If a given game rule says to add extra distance to your Leap, but doesn't reference High Jump or Long Jump, does that bonus also apply to High Jumps and Long Jumps, since they are also considered Leaps?
Something like spry sinews or Crane Stance for example.
The latter does reference High Jump and Long Jump, but only in regards to lowering the DC, which I consider to be a separate effect from increasing the distance of Leaps.
Also, boots of bounding.
It would affect the "Failure: You Leap normally" result of High Jump and Long Jump.
I would probably also allow you to use your normal (and item/spell/stance modified) Leap distance if it is better than what you rolled with a successful High Jump or Long Jump.
But since High Jump and Long Jump are intended to be used instead of Leap when you want to go farther than Leap allows - and mechanically High Jump and Long Jump are setting their distances traveled on their own rather than referencing* Leap distance: no I wouldn't have a bonus to Leap distance also apply to the final result of a High Jump or Long Jump distance.
*: They are setting an explicit distance or using the result of a roll. They aren't saying something like "you jump your Leap distance plus a distance determined by your roll". They reference the Leap action, but don't use the character's Leap distance in their calculations.
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But on a Success it says "you Leap" with a capital L. And these abilities add a bonus when you Leap.
Is it your intent to argue that the character is not in fact taking a Leap subordinate action?
I myself would not add it if the same ability ALSO added extra distance to High Jump and Long Jump (as Dancing Leaf does), in effect doubling up, but I find it hard to believe you don't add a bonus to X when an ability says to add a bonus to X.
But on a Success it says "you Leap" with a capital L. And these abilities add a bonus when you Leap.
Is it your intent to argue that the character is not in fact taking a Leap subordinate action?
I have said nothing about subordinate actions. I don't see how that is relevant in this case.
What I am basing this on is things like if a modification to a land speed also affects your fly speed. If your fly speed is based on your land speed (Fly speed equal to half your Speed, or Fly speed equal to your Speed), then yes - increasing your land speed is going to also increase your fly speed. But if you have a Fly speed that sets its own speed, then that is what you get. You don't also get to have things that increase your Land speed increase your Fly speed arbitrarily.
In this case I am looking at High Jump and Long Jump and seeing that they set a specific distance of their own. They aren't based on your speed. They aren't based on the distance you can Leap. Whether the Leap is a subordinate action or not, High Jump and Long Jump has a specified distance (override of standard Leap action's rules) that you Leap for.
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I can see this being ambiguous. But so far, no one has put forward an argument of why a different ruling is also reasonable and aligned with the rules as they are currently written.
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Doesn't the DC decrease represent/translate that extra oomph?
Yes, High Jump and Long Jump override of standard Leap action's rules. But standard Leap action's rules also set specific distances.
Horizontal jump of Leap is based on land Speed.
"10 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 15 feet, or up to 15 feet horizontally if your Speed is at least 30 feet."
But I can consider that to be a moot rebuttal here. It is more of a technicality than something meaningful.
I think it is hard to argue that Long Jump is inherently a Leap action - they have different names and different action costs. I think the subordinate action route makes more sense. And has more rules to point to.
Such as:
This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but it's modified in any ways listed in the larger action.
So an effect that increases the distance of Leap is going to modify the subordinate Leap action, but then the larger Long Jump action is going to modify it by setting the distance moved explicitly.
If this would lead to some obvious excessive stacking, I may rule as you do.
That is a good idea.
Going with the assumption that the rules are ambiguous and both rulings are equally valid, we should look at what shenanigans we can come up with. Looking for things that are either too bad to be true or causing problems
Edit: I think I have that Cloud Jump hypothetical wrong. Cloud Jump is weird. And seems to be excessive without some massive boosts to your land speed to go along with it.
Doesn't the DC decrease represent/translate that extra oomph?
I'm not sure that it does. At least not any more.
The lower DC would mean that you have less risk of ending up in the 'Failure' outcome and only doing a normal Leap.
But the DC has no effect on how far you actually go. The dice roll result and that alone decides how far you go on a Long Jump. It is your roll result rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5 and that is your distance jumped.
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What I am basing this on is things like if a modification to a land speed also affects your fly speed. If your fly speed is based on your land speed (Fly speed equal to half your Speed, or Fly speed equal to your Speed), then yes - increasing your land speed is going to also increase your fly speed. But if you have a Fly speed that sets its own speed, then that is what you get. You don't also get to have things that increase your Land speed increase your Fly speed arbitrarily.
I think this is a less than perfect analogy because in the "static fly speed" example, your land speed is never referenced, while Leap is always being referenced here.
This issue is a little ambiguous, but I actually side with Ravingdork on this one.
High and Long Jump do genuinely use Leap as a subordinate action.
These actions modify the normal Leap, exchanging the normal Leap distance for _____.
Something that adds distance to Leap does still take effect when doing a Long Jump.
The 'ambiguity' is the order of operations. Do you boost Leap first, then nullify the boost by executing Long Jump's "equals the check result?"
Imo, no. I think Long Jump is intended to exchange out the base Leap value, while still allowing Leap boosters to function.
The Long Jump first modifies the Leap, then your other possible boosts contribute after that.
The only reason to have Long/High jump directly invoke Leap like that is for interactions like Spry Sinews to boost Long Jump. It would have been very easy for the devs to forbid that.
The "cannot exceed your land speed" clause is only affecting that base value before boosts, not the final distance.
This idea of allowing Leap boosts to affect Long Jump is further supported / made into a slam dunk by the Failure outcome of doing a normal Leap.
It would make no bloody sense for the Fail version to grant a longer distance than the success+ outcomes.
Yet, if you prevent Leap boosts from aiding those Success+ outcomes, that is exactly what happens. The Fail result gets boosted by all those different Leap helpers (I have a froggy exemplar on the shelf with a whole lot of them), and that Fail would easily exceed the no-boosts Success outcome.
But, if you treat Long Jump as modifying the base Leap, and allows Leap boosts, then that issue disappears.
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I too would not allow Leap bonuses to exceed one's speed, unless something like Cloud Jump says otherwise.
(Note that I say "bonuses" here as shorthand, but most increases to Leap distance are not called out as bonuses, and so the rules for bonuses don't necessarily apply to them.)
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Why insist the final total Long Jump cannot exceed your Stride speed?
Then yall would still end up with the Fail of Long Jump being a longer distance than the Success via the "normal Leap."
Leap has no such "less than your speed" limitation like that.
As far as I can tell, Long Jump success+ really is just upgrading the base Leap distance, before bonuses.
Firefoot Popcorn doubles Leap, S.Sinews is +10, Tripkee have a +10 feat at L5, etc. No matter how you slice it, that PC is already Leaping faster than they can run. And I have no reason to think that's a problematic result.
(and I have to interpret Firefoot Popcorn as going last. If it was intended to double only base Leap, then it would have just been a +10/15.)
While Leap is kinda worse than a Stride in most ways, it's pretty easy to hop around faster than you'd be able to run in pf2. Which IMO is a good game design result.
It just makes no sense for Long Jump to be a downgrade from base Leap in any circumstance, least of all when the Athl check is a success.
Again, the devs had to intentionally write Long Jump to have it's fail be a normal Leap, and not "a jump of 10 ft" or something.
I really do think this is both RaI and RaW.
It really is just like any other "specific overriding the general."
At baseline, your Long Jump cannot exceed your speed.
If you have effects that increase increase the distance of your Leap, that overrides the normal case in order for those feats/etc to be able to still provide a benefit.
I'm often the one crashing the party with "cant let you do that Star Fox" RaW rulings,
but the notion that Long Jump's text trumps the very abilities intended to enhance it is just wild to me.
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???
Why insist the final total Long Jump cannot exceed your Stride speed?
Because that is literally and explicitly what Long Jump says to do.
Success: You Leap up to a distance equal to your check result rounded down to the nearest 5 feet. You can't jump farther than your land Speed.
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Just High Jump if you have a low Speed and all those effects adding distance (do they stack BTW ?).
Only Long Jump has the distance restriction based on your speed after all.
Amusingly, Cloud Jump's wording seems to imply this distance restriction applies to High Jump, even though it does not exist there.
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I think my post got deleted. Still absurd that there's no removal notification nor reason provided, makes it impossible to adjust future posts to be permissible. I cannot even see the post to copy/paste from, or to review for offending text.
Guessing it was because I dared to criticize Paizo's contradictory product. Speedrun version from recollection:
That is a great find yellowpete, and really throws a wrench into this talk.
It creates a clear RaW contradiction; Leap's text does not have a cap, but that archetype feat claims it does.
A possible cap on Leap distance creates even more headaches.
Do the Leap boosting effects, like "You increase the horizontal distance of your Leap by 10 feet" increase both base and cap, or does it only make it easier to hit that cap?
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The possible Leap cap still does not factor into the prime question of the topic. Do you add the boosts before you limit the result via cap, or do you resolve the jumping action first, then add boosts?
Imo, it's an outright ideal gameplay outcome for a froggy PC that is invested in +Leaps to be able to get more total distance from Long Jump than they could via 2x Stride, while that is not true for base PCs.
For that outcome to happen, I'd have to rule that in a 1v1 contradiction fight, the core book & Leap text wins VS a random archetype feat's text. And that Leap boost considerations work like any other bonus to ___, where the base action is resolved, then the boost is applied as a specific override.
When figuring the distance, I'd first resolve the jumping action, then do "double" effects like Popcorn, then add any flat bonuses at the end, to avoid them double-dipping.
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That's just me though. That text from Malleable Movement is a black & white contradiction that a GM is totally justified to use to cap Leap.
Though effects like Firefoot Popcorn would still double that capped value? ("you can Leap double the normal distance") Idk, that's in the realm of who knows at this point.
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If there is an active rule that caps Leap to your speed, despite boosts, that would break things like Blast Boots, and all other specific jumps that are waaay more than your speed.
Yeah, poking around for more jump stuff, I'm a bit more confident that it's gotta be that Malleable Movement text that is wrong.
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https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=8505
"As normal, this can't increase the distance of your Leap beyond your Speed."The intention with the limit is clear – 24/7 jumping ought not be strictly superior to walking.
There is no such limit for basic Leap. Only for Long Jump.
The feat is in error.
Ok, but this looks like an order of operations problem. Even you don't say both alterations can't work at once. I don't remember a rule to strictly choose the order.So an effect that increases the distance of Leap is going to modify the subordinate Leap action, but then the larger Long Jump action is going to modify it by setting the distance moved explicitly.
I don't think there is a choice of order of operations. Effects that increase Leap would only be able to increase Leap - not the final result of Long Jump.
I don't think there is a choice of order of operations. Effects that increase Leap would only be able to increase Leap - not the final result of Long Jump.
Long Jump is a modified Leap. If you Long Jump, every check result performs the Leap action.
That ruling would be akin to banning Strike boosters from working with any meta-Strike, because "you're not doing a Strike" (when you very much are, the Strike is inside the activity).
You are correct about not really having a choice on the order of operations though. Across all of pf2, you total the base action/case first, then apply modifiers. Which results in Leap boosters granting longer Long Jumps.
Which is akin to that energy mutagen + burn it example.
The core issue is that some readers are interpreting that
Success You Leap up to a distance equal to your check result rounded down to the nearest 5 feet. You can't jump farther than your land Speed.
out of context. In context, that is modifying the previous sentence, it is overriding that [distance = check result] and putting a cap on specifically that.
I really don't think we will ever see another case with such a good RaI "smoke" to signal this fire.
You Stride, then attempt a DC 15 Athletics check to make a long jump in the direction you were Striding. If you didn't Stride at least 10 feet, you automatically fail your check. The GM might increase or decrease this DC depending on the situation.
Success You Leap up to a distance equal to your check result rounded down to the nearest 5 feet. You can't jump farther than your land Speed.
Failure You make a normal horizontal Leap.
Critical Failure You make a normal horizontal Leap, then fall and land prone.
If the dev intended for the 'final' jump distance to be capped, then that cap line would be outside the Success, and inside the general text of the action. This is why I'm so confident that the line is instead just a part of the distance formula, and has no function of creating a 'final' cap that would disable Leap boosts. These are mutually exclusive possibilities.
It is by raw luck that we get a circumstance where the Fail would produce a better result than the Success, which is as bright a "too bad to be true" signal as we can expect within pf2, lol.
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Those Blast Boots are a great example to shine and focus this signal.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1104
When you Activate them to Long Jump, you can increase the horizontal distance of your Long Jump by up to 75 feet.
If yall insist on that Success capping the [final] instead of the [base] distance, you get some crazy stupid nonsense with Blast Boots.
If your check to make a blasting Long Jump is a Success, that +75 jump doesn't matter, and the total distance is capped to your speed.But if you bungle that check and get a Fail, then you no longer hit that cap line, and get the [leap] +75 of jump distance.
Yall. Please. You gotta evaluate text in context, which includes downstream effects like this one.
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The wording on Long Jump is 'bad' from a design PoV, but it's not ambiguous, so I've copied that confusing choice of words to this constructed example that uses an attack instead for the sake of being more familiar:
[flourish] [bombardier] 2 Actions
You bring your hammer down, and use the impact to detonate your primed frazzles to better destroy your foes. Make a Strike against a target. If the Strike hits, then your primed frazzles explode, each dealing 20 more damage to the target. The damage type matches your capsule type. You can't deal more than 80 damage.Special: If you are level ___ then...
When a specific action caps itself, that is no different than any other damage formula. This is the bit that's not getting through. The mechanics of a damage, distance, etc, formula having a cap does not also function as a different mechanic that prevents outside effects from working.
A formula with a self-cap is just a range of possible numbers. You need a specific callout to disable normal buffs or abilities from being able to function, and while that can look very close to that text of Long Jump, we contextually know that's not what it's doing.I can only half-remember the in-game example right now, but there is some Strike enhancer or meta-Strike that disables bonus precision damage like Sneak Attack. It does exist, but disabling outside boosts is very rare in pf2.
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It's not normally relevant, but damage bonuses are always "outside" the action that they are modifying. When you have Gravity Weapon active, you total up the Det Strike damage first, and keep that Gravity Weapon damage in a different bucket. You only add G.Weapon's damage after the Det Strike is fully calculated.
You have to look at the context, and understand that the "can't deal more then 80 damage" is referring to the damage formula of that specific [base!] action. Gravity Weapon, Weapon Specialization, etc, would all be added after the capped 80. The way pf2 works, Detonating Strike is "at most 80 damage (before bonuses)"
This is genuinely not intuitive, because of how often we automatically think of bonus damage as being "inside" or "a part of" the Strike, when that's not actually true. Those chunks of damage are beside, next to the Strike's damage. This matters in the case where an attack/spell/etc caps it's own damage, which is super rare in the system.
And no, that text cannot have two meanings at the same time. If we understand via context that the sentence is a part of the damage formula, that text cannot also have the function of setting a "final" damage cap.
In this context, that "You can't deal more than 80 damage" is translating to "... but the damage cannot exceed 80"
Yet, like everything else in pf2, that's only outlining the parameters of the base form.
Abilities and bonuses that add damage are all specific overrides to that stated 80 damage.
Trip, your various "examples" are straw men and false equivalences.
You really think so? That feels a bit disingenuous.
It seemed pretty clear he was using examples and analogies to illustrate the underlying logic. If you and others are genuinely missing that, it explains why this conversation keeps frustrating everyone.
Blast Boots do not support your argument. Its bonuses to Long Jump and High Jump do not refer to the Leap distance, or to a generic "jump", but specifically to Long Jump or High Jump. Thus they fit neatly into Specific Over General and work exactly as described and expected.
Insofar as I can tell, blast boots are still limited by one's land speed. Nothing in its text counters that rule. Therefor, if you or anyone else wishes to claim otherwise, the burden of proof falls to you.
[blast boots still capped]
They are only capped if you Succeed the check. If you Fail, there's no way to rules lawyer a limit to that Leap. Yall really, really gotta look at that and sit with that outcome.
It's the same for every other jump booster, but not as blatant. If you let the [BASE] action text override feats and effects intended to modify that base, you break the pf2 concept of specific overriding general altogether.
Blast Boots are abnormal in that due to thematics, they primarily boost Long Jump specifically, with bonus lingering benefits to Leap for the higher rank versions.
It makes them a very good example, as the gadget's writer 100%-no-ambiguity understood "increase the horizontal distance" boosts to both Leap and Long Jump to override that default "up to your speed" text of Long Jump.
Thank you for joining the discussion and thinking through the topic.
3. However, the land speed distance cap in the Long Jump success result, as well as the implicit one added to Leap in point 1, should be unmodified by these bonuses, to make the Cloud Jump feat sensible.
I take the opposite position for the very same reason.
If you are a PC invested into jumping, and have +15 total Leap boosters, you need the [only base action capped] version for Cloud Jump to be at all sensible.Cloud Jump is a L15 feat with a prereq of Legendary Alth. That is +23 with just proficiency, before STR and other bonuses to the roll. 5 stat and +2 item is already a +30.
If you take L.Jump's Success to be a future proofed cap, what does Cloud Jump offer? You already hit the speed cap so easily, that 3x mult on the check result is irrelevant. How does that version of Cloud Jump measure up to other Legendary skill feats?
Don't forget, in that version, your Leap boosts only have the function of helping you reach the cap, putting them in ~competition with C.Jump.
+15 Leap boosts, with a +30 to the Athl check, means that rolling a 2 will Long Jump up to a 45 speed. Which will already hit the cap, without Cloud Jump.
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Alternatively, if Long & Cloud Jump's text is to cap only that [base] jump, and boosts still work, you fix this in both directions.
The 3x mult no longer competes with other jump boosts, and is genuinely helpful to reach that speed cap.
And the investment of your boosts is still respected, adding that extra +15 after you calc that jump distance.
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Pf2 really is constructed with the notion that you resolve and total the base action first, and all modifying text is appended to be read and executed AFTER that.
(and sometimes this is REALLY mandatory to be able to play. Text can have a lot of retro-causality changing of what's already happened, like Shield Block. Trying to inject those abilities/effects in the middle of their relevant action can and will cause breakage, like with Long Jump)
I'll repeat that we already do this "modifiers come after" correctly for everything else that has an odd self-cap. You total the spell, etc,'s capped damage first, then add boosts like Sorcerous Potency AFTER that.
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When reading text, even the placement of a sentence can genuinely change its meaning via that nasty issue of context. If Long Jump was intended to have its final distance capped to one's speed, it firstly would require language that calls out jump boosts, but it would also need to put that text in a different spot, outside just the Success text. That is so obvious I'm baffled it's still being contested.
I really don't know how to better frame the issue of Fail going further than Success with a single boost effect to give that crimson "somethings wrong" flag more impact, lol.
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And it's really bizarre that folks seem allergic to the idea of a jump invested PC actually, ya know, having a reason to jump around?
Yes, that PC that spent 1,300 gold to have a shady surgeon graft their body with foreign parts can Long Jump 10ft further than their peer who runs at the same speed.
Stars below guys, how is that considered to be a bad outcome?
Every jumping action is still capped to be at most [speed] + [jump boosters].
Jumping is fully committal, while Stride is square by square. That alone scares many people away from doing it. But the issue of needing a straight line is even more of an issue in real play, imo. You cannot jump through/around obstructions. At best, you can use the >Stride distance + Wall Jump to still get there in 2 jumps, but that's banking on a small margin to only break even with 2x Stride.
It's just alien to me that folks seem to think that Long Jumping more than one's land speed is some balance breaking idea, and I'd wonder how many also happen to be fine with TMI + Tailwind wands.
You are not understanding what I mean by executing, and fully resolving, the base action first.
That Success line DOES CAP the distance of Long Jump.
The disconnect btwn us is that you are keeping Long Jump's function "open and active" instead of letting it end, become fully inactive, before you start reading the modifier text.
That base L.Jump = cap distance is finished right then, same as with any other number formula. It doesn't stay active to later override other text. That function/mechanic to disable outside text is an entirely different thing in pf2, and always requires a specific callout of such behavior.
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You are the one not applying pf2's rules evenly here.
... This deals 2d6 damage of the attuned type for every full 10 minutes of duration remaining (maximum 8d6) to each creature in the area, with a DC 25 basic Reflex save.
This text instructs that the breath does a maximum of 8d6. That is unambiguously a cap. That energy breath effect cannot deal more damage than 8d6.
[8d6] is just as much of a number as [= your speed]I like this example because the construction is the exact same. A number is set to equal an uncapped formula, and then the very next text puts a cap on it.
When applying your L.Jump logic evenly, that 8d6 cap becomes a "final cap" that prevents all other effects and modifiers from happening.
Even something as core as Weakness damage would no longer happen, because [8d6 + X] > [8d6].
And that "final cap" logic certainly would prevent Burn It!'s bonus damage from applying; that energy breath cannot deal more than 8d6.
I'm not much of a spellcaster, but I'll poke around AoN more later. Though I can say all cases of spell text dealing flat "the spell does X damage" would then also mutate into "final caps values" that overrule damage bonuses. The spells says it deals X damage, then it must deal exactly X damage. No bonuses allowed.
This is what I mean by saying that method of operation is fundamentally not applying the logic of pf2 correctly.
One has to allow numbers to be just numbers, and not interpret such text as special rules instructions that go so far as to override text of outside abilities.
It might be more useful to find that half-remembered martial example that does call out and shut off precision boosts like Sneak Attack.
I'm starting to come around to Trip.H's viewpoint.
So...how far can this character jump?
I've tried figuring it out, but I keep getting turned around and lost.
Theres a few places in the rules were it vaguely points to the maximum distance a character can move in a single action being their speed while referring to actions other than stride. To the point where the text in long jump might aswell be reminder text.
This is exactly the kind of "yes, but also no" statement that makes this interaction so difficult to explain.
It is absolutely correct to say that L.Jump's distance is capped to your speed.
The catch is that all text mentioning this fact is specifically talking about [BASE] L.Jump. Before L.Jump is changed by other feats/items/etc. The way pf2 requires that textual references that mention named actions, etc, are pointing "specifically to the base version" is increasingly a common point of misunderstanding that generates rules discussions.
This same detail of "specificity to that base version" is how I ended up being 1 of maybe 3 people online to correctly insist that Sticky Bomb did not benefit from splash-boosting special throws.
When you encounter such a jump booster with text like "increase the distance of your Long Jump," it is also talking about, and specifically overriding that [base] version of L.Jump.
In order to apply those boosts, you first need to calculate what that base L.Jump is, which is when you apply and finalize the speed-capped distance. Before you even begin the modifier feat/item/etc text.
For Sticky Bomb, this means you finalize and add the bonus persistent damage *before* the special throws enter into the consideration.
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These sets of rockets come in pairs and strap onto existing footwear (or a creature's feet). Inserting them and aligning them properly takes 1 minute. When you Activate the blast boots, you can High Jump or Long Jump, without the need to Stride first. Higher-level versions increase the distance of your High Jump or Long Jump.
When you Activate the greater blast boots to High Jump, you can increase the vertical distance of your High Jump by up to 50 feet. When you Activate them to Long Jump, you can increase the horizontal distance of your Long Jump by up to 75 feet. Additionally, for 1 minute, the greater blast boots continue to boost your jumps. Every time you Leap during the duration, you can move 30 feet in any direction, or your normal Leap distance, whichever is further.
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When Leaping horizontally, you move an additional 5 feet. This additional distance isn't cumulative with the increased Leap distance from the Powerful Leap feat. In addition, when you attempt a Long Jump, you can jump a distance up to 10 feet farther than you normally would based on the result of your Athletics check, though you still can't jump farther than your Speed.
You can jump 5 feet up with a vertical Leap without making a High Jump. You also increase the horizontal distance when you Leap, including as part of a High Jump or Long Jump, by 5 feet.
Winglets is another great example, because it does have the text required to block jump stacking with Powerful Leap AND has the text to not override the speed cap.
Because, again, without such text, an effect like blast boots that increases the normal jump distance must do exactly that. You first determine what that normal jump distance is, which is when you lock in that speed-capped value. Then you apply that jump boost, after the speed capped value is finalized.
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You fire your weapon as you jump, using the kickback to go farther. You Leap and discharge your firearm to add a +10-foot status bonus to the distance traveled. If you spend 2 actions for Black Powder Boost, you High Jump or Long Jump instead.
Special An ability that allows you to High Jump or Long Jump as a single action (like the Quick Jump skill feat) lets you use Black Powder Boost as a single action for those jumps as well.
Black Powder Boost is an interesting supplemental example, as it uses abnormal wording("to the distance traveled" instead of talking about the jump)
& it labels the boost as a status bonus to help the reader grok that it def does allow one to jump further than L.Jumps = speed cap._______________________
The tendons in your legs are uncommonly stretchy. When you Leap, increase the distance traveled by the listed amount.
Another one that uses "distance traveled"