My group is now in the middle of a debate over a PC character who picked Drider as their race.
Without getting to heavy into the debate one side is claiming the Drider gets another +2 to str for a total of +4 to str, because they are large, stating that large creatures get a +2 to str and -2 dex. while one side is saying what is shown is what the final balanced version is. so im asking those who are better equipped to explain why the final ability modifier total or what players get is what it is.
It looks like they follow the race building rules from the book and spend points on different aspects. In this case they spent 7 RP on being large and 4 RP on a +2 strength. Since the large racial quality also comes with +2 strength that would be a total of +4 strength. Keep in mind large also comes with a -2 DEX so they would be net +0 DEX. There are some other aspects too like -1 AC and -1 Atk. You should read the rules for large creatures in the race building rules to make sure you dont miss anything there.
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Did they pick a Drider using the "Monsters as PCs" section in the Bestiary, or are they looking at the one on page 221 of the Advanced Race Guide using the Race Builder rules?
If they are using the Bestiary the stats are what the stats are. All the modifications (including size) are already in the stat block.
If they are using ARG, the modifiers for being large are separate from the bonuses they got by spending RP on Flexible Ability Scores and Ability Score Racial Traits. They need to add them all up including the Large modifiers.
They are suppose be picking the base PC race. They aren't building the race.
if you've gone beyond that you are in home game territorydrider CE Large aberration CR 7 monster
as they are transformed drow (not a noble as they're a failed/punished drow)
Drow race= = = (added)
Monsters as PCs, Bestiary
Race Builder, ARG
first link didn't go anywhere
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They are suppose be picking the base PC race. They aren't building the race.
Well, here's your problem: There is no 'official' Drider base PC race option.
I am seeing a third-party Drider Bestiary Template but templates are not really intended for PCs.
EDIT: There was a Drider option published in D&D3.0's Savage Species volume, which made it into a 10 level 'class' to balance it out.
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They are suppose be picking the base PC race. They aren't building the race.
Have them pick one of the races from the link Azothatath posted. https://www.aonprd.com/Races.aspx
Those are the ones that are intended for PC use. Those in the "Core races" are the easiest to deal with. "Other races" can be complex. Any creature that isn't in either of those tabs is a "Monster" and isn't built to be a player-controlled race at all. While some GMs do set up campaigns with Monster PCs, they can be extremely disruptive and of highly variable power levels.
The ARG has an example write up for driders, https://legacy.aonprd.com/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder/exampleRaces.html#o ther-race-examples
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The ARG has an example write up for driders, https://legacy.aonprd.com/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder/exampleRaces.html#o ther-race-examples
Type: Aberration 3rp
Size: Large 7rp (+2 size bonus to Strength and a –2 size penalty to Dexterity)
Base Speed: Normal 0rp
Ability Score Modifiers: Flexible (+2 Con, +2 Wis) 2rp
Languages: Standard 0rp
Racial Traits:
Ability Score Racial Traits
Advanced Constitution (+2) 4rp
Advanced Dexterity (+2) 4rp
Advanced Strength (+2) 4rp
Defense Racial Traits
Greater spell resistance 3rp
Natural armor 2rp
Movement Racial Traits
Climb 2rp
Senses Racial Traits
Darkvision 60 ft. —rp
Other Racial Traits
Quadruped (8 legs) 4rp
Total: 35rp
By my count, this version should end up as: Str +4, Con +4, Wis +2 on a species that is pushing up on a +3 level APL adjustment (at low level at least)
Okay, but here's my argument, and please correct me if im wrong. Pouring over the Errata for the ARG, there is no correction to the Drider as a PC race example when it comes to the listed ability scores, and I don't believe that was accidental. I think that they intentionally omitted the size bonus to str and the penalty to dex, to balance out the concept race.
Nextly, I forgot which page, but I remember them talking about how the RP system isn't a complete or flawless science, and that some things are rounded or undercut to balance out race concepts in their final version
Lastly, the bestiary version of the monster, if you were to take its modifiers and traits from there directly, is much more powerful than the PC version, and thus, the +4 str is warranted and makes sense in conjunction with everything else.
But ultimately at the end of the day, I recognize that it's just an example of a PC version of a monster, and thus, there is no official version of the race, just a conceptual version that could be used in play.
The ARG Race Builder is clear in the first two paragraphs. It's for GMs or players with GM oversight to create races.
The examples show you what the system can do, it's not a RAW PC race.
So your premise is flawed, Driders are not official or even standard PC races.The Race Builder can create Home Game PC races or even use the example. APL or ECL is a thing to balance the powerful races out trading levels for race powers. The monster Drow at CR 7 is about 6 levels worth of experience (-1 due to low value equip).
d20pfsrd has Drider 35 RP . It would seem to be Lvl= (RP -8)^0.5 pts or so with the low end (1-2)Lvls needing consideration/adjustment.For an analogy - I could follow the Magic Item Creation Table and make things I could claim are RAW but many GMs would sputter. The GM oversight & review is critical to the Home Game process.
= = = ADVICE
Since you are in a high power game, the GM should assign everyone N Levels to play with choosing CR N to N+1 monsters or X number of Race Points. He'll need an unused Lvl & RP to ability score bonuses rule, or use the RP ones to make up the difference for people that didn't use all their points.
d20pfsrd also lists RP for various races.
I don't think you understand my stance on this, i stand with the GM who already ruled the Driders do not get the +2 str bonus from larger size or the -2 to dex. and that the stat block given is intentional. It was the pc who is using the race that is arguing otherwise and trying to get support for his belief. Also, this is a very high-powered campaign with factors I haven't revealed. People's race choices have already been balanced out by the GM, case in point im a actual monster a dragon who has been put through considerable restraints, size locked to medium, and no racial modifiers to boot, as well as being locked out of the Gestalt rules other pc have access to.Yet I still accepted those rules so of course i'd want others to follow similar restraints and follow the GM's decision, hence the creation of this thread. Not sure why you immediately assumed what you did but yeah here are.
while one side is saying what is shown is what the final balanced version is.
Where is this shown? Where is the sum of a Drider's ability score modifiers given? I see no such thing!
All I see is the entry in the ARG, but this one does not give the total ability score modifiers, it only lists the race builder options picked for the example of a Drider they created. If you want to use it, you need 6to follow the rules of each individual entry, and for Large, this includes the size modifiers.
Going by the ARC thingy, the total ability score modifiers including size are +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Wis. There is no ambiguity, only wishful thinking. If you want to use the ARG entry as definitive rules, the character does get the size modifiers on top of the racial modifiers.
And yes, this is not a balanced PC race. None of the large sized ones are.
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i stand with the GM who already ruled the Driders do not get the +2 str bonus from larger size or the -2 to dex. and that the stat block given is intentional.
Can you give us a Book and Page number, or at least a link, to the "stat block" you refer to?
The Advanced Race Guide doesn't have a Drider stat block, just a list of the qualities that make up the race. You MUST do every stat modification that every quality says to do. Listed below:
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Large- +2 STR, -2 Dex, -1 to AC, -1 to attack rolls, +1 to combat maneuver checks and CMD, -4 to Stealth checks
Flexible Ability Score Modifiers- +2 Con, +2 Wis
Advanced Constitution- +2 Con
Advanced Dexterity- +2 Dex
Advanced Strength- +2 Str
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Total Modifiers:
+4 Str
+4 Con
+2 Wis
-1 AC
-1 to attack rolls
+1 to combat maneuver checks
+1 to CMD
-4 to Stealth checks
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I don't think you understand my stance on this, i stand with the GM who already ruled the Driders do not get the +2 str bonus from larger size or the -2 to dex. and that the stat block given is intentional. It was the pc who is using the race that is arguing otherwise and trying to get support for his belief. Also, this is a very high-powered campaign with factors I haven't revealed. People's race choices have already been balanced out by the GM, case in point im a actual monster a dragon who has been put through considerable restraints, size locked to medium, and no racial modifiers to boot, as well as being locked out of the Gestalt rules...The ARG Race Builder is clear in the first two paragraphs. It's for GMs or players with GM oversight to create races.
The examples show you what the system can do, it's not a RAW PC race.
So your premise is flawed, Driders are not official or even standard PC races.The Race Builder can create Home Game PC races or even use the example. APL or ECL is a thing to balance the powerful races out trading levels for race powers. The monster Drow at CR 7 is about 6 levels worth of experience (-1 due to low value equip).
d20pfsrd has Drider 35 RP . It would seem to be Lvl= (RP -8)^0.5 pts or so with the low end (1-2)Lvls needing consideration/adjustment.For an analogy - I could follow the Magic Item Creation Table and make things I could claim are RAW but many GMs would sputter. The GM oversight & review is critical to the Home Game process.
= = = ADVICE
Since you are in a high power game, the GM should assign everyone N Levels to play with choosing CR N to N+1 monsters or X number of Race Points. He'll need an unused Lvl & RP to ability score bonuses rule, or use the RP ones to make up the difference for people that didn't use all their points.
d20pfsrd also lists RP for various races.
As printed, the Drider PC gets the Large size (which costs it 20% of its RP) and all associated benefits/drawbacks.
Source
Advanced Race Guide pg. 218
Large (7 RP): Prerequisite: Humanoids taking this quality must have the giant subtype; Benefit: Large creatures gain a +2 size bonus to Strength and a –2 size penalty to Dexterity. Large races take a –1 size penalty to their AC, a –1 size penalty on attack rolls, a +1 bonus on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a –4 size penalty on Stealth checks. A Large creature takes up a space that is 10 feet by 10 feet and has a reach of 5 feet.
Medium (0 RP): Medium races have no bonuses or penalties due to their size. A Medium creature has a space of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet.
Small (0 RP): Small races gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks. Small races have a space of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet.
Tiny (4 RP): Prerequisites: Aberration, construct, dragon, fey, outsider (native), or plant type; Benefit: Tiny creatures gain a +2 size bonus to Dexterity and a –2 size penalty to Strength. Tiny races gain a +2 size bonus to their AC, a +2 size bonus on attack rolls, a –2 penalty on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD, and a +8 size bonus on Stealth checks. Tiny characters take up a space of 2-1/2 feet by 2-1/2 feet, so up to four of these characters can fit into a single square. Tiny races typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack it in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. Other creatures can move through those squares without provoking attacks of opportunity. Tiny creatures typically cannot flank an enemy.
The GM is free to use a homebrew version of the Drider without these attribute adjustments, but you are outside of any official rules at this point...
You all know exactly where the Drider is listed on page 221 of the ARG. Your arguments seem to stem from the "Large" creature trait; therefore, you must have +x -y. Except within the book, there are examples in which it doesn't always follow that. You're also under the assumption that it's just some error that hasn't been corrected, despite people having brought it up before, after how many years now? since 2023, according to my search estimates.
Is it possible they forgot to fix it, but to have several examples of large creatures who gain the +2 str, and the -2 dex, some that don't? They don't seem like an accident; that seems like a balancing omission.
Lets looks at another example of the same thing, which proves my point.
Trox, as shown in the Bestiary 4, which came out after the ARG. shows the Trox as a character is +6 Str, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 Cha. Large Monstrous Humanoid.
I seem to notice that they don't have the -2 Dex or the +2 Str inherent to the large size. Or it already factors into the finalized version of the race.
Looking at the RP of the ARG right now, page 234, it doesn't show the Str or Dex mod for large either, but unlike the Drider, we do have a published final race write-up for the Trox in the bestiary 4, and wow, big surprise they don't get the size bonus to Str or penalty to Dex either. They make mention of the other benefits and drawbacks of large size, though right below the stat block in the bestiary.
I think the bonus to stats are only for when the creature changes size. Not all races have the same build or muscle structure. You may have a race large race does is slender without a lot of muscle that cannot exert the same leverage that most creatures of its size can. You could also have a small creature with highly efficient muscles that is stronger than other of its size. Orang-Pendak is an example of a small creature with a STR bonus. Almost every other small race has a penalty to STR.
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Here's the thing to keep in mind: The Race Builder is just not good. Basically, no one uses it because it doesn't work very well at all, and the game is generally better if you pretend it just doesn't exist.
The 'race builder' examples in the ARG are never going to get an errata because they are just examples of how this system can be used: They are not official PC races, and they don't necessarily bear any resemblance to any official PC race published at a later date.
As published, the ARG Drider PC is Str +4, Con +4, Wis +2. You can certainly not like it, but it is what it is. If the GM wants to change it, that is well within their authority, but that doesn't make the ARG version 'wrong' (or 'right' for that matter) in any way.
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You all know exactly where the Drider is listed on page 221 of the ARG. Your arguments seem to stem from the "Large" creature trait; therefore, you must have +x -y. Except within the book, there are examples in which it doesn't always follow that. You're also under the assumption that it's just some error that hasn't been corrected, despite people having brought it up before, after how many years now? since 2023, according to my search estimates.
No one is assuming an error with the Drider except you. We are all saying "do what the qualities (including size) say they do."
There is no published "Drider Character" statblock! This is why no one is taking your side. You are starting from an assumption that Large is "already included" in the statblock, but there is no statblock. They only way to get one is to step through the ARG qualities one by one. Do what Greater Spell Resistance says to do. Do what Flexible Ability Score Modifiers says to do. And do what Large size says to do.
Is it possible they forgot to fix it, but to have several examples of large creatures who gain the +2 str, and the -2 dex, some that don't? They don't seem like an accident; that seems like a balancing omission.
Lets looks at another example of the same thing, which proves my point.
Trox, as shown in the Bestiary 4, which came out after the ARG. shows the Trox as a character is +6 Str, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 Cha. Large Monstrous Humanoid.
I seem to notice that they don't have the -2 Dex or the +2 Str inherent to the large size. Or it already factors into the finalized version of the race.
Looking at the RP of the ARG right now, page 234, it doesn't show the Str or Dex mod for large either, but unlike the Drider, we do have a published final race write-up for the Trox in the bestiary 4, and wow, big surprise they don't get the size bonus to Str or penalty to Dex either. They make mention of the other benefits and drawbacks of large size, though right below the stat block in the bestiary.
Is this the "error" you are referring to? Yep, you are correct, the statblock in B4 is not what would be produced with the ARG qualities. But the Trox is literally the only example of a statblock for a large character. Of course I could argue that there's a much simpler explanation than that the Large quality doesn't do what the Large quality says it does - that the ARG Trox is supposed to have Advanced Dexterity instead of Advanced Strength.
Even if there is an error, there haven't been any FAQ updates/errata for PF1 since early 2018. We aren't going to get errata.
Let me ask you a question: Where do you think the size modifiers for being large would appear in the Drider entry on pg. 221 of the ARG? All the ability score modifiers are listed next to the race builder option that grants them. None of the Options have any unnecessary text, so where are those +2 STR and -2 Dex supposed to be listed?
Since there is no summary of ability score modifiers, there literally is no place in this 'race entry' where the size bonuses even could appear.
What is the Drider's Natural Armor bonus? What's it's Spell Resistance? Neither have a value given in the 'race entry'. Do you also claim they were omitted for balance reasons? Or do you admit that you have to follow the instructions of the race builder option given?
You're also under the assumption that it's just some error that hasn't been corrected
The only person assuming anything here is you. Also, the only time books get "corrections" is when they're reprinted, and ARG never had a second print run.
Trox, as shown in the Bestiary 4, which came out after the ARG. shows the Trox as a character is +6 Str, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 Cha. Large Monstrous Humanoid.
Unlike the race builder entries, in this style of race entry there is no telling where the stat modifiers come from, so how do you know it doesn't have a racial +2 dex (to equal out the size penalty)? How do you know the +6 Str is all racial and doesn't include the size modifier? You don't, you're making baseless assumptions at best and try to compare utterly incomparable things (differently templated race entries) at worst.
Damn, should have checked instead of trusting my PDFs. Thanks for the correction!
Also, the only time books get "corrections" is when they're reprinted, and ARG never had a second print run.ARG did get a second printing, in August 2015.
But I agree with all your other points.
also, the online AON is the definitive edition - any corrections would be made there