Daredevil, More like Swashbuckler 2.0


Daredevil Class Discussion


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't see the appeal of this outside of being a improvised weapon class. It has STR or DEX as KAS but no Medium Armor, only 8 Hit Points and a worse version of Ranger's Flurry Edge because it only works on Press actions. Look I get the idea of the class but could this entire class not be a Swashbuckler Style or Class Archetype? It doesn't even get bonus damage because it's form of extra damage is when slamming people into a prop, which is only d6s...Seriously a long-sword can do more at d8s.

What am I missing here with Daredevil here?


You aren't missing anything. This is a common sense of many here. The class lacks from its own mechanical personality. It's basically a swashbuckler without performative thematic that uses press instead of finishers.


Yes, it could be an expansion of Swashbuckler. It could also work as a Racket, Hunter's Edge, etc. which funnily enough could all work simultaneously by providing basic Adrenaline bonuses/abilities and access to a pool of Daredevil feats.
That or an Archetype, but that's frequently the case with playtests. Dare I say though that a Daredevil subsystem might work best. (no pun had been intended...)

Trouble is, reading the class's shoddy chassis, one hopes for more bells and whistles from the feats (which yes, the class does provide extra of), yet I don't think the feats pull it off (other than Caroming around for auto-damage). Compare to Monk or Fighter (also w/ no subclass) which both have a strong chassis and defining feats. And gain ample rewards without the advertised riskiness of the Daredevil.

Heck, maybe Daredevil needs subclasses for extra oomph, but I guess there might not be enough distinction.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Given that the "defining features" of the class are basically a level 1 Guardian Class feat (Punishing Shove being Str+2/6/12 is very close in damage progression to Stunt damage, especially since it can crit) and a worse MAP reduction than that of several other classes, I think that the main thing Daredevil needs is more/better class features.

The feats are nice enough, but what the class actually gets from its chassis is basically nothing.

Feats by themselves do not help in giving a class a unique feel, and that's why there are so many people seeing that Daredevil is a worse X/Y/Z, because there's nothing unique to him.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It does feels very much like a swashbuckler, especially with the lack of any subclasses. Risky/Adrenaline is almost identical to Bravado/Panache except for a slight timing difference, but not enough of one to make a real difference. This could be a Swashbuckler class archetype that slightly changes how panache is gained and shuffles around the reward for it, plus applying Finisher damage to forced movements, and... that covers everything? Am I missing anything?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
shroudb wrote:

Given that the "defining features" of the class are basically a level 1 Guardian Class feat (Punishing Shove being Str+2/6/12 is very close in damage progression to Stunt damage, especially since it can crit) and a worse MAP reduction than that of several other classes, I think that the main thing Daredevil needs is more/better class features.

The feats are nice enough, but what the class actually gets from its chassis is basically nothing.

Feats by themselves do not help in giving a class a unique feel, and that's why there are so many people seeing that Daredevil is a worse X/Y/Z, because there's nothing unique to him.

If the class is gonna have such a strong identity in Press actions, I genuinely think it should be able to use them when at 0 MAP. It would be a unique and powerful feature, and the class could revolve around it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I do think that mechanically, the class is distinct from the Swashbuckler and would be difficult to bring into the other class: the Daredevil from what I've been experiencing isn't actually about being flashy or finishing enemies, so much as pinballing around while inflicting as much chaos as they can. They're not at all elegant, they're actually quite chaotic and scrappy in a good way. Were it not for their flavoring, which for some reason makes them come across as more showy and performance-oriented than they ought to be, they'd probably escape most, though not necessarily all comparisons.

I do agree though that the class could use some significant improvements to their base statistics and features. This is probably a topic for another thread, but it feels like the Daredevil is missing key benefits, like the Titan Wrestler feat for free, and could do with improvements to their class features, including potentially even better MAP reduction. I'm actually starting to question their adrenaline mechanic as well, as I've been finding that it unnecessarily limits the Daredevil's order of actions when in practice they're already incentivized to use many risky actions due to their action compression and benefits.


Teridax wrote:

I do think that mechanically, the class is distinct from the Swashbuckler and would be difficult to bring into the other class: the Daredevil from what I've been experiencing isn't actually about being flashy or finishing enemies, so much as pinballing around while inflicting as much chaos as they can. They're not at all elegant, they're actually quite chaotic and scrappy in a good way. Were it not for their flavoring, which for some reason makes them come across as more showy and performance-oriented than they ought to be, they'd probably escape most, though not necessarily all comparisons.

Mmm, the swashbuckler already does a lot of things under the banner of 'flashy' - the main thing the Daredevil doesn't have is Finishers that stops panache, but the Swash that doesn't use finishers was already a build (largely from premaster days, if I recall, due to how much harder it was to maintain panache in those days) and I'm not sure the daredevil is colouring outside the lines mechanically so long as 'risky' (which is less risky than bravado for whatever reason) is their on switch.

Press actions (and wanting to be under MAP in general) would be a more compelling mechanical identity but as it is the daredevil is very swashbuckler-shaped mechanically. It's [do skill action] to [do better action] every turn.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

What if you could spend adrenaline to use press actions at MAP +0, but you don't lose adrenaline until you fail or critically fail a press check? This could probably need to change adrenaline so someone wouldn't be able to gain adrenaline again until the end of their next turn, so there would be risks.

Press actions would also need to have their own risks as well. The chance of being "permanently" at MAP +0 would otherwise be really OP.


Ryangwy wrote:

Mmm, the swashbuckler already does a lot of things under the banner of 'flashy' - the main thing the Daredevil doesn't have is Finishers that stops panache, but the Swash that doesn't use finishers was already a build (largely from premaster days, if I recall, due to how much harder it was to maintain panache in those days) and I'm not sure the daredevil is colouring outside the lines mechanically so long as 'risky' (which is less risky than bravado for whatever reason) is their on switch.

Press actions (and wanting to be under MAP in general) would be a more compelling mechanical identity but as it is the daredevil is very swashbuckler-shaped mechanically. It's [do skill action] to [do better action] every turn.

The point I was making was that the Daredevil isn't all that flashy in practice whereas the Swashbuckler is, despite the similar flavoring at times. I do agree with you that adrenaline isn't helping either, because it generates the gameplay loop you've mentioned on a class that is already very situationally constrained as-is, and doesn't need not-panache on top. I'd rather remove that in favor of having the Daredevil make as many maneuvers as they can every turn, MAP be damned, and I think exequiel759 has an interesting idea with letting the class use adrenaline to negate MAP on press actions.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Risks and Rewards Class Playtest / Daredevil Class Discussion / Daredevil, More like Swashbuckler 2.0 All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.