If I have a caster standing in a dispelling globe and an enemy tosses a fireball or ignition against him, it is likely to get dispelled.
But what if the caster inside the globe steps outside of it, while keeping it in between him and his foe. Does his foe have line of effect? Does he still need to contend with the counterspell effect? Does fireball simply work since, unlike previous editions, there is no magical bead streaking across the intervening space? What if the enemy attempted something like stupefy?
Do spells that simply emerge or target directly still need to contend with obstacles, barriers, and line of effect / line of sight?
Are you trying to block a fireball or a firearm bullet with a glass window pane again?
Are you trying to block a fireball or a firearm bullet with a glass window pane again?
As someone who only had hair and a little bit of skin burn when a fireball exploded around me, but kept my eyes from damage from a pair of safety glasses, I would think a pain of glass would probably protect from fireball.
It is a little weird that if there was a small hole drilled in the glass a caster would suddenly have line of effect that they didn’t have before and the fireball could blow up in the room.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IIRC they say it has to be a decent size hole, at least a few inches (I’d say it should probably depend on how far the caster is from it?)
I recall the hole needing to be at least a foot across.
Would that mean a chicken wire fence blocks line of effect?
*Shrugs*
I've often wondered that myself.
Not to be that guy but Fireball dont have a projectile or hints at a projectile in Pf2
"A roaring blast of fire detonates at a spot you designate"
so you just point and that point explodes.
But that dont change anything about LoE
And as others have said Dispelling globe only cares about "whose area or targets enter into it" so even with a projectile it would not matter
Are you trying to block a fireball or a firearm bullet with a glass window pane again?As someone who only had hair and a little bit of skin burn when a fireball exploded around me, but kept my eyes from damage from a pair of safety glasses, I would think a pain of glass would probably protect from fireball.
That wasn't the old argument.
There wasn't much debate about whether the fireball effect would go from the origin point of the burst to a location on the opposite side of a Wall of Force or a pane of glass. That is rather explicit in the Line of Effect rules, which even uses Fireball as the example.
The question is if you could target the Fireball's origin point on the opposite side of the transparent barrier because you only need line of sight to target the origin point of the burst.
Targeting the origin point of Fireball on the opposite side of Dispelling Globe would run into a similar question.
The question is if you could target the Fireball's origin point on the opposite side of the transparent barrier because you only need line of sight to target the origin point of the burst.Well, maybe I misunderstand something, but Line of Effect: "You usually need an unobstructed path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an area, or the place where you create something with a spell."
I don't really see any question here, it was always like this.
Most people don't read it as pedantically as I do. So I am generally in the minority on this.
To fully spell out the argument:
Targeting only requires being able to see the target - you need a visual Line of Effect.
The target must be within the spell's range, and you must be able to see it (or otherwise perceive it with a precise sense) to target it.
Line of Effect requires an unobstructed line to the target.
When creating an effect, you usually need an unblocked path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an effect's area, or the place where you create something with a spell or other ability. This is called a line of effect.
A transparent barrier such as Wall of Force, a pane of glass, or the spell effect of Dispelling Globe does not obstruct a visual Line of Effect (often called 'Line of Sight').
The open question is if you need more than a visual Line of Effect to target the origin point of Fireball when casting. So far I have not found anywhere in the rules that states that you do.
Do you need a 'magical' Line of Effect to the origin point in order to cast Fireball at that location? Or a 'fire' Line of Effect? If so, what does and does not obstruct those Line of Effects?
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Unblocked refers to the normal meaning of “blocked,” can I walk through it or put my fist through it? It is not a restatement of line of sight. Glass, walls of force, and maybe a sheet of transparent gauze (ask your GM) block line of effect but not line of sight.
Unblocked refers to the normal meaning of “blocked,” can I walk through it or put my fist through it? It is not a restatement of line of sight. Glass, walls of force, and maybe a sheet of transparent gauze (ask your GM) block line of effect but not line of sight.
And how does Wall of Water match up with that line of normal meaning?
You can walk through it (well, swim technically). You can put you fist through it (does not block melee attacks).
But it does block line of effect for bludgeoning and slashing projectiles. And arguably a 'fire' Line of Effect.
With wall of water the question would be whether whatever takes the fireball from you to the target point can be snuffed by water.
If there even is anything that “travels” like that.
I don’t think we have any rules or lore for this but fireball can’t detonate early by “hitting” the wrong thing, so I’d say water doesn’t block it and whatever’s traveling (if anything is) doesn’t care about water, doesn’t matter that the spell itself is fire.
The open question is if you need more than a visual Line of Effect to target the origin point of Fireball when casting. So far I have not found anywhere in the rules that states that you do.
Do you need a 'magical' Line of Effect to the origin point in order to cast Fireball at that location? Or a 'fire' Line of Effect? If so, what does and does not obstruct those Line of Effects?
Imo it's actually pretty clear, but only if you remember that there never was a need for a wall-like solid sheet barrier to mess with spell targeting/casting.
The globe example would create a shadow behind it where you do not have line of effect needed to make a fireball explode there.
If one ruled that was possible, then it would also be ruling that you can curve around corners so long as you had vision (such as by any of the "use __'s senses" abilities).
That's clearly not allowed, and it never was because of maybe-obscured vision.
It's because line of effect requires a rather straight line by default, doesn't matter what the obstruction looks like, that obstruction creates an unusable zone behind it.
Although, I have been waiting for a spell that allows for 'curving the shot' like that. All it would take is for the spell to put it's abnormal LoE difference into text.
It's kinda ridiculous that such a feature is so rare, as it makes for such a good non-damage apples oranges difference.
Right now, they kinda accidentally made that doable when range + line/cone spells became a thing / made more common.
For that specific targeting setup, you only need the straight line of effect upon the AoE starting location, and can then paint the line around a corner, etc.
But as I don't think these have any negative tradeoffs to get that corner-curving, they kinda just power crept all other comparable spells. Ugh.
I'd argue that in order to put a spell behind it would invoke the same counteract as attempting to put a spell inside it.
Again, unless you allow spell curving for everything, the line of magic of the spell cast is otherwise to need to cross the threshold and enter the globe.
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I'd argue that in order to put a spell behind it would invoke the same counteract as attempting to put a spell inside it.
Again, unless you allow spell curving for everything, the line of magic of the spell cast is otherwise to need to cross the threshold and enter the globe.
"You create an immobile globe around yourself. It attempts to counteract any spell from outside the globe whose area or targets enter into it, as if the globe were a dispel magic spell 1 rank lower than its actual spell rank. If the counteract attempt succeeds, it prevents only the portion of the spell that would have entered the globe (so if the spell also has targets outside the globe, or part of its area is beyond the globe, those targets or that area are affected normally). You must form the sphere in an unbroken open space, so its edges don't pass through any creatures or objects, or the spell is lost (though creatures can enter the globe after the spell is cast)."
The globe only counteracts any spell whose area or targets enters the sphere, and it only counteracts the portion of the area or the targets who are within the sphere. So if you cast a Fireball on the other other side, it only counteracts the area that overlaps with the globe. If the fireball is cast on the far side and doesn't overlap, there's nothing to counteract.
You can even place the center of a fireball within the sphere, and hope for the counteract to turn it into a ring of fire damage instead.
Ugh, let's put the unique spell of dispelling globe to the side.
If there's a sphere of glass, imo the rules are very clear on it creating a "shadow" behind it where you do not have line of effect, and cannot target.
It's not about sight.
As for the "assumption" about magic in Golarion needing a straight line like that, rules are not an assumption. For PCs, that's how magic works.
I very much agree that in pathfinder fiction, magic shouldn't have such a hard rule like that, but let's try to first get to an answer for this post in the rules thread.
To restate, I do claim that the rules have enough instruction to conclude that magic originates at the PC, and needs to travel along the line of effect to the point where it's evoked as a spell effect.
If that line of effect requires the magic to pass through some sort of anti-magic, I'd argue that the anti-magic would still trigger even if spell has not been finished / evoked at that time.
Rephrased: there is a need for an *unbroken* line of effect from PC to target point, you don't get to skip / bypass any portion of the LoE that would be invalid as a final targeting point.
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If yall want a *real* mess of spell rules, try to think about what restrictions / requirements exist for using Sustain upon a spell effect.
Afaik, none. Last I checked, I never found a rule that would prevent someone from starting a sustain spell, teleporting/burrowing away, and Sustaining it until the foes are dead. No need for line of effect, etc. The foe has to escape, dispel, or endure the magic.
I'd argue that to magic, anti-magic very much counts as a solid wall.
For Dispelling Globe, there is no restriction on the anti-magic that would allow some sort of pass-through.
You create an immobile globe around yourself. It attempts to counteract any spell from outside the globe whose area or targets enter into it, as if the globe were a dispel magic spell 1 rank lower than its actual spell rank. If the counteract attempt succeeds, it prevents only the portion of the spell that would have entered the globe (so if the spell also has targets outside the globe, or part of its area is beyond the globe, those targets or that area are affected normally). You must form the sphere in an unbroken open space, so its edges don't pass through any creatures or objects, or the spell is lost (though creatures can enter the globe after the spell is cast).
There is no text indicating any sort of mechanic where a line AoE is allowed to resume after hitting the globe. The globe is not a ghostly blind spot, it's a static sphere of counteracting anti-magic. As such, I'd rule that the globe ends a line AoE as if it were a solid wall.
By default, bursts start from an origin point and have to travel outward; bursts explicitly need LoE from the exact target point to then expand radially. Without that rule, fireball explosions would ghost through walls unimpeded.
So if you detonate a burst fireball right in front of the globe, you'll get a big shadow as the globe blocks the AoE.
Not a 'ring of fire.'
And no, you cannot detonate a fireball inside the globe, as that portion being dispelled is all of it.
Because we know that you cannot curve the LoE around the obstruction, I'd argue that no, you cannot cast/detonate a fireball behind the globe without beating the anti-magic's counteract.
To make the fireball detonate behind the globe, that magic would travel along the LoE, in and then out of the globe, still triggering the counteract.
I'd argue that to magic, anti-magic very much counts as a solid wall.
For Dispelling Globe, there is no restriction on the anti-magic that would allow some sort of pass-through.
You create an immobile globe around yourself. It attempts to counteract any spell from outside the globe whose area or targets enter into it, as if the globe were a dispel magic spell 1 rank lower than its actual spell rank. If the counteract attempt succeeds, it prevents only the portion of the spell that would have entered the globe (so if the spell also has targets outside the globe, or part of its area is beyond the globe, those targets or that area are affected normally). You must form the sphere in an unbroken open space, so its edges don't pass through any creatures or objects, or the spell is lost (though creatures can enter the globe after the spell is cast).There is no text indicating any sort of mechanic where a line AoE is allowed to resume after hitting the globe. The globe is not a ghostly blind spot, it's a static sphere of counteracting anti-magic. As such, I'd rule that the globe ends a line AoE as if it were a solid wall.
By default, bursts start from an origin point and have to travel outward; bursts explicitly need LoE from the exact target point to then expand radially. Without that rule, fireball explosions would ghost through walls unimpeded.
So if you detonate a burst fireball right in front of the globe, you'll get a big shadow as the globe blocks the AoE.
Not a 'ring of fire.'And no, you cannot detonate a fireball inside the globe, as that portion being dispelled is all of it.
Because we know that you cannot curve the LoE around the obstruction, I'd argue that no, you cannot cast/detonate a fireball behind the globe without beating the anti-magic's counteract.
To make the fireball detonate behind the globe, that magic would travel along the LoE, in and then out of the globe, still triggering the counteract.
"so if (...) part of its area is beyond the globe, (...) that area (is) affected normally"
So the part of the lightning bolt or fireball is beyond the globe affects that area as normal, i.e. does damage. It even uses the word "beyond", so I don't think you interpret that to only mean the close side.
I don't think "the portion of the spell that entered the globe" is meant to be taken as a magical spell-packet moving through the air; I think that's language covering both area and multi-target.
You keep mentioning antimagic, but I don't think it's actually antimagic? That would be Antimagic Field, and even that allows having spells move across it.
So if my character is 10 feet away from an active dispelling globe and casts lightning bolt directly through the middle of it, does any lightning come out of the back of the globe? Why or why not?
So if my character is 10 feet away from an active dispelling globe and casts lightning bolt directly through the middle of it, does any lightning come out of the back of the globe? Why or why not?Yes. There's nothing physical blocking LoE.
Globe straight up says that only the part of the area that's inside the globe is surpressed. So the line after the globe continues normally.
Sounds clear cut for area effects. What about non-area effects, such as a ray or other magical projectile?
Sounds clear cut for area effects. What about non-area effects, such as a ray or other magical projectile?So if my character is 10 feet away from an active dispelling globe and casts lightning bolt directly through the middle of it, does any lightning come out of the back of the globe? Why or why not?Yes. There's nothing physical blocking LoE.
Globe straight up says that only the part of the area that's inside the globe is surpressed. So the line after the globe continues normally.
Also clear-cut. If the target isn't in the globe, you can target them normally without interference, even if they're on the other side.