability that "triggers" when you use Command— there's no literal trigger listed and it isn't phrased as "when you would Command your familiar, you can..." Item Delivery seems to give the player a new thing to do that involves a Command action. No clue what to call that.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Finoan wrote: AaronODST1 wrote: I'm still separately confused about whether Commanding the familiar takes an additional action, but forum posts suggest everyone is. Yeah, so am I. Yes. They are minions, they use minion rules. If you want them to be able to take actions independently of your order, you take Independent*. Or if you're a witch, you use PP as a free action.
As others have said, spell delivery is just an ability. A typical use would be to cast the spell (2a), then command your familiar to deliver it (1a; familiar then gains 2a because they were commanded).
*Though it doesn't seem like Independent would be useful here. The way Spell Delivery is written, it sounds like your familiar would need the full two actions from a command to move and touch.
Quote: If Spell Delivery still also costs an additional action to command the familiar, how does that let it compete at all favorably with Reach Spell? Well, you can do spell delivery without buying a feat (...and witches, unlike wizards, have a few good feats competing for that L1 slot). A familiar may be able to move somewhere you don't have sight on, like around a corner. And there may be cases where you want your familiar next to an enemy to trigger a different familiar ability.
But yeah, Reach Spell is generally a lot safer for the familiar.
I do have say though, this thread has made me think of - however risky it is - delivering Gouging Claw via fluffy bunny familiar is a really cool visual. :) "death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth!" "it's got fangs! Run away!" Lol.
Quote: But there are three separate things that the caster is supposed to do:
* Cast a Spell
* Transfer the power to the familiar
* Command the familiar
My reading is that the Spell Delivery ability lets you do the transfer as part of the cast, no extra 'transfer' cost. But the third bullet is still as separate action.
Finoan wrote: And some other abilities for comparison:
Focused Rejuvination - very clearly what you are describing. Gaining HP is part of the caster doing something else, namely Refocus.
Play Dead - very clearly something that the familiar has to be commanded to do separately.
Valet - very clearly a modification to the standard Command Minion action.
Spellcasting - very clearly ambiguous. Specifically, ambiguous on what spell action cost is compatible. 2-action spells only? 3-action spells allowed? 1-minute casting time spells? 10-minute cast time?
So I am not convinced that looking specifically at Item Delivery proves the case.
Side note: Item Delivery very much interacts with the Subordinate Actions rules - just for the familiar instead of the caster. The familiar has two actions after they are given commands. Item Delivery has them doing up to 3 actions worth of stuff (1. Interact to take an item, 2. Stride, 3. Interact to deliver the item, or 3. administer the item to the target). Clearly, those must be Subordinate Actions.
How is more examples NOT proving the point further?
All those change how Actions work but they are NOT separate Activities.
That's not limited to Familiar abilities, there are TONS of Abilities that modify base Actions without being an Activity themselves.
Take Sneak attack as an example. Sneak Attack is not an Activity that contains a Strike, it's just something that happens when you Strike.
Similarily, Spell Delivery is not an Activity, it's just something that you can do when you cast a touch spell and follow up with a command.
As for subordinate actions:
As you said those are th Command's subordinate Actions when you choose to use that ability, not the "item delivery's" subordinate actions.
Exact same way that the Command, when you use Spell delivery, has Subordinate actions (move and administer the spell).
But the Command itself is NOT a subordinate action of any Activity.
As for it being weaker than Reach Spell, it also costs (at maximum) half of what Reach spell costs (a full class feat for Reach vs 1 out of the 2 familiar abilities granted by the Familiar feat).
---
In short, what you are missing here is a base Activity that has the Command as asubordinate action to make the claim that you don't have to Command.
We are left with 2 clear and seperate Actions (Cast a Spell, Command).
shroudb wrote: As for it being weaker than Reach Spell, it also costs (at maximum) half of what Reach spell costs (a full class feat for Reach vs 1 out of the 2 familiar abilities granted by the Familiar feat). Apart from rounding corners it's also 50! ft at the base compared to Reach's 30. Or 80!! ft for just another ability.
Well, unless you count move and touch as two different actions which I won't. There's a Stride action, there's no Touch action. And Interact demands much more manipulation. But here more clarity in the rule would be actually welcome.
__
Also, yes, Command for Spell Delivery does take an action as normal.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: As for it being weaker than Reach Spell, it also costs (at maximum) half of what Reach spell costs (a full class feat for Reach vs 1 out of the 2 familiar abilities granted by the Familiar feat). Apart from rounding corners it's also 50! ft at the base compared to Reach's 30. Or 80!! ft for just another ability.
Well, unless you count move and touch as two different actions which I won't. There's a Stride action, there's no Touch action. And Interact demands much more manipulation. But here more clarity in the rule would be actually welcome.
__
Also, yes, Command for Spell Delivery does take an action as normal. The Spell Delivery explicitly states that you Command your Familiar and it then uses its 2 actions to move and touch. Not that it will Stride twice and touch.
The Raven Black wrote: Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: As for it being weaker than Reach Spell, it also costs (at maximum) half of what Reach spell costs (a full class feat for Reach vs 1 out of the 2 familiar abilities granted by the Familiar feat). Apart from rounding corners it's also 50! ft at the base compared to Reach's 30. Or 80!! ft for just another ability.
Well, unless you count move and touch as two different actions which I won't. There's a Stride action, there's no Touch action. And Interact demands much more manipulation. But here more clarity in the rule would be actually welcome.
__
Also, yes, Command for Spell Delivery does take an action as normal. The Spell Delivery explicitly states that you Command your Familiar and it then uses its 2 actions to move and touch. Not that it will Stride twice and touch. It very explicitly does not state that it uses its 1 action to move and 1 action to touch. And touching does not take an action, not even for PCs. What I'm saying is more in line with the rules and the ability than assuming that touching demands an action now.
Errenor wrote: The Raven Black wrote: Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: As for it being weaker than Reach Spell, it also costs (at maximum) half of what Reach spell costs (a full class feat for Reach vs 1 out of the 2 familiar abilities granted by the Familiar feat). Apart from rounding corners it's also 50! ft at the base compared to Reach's 30. Or 80!! ft for just another ability.
Well, unless you count move and touch as two different actions which I won't. There's a Stride action, there's no Touch action. And Interact demands much more manipulation. But here more clarity in the rule would be actually welcome.
__
Also, yes, Command for Spell Delivery does take an action as normal. The Spell Delivery explicitly states that you Command your Familiar and it then uses its 2 actions to move and touch. Not that it will Stride twice and touch. It very explicitly does not state that it uses its 1 action to move and 1 action to touch. And touching does not take an action, not even for PCs. What I'm saying is more in line with the rules and the ability than assuming that touching demands an action now. IMO, it'd have a specific callout if it could move twice. For instance, Sudden Charge calls out that you can stride twice in the activity and that's just not what we have in Spell Delivery: it doesn't say 'the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move twice to a target of your choice and touch that target'. Move, IMO, isn't open ended to allow any number of move actions.
Errenor wrote: The Raven Black wrote: Errenor wrote: shroudb wrote: As for it being weaker than Reach Spell, it also costs (at maximum) half of what Reach spell costs (a full class feat for Reach vs 1 out of the 2 familiar abilities granted by the Familiar feat). Apart from rounding corners it's also 50! ft at the base compared to Reach's 30. Or 80!! ft for just another ability.
Well, unless you count move and touch as two different actions which I won't. There's a Stride action, there's no Touch action. And Interact demands much more manipulation. But here more clarity in the rule would be actually welcome.
__
Also, yes, Command for Spell Delivery does take an action as normal. The Spell Delivery explicitly states that you Command your Familiar and it then uses its 2 actions to move and touch. Not that it will Stride twice and touch. It very explicitly does not state that it uses its 1 action to move and 1 action to touch. And touching does not take an action, not even for PCs. What I'm saying is more in line with the rules and the ability than assuming that touching demands an action now. It just says that the 2 actions are used to "move and touch". Saying that "move" is equivalent to Stride twice is a bit far-fetched and most GMs will adjudicate it as Stride once IMO.
I know I would.
Quote: the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move to a target of your choice and touch that target. Oof, yeah, that's painfully ambiguous once you pull out the magnifying glass.
It's reasonable to read that as implying 1A is move and 1A is touch... but imo it's also possible to read that as 2A is spent moving.
Based on how the devs write pf2 elsewhere, I'm afraid that it would be consistent for the RaI to be 1A move & 1A touch.
Interact and doing stuff with your hands is just so consistently something that costs 1A across the system, I gotta think that's the RaW.
Putting that RaW to the side, I think I'd houserule buff Spell Delivery, because I'm the only one I've seen in play try to use it (and only once, of course). It's a rather bad familiar ability, lol.
The Raven Black wrote: It just says that the 2 actions are used to "move and touch". Saying that "move" is equivalent to Stride twice is a bit far-fetched and most GMs will adjudicate it as Stride once IMO.
I know I would.
Well, I wrote in the first post on this topic that clarification would be good and that some would probably not rule as I would. I guess I was right :)
I just think that 'move' is equivalent to 'move in any way you can as far as you want and can'. And this ability also includes fly and other speeds familiars could have. This one is definite. Which would explain 'move' and not 'Stride'. And so we can move and have two actions. How would your character do it? Spend only one and stop? To me it's obvious you can spend both. And touching is included into the actions as it included in touch spells.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Errenor wrote: I just think that 'move' is equivalent to 'move in any way you can as far as you want and can'. And this ability also includes fly and other speeds familiars could have. This one is definite. Which would explain 'move' and not 'Stride'. And so we can move and have two actions. How would your character do it? Spend only one and stop? To me it's obvious you can spend both. And touching is included into the actions as it included in touch spells. If I'm GMing, I would want to see something waaaay more mechanically descriptively solid before I gave the witch's familiar 2 strides for free as part of the spell cast. And given the natural language way they write, I also think it's unconvincing to try and argue that they said 'move' instead of 'stride' because they meant 'double stride'.
I mean I'm halfway convinced that if you command your familiar with your third action, it can move twice and deliver the spell. I think you're on firmer ground there by pointing out that if they didn't use spell delivery, the touch would be part of the cast - so why make it a separate action for the familiar. But only halfway. I'm still thinking in my mind that the RAI was a single stride range movement and then the delivery, and they just wrote it really poorly (or at least, so simply it's ambiguous). That would make this familiar ability action-cost-consistent with Reach Spell and keeping Patron's Puppet as a stronger choice, which it should be since you're giving up your ability to cast a (different) hex that round to use it.
Easl wrote: If I'm GMing, I would want to see something waaaay more mechanically descriptively solid before I gave the witch's familiar 2 strides for free as part of the spell cast.
But it's not for free. They literally spend their only 2 actions they have to Stride (fly...) twice. Only the touch is for free (and it should be anyway, it not enough to demand full Interact for it). And the action to Command from the owner is still there.
Also, as Finoan noted, for example "Item Delivery has them doing up to 3 actions worth of stuff". So some action compression is not out of the question anyway.
And this answers Finoan's question:
"If Spell Delivery still also costs an additional action to command the familiar, how does that let it compete at all favorably with Reach Spell? "
The answer is (much) greater distance and corner rounding. In return for higher risk for the familiar.
Magus has Familiar as a class feat, but not Reach Spell.
Also corner rounding is great. Especially to deliver a beneficial touch spell to an ally.
Errenor wrote: And this answers Finoan's question:
"If Spell Delivery still also costs an additional action to command the familiar, how does that let it compete at all favorably with Reach Spell? "
The answer is (much) greater distance and corner rounding. In return for higher risk for the familiar.
The corner rounding, save a feat, and position familiar were the answers I gave to Finoan. And that was in defense of 2a cast, then 1a command leading to single move and touch. Because that is reasonably balanced against Reach Spell: now both take the same number of actons to deliver a touch cast to approximately the same range. (25' move vs 30')
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Easl wrote: Errenor wrote: And this answers Finoan's question:
"If Spell Delivery still also costs an additional action to command the familiar, how does that let it compete at all favorably with Reach Spell? "
The answer is (much) greater distance and corner rounding. In return for higher risk for the familiar.
The corner rounding, save a feat, and position familiar were the answers I gave to Finoan. And that was in defense of 2a cast, then 1a command leading to single move and touch. Because that is reasonably balanced against Reach Spell: now both take the same number of actons to deliver a touch cast to approximately the same range. (25' move vs 30')
Not to mention the Familiar can make a 40' move with the Fast Movement ability.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Easl wrote: The corner rounding, save a feat, and position familiar were the answers I gave to Finoan. And that was in defense of 2a cast, then 1a command leading to single move and touch. Because that is reasonably balanced against Reach Spell: now both take the same number of actons to deliver a touch cast to approximately the same range. (25' move vs 30') This is not really directed at you specifically, just using it as an example.
Imo, a lot of feats and options in pf2 are hurt by that kind of "quick numbers checking at a glance" style of balancing.
You end up with a lot of things that look cool on paper, but because their number performance is "balanced" against the base simple version, all those neat details make the cool option significantly worse.
Which is veeery much the case for Spell Delivery. A prerequisite of the familiar's position is enough that S.Delivery "should" have a better range, and the outcome where the familiar is now in touch range of your target "should" mean S.Delivery offers MUCH better numbers than Reach Spell.
(Which you then need to reverse and reduce a bit due to the cost comparison of a familiar ability VS L1 class feat. In total though, the familiar movement stuff waaay overtakes that cost imbalance, imo.)
Overall, there is a rather bad pattern in pf2 where restrictive and niche circumstance abilities measure very poorly against their generalist "everyday" counterparts. This is not talking about "silver bullet" stuff either, just options where the flavor is core to the mechanic, like using a familiar to deliver a spell, that end up simply being inferior and frustrating to actually use in practice.
Yah reach spell don’t leave your familar next to the enemy. That’s a big cost.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Trip.H wrote: . A prerequisite of the familiar's position is enough that S.Delivery "should" have a better range, and the outcome where the familiar is now in touch range of your target "should" mean S.Delivery offers MUCH better numbers than Reach Spell. I disagree. Given we are talking about a choice and that many familiar abilities work at short range, I don't see these as issues. Use S. delivery in cases where it is good, don't use it when it's a detriment.
You state that a lot of feats in PF2E suffer from quick balance matching, but I think this is more a player issue - players thinking that taking S. delivery familiar ability is supposed to be some sort of major power-up, when as a daily prep choice, it's never been intended to be that.
This is particularly true for witch. Not only do do you get the daily prep choice for familiar abilities, but you also choose your spells during daily prep. And your familiar resurrects every morning. So if you are delivering touch spells via familiar's S. Delivery ability, it's not because the game or your class forced you into it, it's not even because some feat choice you made three sessions ago now locked you into a play style. It's because you the player chose to take touch spells that day, and chose to take the S. delivery ability that day, in order to play that style. That's going to be a good choice some time, bad choice other times, but in no way do I see any reason why it "should" be numerically better than a feat that requires a week of downtime to retrain. It doesn't work out as well as you'd like? Or you think tomorrow you'll be facing a familiar-killer? Then you completely respec both your spells and familiar abilities for free next morning. The guy who took Reach Spell, meanwhile, is stuck with it.
That’s one class and familiars should be really good for that class, it’s their whole thing.
And honestly I’m not so sure that 1/day revive is such a great reason to yolo your familiar at a guy because witch wants that familiar *alive* throughout the day and misses it more than other classes.
ScooterScoots wrote: That’s one class and familiars should be really good for that class, it’s their whole thing. But they are really good. You get an extra ability and you get PP which means if you choose to deliver a non-hex spell, you have 1a saved on action economy.
Again, nobody is forcing you to take S. Delivery with Touch spells. Those are both daily choices any prepared spellcaster can change every time your PC wakes up. If you don't think it's going to work against the day's enemies, take different spells and familiar abilities that day. It's not a permanent choice like a feat, so I don't get the logic of "but since it puts the familiar in danger, it must be compensated for by making it much better." No. The answer to that is: if danger to the familiar is a major tactical issue, choose a different daily prep and different tactics. Because you can - neither class nor feats nor any other build choice locks you into using S. Delivery as a constant tactic. As a familiar ability, it is "select on days when you think it will be useful, select otherwise on days it is not."
Easl wrote: ScooterScoots wrote: That’s one class and familiars should be really good for that class, it’s their whole thing. But they are really good. You get an extra ability and you get PP which means if you choose to deliver a non-hex spell, you have 1a saved on action economy.
Again, nobody is forcing you to take S. Delivery with Touch spells. Those are both daily choices any prepared spellcaster can change every time your PC wakes up. If you don't think it's going to work against the day's enemies, take different spells and familiar abilities that day. It's not a permanent choice like a feat, so I don't get the logic of "but since it puts the familiar in danger, it must be compensated for by making it much better." No. The answer to that is: if danger to the familiar is a major tactical issue, choose a different daily prep and different tactics. Because you can - neither class nor feats nor any other build choice locks you into using S. Delivery as a constant tactic. As a familiar ability, it is "select on days when you think it will be useful, select otherwise on days it is not." While I agree that the ability is fine as is, you can't use PP with it due to timings of PP.
Recent threads in Rules Discussion
|
