Perhaps Daredevil Should Borrow From More Classes?

[moosher12]

Daredevil is certainly having a hard time beating the allegations of being very Swashbuckler like. Normally, I don't think this is a problem, as I like hybrid classes. I like the Slayer, for example, because it feels like it takes aspects from Investigator, Ranger, and Thaumaturge, and puts them together in a way that would be desirable, but quite cumbersome through the class plus archetype system.

I'm seeing the daredevil, and I'm seeing two things. A scrapper, and a stuntsman. And I'm trying to think, perhaps what Daredevil needs is to flex its identity toward another class, a bit farther away from the show-off duelist that is the swashbuckler.

So far, I see two ways we can flex it. The first is as a scrappy punk. We see this with its use of improvised weapons. An inspiration point here, then, could be the rogue. What if a Daredevil could also use its less threatening maneuvers to setup for a variant sneak attack? Where the point of the sneak attack is that you disorient them with your stunt, and then use the disorientation to get extra damage, instead of solely adding damage to maneuvers. This then makes maneuvers part of the tool box, but not the sole method, and would put the daredevil in a hybrid space between the swashbuckler and the rogue, rather than showing so much similarity to the swashbuckler.

Another point of potential shift, is potentially making it a vehicle class. Stunt Driver is an iconic media archetype. And Daredevil exemplifies such easily. More expansion on the stunt driver theme would allow it to better have a seperate identity that's not quite covered by anything but the Trick Driver archetype, perhaps taking some of the Trick Drivers abilities, and baking it into the class. It was jokingly said in the stream that the daredevil had skates, but what if the daredevil actually had a path to get a weaponized personal vehicle like roller skates, a skateboard, a bicycle, or a scooter, that it could simultaneously do stunts with and use as a weapon? Small vehicles that can be used in dungeon-scale, and then the same bonuses can be applied when the campaign allows them to use a more proper vehicle.

Brawler is often also described for the Daredevil, but the 1E brawler had lethal melee on top of combat feats, being a hybrid between the monk and fighter, so perhaps a daredevil might have an easy path to lethal unarmed strikes without having to archetype into the monk dedication.

What are other ways we can extend Daredevil into its own unique identity? While keeping the theme of daredevil, where it can still share aspects with the Swashbuckler, but is hybridized into a unique and satisfactory niche?

[exequiel759]

I feel people compare the daredevil to the swashbuckler the most because, well, daredevil is a synonym of swashbuckler and half its features feel synonymous with swashbuckler features as well (adrenaline with panache, audacious combatant with a mix of Combination Finisher and Agile Maneuvers, Propelling Strides with Vivacious Speed, and Stunt Damage with a mix of finishers with Punishing Shove). I think fixing this by making the class more unique is more important than choosing another class and steal from it. Avoid making the daredevil a frankenstein class is IMO the priority here.

I think the flavor of the class and how its represented through mechanics needs a second pass. Adrenaline doesn't feel...adrenaline-y?, risky actions don't feel risky, the class is described as somewhat of tank or at least as someone that is used to taking damage yet it only has 8 + Con HP, etc.

However, I think in its core the class has a ton of potential. A martial that focuses on Athletics maneuvers is a niche that isn't covered by any class, and while there's archetypes like wrestler, those don't really allow you to deal damage while doing those maneuvers (or rather, the damage they can deal is negligible). Press is also a mechanic that makes sense for such a class, because if the game expects you to start an encounter with a grapple, trip, or shove, that means your regular attacks will have MAP, so press actions feels like something a class like this should have in its kit. I think we should focus on this, rather than to take from other classes.

[Teridax]

I agree with exequiel759 that the class could stand to borrow less from other classes, not more. The Slayer cribbing from the Thaumaturge I don't think has helped them escape the comparisons to the Ranger, either.

As mentioned in the above comment, part of the comparisons come from the name and theming, but a large part comes I think from adrenaline, which is superficially similar to panache yet I don't think is really serving the class well at all. There's a really cool idea there of a class who wants to take risks and do dangerous things, but I personally don't think combining bits of the Flurry Ranger with a variant of the Swashbuckler achieves that, so much as just constrains what is already a very situation-dependent class. I'd be happy to see that mechanic taken out entirely in favor of going all-in on action compression, mobility (including even more Tumbling Through), and making lots of Athletics maneuvers on the same turn, which I think would lean into what makes them unique and distinguish them further from the Swashbuckler.