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It is kind of coming up in other threads, but feels worth its own conversation, is a Dex-based Daredevil viable? And if so, how do you play one?
My first attempt at building a daredevil was to go Dex and assume I was going to be doing a lot of pummeling strike…and then I realized I don’t really get to do anything cool for building that way, and that my STR was going to have to be decent or else I can’t use daring stunt or most of the maneuvering g feats, and my damage was going to be terrible because this class is not built to use finesse weapons or benefit from them.
I think removing the Dex based option actually makes more sense than trying to build it up. At best, a Dex based DD is going to play like a rogue or swashbuckler, and still need so much STR you don’t enable having a CHA or INT option really. This is an athletics manuever class with agile strikes support. It might on the surface look dexterous, but it’s unique and fun stuff are really STR option
Right now I think a Dex-based daredevil is a trap option, and I feel trying to patch the class to make it work is going to take a lot of class budget to be worth it IMO, more so when the class needs buffs desperately even at its best. The class revolves entirely around Athletics maneuvers and Stunt damage, both with are tied to Strength. Since the class doesn't have an auto-scaling skill, if you want to focus on Acrobatics you'll be lagging behind on Athletics which means half of the class (and the stronger half of the class for that matter) is going to underperform.
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Capoiera.
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This is why I'd suggested a Dex subclass where you could substitute Acrobatics for (select?) maneuvers plus add Dex to Stunt Damage. With no class-damage-bonus to Strikes (!), this seems the least the Dex Daredevil needs.
The mechanics support Str + a big-die weapon w/ your favorite maneuver trait(s) simply to earn one's spot in the party roster. Otherwise you're a Swashbuckler who never succeeds gaining Panache (and w/o boosted skill abilities). The Str +4 DD I'd played with recently would've contributed more w/ a maul than the properly thematic agile blade they'd carried.
Right now I think a Dex-based daredevil is a trap option, and I feel trying to patch the class to make it work is going to take a lot of class budget to be worth it IMO, more so when the class needs buffs desperately even at its best. The class revolves entirely around Athletics maneuvers and Stunt damage, both with are tied to Strength. Since the class doesn't have an auto-scaling skill, if you want to focus on Acrobatics you'll be lagging behind on Athletics which means half of the class (and the stronger half of the class for that matter) is going to underperform.
I posted about this recently in the stunt damage thread, but actually, past low levels, stunt damage is also currently a bit of a trap option because getting it requires doing low level feat maneuvers that don’t do anything else (you will almost never move an enemy far enough to make moving an enemy and doing damage with one action a regular occurrence, so you might as well just be striking for damage). However, even the class’ strike actions will pretty much require a fair bit of STR to do much damage with either the agile weapons you want to use with press feats or the archetypes 2 handed builds, so the outcome is the same.
Even from just a fun perspective, there just isn’t enough to do with acrobatics with this class for it to be as rewarding as building a STR Daredevil. That has been my experience anyway.
What does a Dexterity daredevil do? The same as a Dexterity fighter and a Dexterity ranger: pick up a longbow and shoot ranged Strikes. They just won't be as good at it as a fighter or ranger.
Kittyhawk, my Dexterity daredevil, does not use a bow, but she joined a 7-member party with 5 ranged characters. They don't need another archer.
I counted feats and features. Daring Stunt uses Athletics combat maneuvers. Stunt damage adds a Strength bonus. Twelve feats mention Athletics or the Athletics combat maneuvers. Five feats mention Acrobatics or Tumble Through. Opening Gambit mentions both, so I did not include it in either count. Breakaway attack is about Strikes, but those Strikes have finesse, so they work with both Strength and Dexterity. The 26 other feats don't mention anything about Strength, Dexterity, Acrobatics, or Athletics.
Nevertheless, a Dexterity daredevil can use 33 out of 45 feats. Only the weaker performance of Daring Stunt and the reduced damage of melee Strikes and stunt damage cause them to perform worse than a Strength daredevil. And according to other playtesters, stunt damage is not worth building around.
Aside from combat effectiveness, Daring Stunt, stunt damage from props, and the feats are supposed to make the daredevil feel daring. If a daredevil does pick up a bow for more combat effectiveness than Shoving enemies into walls, then that character won't feel daring. That is a problem. A Dexterity daredevil could look clever by using Bouncing Hurl, but not look daring.
I toyed around with making a Daredevil MC Fighter who picked up assisting shot and an air repeater or shurikens , who could throw debris first, then assisting shot various enemies to help out allies but it felt like it would get stuck in a very repetitive game loop and not be very effective.
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I don't think the dexterity-focused daredevil necessarily needs to be removed (although it's a valid option). But for it to continue, a whole range of mechanics that make sense with it needs to be written. Something that doesn't currently exist.
A good example to reflect on this is the rogue, which has both a subclass 100% focused on dexterity, the thief, and one focused on strength, the ruffian.
In the thief, we have dexterity in damage instead of strength, a focus on thievery, stealth, and acrobatics, the primary use of light armor, and an entire set of unique feats.
In the ruffian class, we can deal precision damage with any martial weapon that deals d6 or less damage for martial weapons or d8 for simple weapons. We also have access to medium armor (and easily heavy armor if you're willing to spend an archetype feat for it), high athletics allowing for the efficient use of athletics' maneuvers, and an entire set of unique feats.
The daredevil lacks precisely that. An entire body of writing focused on making a dexterity daredevil work. As it's written today, the difference between making a Strength or Dexterity Damage Defeat is basically the difference between deciding whether to start with +4 Strength and +3 Dexterity or +4 Dexterity and +3 Strength. Since you basically need both, as you're fighting a character where a good portion of the abilities depend on strength to use athletics and get some more melee damage and acrobatics and AC depending on dexterity. Not to mention the Press feats that are mixed between the two.
Perhaps the designer's intention was precisely to make a class that forced both to risk having to keep the constitution reduced. But if that was the case, then the community didn't understand, didn't like, and didn't accept it well.
There's also the possibility that these classes were simply designed in a rush on the eve of delivering the playtest, which would also justify all of this.
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I think a nice and simple solution for this is for the class to have auto-scaling on at least Athletics or Dexterity (I think ideally we need both, because otherwise every DD is going to choose one and use their 3rd/7th/15th skill increases for the other) and change Stunt Damage into something more versatile. I like Teridax's suggestion from another thread where he said Stunt Damage could be replaced with a fist attack after you make a succesful Athletics check, and while I think that would be fine, I think that still keeps the damage of Dex-DDs lower for no reason.
There could be a feat (since the DD seems to be mostly a melee class, but melee classes usually tend to enable a ranged plastyle through their feats) that could allow the DD to take a prop and use it as a improvised weapon for the purposes of Stunt Damage (assuming its tweaked to work similar to Teridax's proposal).
What's funny is that there's a perfect feat that could be tweaked for this purpose; Breakaway Attack. It would not only allow for a ranged option to become viable, but also offer a bit more diversity other than fists for melee. Its also really on theme for a class such as the DD to be someone that pushes people into props, and then takes another prop and smashes it in the face of their foe. I can perfectly see a WWE fighter throwing someone into the ropes and smashing a chair in their head.
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I played with breakaway attack. I took it as my risky flexible feat. It is a nice ranged option on a melee character. It is a nice opener when you really don’t need to move and do a maneuver with daring stunt. It also has flourish so it is once a turn. Its building feats split between supporting melee and ranged. It isn’t bad but your targets all end up having to be pretty close together.
By mid levels though, you get so much better strikes to do in melee it is definitely more of a back up option in the playtest. You can get some interesting feats that work with range, like the one that does extra damage to enfeebled and clumsy enemies and the feat that lets you crit on a 19, but it is pretty sparse.
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I think this is a case where it's important to set a distinction between "focuses on this stat but picks others that are relevant" and "focuses on this stat and dumps other relevant options". A Daredevil that boosts both Strength and Dexterity, but focuses on the latter, I think can do a few smaller things better like Tumble Through and make ranged Breakaway Attacks, while being behind in maneuvers and melee damage. A Daredevil that focuses on Dexterity and dumps Strength will be terrible at maneuvers, so they wouldn't be able to use Daring Stunt or a lot of their feats very well, nor would they deal much melee damage early on, so I would advise against dumping Strength.
With that said, the reverse is also true: a Daredevil who focuses on Strength but not Dexterity will have terrible AC and Reflex saves, while also not being terribly good at Acrobatics checks. In either case, I think the reasonable observation to make is that regardless of which boost you pick from your class, you will want to boost both Strength and Dexterity as you level up. This makes it difficult to pick Charisma for the relevant feats and thus gives the Daredevil very little to work with in social scenarios, which I think is one of the class's flaws. It also in my opinion makes several of the Daredevil's feats less useful, specifically the ones that let you use Acrobatics to do Athletics stuff and vice versa, as I think the most effective build for the class right now involves boosting both attributes and increasing both skills. Committing to both paths at the same time I think is fine, but the class could use some better support in their features so that they can do that without pigeonholing themselves into a build that has nothing to offer outside of combat and exploration.
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I think a nice and simple solution for this is for the class to have auto-scaling on at least Athletics or Dexterity (I think ideally we need both, because otherwise every DD is going to choose one and use their 3rd/7th/15th skill increases for the other) and change Stunt Damage into something more versatile. I like Teridax's suggestion from another thread where he said Stunt Damage could be replaced with a fist attack after you make a succesful Athletics check, and while I think that would be fine, I think that still keeps the damage of Dex-DDs lower for no reason.
Not wanting to belittle your solution, because it's also something I think the Daredevil needs to avoid having its skill selection locked, forcing it to invest in Athletics and Acrobatics. But this solution deals with a different problem.
In practice, the structural flaw goes beyond having or not having automatic proficiency in these skills; it also stems from the fact that it forces a MAD on the class. You simply can't make a Daredevil without investing heavily in both attributes, even if you are automatically legendary in Athletics and Acrobatics. When you have a class full of press feats with a high risk of failure, you can't afford not to have a high attribute in the feat you intend to use.
This falls more into the category of allowing the use of Dexterity for Athletics and Strength for Acrobatics or creating an alternative to Daring Stunt that doesn't depend on Athletics for acrobatics builds. In addition, improving or replacing the Strength bonus from Stunt Damage with a fixed bonus or an extra die, or, as Teridax suggested, a Strike as a free action (this would allow not only better use of runes but perhaps even a ranged attack, helping to justify a build focused on Dexterity).
In other words, automatic proficiency isn't the solution to the problem but the minimum that needs to be done. Many more things need to be adjusted for the class to be worth playing with Dexterity as a key attribute. Otherwise, it's better to simply remove it and focus only on Strength.
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I agree with Yuri. I think it is possible to add enough support to make Dex-based Daredevil viable, and it is a class that can’t completely tank Dex, which inherently makes it pretty MAD as “Dex or STR” is the primary martial build separator, but my big concern about building up a Dex-based DD is that it is going to require more stuff that make it look more and more like a swashbuckler.
Thematically, acrobatics feels very Daredevil-like, but mechanically there is very little to do with the skill actions of acrobatics that are not core to the swashbuckler class.
This I think is one of the few instances where in addition to bonus skill increases, it might be justified to give the Daredevil additional attribute boosts, so that they can cover both Strength and Dexterity in addition to Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma. Part of it is that the Daredevil is in the unique position of being a light armor class that also wants lots of Strength by default, but part of it is also that their role is so niche to begin with that making them good at five out of six attributes would be unlikely to make them too much of a generalist, as would be a risk with other classes. Choosing whether to put an extra +1 onto already competent Strength and Dex mods I think would be a reasonable choice for the class, as opposed to maxing out one of the two attributes and dumping the other.
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Please, no extra attributes. That'd be a ham-handed fix at best, and there remain many more interesting solutions right here in this thread.
Please, no extra attributes. That'd be a ham-handed fix at best, and there remain many more interesting solutions right here in this thread.
Such as?
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This is my guess about most likely options:
1. Don’t offer Dex-based as an Ket attribute option. Rewrite acrobatics-based feats to assume a -1 or -2 attribute bonus. They are already not great and could use rebalancing. Increase AC/defenses within the chassis. Assume Dex is still very much a highly necessary secondary stat, but focus abilities on strikes that will benefit from STR to damage and maneuver feats that mostly build off athletics. (This is my preferred, hence why it is first, not that I think it is most likely)
2. Offer 2 class paths, one for each attribute. STR is mostly as above. Dex needs a static damage booster, a plus one bonus to athletics checks (or some subset of athletic checks). Both will need something unique and interesting because right now the difference in builds is so close that the choice is mostly an illusion or a trap. Probably remove +STR to stunt damage and increase the damage dice to compensate, and add more high level feats to allow stunt damage off acrobatics maneuvers.
The reason I don’t love 2 is because static damage bonuses to finesse weapons is a played out mechanic at this point that just makes the dex DD feel more like a class that should be an archetype of another class that already dice the acrobatics around and strike game play better.
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Pathfinder 2nd Edition has a nice system for armor. If a melee martial character is proficiency only in light armor, then they need STR +1 and DEX +3 in order to gain AC 18 at 1st level. With medium armor proficiency, the character can go down to STR +2 DEX +2 or STR +3 DEX +1 for AC 18 without penalties. With heavy armor proficiency, the character could have STR +4 DEX +0. Getting +1 in an attribute score is no strain due to the boost to four distinct attribute scores at 1st level.
If a Strength-based daredevil gained training in medium armor at 1st level, then they won't need to invest in Dexterity any more than DEX +1. A human could manage this with Versatile Human heritage to gain Armor Proficiency general feat 1. Or the daredevil class could be altered to give medium armor training to every daredevil.
Enabling the Dexterity-based daredevil is more difficult. The class could replace the Strength bonus to stunt damage with another d6. The class could find a way to combine props with ranged attacks, such as "I throw a pot at his head with Breakaway Attack and my other feat forces him to take a step backwards. He should trip over the chair behind him." But Daring Stunt definitely favors Strength and Athletics, so the Dexterity daredevil is at a disadvantage.
I guess the third option which I ignored because I don’t like it to have the DEX and STR builds designed around actually tanking the other attribute in order to be able to have a floating attribute like CHA or INT (for piloting).
This would require attribute swapping or skill swapping for maneuvers or feats, and more extreme versions of my number 2 adjustments above.
The reason I dislike this option so much is because attribute swapping was way overdone in 3.5 and PF1 and leads to making well balanced characters a bad idea. Like it makes a lot of sense to me that dare devils should be fast and strong. Probably not as strong as a raging barbarian, but they won’t be from just having a +4 STR.
For me, the big issue with giving the Daredevil better armor proficiency is thematics: the Daredevil is, in my opinion, not a class that's about being heavily armored, nor really protected much at all by things like gear. I can understand giving the Daredevil light armor proficiency, because a 8 HP/level melee cloth martial would be even more fragile, but medium armor proficiency I think starts creating a problem of pitting mechanics against flavor, while also potentially worsening the thematic dissonance by making it easy for the class to opt into scaling heavy armor proficiency via archetype at level 2. Given how MAD the class is now, having Daredevils in full plate cannonballing across the map would not only be likely, but possibly even optimal. In fact, this is even possible now if you pick a human.
For that same reason, I'm also not a terribly big fan of others' proposals to split the already niche Daredevil into even more niche subclasses. It's not just that I find the idea hackneyed and far more disruptive than anything else proposed for this kind of issue, the intent here is clearly just to solve a mechanical problem rather than dig any deeper into what a Dex- or Strength- based Daredevil actually means in terms of embodying their class fantasy. Even on mechanical grounds alone, the class doesn't need to be pigeonholed into a subset of feats when that is already the biggest problem with their existing Acrobatics path. Rogues can accommodate subclasses because they're incredibly versatile in terms of both flavor and mechanics, and even Swashbucklers have enough room to express what kind of Charisma skill they want to use the most in combat. With the Daredevil, by contrast, the only two consistent media references I've seen to express the class are Evel Knievel and Jackie Chan: even if one were to take those references and make a subclass dedicated to emulating literally a person each, I still don't think that would necessarily lead to the Strength and Dexterity paths being discussed here.
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With the Daredevil, by contrast, the only two consistent media references I've seen to express the class are Evel Knievel and Jackie Chan: even if one were to take those references and make a subclass dedicated to emulating literally a person each, I still don't think that would necessarily lead to the Strength and Dexterity paths being discussed here.
Another famous daredevil would be escape artist Harry Houdini. Thievery seems like the iconic skill for him, which could lead to Dirty Trick. A daredevil modeled after Houdini would be a Dexterity daredevil, but with Thievery rather than Acrobatics.
In addition to motorcycle stunt driver, martial arts comedian, and escape artist, I have also found high-wire artists, freehand climbers, BASE jumpers, and race car drivers described as daredevils. In comment #3 LandSwordBear mentioned Capoeira, a dance-like Brazilian martial art. We also have Parkour, a sport about moving through unusual surroundings through athletics and acrobatics.
The real-life examples suggest that daredevil should go beyond Athletics and Acrobatics, but Strength and Dexterity are still the most important. Driving Lore, Piloting Lore, or Sailing Lore making Intelligence important for vehicles is a flaw in Pathfinder's skill system and I would readily accept an attribute substitution for that.
The motorcycle stunt drivers and race car drivers also justify the daredevil's light armor training, since those drivers wear protective gear.
At least for the small, personal vehicles, like bikes, scooters, skateboards, etc, I could see a game wide “use dex for piloting these vehicles” rules as opposed to just a class substitution.
I also don’t want to see sub classes personally. Subclasses that really split a class into parts end up requiring tons more feats to support builds that can’t use each others skills and features. The dexterity based stuff in the playtest though is pretty underwhelming across the board. Most of it needs a serious second pass for the stuff present to work, and the class needs a lot more of that improved kind of stuff to be satisfying in my opinion. That sounds like a heavy load to accomplish by publication time when STR-based Daredevil stuff needs much less polishing to be in a good place. Besides, knowing that Dex is a secondary stat could open up improving a lot of the acrobatics feats in the class even more if it is understood that critting on these things is going to be slightly more difficult for the class, maybe by just seriously dialing down the negative consequences for failure or critical failure. Personally, if the class is STR only, I think letting a lot more ok stuff happen on a failure and much better crit success results, but still having crit failure result in stuff like being left off guard to an enemy or allowing an enemy to move the DD (and enabling more uses of the reaction for being forced to move) would be a pretty cool way of still making acrobatics maneuvers worth doing, even without a great acrobatics skill.
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I think medium armor proficiency and 10+Con HP for the DD are pretty much a given on release. It isn't even the first time that Paizo releases a playtest with less armor or HP than on release, so I'd expect the same to happen here.
In regards to the MADness of the class, I don't think there's really a way to fix it in an elegant way without removing one option or the other. Like, if you make the KAS Strength then you can change all instances of Acrobatics checks for Athletics checks and call it a day, or the opposite if you make the KAS Dexterity. The problem is that I think the class should allow both to exists without forcing people to max Strength and Dexterity, and Athletics and Acrobatics too.
Besides that one out-of-hand dismissal, I do think there is merit to additional attribute boosts locked to Strength or Dexterity. It's unprecedented, which in my opinion isn't entirely a bad thing, but it would be a clean, simple way of letting the Daredevil gain the Strength they need for their maneuvers and the Dex they need for their AC and saves. At that point, although I'd argue Strength would be the better attribute to favor, choosing where to put that +1 and eventual +2 on top (or split +6 modifiers at level 20) would I think work fine either way, as either Daredevil would be viable and, importantly, free to choose from the full range of their own feats.
In general, I do think letting the Daredevil capture a certain character concept ought to be a process of addition, rather than the subtractive process that is parceling out those concepts into subclasses. If we want our BMX Biker or Evel Knievel type, Stunt Driver is at the very least a good start, and if that playstyle needs more support then it could use more feats (that, and including Piloting as a skill from Starfinder 2e wouldn't hurt, especially as it's Dex-based). If we want a Harry Houdini type who's amazing at legerdemain, then either a feat to support Dirty Trick usage, features that would naturally enable that, or both would similarly hit that note without the need for a dedicated subclass. The same could be said for trying to emulate a move Jackie Chan or another famous stunt performer did; that's perfect grounds for creating a feat rather than a subclass. If a player wants to mix and match these concepts, which I'd argue would be a lot easier if they could dip into Strength, Dexterity, and Charisma without much issue, then that would give room for new identities to emerge from the class, something that would be actively hindered in my opinion if the building blocks were isolated from each other through subclasses.
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It would definitely make the class better, and they definitely need to be better... but Daredevils are far from the first class to have attribute issues and aren't anywhere near the top of the list either, so it feels kind of weird to push it as one of their special unique benefits.
Like if I'm building a normal Daredevil and pumping str an dex and extra attribute from a class feature would probably just mean slightly higher starting Wis or maybe throwing it in int for a skill increase if I had a gimmick in mind. Free power, but it doesn't necessarily feel thematic or like it's shoring up a critical weakness. It doesn't give Dex-focused daredevils more to do or address their lack of martial steroid and mediocre core gimmicks or anything like that.
Daredevils aren't even that MAD. Like there are a dozen classes a bonus attribute would make more sense on before them. I just don't really get it.
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Daredevils aren't even that MAD. Like there are a dozen classes a bonus attribute would make more sense on before them. I just don't really get it.
Daredevils are Dual Attribute Dependent. A 1st-level Strength daredevil needs STR +4 DEX +3 for proper AC. A 1st-level Dexterity daredevil needs STR +3 DEX +4 to use Daring Stunt with reasonable rate of success. The attribute scores sum to +9 at 1st level, so that leaves only two attribute boosts for attributes besides Strength and Dexterity, such as CON +1, Int +0, Wis +0, CHA +1.
Some other classes benefit well from another attribute besides their key attribute. But daredevil needs the boosts in both Strength and Dexterity to reach the baseline for the martial classes.
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It would definitely make the class better, and they definitely need to be better... but Daredevils are far from the first class to have attribute issues and aren't anywhere near the top of the list either, so it feels kind of weird to push it as one of their special unique benefits.
Like if I'm building a normal Daredevil and pumping str and dex and extra attribute from a class feature would probably just mean slightly higher starting Wis? Free power, but it doesn't necessarily feel thematic or like it's shoring up a critical weakness. It doesn't give Dex-focused daredevils more to do or address their lack of martial steroid and mediocre core gimmicks or anything like that.
Daredevils aren't even that MAD. Like there are a dozen classes a bonus attribute would make more sense on before them. I just don't really get it.
Well, let's say you get five instead of four attribute boosts at the usual levels, and two of those boosts are locked to Strength and Dex: you could start with a +4 to one and a +3 to the other, so your AC, baseline Strikes, Acrobatics, and Athletics would all be good, and you'd be able to also start with a +2 to Con in addition to a +1 to Wis and Cha, which would subtly help quite a bit with the class's survivability as well as their potential for dipping into Charisma feats. As you'd progress, you'd boost yourself towards an eventual +5 in Strength/Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha, so you'd get solid defenses while also not being useless in social scenarios. You could probably edge a bit more versatility out of the class by being able to choose from a greater spread of skills, but that I think is mitigated by the Daredevil's generally niche nature.
I think the key distinction between the Daredevil and other classes is that the class has the unique combination of wanting both Strength and Dexterity, while also wanting to wear light armor at most on a thematic level: the Rogue and Swashbuckler are light armor classes, but can rely entirely on Dex, with Strength sometimes as a secondary attribute. Though I agree there are many MAD classes like the Inventor, Magus, Mutagenist Alchemist, and Thaumaturge, all of these are medium armor classes, which basically means solving that issue is a feat tax away (which isn't great, but at least manageable). The only other unsolvable case here I think is the Interrogation Investigator, who holds the dubious honor of being potentially dependent on all six attributes at once.
As for thematic reasons, this may be up to taste, but I do think the Daredevil is uniquely suited to this due to the punishment they put themselves through: I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to state that constantly pushing their limits and pulling death-defying stunts have contributed to exceptional levels of physical development. There's other ways to implement equivalent benefits, like attribute or skill swaps on rolls, but that I think would generate the same kinds of thematic concerns while also being more complex and less flexible overall.
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I guess I just don't see those concerns as particularly different from a lot of other classes. +4/+3 is not an uncommon starting statline, and even medium armor classes are still looking at +4/+2 which is barely better and often need investment somewhere else anyways.
Monks are often running +4/+3 too (especially if they're picking weapons or something like gorilla stance). And then you have magi, inventors, investigators, etc. that can credibly be chasing 5 or 6 attributes at once.
Daredevils wanting two stats puts them kind of low down on the list here in terms of wild stat requirements. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have more stat increases, but almost everyone in the game is wishing they had more, other than maybe Wis casters and thief rogues.
... In a way the suggestion is kind of fitting for the worst reason. It's a class level fix for a system level problem (low level attribute scores being extremely tight on a lot of classes), which is kind of a criticism of the daredevil in general right now.
Plus even in this thread we've had people talk about Str primary and Dex primary daredevils that solve their problems elsewhere. Probably not the best or easiest thing to pull off, but if you go that route you end up kind of SAD. There's just nothing really out there about the daredevil's attribute needs that make this make sense when compared to so many other classes.
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I definitely don't disagree; at the root of this is the fundamental issue that attributes suck as a mechanic, and create these kinds of problems where classes can't do what they're supposed to very well within the system's standard constraints. I'd love to get rid of them, but that's a 3e kind of suggestion rather than a solution to the limitations being discussed here.
I will say, though, the Daredevil's problems aren't quite the same as the other classes mentioned here: for starters, the class is pulled towards Charisma via their feats on top of the standard Strength-Dex-Con-Wis, and sacrificing any of the latter attributes carries pretty dire consequences for an extremely squishy class that puts itself at exceptionally high risk. Importantly, they lack the means to cleanly ditch either Strength or Dex: Monks, who have exceptionally strong and flexible defenses, also get feats like Mountain Stance to help concentrate their attribute selection, whereas medium armor classes are at least one feat away from solving their attribute dependencies. The most credible path I can think of for doing something similar on a Daredevil is to go for a human, pick Armor Proficiency, and then dip into a Champion or Sentinel archetype to wear full armor, which sounds neither terribly convenient nor thematically appropriate.
The alternative I suppose could be to just ditch the Daredevil's two Charisma feats, but I think that'd be a shame. For starters, Charisma I think is an appropriate attribute for a Daredevil to have on the side, but the class is already so niche at the one thing they do that being made to essentially sit out most social situations for lack of effective skills would, in my opinion, lead to a class that barely gets to play at all. By contrast, MAD as they are, Investigators and other classes with mental attribute dependencies have many more things they can do out of combat. This I think is another key distinction: for most of the aforementioned classes besides the Magus or Monk, they stretch themselves too thin because they're looking for room to boost physical attributes on top of the mental attributes they rely on. For the Daredevil, the problem comes from trying to accommodate more than one mental attribute when they're currently pressured to boost all of their physical attributes, all of the time.
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I think we accept the monk's MADness because its a really good class, which is something we can't really say for the daredevil because we don't have the final version right now. Otherwise, the daredevil having to start with +4 Str/+3 Dex or +4 Dex/+3 Str isn't much different than it is for monks, so assuming the better for the class on release, I think we should rather focus and provide feedback on the other problems of the class if we want the class fixed.
But regardless, I kinda find the daredevil's focus on Str, Dex, Con, and Cha as a thematic because, besides the obvious reasons, it leads to a class that ends up with both low Int an Wis, which is thematic in and of itself because only someone with low Int or Wis would be as reckless as the daredevil is. This means the the daredevil should also have their own version of the fighter's bravery class feature. They already get expert at Will saves at 3rd level, so everything is mostly in place.
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The alternative I suppose could be to just ditch the Daredevil's two Charisma feats, but I think that'd be a shame. For starters, Charisma I think is an appropriate attribute for a Daredevil to have on the side, ...
I agree. Real-life daredevils are performers, so Charisma is natural for that class.
Likewise, I suggested medium armor for daredevils in an earlier post only because it is the standard solution for low-Dexterity martial classes. Some real-life daredevils have protective gear that would qualify as light armor, but none wear medium armor. I would prefer a solution besides medium armor.
Squiggit compared daredevils to monks, who also have opposing pulls between Strength and Dexterity. But monks have 10+CON hit points compared to the daredevil's 8+CON. Monks are expert in all three saving throws while daredevils are expert in only Fortitude and Reflex. Monks have a special Flurry of Blows that fits two unarmed Strikes into one action. Daredevils have a special Daring Stunt that fits movement and a combat maneuver into one action. At 3rd level monks gain a +10-foot status bonus to Speed. A lot of monks' feats are Stances. A lot of daredevils' feats are Press. At 1st level daredevils gain a +10-foot circumstance bonus to all Speeds if the daredevil starts adjacent to a prop. Then we throw in the risk and reward theme on the daredevil, which harms the daredevil on their critical failures. Monks don't have to put up with that. Daredevils are similar to monks, but monks are better.
And a monk's fist is a finesse weapon, so a Dexterity monk has a good chance of hitting during their Flurry of Blows. A Dexterity daredevil has to use Strength-based Athletics checks during their Daring Stunt. A 1st-level unarmored monk with DEX +4 has AC 19. A 1st-level daredevil with DEX +4 in leather armor has AC 18. The Dexterity monk has further advantages over the Dexterity daredevil.
The Strength monk has a weakness that their AC is 15+DEX, so DEX +2 gives them merely AC 17. But Flurry of Blows lets them get in two Strikes and then they can Step away as a defensive action. The Strength daredevil also has AC 15+DEX in studded leather armor, and their feats often require a set up for a Press feat, so unless that Press feat moves them away from their enemy, they don't have the same defensive move as the monk.
Monks' abilities are better and work together better, so the monk can better afford to let their Strength or Dexterity be a little low. The solution, in my humble opinion, is to get the daredevil's abilities polished up and working in harmony so that they can afford the same leeway as the monk.
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So, regarding the armor issue, I think many are focusing too much on the modern context of daredevils, considering only our contemporary world where armors are light in general. I can't see the same problem when translating this to a medieval fantasy world, where this type of daring character can't wear medium armor.
Furthermore, medium armor isn't exactly full plate armor. They are sets typically more focused on protecting internal organs well without excessively hindering overall mobility. Armor like Hide Armor, Scale Mail, Chain Mail, and Breastplate are good examples of armor that offer a good degree of protection, a high weight, but try not to overly restrict mobility.
So, regarding the armor issue, I think many are focusing too much on the modern context of daredevils, considering only our contemporary world where armors are light in general. I can't see the same problem when translating this to a medieval fantasy world, where this type of daring character can't wear medium armor.
Furthermore, medium armor isn't exactly full plate armor. They are sets typically more focused on protecting internal organs well without excessively hindering overall mobility. Armor like Hide Armor, Scale Mail, Chain Mail, and Breastplate are good examples of armor that offer a good degree of protection, a high weight, but try not to overly restrict mobility.
I think this misses the point, which is that the Daredevil's core philosophy appears to be to very much not try too hard to protect themselves. They specifically seek out danger as fast as possible because they're adrenaline junkies, and the bumps and scrapes they pick up along the way are part of the thrill. They're not generally padding themselves up in layers upon layers of thick armor, because that would defeat the entire purpose.
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So, regarding the armor issue, I think many are focusing too much on the modern context of daredevils, considering only our contemporary world where armors are light in general. I can't see the same problem when translating this to a medieval fantasy world, where this type of daring character can't wear medium armor.
Furthermore, medium armor isn't exactly full plate armor. They are sets typically more focused on protecting internal organs well without excessively hindering overall mobility. Armor like Hide Armor, Scale Mail, Chain Mail, and Breastplate are good examples of armor that offer a good degree of protection, a high weight, but try not to overly restrict mobility.
In fact, full plate armor didn't hinder mobility either. If that was the case, nobody would have used it because it woulnd't be wise to go in battle if you can't move properly. Heavy armor being slow is pretty much a D&D-ism that became a popular way to balance their higher AC, not a mechanical representation of how it worked.
Not like I would personally want the DD to use heavy armor, but I think medium armor is perfectly fine. I don't think the "daredevil is reckless" means that they go into battle with their chest exposed, it means they have little to no consideration about their well being and choose the most dangerous option if that one can result in the best outcome. A warrior that doesn't wear armor isn't someone that's reckless, is someone that probably shouldn't be allowed in the battlefield in the first place.
Barbarians are also associated with reckless behaviour and they have access to medium armor. I think its fitting for the daredevil to have it as well.
Ok, so if the Daredevil is dedicated to not trying to protect themselves…what if they got an “AC buff”* until the beginning of their next turn if x, where “x” is: doing something really stupid, or having 8 in both Int and Wis, or still having Adrenaline/having bo Adrenaline; or being attacked more than x times; or wearing no armor, or being a Leshy or Pugfolk or…other ridonkulous situations. Again, I’m just spitballing here and haven’t really looked closely at the extant feats in the playtest…and perhaps if they *do* exist, bake them into the chassis rather than make them level or feat-choice dependant.
* And by “AC buff” I’m not thinking strictly a numerical +2/upgrade to UTEML, but perhaps something else, perhaps a save against an attack above and beyond an AC test….or…something that perhaps interacts with Adrenaline. I’ve said before that I agree with folks saying Adrenaline could be easily stripped out of the class as it can be clunky with the action economy, but if it *is* kept then using it defensively could be helpful for MAD/Str builds.
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So, regarding the armor issue, I think many are focusing too much on the modern context of daredevils, considering only our contemporary world where armors are light in general. I can't see the same problem when translating this to a medieval fantasy world, where this type of daring character can't wear medium armor.
I actually made a 3.5e class based exactly around a real life example of such - the Rodelero, a heavy armour class focused on Tumble Through to people to sneak attack them. It's... not quite what the playtest daredevil is, more of a 2e swashbuckler mechanically that only cares about acrobatics, but it's important to note that 'heavy armour person rolling up under some enemies with too much reach so they can shank them' is in fact a RL guy from exactly the period D&D and PF are primarily based on.
Yep, I think I said this during the Exemplar playtest - having played football (“soccer”) with a huge fellow who was both tall, heavy and super built who could dance and twinkle-toe around like a nimble acrobat; and having a lot of interest in beefy armored characters smashing foes’ heads into posts, bending them over railings and belting them over and with and each other, the “lighty armored, acrobatic” daredevil is NOT the only option.
There could just as easily be a cumulative “Momentum” mechanic for mobile, heavy armored, environment-conversant smashers as there is Adrenaline for the current iteration of the Daredevil.
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Yep, I think I said this during the Exemplar playtest - having played football (“soccer”) with a huge fellow who was both tall, heavy and super built who could dance and twinkle-toe around like a nimble acrobat; and having a lot of interest in beefy armored characters smashing foes’ heads into posts, bending them over railings and belting them over and with and each other, the “lighty armored, acrobatic” daredevil is NOT the only option.
There could just as easily be a cumulative “Momentum” mechanic for mobile, heavy armored, environment-conversant smashers as there is Adrenaline for the current iteration of the Daredevil.
The Adrenaline mechanic does not suit the daredevil. It forces the daredevil player to engage in Risky actions in order to enable other actions rather than delighting in the risk.
I think that Adrenaline should be saved for an Athlete class, which would better fit the association football ("soccer" is short for association) player that OceanshieldwolPF describes.
I feel there's a degree of wishful thinking going on here, where arguments from verisimilitude are being used to effectively eliminate the established differences between types of armor in Pathfinder. For starters, the claims are false: full plate very much did restrict mobility and was exhausting to wear, which was a key factor in certain historical battles such as Agincourt. Coupled with the development of ranged weaponry powerful enough to pierce most armor, this led to heavier armor being phased out over time. Second: even if we were to assume that full plate didn't restrict mobility at all in real life, that is separate from how it is conceptualized in Pathfinder as exceedingly heavy (which it was) and intended to sacrifice mobility for increased protection. We can talk about a full armor maneuver class all we like, but that's ostensibly not what the Daredevil is designed to be.
The other issue here is I think some of us are missing the forest for the trees: sure, we could certainly propose to solve the Daredevil's attribute dependency by pushing them towards heavy armor, which I think would happen even just by giving them medium armor proficiency, but the end result of that is that the best way to play this agile, acrobatic class would be to cover them in full plate and give them no Dexterity at all. That I'd say would be a pretty serious thematic fail. This is also why I'm not a huge fan of lines of thinking that try to pigeonhole the Daredevil exclusively into Strength or Dex: both I think are essential components to the class. It makes sense in my opinion for this fast-moving brawler to have both the Dexterity to pull off acrobatic stunts and the Strength to move enemies around, it's not an either-or situation.
I do think exequiel759 made a good point however that one attribute that doesn't make much sense on the class is Wisdom: although the attribute refers more to senses than the quality of being wise, even in that respect it's a stat that probably doesn't need to be a big deal on the Daredevil. The problem is mostly that everyone wants Wisdom, because Wisdom influences a large number of incredibly important statistics. Although I'm not a fan of attribute swaps in general, perhaps it could be worth doing something in that respect to let the Daredevil dump Wisdom without tanking their defenses and initiative by default, something Opening Gambit could help with.
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I do think, as a person who made a rodelero class and thus put a lot of thinking into what 'rolling around' even means, that once again it comes down to - 'who is the daredevil representing'? Which, once you take away the people who are more swashbucklers, is some combination of 'modern-day superheroes' and 'nobody'. Which is not to say the time period Golarion is set in doesn't have people tumbling through enemy ranks and disrupting formations with shoves! They're just, generously, medium armour at minimum because it turns out if your goal in life is to roll through a pike wall you better make sure you don't bleed that easily.
Of course, most people have never heard of the rodelero because, well... it's not a great strategy. Inasmuch as maneuvers are used in RL warfare, it's to keep people in one place (mostly by, well, armoured knights who have dropped their weapons to give you a big hug and knee you in the groin), not move around all over, and the conceptual space for that moving around is covered by the swashbuckler (who's setting up for the perfect shot) and the monk (who does that while punching you).
That said, this piece of feedback is likely not going to make it through, so you're probably right that we have to accept the designers really like Daredevil and Robin and work with the class fantasy they gave us, not the one we want.
There is not a single real-life combatant that fights like the Daredevil. Actual real-life rodeleros were known for wielding shields and having poor reach, only one of which I think describes the Daredevil. I really don't think verisimilitude is the yardstick to measure this class with, because any regular person who'd try to fight like a Daredevil would likely not last very long. That is in fact, I'd argue, the point. This class fights in such a way that they brush with death constantly, often in ways that are entirely unnecessary but certainly thrilling, so trying to rationalize away this risk-taking in my opinion is to miss the most basic aspect of this class's fantasy. They don't need heavier armor, just as I don't think they need to focus overmuch on reducing their own risk. More broadly, I feel part of the discussions being had around the Daredevil are being seriously marred by excessive amounts of risk aversion, which is perhaps natural for us to have as players but again, misses the point of the class.
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While I find it odd that you bring up the lack of real-world instances while also saying verisimilitude is not a useful yardstick I do agree that “giving the Daredevil heavy armor” isn’t the design path to follow. Or reducing their own risk when risk is apparently the point.
I’m merely advocating for a heavier-armored option, that *doesn’t* need verisimilitude/real-world analogues (the giant soccer playing fellow I played with was clearly *not* wearing half- or even full-plate but could definitely move!) and also not for shoring up defense, though that would, of course necessarily follow. It was merely an option I felt was missing.
I can also see that if you are trying to determine “fixes/options” for a Dex Daredevil such discussions might be muddying the water.
I still think there might be something to at least mitigate the risk if the Daredevil really pushes the envelope into peak stupid. As folks have said elsewhere…where *is* the reward? Is it just in the base damage? Is it in the action compression? Is there anything the Daredevil does in terms of being a repositioner or “battlefield controller” that although it might cause great harm/risk to themselves that it sets up the rest of the party or greatly inconveniences/creates inimical situations for the foes? Beyond shoves and trips. And how does Dex fit in to any of that? That’s what I’m trying to see. (I’d really like to see more emphasis on the use of the environmental props to get them - and by them I mean the props themselves - to do “more” - in a non-strictly damage and more tactical/ controller aspect- but again that might not have anything to do with Str/Dex discrepancies.)
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I do think exequiel759 made a good point however that one attribute that doesn't make much sense on the class is Wisdom: although the attribute refers more to senses than the quality of being wise, even in that respect it's a stat that probably doesn't need to be a big deal on the Daredevil. The problem is mostly that everyone wants Wisdom, because Wisdom influences a large number of incredibly important statistics. Although I'm not a fan of attribute swaps in general, perhaps it could be worth doing something in that respect to let the Daredevil dump Wisdom without tanking their defenses and initiative by default, something Opening Gambit could help with.
I totally agree that Wisdom (at least by being “dumped” as is likely due to MAD) is a problem. But Opening Gambit currently sits as a *choice* at level 2. It isn’t even a very good one. It is narratively poorly written (perform a non-descript, minor stunt) and still needs a skill test to succeed.
If Opening Gambit was a baked in class feature at first level that set up the momentum for the combat (and removed Adrenaline!) while also shoring up a low Wisdom that would be great. I guess it would be like a more active Stance? I do think Opening Gambit *should* be helping. Just not as a feat choice, and not at 2nd level.
I could even see a bunch of Opening Gambits, each with a style….uh oh….oops, subclasses….ummm monks…. never mind…. ;p
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Back to Unicore's initial post: I think the simplest patch (and the most likely change Paizo will make) is just to allow daredevils to use dexterity for athletics. This:
- Allows daring stunt to work cleanly for the dex daredevil
- Allows the various athletics feats to work for characters focusing on either attribute
- Retains a defense/offense pivot in the class for low levels by letting you get a bit more AC with dex and a bit more damage with strength. You'll still want both stats, but high strength won't feel quite as mandatory.
- Doesn't require overhauling the class
If I'm totally honest, Dex to Athletics is the easiest solution here. The class clearly flavors Athletics over Acrobatics, since the only thing that uses Acrobatics in the class are a few of its class feats. Everything else in the class works with Athletics or uses Strength, so Dex to Athletics and replace every instance of an Acrobatics check to an Athletics check instead its the most simple and easy solution here.
We could do “If you choose Dex as your KAS, you can use your Dexterity modifier to determine your Athletics modifier. If you choose Str as your KAS, you can use your Strength modifier to determine your Acrobatics modifier” too but I feel the end result is going to be mostly the same anyways.
The most useful aspects of Acrobatics which DDs need, which are Tumble Through and Kip-Up, could be granted through feats instead. I could totally see a Raging Intimidation-like feat that allows you to use Athletics for Tumble Through at 1st level, that later allows you to select Kip-Up using your Athletics for the prerequisites. You can't really do the same for Acrobatics since it pretty much needs every action from Athletics to be baked into it, while Athletics only really needs Tumble Through.
This also avoids giving them auto-scaling on two skills, which right now is something the class desperately needs.
While I find it odd that you bring up the lack of real-world instances while also saying verisimilitude is not a useful yardstick I do agree that “giving the Daredevil heavy armor” isn’t the design path to follow. Or reducing their own risk when risk is apparently the point.
The point I want to stress is that verisimilitude is a terrible rationale to use here, not just because it is an especially poor fit for this class but also because our collective idea of what’s realistic is flat-out wrong. If heavy armor builds work on the Daredevil, that’s totally fine, but I think it would be a problem if it were pushed to be the default as would happen with some suggestions, as it’s not what the class is about. Trying to project our own risk aversion onto the least risk-averse class in the game I don’t think leads to very sensible conclusions.
If Opening Gambit was a baked in class feature at first level that set up the momentum for the combat (and removed Adrenaline!) while also shoring up a low Wisdom that would be great. I guess it would be like a more active Stance? I do think Opening Gambit *should* be helping. Just not as a feat choice, and not at 2nd level.
I agree, I think if we want to disincentivize Wisdom on the class, then baking current options like Opening Gambit into the class’s features would help a lot.
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While I find it odd that you bring up the lack of real-world instances while also saying verisimilitude is not a useful yardstick I do agree that “giving the Daredevil heavy armor” isn’t the design path to follow. Or reducing their own risk when risk is apparently the point.The point I want to stress is that verisimilitude is a terrible rationale to use here, not just because it is an especially poor fit for this class but also because our collective idea of what’s realistic is flat-out wrong. If heavy armor builds work on the Daredevil, that’s totally fine, but I think it would be a problem if it were pushed to be the default as would happen with some suggestions, as it’s not what the class is about. Trying to project our own risk aversion onto the least risk-averse class in the game I don’t think leads to very sensible conclusions.
I like verisimilitude, especially as a GM building plausibility into my settings. However, I do admit that it is not necessary for a fantasy roleplaying class. More important is marketability.
The original Dungeons & Dragons monk class was inspired by Bruce Lee's martial arts movies and a TV show called Kung Fu. The PF1 kineticist class was inspired by a cartoon drama called Avatar: The Last Airbender. A class accurately reflecting its inspiration makes players more excited about playing it.
The famous daredevil escape artist Harry Houdini died long before I was born. The daredevil motorcycle stunt driver Evel Knievel was active during my childhood in the 1960s, but he is old news, too. I know of no modern inspirations for a daredevil class. An Internet search for modern daredevils gave BASE jumpers, tightrope walkers, and mountain climbers whom I had not heard of, and survivalist Bear Grylis, whom I have seen on television but is not what I think of as a daredevil. Therefore, I presume no modern inspiration led to this class. Paizo might be inventing it solely because they think the playstyle will fill a desired niche and are using old inspirations only as a starting point.
A playstyle niche requires market analysis to pin down properly. The surveys that we playtesters fill out will determine the future of the daredevil. I know that my survey will report that I want to drop the adrenaline mechanic and want to see the prop mechanic properly expanded into usefulness.
Or maybe they have other material planned for Risks & Rewards and want a class that highlights using that material.
If I'm totally honest, Dex to Athletics is the easiest solution here. The class clearly flavors Athletics over Acrobatics, since the only thing that uses Acrobatics in the class are a few of its class feats. Everything else in the class works with Athletics or uses Strength, so Dex to Athletics and replace every instance of an Acrobatics check to an Athletics check instead its the most simple and easy solution here.
We could do “If you choose Dex as your KAS, you can use your Dexterity modifier to determine your Athletics modifier. If you choose Str as your KAS, you can use your Strength modifier to determine your Acrobatics modifier” too but I feel the end result is going to be mostly the same anyways.
The most useful aspects of Acrobatics which DDs need, which are Tumble Through and Kip-Up, could be granted through feats instead. I could totally see a Raging Intimidation-like feat that allows you to use Athletics for Tumble Through at 1st level, that later allows you to select Kip-Up using your Athletics for the prerequisites. You can't really do the same for Acrobatics since it pretty much needs every action from Athletics to be baked into it, while Athletics only really needs Tumble Through.
This also avoids giving them auto-scaling on two skills, which right now is something the class desperately needs.
Why have a dexterity option if it is going to require subbing in a different skill or attribute to se the primary skill of the class? If alternatives to tumble through and standing up from prone using athletics are already available in class, it feels like there really is no purpose to choosing dexterity.
Why have a dexterity option if it is going to require subbing in a different skill or attribute to se the primary skill of the class? If alternatives to tumble through and standing up from prone using athletics are already available in class, it feels like there really is no purpose to choosing dexterity.If I'm totally honest, Dex to Athletics is the easiest solution here. The class clearly flavors Athletics over Acrobatics, since the only thing that uses Acrobatics in the class are a few of its class feats. Everything else in the class works with Athletics or uses Strength, so Dex to Athletics and replace every instance of an Acrobatics check to an Athletics check instead its the most simple and easy solution here.
We could do “If you choose Dex as your KAS, you can use your Dexterity modifier to determine your Athletics modifier. If you choose Str as your KAS, you can use your Strength modifier to determine your Acrobatics modifier” too but I feel the end result is going to be mostly the same anyways.
The most useful aspects of Acrobatics which DDs need, which are Tumble Through and Kip-Up, could be granted through feats instead. I could totally see a Raging Intimidation-like feat that allows you to use Athletics for Tumble Through at 1st level, that later allows you to select Kip-Up using your Athletics for the prerequisites. You can't really do the same for Acrobatics since it pretty much needs every action from Athletics to be baked into it, while Athletics only really needs Tumble Through.
This also avoids giving them auto-scaling on two skills, which right now is something the class desperately needs.
Because I'm proposing for Athletics to be used with Dexterity instead of Strength if you want your KAS to be Dex.
Its easier to add medium armor proficency and Tumble Through/Kip-Up (and possibly other actions, not only from Acrobatics) into feats than adding Grapple, Reposition, Shove, Swim, Trip, and Disarm to Acrobatics, and likely Climb, High Jump, Long Jump, and Swim too since the DD leans heavily into mobility.
This helps with the MADness of the class and keeps things a bit more simple, because otherwise the class needs to have auto-scaling on both Athletics and Acrobatics and a class feature that should allow you to use Athletics with Dex or Acrobatics with Str based on your KAS. Defaulting to Athletics but allowing it to be used with Dex its both better for page space (which is more important for Paizo than people think) and for the class' power budget.
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Paizo might be inventing it solely because they think the playstyle will fill a desired niche and are using old inspirations only as a starting point.
Interestingly, the new DnD 5.5 “roadmap for 2026” talks of a new class called the….Pugilist; and Matt Colville’s Draw Steel game features a combat system heavy on pushing and shoving foes. In this review of the Draw Steel starter kit, at 14:20 on the timer, the reviewer talks about this in depth. Feels a lot like what the Daredevil leans into.
A playstyle niche requires market analysis to pin down properly. The surveys that we playtesters fill out will determine the future of the daredevil. I know that my survey will report that I want to drop the adrenaline mechanic and want to see the prop mechanic properly expanded into usefulness.
Yep, Teridax has done some great work in his playtest reviews explaining the action tax of Adrenaline. I think it needs work. And I have spoken elsewhere about expanding the “prop system” to be completely class agnostic and open to all combatants to make combat more interesting. Then I watched the Draw Steel review…
Or maybe they have other material planned for Risks & Rewards and want a class that highlights using that material.
Perhaps like a fully fleshed iut prop and cinematic combat system…. ;p