Are there any actual guidelines for how this works, when trying to cast two spells simultaneously? Specifically trying to overlap actions to prevent counterspelling. I know damage and distractions can force concentration checks, but if you willingly begin casting a spell, while in the middle of already casting one, what happens to the first spell?
Example:
1). NPC Wizard readies an action to counterspell.
2). Sorcerer PC casts Fireball.
3). NPC Wizard attempts to counterspell.
4). Sorcerer PC quickens a Dispel Magic to counter NPC wizard's readied action.
Most swift action spells I've seen are used to enhance a yet to be used standard action, but they don't actually step on each other; since you would have to interrupt your own V,S,M components and try to cast two spells at the same time.
So in the above example, does casting the Dispel Magic as a swift action cause the Sorcerer to interrupt their own Fireball and lose the spell?
unless you have a feat or action or something that allow you (like a readied action) you can not interrupt some1 else's action. so the npc wizard who took a ready action get to try and counter-spell the Sorcerer , but the Sorcerer won't get any action, not even a quicken action to counter that counter. (and if he had any feat allowing this it would have probably be an immediate action).
so action #4 is illegal. the ready action happen in response to his casting and unless he has something special that allow it, he doesn't get to respond until after the counter spell attempt is resolved.
unless you have a feat or action or something that allow you (like a readied action) you can not interrupt some1 else's action. so the npc wizard who took a ready action get to try and counter-spell the Sorcerer , but the Sorcerer won't get any action, not even a quicken action to counter that counter. (and if he had any feat allowing this it would have probably be an immediate action).
so action #4 is illegal. the ready action happen in response to his casting and unless he has something special that allow it, he doesn't get to respond until after the counter spell attempt is resolved.
If you would, please explain how it would be considered illegal. The Sorcerer PC has the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which allows him to cast an additional spell as swift action. Unless I'm missing something, this should allow him to respond to the readied action and attempt a counterspell of his own.
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From the ready action rules:
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
1- The sorcerer casting triggers the wizard’s readied action (counterspell).
This interrupts the sorcerers action.
2 - The wizard tries to counterspell.
3 - AFTER this, the sorcerer can (depending on the result of the wizards counterspell) continue his action.
Quicken allows you to cast a spell as a swift action, therefore using your standard action for something else. It doesn't change anything about order of operation regarding readied actions.
Maybe you mixed up swift action and immediate action (the later one could in theory "interupt" the wizards readied action).
Let me just highlight the main part from Toshy's nice post:
"he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
-Until the readied action is done, unless the triggering person have a special ability etc, he can't act.
to help it make sense. the counterspelling wizard's turn was before the sorcerer's turn. and he took a very special initiative altering action to allow him to continue his act at the sorcerer's turn. so we stop the sorcerer's turn, let the wizard continue his earlier stopped turn, and only then continue the sorcerer's turn.
so unless the sorcerer has an ability or item or what-not that let him cast a quicken spell out of turn, he wait for his turn to resume.
(very special initiative altering action - from the next turn the wizard initiative change to just before the sorcerer's, no matter what it was up to now and who else act in the turn order.)
Apparently my brain is too focused on equating this to a chain or stack from YGO or Magic, respectively. So the outcome is dependent on whether the actions taken are readied or immediate? Readied actions are locked in and protected by special turn initiative.
Different scenario.
If the Sorcerer tried to cast a spell that designates the Wizard as a target, and the Wizard responds with an immediate action to either retreat behind, or create, cover to block line of sight/effect, would the Sorcerer lose their targeted spell?
Likewise, can the Sorcerer cast a quickened spell in response to this immediate action from the Wizard? From what I have read, swift actions operate on the same timer as immediate, and the only restriction is they can only be performed on the player's turn. Which leads back to my original inquiry. Can a player interrupt their own spell to start casting another one?
Scenario 2: What is the outcome if the Wizard readied in preparation to move/cover when the spell is being cast? Does the Sorcerer still lose the spell? Or get to select a new target and continue casting?
If the wizard takes some kind of action (readied or immediate) as a result of the sorcerer casting the spell, the sorcerer is locked into using that spell, but does not have to select targets until the spell casting is completed. So if the wizard ducks out of sight (or otherwise becomes an invalid target) the sorcerer can aim the spell at the wizards fighter friend or any other target that is within range and otherwise a valid target of the spell.
Note that some kinds of immediate actions can be used as a result of being targted by an attack or spell - those immediate actions would effectively negate the sorcerers spell as the immediate action does not come into play until after the wizard has been selected as a target.
As for the using a quickened spell while another spell is already in the process of being cast, the rules do not define what happens in this scenario. Personally I would rule that if they use their quickened spell they automatically lose the first spell they were casting. My reasoning is thus:
Some spells have a duration of concentration.
The rules state that casting a new spell automatically causes the spell with a duration of concentation to end.
Given that, I would submit that the process of casting a spell is much like concentrating on a spell (but no official ruling for it), and thus you cannot be casting two spells at the same time - pick one spell to keep and lose the other one that you are no longer concentrating on.
The thing you are not factoring in is that other than immediate actions all actions must take place on your turn. The Ready action allows to take a single standard, move or swift action when the triggering event occurs. It does not allow you to take any other action besides the readied action unless those actions are part of the readied action.
Casting a quickened spell is a swift action, so it can only be done on your turn unless it is done as a readied action. Since reading an action is a standard action a character cannot cast a spell and ready an action in the same turn unless that spell does not take a standard action to cast. You also cannot use an immediate action and a swift action in the same turn.
So, if the spell takes a standard action to cast you cannot ready an action in the same turn you cast the spell. If the spell uses a swift or immediate action to cast you could ready an action, but you could not cast a quickened spell because you already used your immediate/swift action for the turn to cast the spell. Very few spells take an immediate action to cast but those could be cast after a readied action assuming you have not used your swift/immediate action for the turn. Counter spell always uses a readied action.
Looking at your original example, the sorcerer is already casting a spell, which means he cannot have a readied action. The wizard uses his readied action to complete his turn, during this time it is the wizards turn so the sorcerer cannot make any actions except an immediate action. Casting a quickened spell is not an immediate action so cannot be done. After the wizard completes his action, it is too late to disrupt it with dispel magic because it already was cast. If the wizard had cast another spell instead that had a lingering effect the sorcerer could use his quickened dispel magic to bring that down. But he cannot stop the counter spell because it already happened.
In the second example the sorcerer cannot use a quickened spells to interrupt another character’s action that requires an immediate action. Once again, a quickened spell is a swift action, not an immediate action. Even though you can only perform either one swift or one immediate action in a turn they are not interchangeable. If an action uses a swift action, you cannot perform it as an immediate action. Since an immediate action can be used at any time you can perform it when you would normally perform a swift action.
In the second example the sorcerer cannot use a quickened spells to interrupt another character’s action that requires an immediate action. Once again, a quickened spell is a swift action, not an immediate action. Even though you can only perform either one swift or one immediate action in a turn they are not interchangeable. If an action uses a swift action, you cannot perform it as an immediate action. Since an immediate action can be used at any time you can perform it when you would normally perform a swift action.
I'm having difficulty understanding this. If it is the Sorcerer's turn, can they not use their Swift Action to respond against an immediate? Or is this another case of special initiative and timeline sequencing?
Example
It is the Sorcerer's turn and they cast Lightning Bolt at the Wizard (standard action).
The Wizard responds with an immediate action to create cover using Stone Shield (either while the Lightning Bolt spell is being cast or after it has been released and the line set).
Can the Sorcerer respond to the immediate casting of Stone Shield by using Quicken Dispel Magic? Why or why not?
I dont think the rule allows a character to start a standard action but perform other action in the middle of itI am of the same opinion, as it would further mess with the balance of action economy. However you referenced concentration rules, which unfortunately do not apply to quickened spells because their casting duration is less than one round.
From a logic and sequencing standpoint, I agree that it doesn't make sense to be able to cast any spell while you are already in the middle of trying to cast one. And as mentioned previously, most swift action spells are used to supplement or enhance other actions; that have yet to take place.
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area one spellcaster, creature, or object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You can use dispel magic to end one ongoing spell that has been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or to counter another spellcaster's spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can't be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells. The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.
Emphasis on the bold.
Because spells do not come into effect until after the casting is completed (the act of spellcasting is entirely separate from the spell effects that are created), is it accurate to surmise that a quickened Dispel Magic does not work against immediate action spells, because there is no effect to target and no timing window to utilize?
A turn is an abstraction that allows the game to work. It is the time where a character and only that character can act. There are two exceptions to this rule. The first is an immediate action that can be performed at any time. The second is the readied action where you have prepared an action to be performed when a defined trigger occurs.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
The bolded part states that the readied action interrupted the characters turn. That means during the time the readied action is being performed it is not the characters who was acting turn. After the readied action is completed the character that was acting turn resumes. In a way when you take a readied action you are suspending the current turn and completing your turn. Once you finish your turn it goes back to the turn of the person who was acting. So, when the wizard is using the readied action, it is his turn, not the sorcerers turn. But the only action he can perform is the readied action.
The same thing also applies to immediate actions.
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Yeah, it's not magic the gathering. There's no interrupts or instants. You can't act in reaction to someone else's action that interrupted your action.
If someone readied an action, the turn switches to their turn for their readied action, then back to your turn after they are done, and you can't cast a quickened spell on someone else's turn.
But all that aside, I think 2 lines from the magic chapter of the CRB answer this with a definite no:
"To cast a spell, you must concentrate."
and
"You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one."
So if you are in the middle of casting a spell, you cannot cast a second spell. You must either finish your first spell, or stop casting it (in which case the spell fails and is wasted).
Yeah, it's not magic the gathering. There's no interrupts or instants. You can't act in reaction to someone else's action that interrupted your action.
If someone readied an action, the turn switches to their turn for their readied action, then back to your turn after they are done, and you can't cast a quickened spell on someone else's turn.
But all that aside, I think 2 lines from the magic chapter of the CRB answer this with a definite no:
"To cast a spell, you must concentrate."
and
"You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one."
So if you are in the middle of casting a spell, you cannot cast a second spell. You must either finish your first spell, or stop casting it (in which case the spell fails and is wasted).
The latter quote is about maintaining a spell with duration of concentration, not casting a spell. So there is a little wiggle room for interpretation.